I was thinking of introducing my players to Mystara though my only experience with it is the capcom game shadows of mystara and binging on mr. welch's videos. Any recommended introductory module?
Also I was strongly considering either old school essentials ruleset or castles and crusades but i'm open to suggestions here. Just did not want to do 5e
I always started my players in Karameikos because we'd built so much history over the years the players could go to taverns they knew, see various merchants for good deals, knew who the local crime lords were etc.
The BECMI game (or one of the clones) might scratch the itch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y9PzKS5/karameikos-8-1-834x1024.png)
As for modules the B series to start them off but go with B1 instead of B2 as the Keep on the Borderlands can be unforgiving. That said it's like, four decades or so since I ran it so my memory may be foggy.
Quote from: APN on December 15, 2021, 06:55:02 PM
I always started my players in Karameikos because we'd built so much history over the years the players could go to taverns they knew, see various merchants for good deals, knew who the local crime lords were etc.
The BECMI game (or one of the clones) might scratch the itch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y9PzKS5/karameikos-8-1-834x1024.png)
As for modules the B series to start them off but go with B1 instead of B2 as the Keep on the Borderlands can be unforgiving. That said it's like, four decades or so since I ran it so my memory may be foggy.
Old school essentials is b/x, though i might be inclined to use the rules cyclopedia which i have...somewhere in pdf. My understanding is that b/x and RC are basically the same except RC stretched out class progression over like 30 something levels
Isn't B/X a clone of Moldvay/Cook and the RC takes the rules from the Mentzer revision? That's my understanding but I'm not an expert on which clone covers what these days.
Dark Dungeons is free (as far as I know) in PDF and at cost to print but there's so many clones out there I could dig up a list and it would probably be out of date.
I started with Moldvay whenever that was and when Mentzer (BECMI) came about that and AD&D (1e) more or less battled for the affections of the players for a fair while. My favoured game was BECMI but when we got a player character to Immortal status we soon stopped play as it seemed they'd 'won' and more fun to start afresh. Took years as well to get there.
B4 The Lost City is the best Basic starter module. It's only loosely Mystaran, though. It's completely stand alone, just a weird lost/buried world setting that could fit into any campaign. B2 Keep on the Borderlands is good, but again nothing specifically Mystaran, and it needs to be run (and played) correctly.
Another alternative is to get the BECMI Expert Rulebook. There's a map of a starting town (Threshold, in Karameikos), and another page of with set of plot seeds that can kick off a campaign. But it's a tiny part of the book. You'd be buying the PDF for about 2 pages of content.
The iconic Known World/Mystara modules that are really hooked into the setting just aren't for 1st level characters. B10 is one of the best and well integrated into the setting, but it's a Basic/Expert transition module. The others are mostly Expert level, like X1 Isle of Dread or X2 Castle Amber.
In any case, here's a good resource. (Free) re-creations of all the maps in all the modules and supplements, and then some:
http://mystara.thorf.co.uk/
Quote from: APN on December 15, 2021, 07:20:30 PM
Isn't B/X a clone of Moldvay/Cook and the RC takes the rules from the Mentzer revision? That's my understanding but I'm not an expert on which clone covers what these days.
Dark Dungeons is free (as far as I know) in PDF and at cost to print but there's so many clones out there I could dig up a list and it would probably be out of date.
I started with Moldvay whenever that was and when Mentzer (BECMI) came about that and AD&D (1e) more or less battled for the affections of the players for a fair while. My favoured game was BECMI but when we got a player character to Immortal status we soon stopped play as it seemed they'd 'won' and more fun to start afresh. Took years as well to get there.
B/X is the Moldvay/Cook/Marsh edition of D&D. Two box sets, Basic and Expert.
BECMI is the Mentzer version. Expands the two box sets to five, adding in the higher level Companion, Masters, and Immortals sets.
The Rules Cyclopedia is basically a compilation of the first 4 BECMI box sets.
There are differences between them all, but they're fundamentally all the same basic rule set. I think the best set of rules is B/X, which is tightly written. BECMI greatly expanded the rules, but some of the rules aren't that popular, and the attempt to standardize things over 36 levels led to subtle but important changes in things like level-based progressions or demihuman weapon lists (both bad) and fighter combat options (good). The Rules Cyclopedia introduced some editing gaffes. But overall, the biggest difference is presentation. B/X presents the rules in a very clear fashion, is aimed at new players, and the two box approach means players can learn the rules in bite-site pieces, but it isn't a tutorial. BECMI's Basic set is intended as a tutorial for players who never played before, and the later box sets add domain level play (the Companion set is amazing) and a weird cosmology. The main fault and virtue of the RC is that it's all-in-one, which means you have everything at your fingertips in a convenient package, but it's a lot rougher to learn the game since it's all thrown together.
Glenn Welsh has designed the Mystara Player's Handbook for 5e.
http://glen.stelio.net/
Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 15, 2021, 07:44:25 PM
Glenn Welsh has designed the Mystara Player's Handbook for 5e.
http://glen.stelio.net/
Yeah i have it, great work but just in general i dont play 5e. Every time i look at wotc i am reminded as to why
Purple Assholes aka The Veiled Society is one of my long time favorite modules. It's a good introduction to Specularum, and opens the doors early on to potential intrigue in the campaign. At the very least, even if you don't want to go that route, this can be an introductory adventure to that connects the party with a patron.
The Gazetteer series for Mystara is pretty good overall if you're looking to do B/X and want the detailed setting. As others have noted, I'd recommend starting with the Karameikos one. Not sure if there's a POD out there as I have all my originals for the whole damn series. The last two B modules, B11-12 can work there (Karameikos) if you don't want to use tired old B1-B2. B6 is okay if you like urban intrigue. B10 is definitely set in Karameikos and it's solid, though a bit of a railroad in my opinion. The X series of modules were more explicitly tied to Mystara and several are quite good. If you can find them on ebay or somewhere, the Poor Wizard's Almanacs have a ton of setting info on Mystara. One of the forums (Vaults of Pandius) has some pretty good fan-made gazetteers too.
And OSE, the Rules Compendium, or Dark Dungeons all work fine if you don't have the old B/X books. For me, Mystara needs to be B/X or BECMI. Any other systems just feel wrong.
Quote from: Persimmon on December 16, 2021, 12:01:47 AM
The Gazetteer series for Mystara is pretty good overall if you're looking to do B/X and want the detailed setting. As others have noted, I'd recommend starting with the Karameikos one. Not sure if there's a POD out there ...
Currently $7.50 for POD + PDF:
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/16974/GAZ1-The-Grand-Duchy-of-Karameikos-Basic
No, that's not the normal price for a Gazetteer. But the print + electronic version of Alfheim is also under $10.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/16997/GAZ5-The-Elves-of-Alfheim-Basic
Just saw Pat's post. Those are a steal at that price. And if you want the free fan-made ones for the northern lands, see here:
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=192
Mystara is possibly my favorite official setting; certainly up there with Greyhawk and far better than Forgotten Realms in my opinion. But if Mr. Welch sent you, you don't need any more conversion to the greatness of Mystara :)
GAZ1 Grand Duchy of Karameikos is the obvious starting point for Mystara. Choose a starter town & plunk down a starter dungeon nearby, then go from there.
If you have inexperienced players grab King's Festival which is a master class in intro adventures. If they have played before Veiled Society is a refreshing break from dungeon crawls. Horror on the Hill or Rahasia are good low level modules for people that want a challenge.
Quote from: TheGlen on December 16, 2021, 07:16:35 AM
If you have inexperienced players grab King's Festival which is a master class in intro adventures. If they have played before Veiled Society is a refreshing break from dungeon crawls. Horror on the Hill or Rahasia are good low level modules for people that want a challenge.
Good advice. I wouldn't recommend Horror on the Hill until PCs are 2nd-3rd level though. Rahasia is tough but playable at 1st.
Mystara is my favorite " haven't really played in it as much as I want" setting. So much flavor. So much inspiration.
If you're going to go the B module route, go ahead and get the individual modules and the B1-9. There are complaints that B1-9 cut things out (true,) but it gives some loose adventure path info as well.
If going the x module route, X4 and X5 can't be beat. If going X1, you can steal from the Dungeon Mag adventures as well.
Quote from: TheGlen on December 16, 2021, 07:16:35 AM
If you have inexperienced players grab King's Festival which is a master class in intro adventures. If they have played before Veiled Society is a refreshing break from dungeon crawls. Horror on the Hill or Rahasia are good low level modules for people that want a challenge.
We haven't done a whole lot of dungeons so King's Festival sounds alot like what i'm looking for. Takes place in Karameikos so it's actually tied in with the world. I wanted to lead into Isle of Dread or some of the other expert modules. At least until i get a good enough feel for how to create adventures here that are more than just funhouse dungeons. Having flashbacks to running White Plume Mountain, a fun challenging dungeon but really has no reason to exist. The antagonists motivation seems to be just boredom.
A dungeon adventure like that i'm more inclined to just run as a standalone challenge than actually incorporate into a campaign.
Quote from: Ocule on December 16, 2021, 05:41:53 PM
Quote from: TheGlen on December 16, 2021, 07:16:35 AM
If you have inexperienced players grab King's Festival which is a master class in intro adventures. If they have played before Veiled Society is a refreshing break from dungeon crawls. Horror on the Hill or Rahasia are good low level modules for people that want a challenge.
We haven't done a whole lot of dungeons so King's Festival sounds alot like what i'm looking for. Takes place in Karameikos so it's actually tied in with the world. I wanted to lead into Isle of Dread or some of the other expert modules. At least until i get a good enough feel for how to create adventures here that are more than just funhouse dungeons. Having flashbacks to running White Plume Mountain, a fun challenging dungeon but really has no reason to exist. The antagonists motivation seems to be just boredom.
A dungeon adventure like that i'm more inclined to just run as a standalone challenge than actually incorporate into a campaign.
Sounds like a good plan. If you really wanted to do a Karameikos campaign that wasn't mere dungeon crawls and gives some flavor to the setting, I'd suggest grabbing the gazetteer to help with character creation and background, then run B11: King's Festival, B12 Queen's Harvest, and B10 Night's Dark Terror, in that order. The surviving PCs should be just about ready for Isle of Dread at that point. And for later, the Desert Nomads modules (X4-5) kick ass. I'm also rather fond of X3: Curse of Xanathon. Unlike many, I'm not that enamored with Castle Amber. X13 Crown of Ancient Glory is a cool way to introduce domain play, but that's a long ways away....
B11: King's Festival, B12 Queen's Harvest - I would caution that like most of the later B-series, these are not particularly brilliant adventures. On this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_modules#B
I'd say the good stuff is B1-B7, plus B10 (which is a B-E transition module).
Quote from: S'mon on December 17, 2021, 05:24:13 AM
B11: King's Festival, B12 Queen's Harvest - I would caution that like most of the later B-series, these are not particularly brilliant adventures. On this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_modules#B
I'd say the good stuff is B1-B7, plus B10 (which is a B-E transition module).
The BSOLO module is also not bad and plays rather well when converted to be run by a DM.
Ahhh... Mystara... has a charm all its own...
All my earliest campaigns were set there, with only the map in the back of the Expert rulebook and a few tibits of info from the modules i had.
Like others here i'd recommend the Gazetteer supplements (the Grand Duchy of Karemekos is a good starting point and it's fairly cheap to acquire),
i'd never gotten to use them but i've read through them since picking them up and hopefully someday i'll get to actually use them.
For Modules, some of the best early modules were set there, B1/B2 are excellent starting points, and they pair together well, though i just ran B1 a few
months back to start off an AD&D campaign and you DO have to put in quite a lot of work to make that module work. But after that, B2-Castle Amber and X2-Curse of Xanathon were two of my favorites. B4-The Lost City is really good as well, but it almost cries out to be made into the focus of a whole
campaign, as there is so much in it just waiting to be fleshed out. Though after about 1984-85 the quality of the B-Series modules falls off pretty sharply.
Should i use rules cyclopedia or castles and crusades for this?
Do you own either/both of those sets? With the RC there's zero conversion. But C&C conversion is pretty easy too. And low level stuff in particular is easy to convert on the fly. Depends on you and your players' preferences methinks.
Yeah I own both sets, though for C&C i have physical copies. I dont know how many people know this but things like RC, B/X and such were all licensed to be archived so you can get them from archive.org and far as i know it's legal. I'd love to have a physical copy though
Quote from: Ocule on December 19, 2021, 05:47:40 PM
Should i use rules cyclopedia or castles and crusades for this?
I'd start with Mentzer Basic & Expert then go to RC later taking the bits you like. RC has a lot of bloat and is not a great intro for new players.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/116578/DD-Basic-Set--Players-Manual-BECMI-ed-Basic
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/116581/Dungeons--Dragons-Expert-Set-Rulebook-BECMI-ed-Basic?src=also_purchased
Oh I should mention I may have as few as two players at any given time
I would get the RC, all the Gazetteers, the Hollow World, and the Dawn of the Emperor's boxed set, asking with the poor wizards almanacs. Might as well go all in...
Quote from: Ocule on December 20, 2021, 02:48:17 PM
Oh I should mention I may have as few as two players at any given time
If you're playing B/X, running 2-3 PCs per player is easy enough so I wouldn't fret about that. The majority of my gaming experiences have involved fewer than 4 players with most players running multiple PCs. In fact I've never played in a long-running campaign where everyone ran just a single PC.
Late to this.
Personally I love Karameikos/Known World, and in general dislike Mystara. Take note that in a way the two are different settings.
Karameikos is very bare bones and leaves kist about everything to the DM and players to flesh out past the basic paragraph given to various kingdoms.
Mystara tries to fill in every damn hex and theres just no room for anything then. This was a problem with other TSR products around that time too. Forgotten Realms comes to mind. Even Greyhawk and Star Frontiers got hit with it at some point.
That said, the Gazeteers are a great resource. And if you can find them, look up the Creature Crucible books.
I was looking at the free 5e Mystara Player's Guide yesterday - https://www.rpgmp3.com/mystara-players-guide/ - it is extremely awesome and definitely makes for a nice place to start, whether or not you play 5e D&D. Despite the name it is very much Known World focused.
Quote from: 3catcircus on December 20, 2021, 03:19:28 PM
I would get the RC, all the Gazetteers, the Hollow World, and the Dawn of the Emperor's boxed set, asking with the poor wizards almanacs. Might as well go all in...
Hear, hear! Even if you don't use Mystara, I find the nation Gazetteers are fantastic resources for any fantasy setting. Eg the Ethengar GAZ is a brilliant Mongols-type sourcebook, far better than the 2e FR The Horde boxed set that came out at nearly the same time. Elves of Alfheim is great for fleshing out a functional Elven nation/homeland in your campaign. Rockhome for Dwarves. Northern Reaches for vikings. Emperors for Romans, and for a vaguely Atlantis-themed Magocracy.
Quote from: S'mon on December 28, 2021, 05:52:33 AM
Quote from: 3catcircus on December 20, 2021, 03:19:28 PM
I would get the RC, all the Gazetteers, the Hollow World, and the Dawn of the Emperor's boxed set, asking with the poor wizards almanacs. Might as well go all in...
Hear, hear! Even if you don't use Mystara, I find the nation Gazetteers are fantastic resources for any fantasy setting. Eg the Ethengar GAZ is a brilliant Mongols-type sourcebook, far better than the 2e FR The Horde boxed set that came out at nearly the same time. Elves of Alfheim is great for fleshing out a functional Elven nation/homeland in your campaign. Rockhome for Dwarves. Northern Reaches for vikings. Emperors for Romans, and for a vaguely Atlantis-themed Magocracy.
Completely true statement. Many of the cities and locales in my homebrew setting are cribbed from the Mystara gazetteers. Some cool maps, interesting scenarios, etc. And they often have war machine stats if you wanted to do mass combat on the fly.
I am using the GAZ series and the new printing of the C&C core set. It plays well together.
I don't like the free 5E book at all, and the B/X books would be what I used if I wasn't converting to C&C. I tried AD&D 2E Karameikos at first, but find that I like C&C better.
Quote from: Dropbear on December 28, 2021, 10:53:27 AM
I am using the GAZ series and the new printing of the C&C core set. It plays well together.
I don't like the free 5E book at all, and the B/X books would be what I used if I wasn't converting to C&C. I tried AD&D 2E Karameikos at first, but find that I like C&C better.
The C&C Mass Combat from the CKG is pretty straightforward so you could easily play some of those war scenarios in the gazetteers within your C&C campaign, if that's something you're up for. I'm going to try out those rules in an upcoming campaign.
Quote from: Omega on December 28, 2021, 05:29:38 AM
Late to this.
Personally I love Karameikos/Known World, and in general dislike Mystara. Take note that in a way the two are different settings.
Karameikos is very bare bones and leaves kist about everything to the DM and players to flesh out past the basic paragraph given to various kingdoms.
Mystara tries to fill in every damn hex and theres just no room for anything then. This was a problem with other TSR products around that time too. Forgotten Realms comes to mind. Even Greyhawk and Star Frontiers got hit with it at some point.
That said, the Gazeteers are a great resource. And if you can find them, look up the Creature Crucible books.
I have a similar reaction to the Forgotten Realms. I think both settings are better when you start with the original sketchy outline (X1 era/pre-gray box), and flesh it out yourself. Treat all the later material as a box of goodies you can steal from, but don't feel compelled to fit everything (or anything!) in, steal from other sources as well, make up your own shit, and then put all that stuff wherever and whenever you want. Make the world yours. It's so much easier to run a world where you don't have to carefully fit everything new into a complex and established canon, and where anything undefined or off the map can be improvised or reimagined in whatever way makes the most sense at the time. It's hard work to play in someone else's playground, and so much easier (and so much more fun) to play in a world you created organically in response to the players.
Of course it doesn't work if your players are already invested in the canon, because it's effectively impossible to rewire people's pre-existing expectations. But in that case, just create your own world, and then add in whatever elements from the Known World or the Forgotten Realms you feel like stealing.