I can't say how long it will take, but eventually, absolutely everything that SJWs have done to RPGs and every other geek pop culture will be erased.
The white pill people need right now. Stuff like this is why I joined this site.
Hi, by the way. ;D
I see SJWs not doing so well in countries that arrest them.
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 23, 2021, 06:19:05 AM
I can't say how long it will take, but eventually, absolutely everything that SJWs have done to RPGs and every other geek pop culture will be erased.
C.S. Lewis said one time one must never wish gray to be black, because then it's a short distance to wishing white were black and then we have become devils. So, as pessimistic as I am on this issue, I see your analysis as hope-giving.
Well yeah, they'll get bored in this corner of the world and move back to politics, as they should. There's nothing here for them. Hell, the OSR appeared as a direct counter to what they were doing to D&D. Look at D&D V and compare it to AD&D. It's like looking in the mirror and seeing a completely different person.
Weird.
Let Hasbro placate to the Twitterati, it won't change how we play D&D because we have BECMI & AD&D to work with. What are they going to do --- go back and change older editions? Nope. They did good with 5: it drew OS gamers and new gamers. Can't discard that.
Bounded Accuracy, no racial limits, discarded alignment, Proficiency, CR levels and all the level bonuses. Hasbro made D&D V so attractive few could avoid it. It seems like such fun to new gamers. Plus, it's woke. "Evil" NPCs get questioned from the designer level, rather than at your table. Orcs can't be evil, right? The white man is to blame!!!
YoJust let Hasbro's D&D die by not buying it. You have people here who argue against WoTC/Hasbro BUT STILL BUY D&D V.
[Insert weak apology for buying a broken game].
If you support Hasbro, you're supporting the Twitterati again, and again and again.
If you run or play D&D V, you're supporting Jeremy Crawford, who hates the OSR & declared Greyhawk NON-CANON in order to make it more woke. Will you change your old D&D/AD&D settings to conform with Hasbro's "Fantasy Identity"?
As Tim Kask, D&D's first employee and editor of Dragon magazine, demonstrated --- FUCK HASBRO.
Greetings!
Great video episode, Pundit! Your commentary is a solid refresher on history and mythology, and the transcendent values that are embraced and endure through the passage of time.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: PsyXypher on October 23, 2021, 12:52:48 PM
The white pill people need right now. Stuff like this is why I joined this site.
Hi, by the way. ;D
Welcome to theRPGsite!
I'm curious how we will see the end of Master Vampires and Drow, Mind Flayers, Lamias, and Rakshasa's no longer have slaves. What is a politically correct fantasy adventure? What is a simulacrum of the past that has been purged of elements of the past (and the present because Libyan slave markets are a thing).
At some point it really is doomed to be a vapid incoherent cosplay constantly revised mad libs with a manipulative pseudo-legal social process to maintain a safe space. At some point that will not be anything youtubers want to watch actors perform.
Problem is. Its not going to happen because it didnt happen the last two times and will not happen either when the next iteration rolls around.
With each iteration theres been some lasting damage done to the gaming community. Some of the early stuff like the Satanic Panic witch hunts now only rare spots here and there or weird laws still enforced overseas. But the damage still persists. The 90s iteration was more invasive and closer to what we are seeing now. Just on a much milder tone overall. But the damage from that persists too in various mostly small ways.
That may not be the case with the current 2010 iteration as the damage is near systemic and shows little sign of abating any time soon. If anything they seem to be stepping up the madness. We are also facing long term infiltration and co-opting plans.
The only cold reassurance I get from all this is the fact that the 2030 iteration will near certainly turn on the current and declare THEM the vile nasty ist-ists. Because thats exactly what the 2010 iteration did to the 1990s iteration and what 90s did to 70s.
Karma.
No it won't, RPGPundit. You have missed the entire point, and have missed it completely.
Because it is too politically incorrect to talk about what is really happening most people just focus on SJWs and the "woke" crowd at Twitter.
This is where most people miss the point: these things are not the disease- they are merely symptoms.
The idea is to destroy western society as a whole, and contaminating pop culture with toxic ideology is one way of doing it. The SJWs are a mindless mass, merely obeying the orders of an elite that hates western society and wants to bring it down. If they were told tomorrow that AD&D is actually good because even in 1977 it had "strong empowered female characters" then suddenly TSR-era gaming would be "cool" the day after. Look at the SJWs as a religious cult and things make more sense.
The point is, it is NOT about making money and it is NOT about misguided leadership- we are dealing with a deliberate plan to bring down EVERYTHING. And that elite is NOT going to stop, ever.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on October 25, 2021, 08:19:16 PM
If they were told tomorrow that AD&D is actually good because even in 1977 it had "strong empowered female characters" then suddenly TSR-era gaming would be "cool" the day after. Look at the SJWs as a religious cult and things make more sense.
The rest of your post was great, but you're wrong with this part. Eowyn is a strong empowered female character, probably the first in fantasy, but they hate Tolkien. There are too many strong women in Game of Thrones to name, but they hate that too. Anyone remember the name of the strong female character in Rogue One? Nope, because that movie wasn't Wokeshit like the Rey films.
They don't want strong empowered women. They want women (and black people, and trans, etc.) who will STF up and Do What They are Told. When they push back against The Narrative, they are no longer useful.
I was just using that as an example. They hate Tolkein because they were TOLD to hate Tolkein, because of whatever they were told. If they were told to like Tolkein because OF Galadriel and Eowyn, then they would love Tolkein.
They want women to become man-hating consumers, to increase profits- women flooding the workplace decades ago lowered the value of workers (supply and demand) and feminism also made women into consumers rather than practical producers.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on October 25, 2021, 08:19:16 PM
No it won't, RPGPundit. You have missed the entire point, and have missed it completely.
Because it is too politically incorrect to talk about what is really happening most people just focus on SJWs and the "woke" crowd at Twitter.
This is where most people miss the point: these things are not the disease- they are merely symptoms.
The idea is to destroy western society as a whole, and contaminating pop culture with toxic ideology is one way of doing it. The SJWs are a mindless mass, merely obeying the orders of an elite that hates western society and wants to bring it down. If they were told tomorrow that AD&D is actually good because even in 1977 it had "strong empowered female characters" then suddenly TSR-era gaming would be "cool" the day after. Look at the SJWs as a religious cult and things make more sense.
The point is, it is NOT about making money and it is NOT about misguided leadership- we are dealing with a deliberate plan to bring down EVERYTHING. And that elite is NOT going to stop, ever.
But Myths survive even the destruction of civilizations. I am definitely not sure if western civilization will survive; but I feel pretty confident that RPGs will, and they won't be the SJW versions of RPGs.
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 25, 2021, 10:48:28 PM
But Myths survive even the destruction of civilizations. I am definitely not sure if western civilization will survive; but I feel pretty confident that RPGs will, and they won't be the SJW versions of RPGs.
Are RPGs an artifact of the West, though? Does anyone play D&D in China, for instance? Japan does, but Japan is largely Westernized. If the West goes what guarantee is there that it won't douse RPGs with it?
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 25, 2021, 10:50:08 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 25, 2021, 10:48:28 PM
But Myths survive even the destruction of civilizations. I am definitely not sure if western civilization will survive; but I feel pretty confident that RPGs will, and they won't be the SJW versions of RPGs.
Are RPGs an artifact of the West, though? Does anyone play D&D in China, for instance? Japan does, but Japan is largely Westernized. If the West goes what guarantee is there that it won't douse RPGs with it?
Greetings!
People play RPG's--and also D&D--all over the world. Gamers in Mexico, South America, throughout Eastern Europe, like Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, as well as in places like Finland, Ukraine, and Russia. I imagine there are also gamers in Asia, beyond Japan, like South Korea, China, India, the Philippines, Thailand, and other places.
RPG's and D&D will survive, even if the West and the United States wants to choke on shit.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on October 25, 2021, 10:51:43 PMI imagine there are also gamers in Asia, beyond Japan, like South Korea, China, India, the Philippines, Thailand, and other places.
More than you know ;)
Unfortunately, the rot has infiltrated many Asian countries that have more influences from the West. I think it's very unfortunate as many of us, myself included, grew up with more traditional values, but the influence of liberal Western media has eroded a lot of that. Presently in my country, the LGBTQBBQ movement, along with other popular bandwagon ideas, has taken hold and influenced much of the subculture of the younger generation so that they continue to repeat the same rhetoric that is being spread in the US and Europe without questioning its veracity, origin or implication. Furthermore, the narrative is emphasised and repeated in your usual pseudointellectual (and often hateful) manner, as is commonly seen on Twitter. It's really a shame.
Quote from: mudbanks on October 25, 2021, 11:51:47 PM
Quote from: SHARK on October 25, 2021, 10:51:43 PMI imagine there are also gamers in Asia, beyond Japan, like South Korea, China, India, the Philippines, Thailand, and other places.
More than you know ;)
Unfortunately, the rot has infiltrated many Asian countries that have more influences from the West. I think it's very unfortunate as many of us, myself included, grew up with more traditional values, but the influence of liberal Western media has eroded a lot of that. Presently in my country, the LGBTQBBQ movement, along with other popular bandwagon ideas, has taken hold and influenced much of the subculture of the younger generation so that they continue to repeat the same rhetoric that is being spread in the US and Europe without questioning its veracity, origin or implication. Furthermore, the narrative is emphasised and repeated in your usual pseudointellectual (and often hateful) manner, as is commonly seen on Twitter. It's really a shame.
Greetings!
Hi Mudbanks! YES! Very true, and good to know. Of course, gamers, creators, podcasters, companies and so on are more prominent in the United States and the West--but certainly, RPG's and D&D grows everywhere, just about, even in places that we don't hear about as much regarding the hobby.
As for your neck of the woods in Asia, well, my friend, keep up the fight! FIGHT for faith, for traditionalism, for true, genuine culture. You an your family depend on the outcome in very real ways. I know it can get discouraging, and exhausting. Many times it can feel like you are outnumbered and doomed. Resist such feelings, and steel yourself to fight for these greater values. The Communists are like filthy, diseased rats in human form. Their brainwashed brethren, the watered -down Socialists, the Liberals, the Democrats, whatever you know them as in your country, must be resisted, and defeated. Speak out, stand up, and don't back own. Don't retreat. Make them uncomfortable. Make them feel ashamed. Make them retreat to the shadows and gutters and sewers, which is where they truly belong.
Game on, my friend! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
RPGs as a medium are very enduring.
Let's say you're a gamer, and you've been thrown back in time somehow to prehistoric times. Assuming you run into other people, and you learn the language well enough, you would be all it takes to teach that tribe how to play RPGs. You'd need some kind of randomizer (say, Cowrie shells or something) and that's it.
The concepts of D&D would not even necessarily be foreign: go into the cave to fight monsters and get rewards.
That's why I'm sure that RPGs ("D&D", though not necessarily any current edition) will survive even the fall of the west should that happen.
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 25, 2021, 10:48:28 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on October 25, 2021, 08:19:16 PM
No it won't, RPGPundit. You have missed the entire point, and have missed it completely.
Because it is too politically incorrect to talk about what is really happening most people just focus on SJWs and the "woke" crowd at Twitter.
This is where most people miss the point: these things are not the disease- they are merely symptoms.
The idea is to destroy western society as a whole, and contaminating pop culture with toxic ideology is one way of doing it. The SJWs are a mindless mass, merely obeying the orders of an elite that hates western society and wants to bring it down. If they were told tomorrow that AD&D is actually good because even in 1977 it had "strong empowered female characters" then suddenly TSR-era gaming would be "cool" the day after. Look at the SJWs as a religious cult and things make more sense.
The point is, it is NOT about making money and it is NOT about misguided leadership- we are dealing with a deliberate plan to bring down EVERYTHING. And that elite is NOT going to stop, ever.
But Myths survive even the destruction of civilizations. I am definitely not sure if western civilization will survive; but I feel pretty confident that RPGs will, and they won't be the SJW versions of RPGs.
Don't be too sure of that.
People tend to think of Tolkein as having written an epic high fantasy, but believe it or not he wasn't, not really. Unlike Greek mythology ancient English mythology was wiped out, forgotten- King Arthur, Merlin, Excalibur, Robin Hood, are all relatively recent. So Tolkein actually tried to fill in that gap. So the loss of mythology has happened before; cultures have been wiped out before and their legends with them.
This is what the elite behind leftism is trying to do. Superman 2.0 is now bisexual. Jean-Luc Picard is now a wimpy old loser. Luke Skywalker is a pathetic hermit. Thor is now an angry feminist woman. Tony Stark, the list goes on. WotC is declaring old stuff to be racist, sexist, etc.- how long before just owning it is a hate crime? What you speak of is being muddied, confused, soon people won't be sure if Thor was a man or a woman before, what exactly IS AD&D- that old stuff or the new "woke" stuff? If more and more things become a hate crime, then who will dare even play the old stuff since spy technology is vastly superior to anything the former Soviet Union ever had?
Make no mistake about it- Big Brother/Sister (mustn't be sexist) IS watching. Your browsing habits, what books or movies you've ordered...did you buy the horrible hatemonger sexist non-woke RPGPundit's stuff? Well, unless you paid cash somewhere isolated you are on record. A friend had ordered a book about Israel's power over American foreign policy (this person is a rabid Steven Colbert watching leftist) so I told him that he is on record as having ordered such a book, no doubt making him an "anti-semite" according to "anti-hate" groups. He had not thought about this.
The idea is to turn us into hedonistic, weak, stupid people. Easily controlled. Drug boys for ADHD, a phony disease, make us all too scared to do anything. RPGPundit, I am over half a century old, and can tell you that at the rate things are going anything good in pop culture, including heroic fantasy, the original saga of Luke Skywalker, anything good- may not survive at this rate. The SJWs and their overlords, the real problem, are winning time and again. Compare 1981 to 2021. It's frightening. SJWs are weak and kind of stupid, but the people behind them are not and they have WEALTH to keep woke failures going long enough to do the job. Under normal capitalist rules Marvel comics should have collapsed completely by now, with or without Covid-19, but they are still here. Haven't you wondered how?
The idea behind deconstructing is in part about trying to convince people that not only aren't classic heroes and epics and whatever any good, but that THEY NEVER WERE. This is why Luke, Picard, and so many others must be ruined and degraded now. Lowest common denominator. We are being hit from all sides at once.
Note that this is not about surrender, just making it clear what we're all up against.
Segregation is the key to the survival. People who do not want woke shit in their lives need to create parallel economies and spaces where woke shit is not tolerated.
And be prepared to defend those spaces with force as necessary.
The secession of red states would make this much easier for residents of those areas. As Mark Dice and others have discussed, social media (most especially Twitter) is the engine driving the crazy train so dealing with that beast is the only way for nations to survive its onslaught of round the clock stupid.
As for the hobby, I don't know if it will last the end of the West, and frankly, what happens past my lifetime isn't my concern. If the West successfully commits suicide, say sayonara to any humanitarian civilization for a thousand years, or longer if the CCP decides to cleanse the world of non-Chinese.
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on October 26, 2021, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 25, 2021, 10:48:28 PM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on October 25, 2021, 08:19:16 PM
No it won't, RPGPundit. You have missed the entire point, and have missed it completely.
Because it is too politically incorrect to talk about what is really happening most people just focus on SJWs and the "woke" crowd at Twitter.
This is where most people miss the point: these things are not the disease- they are merely symptoms.
The idea is to destroy western society as a whole, and contaminating pop culture with toxic ideology is one way of doing it. The SJWs are a mindless mass, merely obeying the orders of an elite that hates western society and wants to bring it down. If they were told tomorrow that AD&D is actually good because even in 1977 it had "strong empowered female characters" then suddenly TSR-era gaming would be "cool" the day after. Look at the SJWs as a religious cult and things make more sense.
The point is, it is NOT about making money and it is NOT about misguided leadership- we are dealing with a deliberate plan to bring down EVERYTHING. And that elite is NOT going to stop, ever.
But Myths survive even the destruction of civilizations. I am definitely not sure if western civilization will survive; but I feel pretty confident that RPGs will, and they won't be the SJW versions of RPGs.
Don't be too sure of that.
People tend to think of Tolkein as having written an epic high fantasy, but believe it or not he wasn't, not really. Unlike Greek mythology ancient English mythology was wiped out, forgotten- King Arthur, Merlin, Excalibur, Robin Hood, are all relatively recent. So Tolkein actually tried to fill in that gap. So the loss of mythology has happened before; cultures have been wiped out before and their legends with them.
This is what the elite behind leftism is trying to do. Superman 2.0 is now bisexual. Jean-Luc Picard is now a wimpy old loser. Luke Skywalker is a pathetic hermit. Thor is now an angry feminist woman. Tony Stark, the list goes on. WotC is declaring old stuff to be racist, sexist, etc.- how long before just owning it is a hate crime? What you speak of is being muddied, confused, soon people won't be sure if Thor was a man or a woman before, what exactly IS AD&D- that old stuff or the new "woke" stuff? If more and more things become a hate crime, then who will dare even play the old stuff since spy technology is vastly superior to anything the former Soviet Union ever had?
Make no mistake about it- Big Brother/Sister (mustn't be sexist) IS watching. Your browsing habits, what books or movies you've ordered...did you buy the horrible hatemonger sexist non-woke RPGPundit's stuff? Well, unless you paid cash somewhere isolated you are on record. A friend had ordered a book about Israel's power over American foreign policy (this person is a rabid Steven Colbert watching leftist) so I told him that he is on record as having ordered such a book, no doubt making him an "anti-semite" according to "anti-hate" groups. He had not thought about this.
The idea is to turn us into hedonistic, weak, stupid people. Easily controlled. Drug boys for ADHD, a phony disease, make us all too scared to do anything. RPGPundit, I am over half a century old, and can tell you that at the rate things are going anything good in pop culture, including heroic fantasy, the original saga of Luke Skywalker, anything good- may not survive at this rate. The SJWs and their overlords, the real problem, are winning time and again. Compare 1981 to 2021. It's frightening. SJWs are weak and kind of stupid, but the people behind them are not and they have WEALTH to keep woke failures going long enough to do the job. Under normal capitalist rules Marvel comics should have collapsed completely by now, with or without Covid-19, but they are still here. Haven't you wondered how?
The idea behind deconstructing is in part about trying to convince people that not only aren't classic heroes and epics and whatever any good, but that THEY NEVER WERE. This is why Luke, Picard, and so many others must be ruined and degraded now. Lowest common denominator. We are being hit from all sides at once.
"English" myth includes the earliest (Welsh) Arthurian stories from the dark ages, which are older than Beowulf, which is also an example of English myth.
But you're right to the extent that for example Briton celtic myth outside of Wales was devastated by the cultural invasion of Rome. However, that was an illiterate people with an oral tradition, in a relatively small area. In the modern world, there's literally almost no place on Earth that hasn't heard of Superman. And if the stories survive, it will be the best most appealing stories that survive.
QuoteIf you run or play D&D V, you're supporting Jeremy Crawford, who hates the OSR
Well that's per se not a sin. I mean his wokism is, but OSR is just like whatever...
QuoteProblem is. Its not going to happen because it didnt happen the last two times and will not happen either when the next iteration rolls around.
With each iteration theres been some lasting damage done to the gaming community. Some of the early stuff like the Satanic Panic witch hunts now only rare spots here and there or weird laws still enforced overseas. But the damage still persists. The 90s iteration was more invasive and closer to what we are seeing now. Just on a much milder tone overall. But the damage from that persists too in various mostly small ways.
That may not be the case with the current 2010 iteration as the damage is near systemic and shows little sign of abating any time soon. If anything they seem to be stepping up the madness. We are also facing long term infiltration and co-opting plans.
The only cold reassurance I get from all this is the fact that the 2030 iteration will near certainly turn on the current and declare THEM the vile nasty ist-ists. Because thats exactly what the 2010 iteration did to the 1990s iteration and what 90s did to 70s.
I'd say for RPGs to be de-wokised generational change has to occur among Western world youth.
Hard to say if it's possible, I'd say not in a short time.
QuoteThe point is, it is NOT about making money and it is NOT about misguided leadership- we are dealing with a deliberate plan to bring down EVERYTHING. And that elite is NOT going to stop, ever.
Quite contrary - it's precisely about making money but really big players, cult of Mammon. Destabilisation of Western countries, serve to rise power, influence and income of great players.
Sure there are genuine revolutionists wishing to abolish West, but they would be just some autistic basement screechers without Uncle Dollar.
QuoteThe SJWs are a mindless mass, merely obeying the orders of an elite that hates western society
Such claim can be made only by someone who never been on leftist forum or facebook group. SJWs shares some common morale but in terms of practical application and details they are divided in many aspects, and they spend a lot of time quarreling over minutia of their SJWism. Their groups are like regular shitstorms, often ending in schisms and splits (and I'm talking about basic leftbook not even dissidents in lieu of RadFems). Sure they are used by Big Guys in their actions, but they are not footsoldiers - they are too unruly for that. Footsoldiers are your mediocre big city corporate rats.
QuoteI was just using that as an example. They hate Tolkein because they were TOLD to hate Tolkein, because of whatever they were told. If they were told to like Tolkein because OF Galadriel and Eowyn, then they would love Tolkein.
But the point is - SJWs are dividen in subject of Tolkien, and often quarreling about it. Like I said - overall moral divisions are somehow defined, but application... no not really.
QuoteBut Myths survive even the destruction of civilizations. I am definitely not sure if western civilization will survive; but I feel pretty confident that RPGs will, and they won't be the SJW versions of RPGs.
But RPG is not Myth (and even in terms of Myths I'm quite sure we lost vast amounts of them in our history. It's a hobby. Quite niche. Weird combination of hazard games, tactical maps from XIX century armies and traditional paleolithic campfire storytelling. It's short lived, lack massive popularity, and in most countries it's even more niche than in USA. And it generally needs nerds to fluorish. Civilisational collapse can very well take it away. Storytelling will survive of course. Other things... not so sure. Depends of scope.
QuoteLet's say you're a gamer, and you've been thrown back in time somehow to prehistoric times. Assuming you run into other people, and you learn the language well enough, you would be all it takes to teach that tribe how to play RPGs. You'd need some kind of randomizer (say, Cowrie shells or something) and that's it.
I'm too busy to survive. And if we're down to paleolithic even with some dices (not good enough probably) - you won't have time, materials and so on to craft proper RPGs so it probably devolves to separate hazard dicing and separate storytelling. And people busy with everyday survival may very well - just don't need RPGs.
QuotePeople tend to think of Tolkein as having written an epic high fantasy, but believe it or not he wasn't, not really. Unlike Greek mythology ancient English mythology was wiped out, forgotten- King Arthur, Merlin, Excalibur, Robin Hood, are all relatively recent. So Tolkein actually tried to fill in that gap. So the loss of mythology has happened before; cultures have been wiped out before and their legends with them.
Only not. Ancient English mythology is... West Germanic mythology. Angles were kin to Frisians and Saxons, old English simmilar to modern Frisian and Low Saxon languages.
Their mythology was West Germanic mythology and that's not forgotten. And before them there were Brittons - from whom Welsh and Cornish remains as cultures - and we still have quite good grasp of their mythology. Whole problem for Tolkien was that England lacks ancient mythology - because it's not ancient. It's hybrid nation that came from various Germanic folk and Celts, and remanant of Roman culture, and Normandian French - all merged together. And neither of original mythologies really suited what England become with time. That's why in Middle-Earth we have hobbits, almost contemporary to Tolkien English rustic folk, we have old Anglosaxons in Rohirrim, we have ancient Roman Empire in Gondor, fae/aelfs/sidhe in Elves, and so on.
And English was formed as Christian country - Anglosaxons conquered Christian Celts and were quickly Christians themselves, so there is no real Pagan England.
King Arthur and Merlin are probably remnants of some pre-English Celtic stories, later modified by ages.
QuoteJean-Luc Picard is now a wimpy old loser. Luke Skywalker is a pathetic hermit.
It's called getting old and crochety.
QuoteIf more and more things become a hate crime, then who will dare even play the old stuff since spy technology is vastly superior to anything the former Soviet Union ever had?
I.
And it most likely won't happen in our lifetime, if anywhere. The alliance between Cult of Mammon and SJWs is... quite fragile, and it can turn in various interesting ways.
QuoteUnder normal capitalist rules Marvel comics should have collapsed completely by now, with or without Covid-19, but they are still here. Haven't you wondered how?
Marvel Comics survive precisely because of normal capitalist rules - because it's owner is willing to print them, and has enough money to do it. That's as normal capitalism as it's goes, unless they took some grand government dotations.
So 1e AD&D will survive anything, because it is Mythic.
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 27, 2021, 08:25:54 AM
Quote from: GriswaldTerrastone on October 26, 2021, 10:16:18 PM
The idea behind deconstructing is in part about trying to convince people that not only aren't classic heroes and epics and whatever any good, but that THEY NEVER WERE. This is why Luke, Picard, and so many others must be ruined and degraded now. Lowest common denominator. We are being hit from all sides at once.
"English" myth includes the earliest (Welsh) Arthurian stories from the dark ages, which are older than Beowulf, which is also an example of English myth.
But you're right to the extent that for example Briton celtic myth outside of Wales was devastated by the cultural invasion of Rome. However, that was an illiterate people with an oral tradition, in a relatively small area. In the modern world, there's literally almost no place on Earth that hasn't heard of Superman. And if the stories survive, it will be the best most appealing stories that survive.
I don't know about the fall of civilization, but I agree with Pundit on the broad point that deconstruction is weak and doesn't have the power of myth. Having bad adaptations or other bad works doesn't destroy the myth. For example, there were many stage and film adaptations of The Wizard of Oz long before the 1939 Judy Garland movie, but they have generally been forgotten. Likewise, bad adaptations like the Star Wars Christmas Special just become a footnote in history and the myth gets re-adapted.
Pundit cites Superman and Star Wars (original series only) as myths that will endure. There have been tons of terrible Superman stories, and he's been reinvented countless times. So a few bad Star Wars or Superman adaptations won't destroy the myth.
Still, it can be hard to see at the time what will survive in the longer term. For example, when I was young in the 1970s, Tarzan showed signs of being an enduring myth. With lots of film and television adaptations over 50 years from the first publication in 1912, it stayed huge in the public consciousness for over 50 years. However, I think since then, Tarzan has faded from consciousness and I think now the myth won't stick around.
As far as D&D goes, though, I think Wrath of God has a fair point -
Quote from: Wrath of God on October 28, 2021, 11:15:34 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 25, 2021, 10:48:28 PM
But Myths survive even the destruction of civilizations. I am definitely not sure if western civilization will survive; but I feel pretty confident that RPGs will, and they won't be the SJW versions of RPGs.
But RPG is not Myth (and even in terms of Myths I'm quite sure we lost vast amounts of them in our history. It's a hobby. Quite niche. Weird combination of hazard games, tactical maps from XIX century armies and traditional paleolithic campfire storytelling. It's short lived, lack massive popularity, and in most countries it's even more niche than in USA. And it generally needs nerds to fluorish. Civilisational collapse can very well take it away. Storytelling will survive of course. Other things... not so sure. Depends of scope.
Something may survive from D&D, but I don't think it would be recognizable as the same as the D&D we know.
I think predicting what shall stay being a Myth in case of 100 years old (at best) popculture devices is like very imprecise form of divination.
QuoteSomething may survive from D&D, but I don't think it would be recognizable as the same as the D&D we know.
In the future technobarbaric society, no one will have time for RPGs as whole reality will turn into one big LARP. However legends of beholders and Space Marines will not be forgotten for next 1400 years, till death of He-Droves-On-Chromium-Bicycle last carpenter-shaman of Wis-Con-Sin-Berg nation.
QuoteSo 1e AD&D will survive anything, because it is Mythic.
Unfortunately so is "Wrath of Righteousness" AP for Pazuzu's Pathfinder
Quote from: jhkim on October 28, 2021, 05:40:53 PM
For example, when I was young in the 1970s, Tarzan showed signs of being an enduring myth. With lots of film and television adaptations over 50 years from the first publication in 1912, it stayed huge in the public consciousness for over 50 years. However, I think since then, Tarzan has faded from consciousness and I think now the myth won't stick around.
Aw now, put your faith in what you most believe in... ;D
The only reason Tarzan is "fading" is because he's anathema to the Woke and very difficult to adapt towards the woke without ending up at "Tarzan in name only." The books are still around and in the public domain, so its just a matter of time until someone resurrects him. Hopefully as a period piece rather than some modern re-imagining.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 28, 2021, 06:39:45 PM
The only reason Tarzan is "fading" is because he's anathema to the Woke and very difficult to adapt towards the woke without ending up at "Tarzan in name only." The books are still around and in the public domain, so its just a matter of time until someone resurrects him. Hopefully as a period piece rather than some modern re-imagining.
I think Tarzan faded long before Woke. But yeah, they would not approve of him today.
QuoteThe only reason Tarzan is "fading" is because he's anathema to the Woke and very difficult to adapt towards the woke without ending up at "Tarzan in name only." The books are still around and in the public domain, so its just a matter of time until someone resurrects him. Hopefully as a period piece rather than some modern re-imagining.
There was high budget "Tarzan" film few years ago.
Didn't do much AFAIK and I see no real push for it's return or popularity.
God, I'm a newb to this site and I swear it's like that first breath of fresh air to a drowning man. 8)
53 yr old Grog who started with AD&D in '79. Played every edition except 4th. Experienced some weird stuff at the table the past couple years, and have actually drifted back to a 2E campaign with some like-minded, more mature people as a result, and have been enjoying the hell out of it. I just hate like hell to see my favorite hobby infected with this leftist mental illness that seems to have its hooks into EVERYTHING these days.
This is just a fit of pique that'll last until 2025. This whole cultural decade 2015-2025 is a write-off. Even the youth, no, especially the youth!, have written this era off. From manga & K- pop to retro-video gaming (since when were Rogue-likes king of the mountain this long?) to hardcopy purchases of classic movies & American comics, huge swaths of this Western age is being rejected wholesale by younger people.
RPGs are about storytelling and tapping into the mythic, hard to get more core to humanity than that. And as novel as sharing the speaking stick and casting out the asleep non-believers may seem, such gossipy politics has foundations worse than sand. Polemics are too hard to make lasting art because they are too stark, they lack transcendent nuance and ambiguity. There is no mystery to them so they age like defined fashion; by naming it, codifying it, it dies. When everyone has to do it to conform it is already passé.
Quote from: jmarso on October 30, 2021, 01:03:30 AM
God, I'm a newb to this site and I swear it's like that first breath of fresh air to a drowning man. 8)
53 yr old Grog who started with AD&D in '79. Played every edition except 4th. Experienced some weird stuff at the table the past couple years, and have actually drifted back to a 2E campaign with some like-minded, more mature people as a result, and have been enjoying the hell out of it. I just hate like hell to see my favorite hobby infected with this leftist mental illness that seems to have its hooks into EVERYTHING these days.
Greetings!
WELCOME TO THE RPGSITE, Jmarso!
Post more, sir. Lots of conversations and discussions here about all kinds of things!
A breath of fresh air indeed! It's like an island of sanity amidst a sea of insane nutjobs, or uber-tyrannical sites full of Marxist, SJW drones and POD people, like in the old movie "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers" with Donald Sutherland. Yeah, that last scene, where Sutherland opens his mouth and screams the drone noise, with that soulless, crazed look on his face?
That's how I view the SJW's that have infiltrated the hobby nearly everywhere. ;D
Pour some fresh coffee. Feel free to light up a fine cigar or a good pipe. Again, welcome!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
A big part of the problem is that too many people simply do not understand what is happening here.
The SJWs ARE cannon fodder, being directed by an elite. Understand that SJWs have absolutely NOTHING else in their lives, so to fill in the void they will simply be "woke" and "fight" for whatever cause is put in front of them at the moment. It is the elite that controls them, and they are VERY good at controlling mainstream thought.
Consider my age, and what I've seen. For example, normalizing homosexuality actually started more in earnest during the 1970's. The threat of World War 3 in the early 1980's (the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and Ronald Reagan's election) seemed much more likely, so as always leftism died down because it was actually a dangerous time that could be seen. One look at the movies, television programs, etc. from that era will prove this: they were far more masculine overall than most of the 1970's.
But then came another factor: AIDS. By the latter half of the 1980's it was certainly a big story, but after Gobachev taking power in 1985 the Cold War cooled down. Notice the pop culture that appeared at this point: "Oprah," "Married with Chidren," etc. So once again heavy leftism started appearing openly again, including normalizing homosexuality and putting it into the mainstream. But AIDS presented a problem: it was a crisis for all according to the mainstream, yet everyone knew it was especially prevalent among homosexuals for obvious reasons.
In other words, because of AIDS any effort to normalize homosexuality should have been doomed to fail from the start- but like I'm seeing here now people underestimated how clever and treacherous that elite is and always was. Instead of being a disease transmitted largely by the sexual practices of homosexuals they were made out to be tragic victims, surrounded by hateful bigots who had no compassion for their apparently unavoidable situation. They were made out to be almost heroes in some tragic story, and movies like "Philadelphia" enforced this notion.
This was absolutely the best example of snatching victory from the t-rex jaws of defeat I have ever seen in my entire life.
In the now-dead website "Return of Kings" people were saying SJWs and leftism would be defeated, passe, gone...back in 2016. Didn't quite work out that way, did it?
The actual mythology of England was lost, I mean the stuff from long before King Arthur, long before. This sort of thing has happened before. So yes, it did happen there, and it will happen again.
Statues being torn down. History books being rewritten. Schools becoming indoctrination centers, with Marxist teachers no longer even trying to hide it.
RPGPundit, you still miss the point. Look at lists made right here about what the leftists have taken over. Look at was to have happened to "Lord of the Rings:" a politically-correct porn extravaganza, for crying out loud they have successfully banned DR. SEUSS books! Inertia in society is as real as in physics, and the left is gaining more and more every day.
SJWs are merely cannon fodder. It does not matter if they consume themselves along the way, just as long as they get the job done first. Bomb and airplane example. They are so dense they do not realize that the elite I speak of hates them as much as it hates us, and even if space aliens grabbed us and took us away forever tomorrow their fates will not change- death. Yet they have nothing else. By eliminating traditional structures a void was left behind, it wasn't give and take, it was all take with nothing in return. I hear from that relative of mine about how Baby Boomers are alone, increasingly in nursing homes, I pointed out that Generation X was much smaller so what did they expect? Women are miserable now because they believed lies without ever noticing the elite pushing radical feminism (among other things) never practices it. Opposing people like us, any enemy, is all SJWs have. I keep saying that because it cannot be stressed enough: no matter how much they hate and fear each other (TERFs and "transsexuals," BLM blacks and white leftists, etc.) as long as the eternal enemy- white straight males- exist and anything they stand for they will move in the direction they are given, because they can now do nothing else.
Understand this, folks: thanks to the failure of the so-called "Greatest Generation" to nip this in the bud long ago, thanks to the baby Boomers going along with it, we are almost at the point where it is a zero-sum game- us or them. Look at the oppressive laws passed, look at people being banned from conventions- for what?- look at...does it sound like 1981 where rational discussion and give and take was possible?
Year Zero is what we are heading for, and that elite will make its cannon fodder, and the "woke" politicians, do whatever it takes to achieve this. I was around in 1981 and aware of what was happening, and if I went back in time and started telling people what 2021 would be like NOBODY would have believed it- heck, I could have made money selling it as a dystopian science fiction story.
DO NOT underestimate what is happening now. Remember that just a few years before any major- and bad- upheaval in human history things always seemed normal on the surface. If I went back in time to 1912 or 1935 do you think anyone would have believed my warnings? If I went back to late 1987 and told people the Soviet Union would be gone, collapsed, do you think anyone would have believed me? No. So I do wonder if owning "racist, sexist, hatemongering" RPG stuff can land you in jail in the coming years.
There is something we have now- who is "The Man" now? Who bullies, censors, bans now? Who removes Youtube channels now? The newest generation sees this and does not like it. Young girls do not like the threat of "transsexuals" in the locker rooms and bathrooms with them; point out who is responsible. Young boys do not like being drugged and bullied in school into writing papers about how evil they are and no matter how much better they try to be it won't matter because "diversity" must come first. That generation sees what is happening and they know they despise it. That is a factor in our favor. Let them know they are not alone. Read that comment from the newcomer just above- THAT is how we can win, if we can ever win. That is what we must do to win, and it must be sincere.
Keep up the OSR work, RPGPundit. Small things add up. Even a killer asteroid can miss if it's deflected just a little in time. Let the new TSR know people are wishing them the best. If you are an artist, a writer- post. There are people starving for it now.
Repost- sorry. ???
Didn't the Clintons make the Dems "Centrists" the way Devils are the GOP and the Demons are the Dems/Center-Left? They all protect the rich elites who pad their elections. Look at them gut the "GREAT" Dem debt-bomb that will "SAVE AMERICA!" Because Trump didn't leave Americans with Stimulus-heavy accounts not to mention his tax-cuts that helped even the Middle Class.
Now I'll be honest: GOP or Dem, they're ALL crooks. They all protect their corporate masters that keep getting them elected. Because not enough Americans actually vote. If the Dems can turn southern states blue when they want it's only a matter of time before the hippies run the show ON DEMAND.
Where the GOP can regain ground: Pro-Life stance and the Rule of Law. The traditional aspects of the 4th Wave. The GOP can ALWAYS push back the Dems by painting them as Anarchist Atheists that enjoy killing babies.
QuoteThe actual mythology of England was lost, I mean the stuff from long before King Arthur, long before. This sort of thing has happened before. So yes, it did happen there, and it will happen again.
There was no mythology of England from before King Arthur, because there was no England before King Arthur, and King Arthur if he had any real source was most like Britton Celt, and his legends are Celtic and pre-English in origin. English - or more correctly Angles and Saxons were Germanic tribe from Northern and Western Germanic area - kin to modern Frisians - that started to settle in Britian, conquering and subjugating Brittons, estabilishing own kingdoms in place of fallen Roman Empire and Celtic states. England as cultural ethnicity is at best 1500 years old. Before that Angles and Saxons lived in Germany, and Great Britian was indeed Brittonic - and we know well not all, but quite a lot from Brittonic or Gaelic mythologies and legends and folklore.
QuoteIf I went back to late 1987 and told people the Soviet Union would be gone, collapsed, do you think anyone would have believed me? No.
In 1987? After Chernobyl? It was much more widely expected indeed. Though I guess expectations were like decade longer, but yes in 1987 agony of Soviet Union was quite clear.
QuoteThe SJWs ARE cannon fodder, being directed by an elite. Understand that SJWs have absolutely NOTHING else in their lives, so to fill in the void they will simply be "woke" and "fight" for whatever cause is put in front of them at the moment. It is the elite that controls them, and they are VERY good at controlling mainstream thought.
Assumption that anyone really controls this whole bullshit happening now, is widely exaggerated. Sure there are powerful cliques, and coteries, and secret circles. But the point it - you cannot control world. Soviets couldn't do it. Even North Korean government who went to extreme miles to do it - it's not like top notch controled. Fallen reality is chaos. Elites just know how to ride on waves of chaos, and stay on top.
make sure this thread doesn't veer off into general politics discussion. Only stay within the topic.
Quote from: Aglondir on October 25, 2021, 09:10:53 PM
They don't want strong empowered women. They want women (and black people, and trans, etc.) who will STF up and Do What They are Told. When they push back against The Narrative, they are no longer useful.
As one of my old players once said.
"A bunch of dykes wanting to turn me into their dyke slave."
And you see this in all fields now, not just gaming. If a woman doesnt agree with their agenda then they are kicked out and oppressed by women. Keep in mind it was a bunch of women in the 90s iteration of this mess that took over WOTC from the inside out. They've been sniping at anyone who left ever since.
Which is why I say the damage isnt going to go away like Pundit thinks. Because it didnt last time and here we are. And last time was not even a fifth as bad as this iteration.
The point I'm trying to make is that SJWs are merely a symptom, not the cause. Right now they are the ones being used by the elite to destroy western civilization. Does anyone here think a gang of Trigglypuffs could possibly organize and get anything done?
No, nobody in 1987 thought the Soviet Union would collapse back in 1987. Yes, it was hurting- but look at America right now. A ruined economy, social decay and fracturing, a 30 trillion dollar deficit...it looks worse now for us than "they" did in 1987. Trust me, I was there and just...no. I remember how surprised people were when it did happen.
Tolkein himself wanted to give his country a mythology- whatever it was called back then, its mythology was lost.
People here must realize that there isn't just an effort to destroy our culture, but to muddy it up- which is the same thing. If AD&D becomes indistinguishable from the current rubbish, if Luke Skywalker is remembered as a useless weak hermit drinking giant alien manatee milk, if Thor is a feminist woman- then the same end has been accomplished.
The world CAN be taken over, because the technology is better. Here in New York State they have those toll-structures, even driving under them they know who you are. Most people are doing 70MPH, thousands go under every day, many without EZ-Pass or the like- but they know. We live in "interesting times," and the only way to stop what is happening is to offer better choices and to tap into the frustration people feel with the modern-day garbage.
Folks, it's now or never. It CAN be done, but the opposition never rests and has been at this for a long, long time. NOBODY in 1981 would have believed me if I described 2021, nobody. Yet here we are. I rest my case.
QuoteDoes anyone here think a gang of Trigglypuffs could possibly organize and get anything done?
Yes. Indeed, yeah. No problem. Thing is unlike 20-30 years ago, power of social media i like really really huge thing.
So all wicked tumblerinas, and twitterati can easily find each other, and feed each others outrage.
But of course not just them even if game is skewed in favour of left and liberals. Social media allowed also conservatists, reactionary, nationalists, libertarians to find each other, and organize. Meet other folk of your own, which was not easy even in relatively right-wingish country as mine. And while our believes are of course widely superior to anything left-ey, there's quite a lot of basement dwelling nerds around, and well internet helped to organize, even though generally speaking we're suited to it not that much (maybe better than tumblerinas, but there is unfortunately more tumblerinas that Catholic Monarchists, oh well.)
QuoteNo, nobody in 1987 thought the Soviet Union would collapse back in 1987. Yes, it was hurting- but look at America right now. A ruined economy, social decay and fracturing, a 30 trillion dollar deficit...it looks worse now for us than "they" did in 1987. Trust me, I was there and just...no. I remember how surprised people were when it did happen.
Sure they did. Maybe not like dissolve into 15 states (though aside maybe of Ukraine they did not mean much as Russia is just so big chunk of USSR), but like fall as political empire. Dissolution of Warsaw Pact. It was all in air, and democratic, antisocialist opposition in countries of Eastern Europe was still quite vital.
QuoteTolkein himself wanted to give his country a mythology- whatever it was called back then, its mythology was lost.
This mythology was non-existent because English as a people are relatively young nation, and their origins are well documented which makes mythologization bit harder.
So sure Tolkien wanted to do it - but it was artificial project. English cannot have classic type of mythology any more than other young nations.
Quoteif Luke Skywalker is remembered as a useless weak hermit drinking giant alien manatee milk
With all grievances about TLJ, I think most people shall remember Luke totally owning Kylo Ren as hologram. (Not to mention - Luke was really really bad Jedi material in OT, and people just forgot).
Quoteif Thor is a feminist woman- then the same end has been accomplished.
But you know various people along way get Mjolnir and Thor-like powers and it's there from like 80's or something. Not to mention Thor from the beginning was travesty upon original mythology?
QuoteThe world CAN be taken over, because the technology is better. Here in New York State they have those toll-structures, even driving under them they know who you are. Most people are doing 70MPH, thousands go under every day, many without EZ-Pass or the like- but they know. We live in "interesting times," and the only way to stop what is happening is to offer better choices and to tap into the frustration people feel with the modern-day garbage.
Yeah, tell it to Afghans. I mean developed countries can invigilate their population better indeed they can. But that's hardly the world. The world is like 200 countries. Of which I'd say about 10 has imperial potential or ambitions or both. And neither is strong enough to take whole cake. No US, no Russia, no China.