At one point, Mike Mearls was working on a D20 superhero game with a very unfortunate name (I believe it was D20 Spectaculars); I have since heard the rumour that this game was sunk.
What happened?
And more importantly, is this Wizards admitting that D20 doesn't do superheros well; or is it Wizards realizing that RPGs can't seem to do superheros well period?
RPGPundit
I disagree - RPGs can do superheroes well, but you've got to dip deep into the realm of abstraction for a system that accurately captures the world of comic books. The powers and biff bang action isn't actually the most important part of a comic - it's the characters and ongoing story arc. By abstracting the mechanical aspects into narrative devices rather than A+B=effects formulas, you can better keep the focus on the story.
Matt (WereSwine).
Quote from: RPGPunditAnd more importantly, is this Wizards admitting that D20 doesn't do superheros well; or is it Wizards realizing that RPGs can't seem to do superheros well period?
I think it has more to do with WotC cutting back on d20M releases, though I'm not sure why
Spectaculars got bumped and
Dark * Matter didn't. I'd venture a guess that the latter is a) more unique and 2) more in keeping with the d20M line as a whole, but that's just me making shit up.
Perhaps they thought that it would be tough to get market share given that M&M has an established presence as a D&D supers game.
I don't see WotC doing a generic superhero game that's not a D20M supplement. If they'd do anything like that, it would be a licensed game. The giant of RPGs would be doing something with the giants of comics, i.e. either Marvel or DC.
Quote from: mattormegI disagree - RPGs can do superheroes well, but you've got to dip deep into the realm of abstraction for a system that accurately captures the world of comic books. The powers and biff bang action isn't actually the most important part of a comic - it's the characters and ongoing story arc. By abstracting the mechanical aspects into narrative devices rather than A+B=effects formulas, you can better keep the focus on the story.
Matt (WereSwine).
I agree with this. M&M looked really cool until we actually had to play it. Then I realised that we'd be better off using Heroclicks, as the combat system is easier and there is no support for the real meat of supers comics (soap opera, essentially) in M&M anyway (aside from the usual "In the super-hero comics this and that happens, so when you design adventures make sure you include some of this and that." type of advice.)
Ned
Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyThen I realised that we'd be better off using Heroclicks, as the combat system is easier and there is no support for the real meat of supers comics (soap opera, essentially) in M&M anyway
Erm, what do you want? A "Aunt May injury of the week" table?
Quote from: RPGPunditAt one point, Mike Mearls was working on a D20 superhero game with a very unfortunate name (I believe it was D20 Spectaculars); I have since heard the rumour that this game was sunk.
What happened?
Why am I picturing super heroes doing "jazz hands" in my head?
Quote from: SosthenesErm, what do you want? A "Aunt May injury of the week" table?
Yes!
Quote from: Mystery ManWhy am I picturing super heroes doing "jazz hands" in my head?
Damn, now I am too. And the Hulk isn't doing it right and is out of step - he's getting mad!
From what I hear, it is because of a large license deal that Hasbro has in the works with one of the big two comic book publishers. The deal would be for toys and possibely games.
Quote from: SosthenesErm, what do you want? A "Aunt May injury of the week" table?
To be honest, I'm not sure. I was really charged about M&M until it turned into a long series of drawn out war-gamey combats. I can't imagine a d20 game would have been any better.
Ned
Quote from: SosthenesI don't see WotC doing a generic superhero game that's not a D20M supplement...
D20 Spectaculars was supposed to be a D20M supplement, not a stand-alone game.
Since this was Mearls' baby, and he drops by here every so often, perhaps we'll get an 'official' answer.
Quote from: RPGPundit... And more importantly, is this Wizards admitting that D20 doesn't do superheros well; or is it Wizards realizing that RPGs can't seem to do superheros well period? ...
Well, I've never really been into superheros for RPGs, so I have no idea whether there's anything intrinsic to the genre that makes them incompatible with RPGs.
But I'm surprised that you're not a fan of M&M, Pundit, given how much you seem to like True20 (despite the magic deer).
I rthink rpgs do supers fine- depending on the subtype of supers your looking for, anyway. I do either street level (Batman) or Cosmic (Kirby's Thor/ New gods) style stuff. I've never had any of the issues that Pundit seems to think are endemic to supers games. as I've said before, I really think it comes down to your group all wanting- or at least striving for a similar feel.
Personally I'm not really into the "Aunt May's rent is due, but Doc Ock is in town, and I can't take time out to work!/ OMG! Storm got a mohawk- what can it mean?" type of game. I don't much like those sorts of comics, either.
I'm looking forward to the City of Heroes RPG.
But anyhow, Mutants and Masterminds is either the best or second best Supers game going out there (2nd best to MEGS, the old DC Heroes system- which was horribly treated by the Blood Of Heroes guys). I can get into why the Blood of Heroes interpretation ruined the brilliance of MEGs if anyone cares. Anyhow.
What I don't like about M&M is: it's got just a bit too much mental aerobics for me. You get hit, you have to roll dice and then mentally compare a margin of 10 or 15? I havent played since 1st Edition but I just ordered 2nd edition. Maybe there's been an improvement. I've had superheroes on my mind lately. We had a guy that shot out ice as a 'snare' type effect (like you covered a bad guy in ice up to his waist or something). When the ice-covered guy wanted to break out, he rolled to hit and then instead of doing the intuitive thing about damaging the ice or shaking it off, you had to roll a saving throw for the ice. That kept throwing me off. Also, characters basicly are static in M&M- you don't level up. But in general the system does work and it works well. So I would have looked forward to D20 Spectaculars.
What I want is a supers game with hit points, classes, and levelling. I can hear people scoff now, but that is exactly what the City of Heroes MMO has and it is insanely successful. So thats what I want, except I want more powers than CoH has.
Quote from: Abyssal MawWhat I want is a supers game with hit points, classes, and levelling. I can hear people scoff now, but that is exactly what the City of Heroes MMO has and it is insanely successful. So thats what I want, except I want more powers than CoH has.
I think d20 Silver Age Sentinals has that.
Quote from: Abyssal MawWhat I want is a supers game with hit points, classes, and levelling. I can hear people scoff now, but that is exactly what the City of Heroes MMO has and it is insanely successful. So thats what I want, except I want more powers than CoH has.
There were 2 different D20 pdf products like that, I'm blanking on their names. If it comes to me I'll post it.
Yeah, Silver Age Sentinels was level/class/hit points based. It's a good system, if a little complicated when you're first learning it.
Quote from: buzzI think it has more to do with WotC cutting back on d20M releases, though I'm not sure why Spectaculars got bumped and Dark * Matter didn't. I'd venture a guess that the latter is a) more unique and 2) more in keeping with the d20M line as a whole, but that's just me making shit up.
I'd venture a guess that a good deal of it is the Dark*Matter setting that's prebuilt and has some track record, so they have better setting development fluff book possibilities. Superheros? Not sure how many crunchie Powers books you could drag out of that, even setting aside that I personally wouldn't be interested in a supers game that didn't have a robust mechanism for rolling my own powers.
So rather than pay the piper for licensing someone else's setting, or trying to build their own cheesy knockoffs (are they really going to go toe-to-toe against DC/Marvel?) they just went with D*M.
EDIT: BTW isn't City of Heros getting licensed as a P&P? Who's doing that?
Plus M&M be some stiff competition in the 20-sider catagory.
I believe Eden Studios is doing the City of Heroes RPG. May be wrong.
Both DC and Marvel have picked stinkers for RPG rules-sets for the last decade or so, so I don't really see that as competition. The only version that was good was the Greg Gorden-designed DC Heroes RPG (and it was really really good).
To all the people who think that RPG's can't do Supers well, due to the 'necessity' of handling the soap opera dramatics...
WTF age did you start reading comics? Did you NEVER read them and wish that you had the cool power.... I mean Kewl Powerz of Iron Man??? Or Superman? Nobody ever read a comic book and jumped off the bed wearing a bathtowel as a cape going 'I can fly'???
You want soap operas? Watch daytime Television. I hear Days of Our Lives is still going strong.
Now... if you'll excuse me my roof is calling to me. Bathtowelman to the rescue!!!
Quote from: Abyssal MawAlso, characters basicly are static in M&M- you don't level up.
Hm, you can use hero points or whatever they are called to add to your powers, or buy new powers. One of the problems is that supers in the comics don't change that much - if you look at SPidey, there's been the black costume (which turned out to be at least 50% plot device) and this new armour thing I'm not sure of because I don't ready Spidey anymore. But really, the vital changes to the character have been the death of Gwen Stacey, leaving college, marrying MJ and all that.
The standard power escalation of level-based game doens't seem well suited to that sort of thing. In a supers game you tend to START with the character you want, without much scope for the sort of change you see between a first and tenth level fighter in D&D, for example. In our M&M game, folks just added to their powers without changing things much (except one guy who wanted some new power, I forget what now, something to do with an amulet.. oh, that's right, he wanted to buy-off his disturbing visage and so we worked in this finding an occult amulet to the game plot - actually, that worked pretty well, but that guy is a very good player).
Ned
Quote from: SpikeTo all the people who think that RPG's can't do Supers well, due to the 'necessity' of handling the soap opera dramatics...
WTF age did you start reading comics? Did you NEVER read them and wish that you had the cool power.... I mean Kewl Powerz of Iron Man??? Or Superman? Nobody ever read a comic book and jumped off the bed wearing a bathtowel as a cape going 'I can fly'???
You want soap operas? Watch daytime Television. I hear Days of Our Lives is still going strong.
Now... if you'll excuse me my roof is calling to me. Bathtowelman to the rescue!!!
I'm just mystified by the attitude of needing MECHANICS for soap opera stuff.
QuoteThe standard power escalation of level-based game doens't seem well suited to that sort of thing.
CoH uses the food pellet reward of leveling. But generally, no a steep power curve doesn't really fit that well with traditional supers. Then again it doesn't really fit in the actual story of a lot of fantasy, certainly at a single book level although somewhat moreso across a large series of books.
I don't think it has to be, or should be dead flat though. Sure Superman was generally always amazingly kickass as an
adult. But as a kid he was weak, in many ways because of lack of knowledge. I also think adding gear/goodies I think is a great way to handle change. That occult amulet is an excellent example of that. Or managing to build your own fortress of solitude. Uncovering and honing powers that you always had is another.
Quote from: GabrielI'm just mystified by the attitude of needing MECHANICS for soap opera stuff.
Indeed.
It's not the lack of mechanics for soap opera stuff, but the fact that any combat in M&M (and Champions was the same, IIRC) dominated a session. In our three-player groups major conflicts would last a couple of hours, at least. We had a few misjudged mook fights (mea culpa) which had the same problem.
And IIRC, Champions had a system where you rolled each session to see if one of your dependants or events in your secret identity cropped up - pretty much a mechanic for the soap opera bits.
Ned
I agree: There is a certain take on superheroes that calls for a soap opera treatment (certain eras of the X-Men and the Teen Titans definitely qualify as that type of comic). But there should also be room for so much more. 'Superhero soap opera' is a microgenre. There's also the 'Animated series', the super comedy (like Blue Devil), the crime type comic, the adventure type comic, the solo hero, the team-up comic, the 'team group' (like JSA), the 'magic' comic. .. superheroes are such a huge category and you really need to go as wide as possible.
We had the opposite problem with combats: one or two missed saves would typically knock an assailant out, so combats went very quickly. But I had some devious players. They had one guy who could 'warp' through plants and another guy who could super-disguise himself, so they'd spend half the session investigating where the bad guy was, and then the super disguise guy would show up at the bad guys door, delivering a gift plant. The rest of the team would then warp on top of the bad guy and the combat took about 5 minutes.
Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyIt's not the lack of mechanics for soap opera stuff, but the fact that any combat in M&M (and Champions was the same, IIRC) dominated a session. In our three-player groups major conflicts would last a couple of hours, at least. We had a few misjudged mook fights (mea culpa) which had the same problem.
And IIRC, Champions had a system where you rolled each session to see if one of your dependants or events in your secret identity cropped up - pretty much a mechanic for the soap opera bits.
Ned
Well, superhero comics tend to be about battles.
If you don't want sessions to be about battles, then tell the GM you'd like more role-playing oriented sessions.
Plus, how much time a combat takes in a given system depends on how familiar everyone is with it. It sounds like the players need to get on the ball. Yes, I ran some pretty slow Robotech fights early on when I didn't have my house rules to make the system playable, but now I can run battles with dozens of combatants with a reasonable amount of speed.
Quote from: SpikeIndeed.
Mechanics for soap opera?
Easy. Each player has a girlfriend (or boyfriend, but come on, who're you kidding? It's a superhero game, we'll just get sexually frustrated guys ;) )
This is simulated by a printed picture, visible to everyone.
Now add beer and/or tequila.
After a few hours, Thunderbrawn will ogle Violet Vigilante's picture of Danni Ashe. Voila, the rest is left to good ol' inebriation.
I should become a Forge author.
Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyHm, you can use hero points or whatever they are called to add to your powers, or buy new powers. One of the problems is that supers in the comics don't change that much - if you look at SPidey, there's been the black costume (which turned out to be at least 50% plot device) and this new armour thing I'm not sure of because I don't ready Spidey anymore. But really, the vital changes to the character have been the death of Gwen Stacey, leaving college, marrying MJ and all that.
Ned
I disagree with this: Spider-man started out as being very much a neophyte, and he became more competent over time. But the real reason I want the levelling is because that serves the arc of a campaign better: I want the player characters to start as neophytes and become legendary over the course of the campaign. That way I can structure adventures around beating up a few thugs and underlings, and working their way up to the boss villian. At some point I want the characters to be able to say "back when I started out, 3 or 4 punks would have been a challenge, but now I can take on ten of them without breaking a sweat..."
Once they get to a certain level, they'll be characters that other neophyte heroes will totally look up to because of all theyve accomplished.
And like Blakkie said (for once I agree with him) there are plenty of comics where characters uncover powers they 'never knew they had' or 'develop a new suit of armor' or whatever. One recent example that I thought was pretty cool was in the animated Danny Phantom show- the ghost kid recently developed ice powers. He's always had this hint of 'coldness' when ghosts show up, but suddenly he unlocks something and he develops his ice powers. Thats cool.
Here's my personal campaign axiom: characters must develop as much as possible
in play and
not before play begins.
Quote from: GabrielWell, superhero comics tend to be about battles.
If you don't want sessions to be about battles, then tell the GM you'd like more role-playing oriented sessions.
Heh, I was the GM in those sessions and there was plenty of roleplaying, and detective shit and soapy stuff of our own invention. I talked to the players before the game about their characters and stuff they'd like to do - there was the amulet stuff, a flash-back session where a player played his PC's grandfather, "surprise" revelations, the whole bit. I'd just come off a huge Marvel Essentials jag (mostly F4 and Spidey) and was totally in the zone.
Problem was, that every time we came to the denoument, the game stopped dead with all the "mental aerobics" mentioned up thread. The combats were not freewheeling and exciting, the fucking boring. It was a fucking great game, except for the combats which made me want to slit my wrists.
Quote from: GabrielPlus, how much time a combat takes in a given system depends on how familiar everyone is with it.
The speed of a system is always going to be limited by the chunkiness of the system itself. The speed of light is a constant, you know.
EDIT Abysmal Maw: That sounds like a cool type of game, but if you look at M&M you will see that it's all about character archetypes. Look at the templates or whatever they are at the front of the book. That sounds like a cool game, but it's not how the authors of M&M imagine it being played.
Ned
QuoteEDIT Abysmal Maw: That sounds like a cool type of game, but if you look at M&M you will see that it's all about character archetypes. Look at the templates or whatever they are at the front of the book. That sounds like a cool game, but it's not how the authors of M&M imagine it being played.
Oh, I totally know. I wrote a 'hack' of the campaign assumption that had the characters starting at level 7 and going up in levels once every 3 sessions. (Instead of starting out at 10 and staying there). It was a very flawed hack, because the campaign assumption of level 10 means everyone has nearly all of their powers maxed for that level. So we had to add in a second 'respec' rule that allowed for some shifting around of power points upon levelling up. (Again, thats how CoH does it). We used the 'Hall of Heroes' (spreadsheet-based character sheet) for all of the calculations. It worked, kinda, but it was a bit unpredictable. We totally broke away from archetypes: we had one guy that made up a bunch of magic items. We had one guy that was a shapeshifter/elastic dude. One dude could control plants, and one guy had all 'negative energy/darkforce' powers which we cobbled together out of drain and energy blast.
What I want is a generally playable system that starts at level 1 and still gives PCs a wide advantage over 'mooks'- such that even a 1st level guy can take on 3 or 4 common thugs. DC Heroes does this really well.
I'll have to check out Silver Age Sentinels.
QuoteWhat I want is a generally playable system that starts at level 1 and still gives PCs a wide advantage over 'mooks'- such that even a 1st level guy can take on 3 or 4 common thugs. DC Heroes does this really well.
You still have issues trying to take it through the full range that D&D proper does. Because D&D PCs are mooks that end up as godlings. If you start that far above mooks and try to advance at roughly the same rate as D&D you hit the crazy godling levels a lot sooner. Next thing you know you are looking at Superman spinning the earth backwards to reverse time and going "hah, so it's amateur night?"
EDIT2: So I guess you'd be roughly playing Nobilis power levels and above then?
EDIT: Besides it is
nice to be able to slide in new characters into an active game and have them mean at least something. You can do this and still have a power curve of some sort. For example SR does this with their wide range of very different tasks with lots that are not combat orientated, so combat is just another aspect of the Skill system as opposed to the central core in D&D. I've never played CoH (left MMOs many, many years ago), so I don't recall what their plan is for allowing lower level characters to adventure with higher level ones?
Maybe the new Black Industries DC Heroes game will be "the one that does it right".
i had roughly the same feelings about M&M as Ned, but through my rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, i think TSR's Marvel Super Heroes was the best superhero game i've played. (of course, it was the mid-80's, and said glasses double as beer goggles on occasion, so ymmv.)
Quote from: SpikeTo all the people who think that RPG's can't do Supers well, due to the 'necessity' of handling the soap opera dramatics...
WTF age did you start reading comics? Did you NEVER read them and wish that you had the cool power.... I mean Kewl Powerz of Iron Man??? Or Superman? Nobody ever read a comic book and jumped off the bed wearing a bathtowel as a cape going 'I can fly'???
You want soap operas? Watch daytime Television. I hear Days of Our Lives is still going strong.
Now... if you'll excuse me my roof is calling to me. Bathtowelman to the rescue!!!
QFT
KEWL POWERZ AWAAAAAYY!
QuoteYou want soap operas? Watch daytime Television. I hear Days of Our Lives is still going strong.
Nah, watch Guiding Light (http://www.movieweb.com/tv/news/15/15415.php). You can get Soap Opera and Marvel Superhero all at the same time.
Quote from: kregmosieri had roughly the same feelings about M&M as Ned, but through my rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, i think TSR's Marvel Super Heroes was the best superhero game i've played. (of course, it was the mid-80's, and said glasses double as beer goggles on occasion, so ymmv.)
Having played both a few sessions of M&M and a crapload of Champions, I think I agree with you. The old Marvel game really captured the free-wheeling wahoo nature of the 70's & 80's Marvel universe and made a solid effort to try to encourage the soap operatics that form the backbone of Spidey-style stories.
Quote from: jrientsHaving played both a few sessions of M&M and a crapload of Champions, I think I agree with you. The old Marvel game really captured the free-wheeling wahoo nature of the 70's & 80's Marvel universe and made a solid effort to try to encourage the soap operatics that form the backbone of Spidey-style stories.
Really? What did they do to encourage that? It's been a while and I just remember that I was seriously pissed off that your "Karma" went to 0 if you killed someone. I so damn wanted to be Wolverine.
(who couldn't damage anything cause his Strength was too low...)
Ned:
You might like Truth and Justice--its "combat" mechanic allows damage ('fallout/setbacks actually') too trigger emotional soap opera stuff. That is if you have "Good Ranked Relationship with Daughter" as a trait--it can be used to bolster your PC in some instances--like rescuing her, or giving you a reason to break free from mind control. As well as letting you take damage to that trait--and thus strain your relationship.
Hearts & Souls works differently--"damage" being one form of setback, but so too are: accidental deaths of loved ones, being captured, having relationships fall apart because your too stressed out to give them time.
Both games give systems that allow soap opera stuff. Neither one /forces/ it in play (sort of T&J more or less will if you're first attribute damaged is one soap opera style ones--that's the future 'plot hook' rule..)
You might examine Truth & Justice--it sounds like it might be what your interested in rules wise...
Quote from: SilverlionNed:
You might examine Truth & Justice--it sounds like it might be what your interested in rules wise...
Yeah, I've heard of that one and will definitely give it a look next time we take up the supers baton. It could well be what I'm looking for.
Ned
Quote from: SosthenesReally? What did they do to encourage that? It's been a while and I just remember that I was seriously pissed off that your "Karma" went to 0 if you killed someone. I so damn wanted to be Wolverine.
(who couldn't damage anything cause his Strength was too low...)
That's not true. Wolverine could damage most people he had Good Strength. (That's 10 points of damage and with his claws he did Excellant Damage--that's 20 the same damage as a machine pistol, or twice that of a standard "rifle" in game)*
I suspect the GM was screwing you over with too tough body armor badies. The real issues is most people tended to think of 'high end'--when thugs might have 28 health, and even 'experienced' ones have 32 (hitmen, enforcers etc)--20 points of damage is a lot of health. Plus if its not-organic armor--say Mandroid or Sentinels--Wolverine could use the MATERIAL STRENGTH of his claws as damage aimed to shred the armor (but that only damaged the armor, not the person/robot) on the next attack striking the same spot, he did damage ignoring armor. All of this is from the rules in the MSH Advanced set.
Karma in the game was awarded for stopping crimes. But also for fulfilling commitments--job, dates, life. As well as doing some superheroic thngs that were sort of media related. Showing up to a supermarket opening got you Karma.
And, to be fair. Wolverine didn't kill nearly as many people as most fans of the character think. (Injure and maim yes--Cole, Macon and Reese for example.)
That and he isn't the type to rely on luck--but instead skill (that fighting plus talents)
*Plus if he can get Kill attacks with a red result--as long as he does even 1 point of damage to his foes with his claws.
Quote from: SosthenesReally? What did they do to encourage that? It's been a while and I just remember that I was seriously pissed off that your "Karma" went to 0 if you killed someone. I so damn wanted to be Wolverine.
(who couldn't damage anything cause his Strength was too low...)
The Karma system also awarded and penalized you based upon keeping your private life in order. There was a distinct mechanical advantage to finishing your fight with the Criminator in time to make your date with Legs Callahan.
The random encounter rules, while embryonic in form, also pushed the soap opera angle as I recall.
Quote from: SilverlionThat's not true. Wolverine could damage most people he had Good Strength. (That's 10 points of damage and with his claws he did Excellant Damage--that's 20 the same damage as a machine pistol, or twice that of a standard "rifle" in game)*
I suspect the GM was screwing you over with too tough body armor badies.
That was the point, he should get through armor. His damage in toto might not be as high, but with his claws, body armor should be no hindrance to Wolvie. If I remember correctly, the advanced edition did this better....
Quote from: SilverlionAnd, to be fair. Wolverine didn't kill nearly as many people as most fans of the character think. (Injure and maim yes--Cole, Macon and Reese for example.)
Yeah, but the statistics I had showed him with 0 Karma. As opposed to Captain America, the self-righteous prick.
(No offense, I've grown to like Cap later on)
Yeah, Wolverine's stats were re-worked as people caught on to the fact that he could barely chew through kevlar, much less Sentinels and crap.
Quote from: SilverlionNed:
You might like Truth and Justice--its "combat" mechanic allows damage ('fallout/setbacks actually') too trigger emotional soap opera stuff.
T&J uses the Prose Descriptive Qualities rules. You can download the basic rules for free:
http://www.atomicsockmonkey.com/freebies.asp#pdq
They're kinda neat but they're not quite my thing.
T&J adds quite a bit to the basic rules. It has quite a bit of stuff on supers in general. It's probably best for zany style supers but it's flexible. The pdf is a bit pricey ($13 for 134 pages) but it's high quality work.
Quote from: SpikeTo all the people who think that RPG's can't do Supers well, due to the 'necessity' of handling the soap opera dramatics...
WTF age did you start reading comics? Did you NEVER read them and wish that you had the cool power.... I mean Kewl Powerz of Iron Man??? Or Superman? Nobody ever read a comic book and jumped off the bed wearing a bathtowel as a cape going 'I can fly'???
You want soap operas? Watch daytime Television. I hear Days of Our Lives is still going strong.
Now... if you'll excuse me my roof is calling to me. Bathtowelman to the rescue!!!
Kewl powers are only one part of the equation. Nobody would read a comic that is *just* people getting smacked issue after issue.
Quote from: mattormegKewl powers are only one part of the equation. Nobody would read a comic that is *just* people getting smacked issue after issue.
yeah but there are definitely more options than this and soap opera. And really cool powers is the only thing i require rules for anyway.
Quote from: Aosyeah but there are definitely more options than this and soap opera. And really cool powers is the only thing i require rules for anyway.
So why do you
require rules for kewl powers? Are you too stupid to know how to just wing them? Are you that crappy a roleplayer???
:mischief:
Powers are still the defining bit for me. A supers game may hardly play with the drama of a supers comic, but then DnD hardly plays with the drama of a book by Tolkein. I don't know about Vance, myself.
I don't really care about a mechanic for making me "determined" or what have you. I just want to play as a freaking rubberman! And yes, I will play out all the rest voluntarily if that's what I feel like doing. And not complain when there's no special reward for it beyond xp.
Quote from: blakkieSo why do you require rules for kewl powers? Are you too stupid to know how to just wing them? Are you that crappy a roleplayer???
:mischief:
You see, there is a difference. A mechanic for a kewl power represents a conflict between a hero and a villain.
A mechanic for determination or morality or what have you represents a conflict between a player and a genre.
Quote from: beejazzYou see, there is a difference. A mechanic for a kewl power represents a conflict between a hero and a villain.
So? Fucking wing it! Cops and robber it. Just describe what your character is doing in the fight and let the GM make a totally subjective judgement call as to who wins the fight. What kind of crappy roleplayers do you play with?
QuoteA mechanic for determination or morality or what have you represents a conflict between a player and a genre.
That sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Could your rephrase and give it another shot? To start with "mechanic for determination" of what? And exactly what are you talking about with conflict between player and a genre? Gonna need some more explaination of that, because that doesn't fit with what I was talking about from what I see.
Quote from: blakkieSo? Fucking wing it! Cops and robber it. Just describe what your character is doing in the fight and let the GM make a totally subjective judgement call as to who wins the fight. What kind of crappy roleplayers do you play with?
First, I don't because I'd rather not. Second, don't even start to make this about what is objectively good or bad. I was just tossing in my two cents... a preference, really. Last, I play with people who kick ass. In dungeons. In capes. With big eyes and small mouths. It's what we do.
QuoteThat sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Could your rephrase and give it another shot? To start with "mechanic for determination" of what? And exactly what are you talking about with conflict between player and a genre? Gonna need some more explaination of that, because that doesn't fit with what I was talking about from what I see.
"determined" as in the general quality. As in "determination" as opposed to "determining the outcome." In any case, if I want to play as someone who doesn't kill, I don't particularly need that in my rules. Not that I'm into that... I'd rather play an ultraviolent character along the lines of Hellboy or The Punisher or what have you.
My point being that I'll decide for myself what I want to do and don't need a game designer or genre holding my hand every step of the way. Whereas whether I succeed once I've tried I'm happy to leave up to the system.
As in, "I personally care more about 'super' than 'hero.'"
Quote from: mattormegKewl powers are only one part of the equation. Nobody would read a comic that is *just* people getting smacked issue after issue.
That is a non-argument. I play... let's say D&D... every week. Now, A large part of playing D&D is killing the shit out of hordes of monsters, yet there I am. If we DON"T kill something every week, most players are good with that, and a few will bitch.
Likewise, if I get an issue of... let's say X-men... and wolverine doesn't pop his claws and gut some poor bastard, some readers will be cool with that, and others will bitch about being let down. So. Superman doesn't need cool powers if the damn comic book is all about him putting the moves on Lois Lane, does he?
Quote from: blakkieSo why do you require rules for kewl powers? Are you too stupid to know how to just wing them? Are you that crappy a roleplayer???
:mischief:
lol@fatbeard.