My family and I recently received a large inheritance from a relation, and are planning on opening a game store in the Salt Lake area. Before we moved here, we ran a successful video store, but don't have a lot of input as to what the larger gaming community wants. Aside from the obvious (Good service, knowledgeable staff, etc.) what would you like to see in a game store? Anything from seating arrangements to tricked-out gaming tables, if you had an unlimited amount of money to game with, how would you use it? And what products are, to you, essential for what your group does?
Also, if anyone here happens to already own a similar store, we'd also like to see some financial numbers to find out exactly how much we could afford to spend on inventory.
Thanks in advance for any input!
My dream game store would look like the internet. Forget the store and invest in a website, trust me.
Probably keep the RPG section to 10' or less and push board and card games.
2 private gaming rooms with comfy chairs and low centre tables. One with of a forest scene/generic scenic landscape painted on the walls and the other with a space vista. A snack/pop machine. A clean and well maintained bathroom. At least 5 Bookshelves devoted to RPGs, 3 with new products and 2 with used/oop RPGs. A good selection of miniatures, paints, and painting supplies. A magazine rack carrying a wide range of hobby mags. The rest of the store can be devoted to board games/ccgs, which will likely be the main source of income. In general, clean, spatious enough that its never necessary to turn sideways to pass somebody, and friendly-but-not-too-friendly staff. No strange smells. Air-conditioning/extensive fans as necessary to the climate.
That said, there was something magical about the out-of -the-way, dimly lit gamestores of my youth. Just as there's something to be said for the feeling of a small single-proprietor bookstore, which is much the same. Many gamestores these days seem more corporate in design, like they belong in a mall or as part of a franchise. It may cost some foot traffic, but kudos if you can give your store an individual feel, in look and design.
You'll be pissing away fifty grand plus on a modest non flashy game store, which won't be selling any PDFs over the counter, and probably won't be selling much period. Five grand will get you a swinging website with a decent marketing spread. If that works out think about the gentleman's club afterwards.
Every single game store I know of has closed, as have most of the comic shops and videogame shops. Don't waste your money.
What a freaking horrific idea. As much as I love this hobby, I'd rather open a donut shop*. The American people love donuts. Games involving reading hundreds of pages??? Not so much.
But I do business consults so here's my 2 cents:
1) There is a store owner who published a column on RPG.net. Find that column and read everything. Twice. Then contact the dude and ask him questions.
2) Find other bloggers who own game stores. Read all their stuff too. It is imperative that you get first hand info from people who have succeeded and people who failed.
3) If you do not have a business background and management background, you have a metric fuckton of stuff to learn before you can open a business. Better to delay opening your store for 2 years than spend all your capital to have to close your store in 2 years. Remember, people with lots of small business experience have stores that fail miserably.
4) Ask on BGG.com, CCG forums, Minis forums and other RPG forums about favorite game stores. Ask why they are favs? Ask how much do people spend at these stores? Because "its a great store" =/= "I spend money there"
5) Once you have that list, go on a road trip. Visit those stores. I would recommend calling/emailing in advance with the owners and see if some of them will let you take them to lunch or dinner. Take them somewhere nice and pick their brains.
Endgame in Oakland, California, Gator Games in San Mateo, California and Game Empire in Pasadena, California would be my three personal recommendations.
6) Think beyond the ordinary. Small business retail is a dead end. Amazon and online sellers can kick your ass on price and selection. But wait, what can you deliver beyond price and selection? Those small business retail stores that can answer that question can do nicely.
I am a big fan of Game Empire because they are a hub of the local gaming community because they have events every day, almost all backed up by active Meetup Groups. Check out their calendar for the month.
http://toucharcade.com/2013/08/06/new-dungeons-dragons-game-will-let-you-change-the-forgotten-realms/
7) Remember that you are selling a NICHE LUXURY item. Nobody needs games. There are plenty of free game on the web, plenty of cheap stuff on eBay and innumerable other entertainment options available. Thus, you must take cues from local business who also cater to Luxury Niches. Your customer base must have lots of easy disposable income. The lower middle class is becoming a questionable friend for your wares - especially with those who care more about price than amenities.
Good luck...or better yet, run for your life!!!
*Actually, I would not open a donut shop. I'd open up a high end classy next-gen Medical Marijuana dispensary in LA and create a totally trendy MJ club that I could reproduce in several locations.
Quote from: The Traveller;717247My dream game store would look like the internet. Forget the store and invest in a website, trust me.
Doesn't RPGNow/DTRPG pretty much have a monopoly on PDF sales?
And I'm sure Amazon has a near one on internet book sales.
Exceptions being Paizo, which sells their own stuff, and resellers like Noble Knight. But even in that arena, there are a heck of a lot fewer resellers than their used to be.
Quote from: JeremyR;717263Doesn't RPGNow/DTRPG pretty much have a monopoly on PDF sales?
And I'm sure Amazon has a near one on internet book sales.
Exceptions being Paizo, which sells their own stuff, and resellers like Noble Knight. But even in that arena, there are a heck of a lot fewer resellers than their used to be.
And Altavista used to rule the search engine market. I'm not saying try to sell games from a wordpress blog, but a sufficiently innovative competitor could certainly carve a hefty niche. The existing RPG sales sites are nothing to write home about, to put it mildly.
In any case you're gambling a small sum on a website with a decent chance of making it back versus a much, much larger sum on a retail premises with, in my opinion, zero chance of making it back. The FLGS is dead as disco, baby.
Honestly, finding an online ordering site whose site navigation isn't ten years out of date is pretty rare. Gamestore location sites are even worse. And Amazon is a bit cluttered, and its vast stock can actually count against it when searching for specific products.
A well-designed online store with easy navigation and a decent search function is a valuable commodity right now, I would hazard.
My LFGS is doing pretty well.
They have 2 branches. One in the city, one in the suburbs.
The suburbs branch has a big gaming area, room for about 50 gaming tables.
The guy who owns the store REALLY caters for MTG (and other Card trading games) meetups and charges them a little each to use the rooms.
He's got massive support for board games, of which I've bought a few there.
I've not bought ANY RPGs there, as it's really hard for him to get in what I want, as I'm mostly into Indie stuff that I buy in PDF format or use POD.
He also has a massive comic section. I also spend money on comics, as one of my kids is into comics, so she spends her pocket money in there.
Whilst we're there I browse the store and I've noticed he's been getting in Kickstarter stuff in there. For example I got a Dice game called "Dungeon roll" which was via Kickstarter. It was priced at a price range that it was an impulse buy.
He also hosts min-conventions (for free) and that attracts a LOT of people.
I recently went to a mini-con there and noticed lots of people going to that mini-con also bought some RPG material, Wargame stuff, comics, and card trading games stuff there, I expect a lot of purchases were on a whim as they were already there.
He also sells snacks, junk food etc for people gaming at his tables, which sells pretty well.
In addition to that he knows his stuff and is receptive to questions and new ideas. I think he genuinely likes gaming and gaming people and it shows.
One other thing, the shops are open 7 days a week as well and all day. so it;s really accessible for those who work on odd days.
I expect the shop's been there for years and is very well known, so an established business.
For me that's pretty ideal.
I do wish he could provide the indie RPGs I get (printed from DTRPG), as I'd then be supporting RPGs in his shop, which would help him out, but I guess that's not easy to do for a LFGS.
All I know is that I would name it "Virgin Territory"
Community, Community, Community.
Quote from: The Traveller;717247My dream game store would look like the internet. Forget the store and invest in a website, trust me.
There's a way to do both.
My FLGS is Cool Stuff Inc. They have a huge gaming area out front, some small amount of product on display, loose/singles click minis under the display case (along with snacks and so forth)...and (except see below), that's it.
The other thing they've got is a series of computer terminals, all pointed at the store's website. You can go to the store, place an "online" order, and it generates an order number at the front counter. Once you're done shopping, you walk up to the front and take your item(s), and pay for them there when they pull them out of the back stock.
It works really, really well, I think, from a shrink control standpoint. All the stuff has images up on the webpage so you can see it beforehand. I like their system a whole bunch. Oh, and despite being an "internet business" with deep discounts, they're a brick and mortar too so I can get my shop on.
I can do my order at home and go in to pick it up as well if I want.
To my mind it's a damn near perfect model.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;717282The other thing they've got is a series of computer terminals, all pointed at the store's website. You can go to the store, place an "online" order, and it generates an order number at the front counter. Once you're done shopping, you walk up to the front and take your item(s), and pay for them there when they pull them out of the back stock.
It works really, really well, I think, from a shrink control standpoint.
Wow. I'd be faster out of that store than you could say, "Amazon".
I hate Amazon, I love b&m stores.
The one advantage physical stores have over the internet is browsability of their product. Let me thumb through books (and no, not just the sample pages Amazon, Drivethrough, or Lulu want me to see), and you will see money from me.
I left stores where I was already decided what I wanted because they wouldn't crack open the shrinkwrap of another product. So instead of a chance of two sales, they got
none. (Hello Leisure Games, hello Morgenwelt, hello Fantasy-In...)
And kudos to Monte Cook for obstructing the cover of Numenéra with a leaflet that says, "
Retailer! Remove this shrinkwrap! (...) This shrinkwrap is for transit puposes only. Be sure to remove it before displaying the book so your customers can see what's inside."
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;717293Wow. I'd be faster out of that store than you could say, "Amazon".
I hate Amazon, I love b&m stores.
The one advantage physical stores have over the internet is browsability of their product. Let me thumb through books (and no, not just the sample pages Amazon, Drivethrough, or Lulu want me to see), and you will see money from me.
I left stores where I was already decided what I wanted because they wouldn't crack open the shrinkwrap of another product. So instead of a chance of two sales, they got none. (Hello Leisure Games, hello Morgenwelt, hello Fantasy-In...)
And kudos to Monte Cook for obstructing the cover of Numenéra with a leaflet that says, "Retailer! Remove this shrinkwrap! (...) This shrinkwrap is for transit puposes only. Be sure to remove it before displaying the book so your customers can see what's inside."
I like browsing too. The biggest overall problem is the Best-Buy effect. Customer walks into a store, spends a little while flipping through possible desired products, whips out the smartphone and sees which online place has it for the lowest price, and buys from there. It sucks but it happens quite a bit.
Then these same idiots bitch when the stores close and they have nowhere to window shop.
I know. In my store I had one customer who browsed board games, with the catalog of Germany's (then-)leading board game mail order store in hand.
He never ever bought something.
But that was before Amazon, Noble Knight, or similar services. And it was one customer.
Welp, they're hugely successful, so...yeah.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;717282There's a way to do both.
My FLGS is Cool Stuff Inc. They have a huge gaming area out front, some small amount of product on display, loose/singles click minis under the display case (along with snacks and so forth)...and (except see below), that's it.
The other thing they've got is a series of computer terminals, all pointed at the store's website. You can go to the store, place an "online" order, and it generates an order number at the front counter. Once you're done shopping, you walk up to the front and take your item(s), and pay for them there when they pull them out of the back stock.
It works really, really well, I think, from a shrink control standpoint. All the stuff has images up on the webpage so you can see it beforehand. I like their system a whole bunch. Oh, and despite being an "internet business" with deep discounts, they're a brick and mortar too so I can get my shop on.
I can do my order at home and go in to pick it up as well if I want.
To my mind it's a damn near perfect model.
That is brilliant! I'm passing this on to the guys at my FLGS.
Also keep in mind when talking about Coolstuff, their prices are very competitive with Amazons. Especially if you can do pickup.
I have to have mine shipped from them, but you get free shipping on 100+ dollar orders and I'm in the neighboring state so its pretty fast.
(I do most of my board and rpg game orders through them, I just rarely have a reason to go into a brick and mortar anymore, because its not necessary to meet gamers with the internet being what it is)
With Amazon et al. and the internet in general, you have to think what they can't provide and that's service. I say I'd like a playing space more than anything, so I'd say a gaming cafe over a shop. I'd want a place with food, drinks, round tables and a minimal selection of games and books. I'd want accessories for sale, miniatures, paints, paper, dice, I'd stock main gaming books but main space towards people, tables and chairs. Cater for people playing board games too, hire games hourly, table space for hours or free with X amount spent on catering.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;717443Also keep in mind when talking about Coolstuff, their prices are very competitive with Amazons. Especially if you can do pickup.
I have to have mine shipped from them, but you get free shipping on 100+ dollar orders and I'm in the neighboring state so its pretty fast.
(I do most of my board and rpg game orders through them, I just rarely have a reason to go into a brick and mortar anymore, because its not necessary to meet gamers with the internet being what it is)
Oh hell yeah. Deep, DEEP discounts. So much so that the old, established game store in these parts (1701/Sci-Fi City) had to try to meet their prices, which is unheard of. That store was hidebound.
Also it should be pointed out that the store is VERY clean, brightly lit, windows on all sides, they have a code of conduct and dress, etc.
It's really the future of B&M hobby stores, I think. The perfect hybridization of online shopping and store shopping.
Also they have tiered discounts for loyal customers based on how much you've spent with them. I'm almost to the highest tier.
I might have a spending problem (more of that is board games though than RPGs, as RPGs unless you buy tons and tons of stuff you will never use, or are a magpie collector, doesn't really create the level of spending that board game playing can).
Quote from: The Traveller;717257You'll be pissing away fifty grand plus on a modest non flashy game store, which won't be selling any PDFs over the counter, and probably won't be selling much period. Five grand will get you a swinging website with a decent marketing spread. If that works out think about the gentleman's club afterwards.
Every single game store I know of has closed, as have most of the comic shops and videogame shops. Don't waste your money.
He said with unlimited money. If I had that, my game store totally WOULD sell pdf's over the counter. I'd throw in for one of these (http://ondemandbooks.com/retail_markets.php) and give them the option to buy whatever they wanted, in hardcopy. And I'd work on contracts with guys like Brett and Brendan to get their stuff on shelves for the walk-in exposure.
Then snacks and space to play in. Sell minis and cards as additional items. I'm not a businessman overall, and I'd probably fuck it all up in the real world, but that's how my dream store would work.
Oh, and we'd sell meat pies. Don't ask what type of meat, if you have to ask, you don't want one.
No stink.
No creepers.
No stinky creepers.
No lecturers behind the counter.
My ideal FLGS would look closer to a Starbucks. Beverages, quick snacks, free Wi-Fi with a portal leading to many RPG related sites, Drivethrurpg, lulu, etc... Maybe work out a deal with those on-line retailers to discount purchases through the shop or free shipping. Primary selection of print RPGs would be a used RPG section with new items being highlighted at the counter in limited quantities plus dice, pens, pencils, notebooks, etc... Maybe even laser printer services. An rpg store but one that wouldn't scare the bejeesus out of someone just looking for a cup of coffee or needing to have something printed on the fly.
Quote from: Evansheer;717494No stink.
No creepers.
No stinky creepers.
No lecturers behind the counter.
Yes. Yes yes yes. CSI is like that.
Quote from: Piestrio;717281Community, Community, Community.
Oh hell yes.
We have a local FLGS. (http://www.greenfieldgames.com/) It's right on Main Street, in the middle of the downtown.
But see, this is the county seat and the center of business for Massachusetts' most rural county. It's a small town of 17,000, and the downtown is a throwback to an earlier era -- a lot of foot traffic, a lot of small eclectic businesses. Many artisan shops, several bookstores, a health food market, a string of churches, and a
lot of intellectuals -- it's not that Greenfield has a major poetry competition that is reported above-the-fold on the front page of the newspaper, it's that there are
two such competitions here.
And the shop is brightly lit, and spacious, and neat as a pin. Its RPG section is relatively modest -- most of the shelf space is devoted to board and family games. There are plenty of gaming tables and a number of games played, but of course the big ticket events are the CCGs.
Even with that, I rarely patronize it. I game out of my living room, as I have for decades. The couple times (and it's only been that many) I've needed to get gaming books since I've moved here, I've ordered them online. When I've sold stuff, I've sold it to Noble Knight. I've needed replacement dice, but I've ordered that too, from online, because they'll sell them to me in lots of less than 12-in-a-pack.
The FLGS must be doing well, because it opened up a new outlet in the county south of us, but there are just too many gamers who don't need them now ... and those of us who never did.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;717473He said with unlimited money. If I had that, my game store totally WOULD sell pdf's over the counter. I'd throw in for one of these (http://ondemandbooks.com/retail_markets.php) and give them the option to buy whatever they wanted, in hardcopy. And I'd work on contracts with guys like Brett and Brendan to get their stuff on shelves for the walk-in exposure.
Then snacks and space to play in. Sell minis and cards as additional items. I'm not a businessman overall, and I'd probably fuck it all up in the real world, but that's how my dream store would work.
Oh, and we'd sell meat pies. Don't ask what type of meat, if you have to ask, you don't want one.
Well yeah, I assumed unlimited meant some six figure sum.
If I had unlimited money I'd buy a Bavarian castle and move it brick by brick to a freshly demolished area in Manhattan, wherein it would be decked out with wood panelling and expensive antiques, roaring fireplaces (with air conditioning as well as the fires during the summer), stained glass windows and genre appropriate music piped to each of the thousands of game rooms, offset by the sound of players rolling gem studded dice on rosewood tables from their plush leather seats.
I'd found a monastic order to maintain a giant library of all RPGs in the castle, paying them exorbitant sums to devote their lives to the upkeep of the fortress of fun, and I'd build a tall tower to gaze down with imperious disdain on the SJWs milling about outside protesting about the way I didn't spend my fortune on I-only-have-a-gender-studies-degree-employ-me causes.
And meat pies, excellent idea. And not the ones with the air gap under the pastry top either, I mean packed right to the brim.
Quote from: The Traveller;717568Well yeah, I assumed unlimited meant some six figure sum.
If I had unlimited money I'd buy a Bavarian castle and move it brick by brick to a freshly demolished area in Manhattan, wherein it would be decked out with wood panelling and expensive antiques, roaring fireplaces (with air conditioning as well as the fires during the summer), stained glass windows and genre appropriate music piped to each of the thousands of game rooms, offset by the sound of players rolling gem studded dice on rosewood tables from their plush leather seats.
I'd found a monastic order to maintain a giant library of all RPGs in the castle, paying them exorbitant sums to devote their lives to the upkeep of the fortress of fun, and I'd build a tall tower to gaze down with imperious disdain on the SJWs milling about outside protesting about the way I didn't spend my fortune on I-only-have-a-gender-studies-degree-employ-me causes.
And meat pies, excellent idea. And not the ones with the air gap under the pastry top either, I mean packed right to the brim.
Absolutely perfect, I'll get right on it. ;)
One I'd own and that'd bring me a reasonable profit past the year one mark. With space for me to play RPGs. Not necessarily people.
Quote from: Evansheer;717494No stink.
No creepers.
No stinky creepers.
No lecturers behind the counter.
YES.
Be polite. Don't argue with customers about what they want*. Don't let the store turn into a hang-out for sneering misanthropes, known and notorious molesters, vocal bigots, obnoxious bellowing loud guys, threatening creepazoids, and barely-functional mutards who think the place is a Pop Culture Debate Society and won't just leave customers the fuck alone. FOR THE LOVE OF FUCKING CHRIST DON'T ALLOW SMOKING IN THE STORE regardless of your personal habits or the air will turn bluer than a 90's L.A. cigar club's and any paper product that's been on the shelf more than a day will be ruined.
I would gladly spend time and money at games/comics stores if any more than a handful could meet the above meager criteria. I have very fond memories of stores from my youth but now all of the ones in driving distance are total dumps (Admittedly I live near near a city where the "Geek" scene is particularly toxic).
Part of the reason I now use Amazon to get game stuff is price and convenience, but a bigger part is just wanting to avoid belligerent freaks. *I have never had that problem at any other type of business except comics or games stores.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;717769Part of the reason I now use Amazon to get game stuff is price and convenience, but a bigger part is just wanting to avoid belligerent freaks.
This.
There are six game stores in my city. I will only go into one of them because it is the only one in which I have not had a negative experience. I will bend over backwards to help those guys in any way I can because they and the other customers who frequent there are not douchebags to customers.
huh, lots of crossposting these days...
Anyhow, I've got mine...well, the castle idea up thread would be nice.
I'm not making any money and I've kept my day job but I'm focusing on selling games I like and simply not carrying those I don't. That's better than any sermon on how crap the top three or four games are don't you think?
When people ask I just say there's four or five places in town where you can get that stuff but only one place in town where you can get what I'm carrying.
Why should I race out and get in the Magic price wars around here and clutter up my shop and tables with people I don't want in my shop? I've games a lot and promoted gaming a lot and built a lot of scenery and painted a lot of miniatures and had a lot of fun.
So you can shove your board games and Magic up your tail pipe for all I care.
Quote from: David Johansen;717780huh, lots of crossposting these days...
Anyhow, I've got mine...well, the castle idea up thread would be nice.
I'm not making any money and I've kept my day job but I'm focusing on selling games I like and simply not carrying those I don't. That's better than any sermon on how crap the top three or four games are don't you think?
When people ask I just say there's four or five places in town where you can get that stuff but only one place in town where you can get what I'm carrying.
Why should I race out and get in the Magic price wars around here and clutter up my shop and tables with people I don't want in my shop? I've games a lot and promoted gaming a lot and built a lot of scenery and painted a lot of miniatures and had a lot of fun.
So you can shove your board games and Magic up your tail pipe for all I care.
Calm down, Bernard Black.
Quote from: jeff37923;717772There are six game stores in my city. I will only go into one of them because it is the only one in which I have not had a negative experience.
Surely you mean it's the only one you haven't been permanently barred from for shrieking at customers that they should be interpreting Greyhawk through Traveller?
I've helped manage one and was a couple days away from signing on the dotted line to open one of my own.
FME, you need knowledgeable staff who aren't going to be shitting on a product they don't like. It's not about what they like they are there to sell product for you.
Have a staff that plays at the store. (Not during their hours of work). People see staff members who also play on their off time at the store, will remember that.
Keep miniature tables separate and distinct from roleplaying/CCG tables. I would do 4 x 6 mini tables, 5-6ft circular rpg tables, and 30" x 60" CCG tables.
Keep the game room separate from the store, so you are able to lock the store and keep the game room open.
I would have your own store cards, that get scanned at every purchase. That does a couple things, monitors a customer's purchases, and allows for 'discount days' or other specials for card owners. There is more you can do with it as well, depending on various things.
Keep an active calendar.
Don't let any one group dominate a particular table. I would have a sign-up sheet that only goes 1 month out that players/groups have to signup on(I would do it on a website only usable at the store)
Have leagues, for miniature, card, boardgames where participation is more important than winning. Down here in Florida watching a league fall apart because people lose one game and quit because the stores haven't figured out that it's not about the winning as it's about the playing, drives me friggin nuts.
Cool Stuff opened up a satellite store in my area this past June. It's currently nothing more than a M:tG spot and discount retailer, that 25-30 percent off 3day turn around is nice, but they lack any other comforts. First month in they were averaging 140 Magic players per tournament though.
1) There is a store owner who published a column on RPG.net. Find that column and read everything. Twice. Then contact the dude and ask him questions. this guy is from my area, not well liked around here by most of the older gamers(never met him, that's just the gossip)
Quote from: The Traveller;717793Surely you mean it's the only one you haven't been permanently barred from for shrieking at customers that they should be interpreting Greyhawk through Traveller?
Don't disrupt the thread, Butthurt One.
Quote from: jeff37923;717808Don't disrupt the thread, Butthurt One.
Thanks for that, jeffie protocol. Also not, in fact, disrupting the thread, I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not you're underpants-on-head insane enough to behave the same way in real life that you've behaved around here.
Quote from: The Traveller;717816Thanks for that, jeffie protocol. Also not, in fact, disrupting the thread, I'm genuinely curious as to whether or not you're underpants-on-head insane enough to behave the same way in real life that you've behaved around here.
That is, in fact, Thread-disruption. Watch your step.
I've never run into belligerent freaks or catpissman or whatnot in a game store. I guess I'm just lucky? A few overly passionate guys or some players of this or that game that keep to themselves looking suspiciously at anyone not part of the clique (like Magic players exchanging cards like it's crack), sure, I've seen that, could do without it, though I just ignore people like this.
One of the greatest stores I've had the chance to visit is Drexoll Games in Vancouver. Nice selection of products, very nice people behind the counter, a few tables to play games, a good ambiance . . . it's a great place. My idea of a game store I would go to regularly to play games and buy stuff if I could.
Quote from: Benoist;718603I've never run into belligerent freaks or catpissman or whatnot in a game store. I guess I'm just lucky? A few overly passionate guys or some players of this or that game that keep to themselves looking suspiciously at anyone not part of the clique (like Magic players exchanging cards like it's crack), sure, I've seen that, could do without it, though I just ignore people like this.
You might be lucky.
There's a regular in one of my local gamestores who likes to hover near the roleplaying gamebooks and watch what you're looking at, and then lecture you on why you should be playing gurps instead.
You can tell him to fuck the fuck off, but he'll just do the same bullshit to you next time you come in. People complain, but he never seems to go away. I won't even bother trying to shop there if i see that guy.
So that's my one piece of advice for the op...make sure that your friendly and knowledgeable staff is the first point of contact that your customers have, and not some creep on a mission to convert people to the one true game.
Under-mentioned so far:
Brisk trade in and good stock of used products, all types.
Segregation from different types of games, half-walls if you can swing them. Or maybe lattice. Something you can see through that still gives a feeling of territory.
Hot food. I know that's a whole other deal than your typical $3 bag of chips, but I would personally pay more for something I thought someone put some effort into, even if it was just concessions.
Edit: two more...
Store copies of products you can check out and try, and...
Staff with the ability, knowledge, and people skills to demo it for/with you if you'd like.
Quote from: mcbobbo;718613Under-mentioned so far:
Brisk trade in and good stock of used products, all types.
Segregation from different types of games, half-walls if you can swing them. Or maybe lattice. Something you can see through that still gives a feeling of territory.
Hot food. I know that's a whole other deal than your typical $3 bag of chips, but I would personally pay more for something I thought someone put some effort into, even if it was just concessions.
Edit: two more...
Store copies of products you can check out and try, and...
Staff with the ability, knowledge, and people skills to demo it for/with you if you'd like.
I don't know about hot food...it seems like that would create a lot more licensing and upkeep issues. I don't think that vending machines or non perishable snack walls are subject to health inspection, and the vendors cycle your merchandise for you.
Good idea though, on having the staff demo products.
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;718619I don't know about hot food...it seems like that would create a lot more licensing and upkeep issues. I don't think that vending machines or non perishable snack walls are subject to health inspection, and the vendors cycle your merchandise for you.
Yes, and I suspect it might need to be the main line of business to work, too. But it's still a dream of mine... A FLGS/Geek Pub mashup, if you will.
Plus we did hot food in High School for basketball games and the like that would be a fine start and not too tough to manage. Popcorn popper, deep fryer, hot cheese, stuff like that.
Ooh! And ice cream. Maybe snow cones.
I probably should have eaten lunch...
Quote from: mcbobbo;718629Yes, and I suspect it might need to be the main line of business to work, too. But it's still a dream of mine... A FLGS/Geek Pub mashup, if you will.
Plus we did hot food in High School for basketball games and the like that would be a fine start and not too tough to manage. Popcorn popper, deep fryer, hot cheese, stuff like that.
Ooh! And ice cream. Maybe snow cones.
I probably should have eaten lunch...
I can see it - but once you start thinking of a tapas bar, you've gone too far.
We do, in fact, have the necessary permits and licenses to sell food, and we're planning on it. What do you guys think about having music playing softly in the background? Not loudly enough to interrupt, and it wouldn't be audible from the RPG tables, but just ambience?
Quote from: Benoist;718603I've never run into belligerent freaks or catpissman or whatnot in a game store. I guess I'm just lucky? A few overly passionate guys or some players of this or that game that keep to themselves looking suspiciously at anyone not part of the clique (like Magic players exchanging cards like it's crack), sure, I've seen that, could do without it, though I just ignore people like this.
I think a lot more people post "OMG let me tell you about the GROSS CAT PISS MAN who's ALWAYS there!!!" anecdotes than post "No, I've never run into one" anecdotes.
Heck, I've been stumbling into FLGSs, on and off, for pushing 40 years now. Of course I've run into characters ... the ones rabidly proselytizing for their system, the ones who'd inform strangers how cool and powerful their favorite characters were, the ones who'd clumsily ogle anything female. In my experience, there wasn't a higher percentage of idiots or jerks than in any other walk of life.
And, when all is said and done, I can't forget the bunch of strangers in the summer of 1980 who were shopping at a FLGS at the same time I was. We left around the same time, headed for the same subway stop, and one hailed me to ask me about the product I'd bought. They wound up inviting me to hang at Boston Common with them. By Labor Day, the lady who'd invited me and I were in a relationship, and she convinced me to transfer out to UMass, where I met my first wife, found the place I'd eventually live, ultimately met my
current wife, and there you have it.
I rather think that the people you meet in a FLGS balance out.
Quote from: XenocideSoldier;718688What do you guys think about having music playing softly in the background? Not loudly enough to interrupt, and it wouldn't be audible from the RPG tables, but just ambience?
I think that would be great with a caveat that the background music must match the genre of the RPG that is dominantly being played. Otherwise you could have the Star Wars soundtrack playing while the Players and Keeper are plumbing the depths of Cthulhu's Lair.
I will add this anecdote. In an AD&D2 game at the FLGS my character kept slipping on the last of four Dex checks to make it up an iced over stream bed and gradual waterfall - there was no damage with a fail, sliding down the ice, I would just have to start the process over again at the bottom. The maddenning part was that one of the MtG Players had his boombox in there and was playing "Cuban Pete" just loud enough to hear for the whole thing....
Xenocide, if you are really going to burn the family inheritance, what's your plan for pre-launch and post-launch marketing? Have you looked into how you will achieve SEO that targets locals? Or is this a Field of Dreams, build it and they will come scenario?
Quote from: Benoist;718603I've never run into belligerent freaks or catpissman or whatnot in a game store.
I've run into more freaks in non-game stores than game stores. The whole catpissman thing is mostly a forum bogeyman.
Quote from: mcbobbo;718629But it's still a dream of mine... A FLGS/Geek Pub mashup, if you will.
Hot food in a gamestore = grease stains on unsold merchandise AND you get 1D6 Roaches on your own personal Wandering Monsters table. Don't forget that 11 year old kid who spills his Coke on the $60 Hardcover then walks out...even with his mom there. They're never gonna pay for it.
I can see a Geek Pub working in the UK where pub culture is a central part of their community. In the US? Not so sure.
You would need the right combination of factors to make it work out. A huge geek population, so a tech hub like Silicon Valley, Portland, Raliegh or Austin maybe. But then you'd need to convince locals to make your place their prime social hangout. Challenging, but possible.
Quote from: XenocideSoldier;718688What do you guys think about having music playing softly in the background? Not loudly enough to interrupt, and it wouldn't be audible from the RPG tables, but just ambience?
The problem is sound travels and its doubtful a game store will be large enough to overcome that.
My favorite burger joint is Grill'em All. It's a heavy metal themed eatery and they crank the metal all day all night and its awesome. It certainly adds to the ambiance. http://grillemalltruck.com/
If it was my store, I would play music in the retail/food area and accept it bleeding into the game play area - epic movie and video game soundtracks on rotation along with some Mandatory Metallica.
Quote from: XenocideSoldier;718688We do, in fact, have the necessary permits and licenses to sell food, and we're planning on it. What do you guys think about having music playing softly in the background? Not loudly enough to interrupt, and it wouldn't be audible from the RPG tables, but just ambience?
It's good for ambience - but you have to be careful.
Pop music can be a disruption if there are games happening in the store.
Instrumental music - classical, baroque, film scores, etc. are better, but you have to very them or else your staff will go insane from the repetition.
Quote from: Spinachcat;718704My favorite burger joint is Grill'em All. It's a heavy metal themed eatery and they crank the metal all day all night and its awesome. It certainly adds to the ambiance. http://grillemalltruck.com/
If it was my store, I would play music in the retail/food area and accept it bleeding into the game play area - epic movie and video game soundtracks on rotation along with some Mandatory Metallica.
Are you in LA?
Quote from: Spinachcat;718704I can see a Geek Pub working in the UK where pub culture is a central part of their community. In the US? Not so sure.
Green's Tavern in Knoxville, TN has been going strong for the past three years without a hitch and it is a nerd/geek pub.
I'm picturing almost a yin-yang setup. On one end are televisions, tight cozy tables/booths, and beer. As far from that as is possible from that are curmudgeonly wargamers carefully positioning their freshly painted figures on an awesome felt table (or similar). Yet it isn't so far across that the management can't at least see some of what's going on in both places from the counter in the middle.
One big problem is the mixing of kids and beer. In a hobbyshop it seems sure to bring on the pitchforks. But for whatever reason it's totally legit at a sports bar like BWW. So that's an issue. Maybe nix the beer. But I have to think you'd make a killing on flagons and mead. Plus wine makes a lot of gamers relax enough to enjoy their game of choice. It's a conundrum.
Maybe a wristband policy and a strict limit? Like you get a band by showing ID and then can order. Each order is a punch in the band. Two/Three punches in the band and it comes off. ANYONE handling alcohol without a wristband is ejected, no questions asked.
The other problem I see is an environment where only the middle folk are truly comfortable. Assuming there are geeks that fear bars and bar patrons that fear geeks, you're left with the middle.
A lot depends on the state's liquor laws. In TN, it is absolutely illegal to allow a minor (under 21) into a bar - a bar owner can even get busted if you are being nice and let a kid in just to use the bathroom.
Game Empire in Pasadena, California (http://gameempirepasadena.com/) is pretty close to my dream. I just wish it were closer.
I would suggest looking at pictures of their store. Though I remember one thing they said that they thought was key, that's not in pictures. And that is they have a dedicated women's room, in addition to a men's room, and the bathrooms are always clean. In fact, the whole store is always clean and not cluttered, it has wide aisles, and it's employees are never so engaged in conversation with their gamer friends that they fail to greet a customer walking in the door and ask at least once or twice if they could use some assistance finding something.
Nothing turns me off to a game store more than the uninviting dark narrow aisles cluttered with stuff, and employees who won't even look up from their conversation to even notice you're in the store. Which sadly describes most game stores I've been to for the last 5 years, other than Game Empire.
Quote from: Spinachcat;717258I am a big fan of Game Empire because they are a hub of the local gaming community because they have events every day, almost all backed up by active Meetup Groups. Check out their calendar for the month.
http://toucharcade.com/2013/08/06/new-dungeons-dragons-game-will-let-you-change-the-forgotten-realms/
And I posted what I posted before I had read what Spinachcat said. So, if both of us came to the same conclusion about Game Empire, it's probably a sign they're doing something right.
Quote from: jeff37923;718767A lot depends on the state's liquor laws. In TN, it is absolutely illegal to allow a minor (under 21) into a bar - a bar owner can even get busted if you are being nice and let a kid in just to use the bathroom.
There's a Buffalo Wild Wings in Memphis, so how does that work? No kids allowed? Or is a sports bar not "a bar" but a restaurant?
Quote from: mcbobbo;718780There's a Buffalo Wild Wings in Memphis, so how does that work? No kids allowed? Or is a sports bar not "a bar" but a restaurant?
Memphis is about 300 or so miles away from me, so I do not know. Liquor laws may be different from county to county in Tennessee. Knox county has liqour stores and restaurants/bars may sell liquor by the drink. However, Sevier County right next to us was a dry county for decades until recently, even though you could drive 10 minutes to Gatlinburg and buy liquor from almost any streetcorner where there is a store. It is all determined locally and thus is different from location to location.
I'm pretty sure though that if a Buffalo Wild Wings served underage, that they would be fined and have their liquor license revoked. Restaurants are licensed differently than bars and have different constraints to owrk under, when our local Texas Roadhouse sold to underage they got an $8000 fine, the bartender and manager got fired, and the restaurant lost their liquor license for six months.
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;718727Are you in LA?
Hell yeah! I run Old School & 4e at the RPG meetup at Game Empire most months. I occasionally playtest stuff I write too.
Quote from: jeff37923;718752Green's Tavern in Knoxville, TN has been going strong for the past three years without a hitch and it is a nerd/geek pub.
I looked on Yelp and its got good reviews, but how is it a geek pub? Do they have RPG and/or boardgame meetups and gaming area? Do you run stuff there?
Quote from: mcbobbo;718763One big problem is the mixing of kids and beer.
Liquor laws are the issue. It's an odd divide between "restaurant" and "bar" in concern to where you can/can't have under-21s.
Quote from: mcbobbo;718763The other problem I see is an environment where only the middle folk are truly comfortable.
Perhaps that's enough of a customer base. My concern is a business without a clear identity. Is this a bar where people game? Is it a game store where people drink?
And it multiplies problems. Running a bar/restaurant X running a game store with all the problems of both businesses.
Marketing also becomes a bitch. Instead of getting "bar patrons" or getting "game store patrons", you now get "bar patrons who are gamers" which is certainly a subset of both groups.
But in a town where you have lots of bars and/or coffee houses, I do believe specializing can be beneficial...with the right marketing.
Quote from: Mistwell;718771and it's employees are never so engaged in conversation with their gamer friends that they fail to greet a customer walking in the door and ask at least once or twice if they could use some assistance finding something.
I suspect Game Empire pays their employees a higher wage then other game stores and comic stores. Chuck is a great manager, but I suspect he backs up his hiring and managing with ample incentive to draw in a brighter, more professional worker than his competition.
Much like In & Out vs. the mega-corp burger hells.
Quote from: Spinachcat;718704Hot food in a gamestore = grease stains on unsold merchandise AND you get 1D6 Roaches on your own personal Wandering Monsters table. Don't forget that 11 year old kid who spills his Coke on the $60 Hardcover then walks out...even with his mom there. They're never gonna pay for it.
I can see a Geek Pub working in the UK where pub culture is a central part of their community. In the US? Not so sure.
You would need the right combination of factors to make it work out. A huge geek population, so a tech hub like Silicon Valley, Portland, Raliegh or Austin maybe. But then you'd need to convince locals to make your place their prime social hangout. Challenging, but possible.
Fantasy Flight just updated their event center (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_npm.asp?eidm=213&epmi=s) here in Minneapolis/St. Paul to include a full kitchen and beer/wine bar. So it is possible to mix beer and gaming! Of course, I assume most would not consider them an FLGS.
Quote from: Mistwell;718771Game Empire in Pasadena, California (http://gameempirepasadena.com/) is pretty close to my dream.
Last time I was there a month or two ago, I was disappointed. One of the places I look forward to go when I visit. The rpg selection has really dropped off including used games. I left with nothing. This used to be my go to game store when I lived there. After visiting another game shop in Chicago and seeing a number of POD games being offered plus games like lotfp and dcc, I was sad to see that the selection had been reduced to what I could find here in small town western NY. The new space is great but feels like it's primarily catering to the ccg and tabletop wargaming community.
Quote from: Benoist;718603I've never run into belligerent freaks or catpissman or whatnot in a game store. I guess I'm just lucky? A few overly passionate guys or some players of this or that game that keep to themselves looking suspiciously at anyone not part of the clique (like Magic players exchanging cards like it's crack), sure, I've seen that, could do without it, though I just ignore people like this.
One of the greatest stores I've had the chance to visit is Drexoll Games in Vancouver. Nice selection of products, very nice people behind the counter, a few tables to play games, a good ambiance . . . it's a great place. My idea of a game store I would go to regularly to play games and buy stuff if I could.
Amen. I love that store. Been way too long since I last visited BC.
I've never run into skeevy people in gaming stores, so maybe I've been lucky, too. Folks have generally been really nice to me and not creepy at all, whether I'm there by myself or with my SO. I've heard stories, though, some from a friend who managed a local store for years, so I'm sure they're out there.
The single most obnoxious person I ever ran into in a gaming venue was at a con. Not a catpisstype, but the I AM NEVER WRONG AND YOU WILL ALL LISTEN TO MY MONOLOGUE dude. We made a point of dodging him at dinner time because he made horrible scenes in restaurants. I bet his FLGS just luuuuvs when he comes by to foist his brilliance on them.
Quote from: Spinachcat;718866Hell yeah! I run Old School & 4e at the RPG meetup at Game Empire most months. I occasionally playtest stuff I write too.
I don't live there, but my wife is from venice beach and we're looking at moving to LA in the next couple of years.
How's the gaming scene there?
Quote from: Spinachcat;718866I looked on Yelp and its got good reviews, but how is it a geek pub? Do they have RPG and/or boardgame meetups and gaming area? Do you run stuff there?
We've got a wall shelf of boardgames and a few RPGs. The owners are both gamers and they decided that the clientele they wanted to cater to were nerds, geeks, and restaurant people - the running joke is that the first major fight in Green's Tavern will be over
Star Wars vs.
Star Trek. I've run
Labyrinth Lord,
d6 Star Wars, and
Traveller there at the bar. Others come in for their weekly game of whatever (I work during the week so I miss the VtM and the AD&D/OSRIC groups). A lot of folks are enjoying hands of
Cards Against Humanity recently. Every Saturday Night is Doctor Who on BBC America and every Sunday Night while it plays, is Zombie Night with The Walking Dead (we have a couple of bar regulars who were zombie extras in The Walking Dead) so it beats the Hell out of sitting in a sports bar with people screaming and yelling.
I spent Christmas Night there downing pints of Strongbow Cider and watching both the Doctor Who Christmas Special and the Doctor Who 50th Anniversary Special - not a bad night for a guy whose family has all passed away.
There is a comic book store and a game store down at the corner of the strip mall, so the whole place can be considered nerd/geek territory.
I can't say that I've run any games recently because I'm up for a Supervisor's job at work and my schedule may change abruptly if I get it.
Quote from: Dana;718911The single most obnoxious person I ever ran into in a gaming venue was at a con. Not a catpisstype, but the I AM NEVER WRONG AND YOU WILL ALL LISTEN TO MY MONOLOGUE dude. We made a point of dodging him at dinner time because he made horrible scenes in restaurants. I bet his FLGS just luuuuvs when he comes by to foist his brilliance on them.
Most likely the dude is a Con Gamer. They being the people who burned all the bridges in their local areas so the only way to game was by going to Cons. Now with all the new places to go to on the net though... they can get their gaming in by hanging out at G+ and other such places.
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;718914I don't live there, but my wife is from venice beach and we're looking at moving to LA in the next couple of years.
How's the gaming scene there?
Well, we do have a long running a decent set of gaming conventions (http://www.strategicon.net/) (3/year) that happen here every year. And there are a few good game stores, though the mediocre ones outnumber the good ones. There's an excellent monthly board game mini-con too. And of course, we have a lot of colleges.
And you probably have an RPG group's worth of posters here on this board that live in LA.
My dream game store would be a joint Lulu/DriveThruRPG physical storefront complete with on-the-spot PoD, at the corner of my street. Sure, they'd have a few books and minis and gewgaws out there to display, but the chief business would be to pick up anything from their PoD catalogue without paying the (prohibitive, to me) shipping rates.
My local seems to be doing pretty well. 13,000 square feet standalone building. Stocks multiple copies of every RPG book, euro game, wargame, CCG, and miniature published in North America. Fantasy and SF novels. Has tens of thousands of out of print items. Enough table space for 70 or 80 gamers. Place is packed every weekend.
Testimonial video (http://www.sentrybox.com/)
Sentry Box tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gO7f_e5OrIk)
If you're looking for the gold standard of FLGs, that's it. Hint: own the building.
The Sentry Box is indeed fantastic. I remember back when they were in beside Similing Budda tattooes and then on the corner of a few blocks from there. I don't remember their original location which I am told was small and isolated.
I'd love to be able to take a store to that level. However, I'm ill suited to it being the D&D and Magic and Warhammer hating grognard that I am. Still there's only one of those three with no redeeming qualities beyond its ability to pump wallets for change.
I may have to think about it more. I don't know, I'd rather bring in Osprey and Fireforge and Northstar (especially a nice Louis XIV pike and shotte army) and Avatars of War and Khurassin (dudes! how can you not have a retail discount? not even a bulk discount!) But little by little down the line I suppose I'll have to bring in some Magic and D&D. Warhammer takes a big chunk of change up front and has very restrictive policies so it'll be further down the line.
On the other hand I might get in a bad mood and give my notice on the 31st and blow the stock out on e-bay. That's one nice thing about being little is the option of just walking away is always on the table.
I know it's been discussed upthread, but my ideal game store would look like a coffee shop. It would have tables, and coffee machines, and serve food, and have cups with stupid names which I'd change every week and everyone would just ignore and say "large" anyway. In fact, to the untrained eye, you could probably mistake it for a coffee shop. But it would also, coincidentally, be a gamer-friendly space, with tables suitable for CCG and RPG play (But not wargames like 3.xfinder or Warhammer, mainly due to space required) and doing gamer-type hours (Probably 12 - 11 weekdays).
Stock-wise, probably not much (Because this if a coffee shop), but the willingness to order (I'm sure there are some people who still refuse to use Amazon) and stocks of the recent CCG releases. Just a few high-turnover gaming items, really.
We've actually discussed this locally, and the problem in this city is that retail space is too expensive. Edinburgh does have a place that is like this, though.
That geek pub sounds great.
Dice, indie/OSR stuff, old used stuff. That's it.
No music, no snacks, no pub.
In and out.
Yeah Drexoll is great, but boy did they piss me off this Xmas. They got in a bunch of boardgame stock and left it piled in front of the rpg section making it inaccessible for 2weeks. They lost hundreds from me actually because most of my friends get RPGs for Xmas. Thier loss was Imperial's gain though.
The concept of a dream game store doesn't exist for me anymore. I rarely visit game stores now, have never used them as a place to meet other gamers, and purchase everything through online sources.
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;718914How's the gaming scene there?
Compared to the SF Bay Area, the LA gaming scene sucks donkey balls. The great weather, the innumerable entertainment options and the transient nature of SoCal all contribute to much flakier, less coherent gaming groups. It's a big complaint among GMs I know, but I know a couple whose crews are all natives who have been together for decades. But they are much more rare than in NorCal.
Quote from: jeff37923;718932The owners are both gamers and they decided that the clientele they wanted to cater to were nerds, geeks, and restaurant people - the running joke is that the first major fight in Green's Tavern will be over Star Wars vs. Star Trek.
That place sounds great!
This sounds like a prime destination for Xenocide Soldier to visit and meet with the owners.
Has anyone heard of (or been to) another Geek Pub that's comparable?
Quote from: Benoist;718603One of the greatest stores I've had the chance to visit is Drexoll Games in Vancouver. Nice selection of products, very nice people behind the counter, a few tables to play games, a good ambiance . . . it's a great place. My idea of a game store I would go to regularly to play games and buy stuff if I could.
Drexoll is an awesome store; so is the 'comic shop' (not sure if that was the real name; something along those lines) that was within a couple of blocks of it, at least as of the last time I was in Vancouver, several years back.
Quote from: Spinachcat;719813Compared to the SF Bay Area, the LA gaming scene sucks donkey balls. The great weather, the innumerable entertainment options and the transient nature of SoCal all contribute to much flakier, less coherent gaming groups. It's a big complaint among GMs I know, but I know a couple whose crews are all natives who have been together for decades. But they are much more rare than in NorCal.
That's a shame - then again LA does have a lot of stuff to do. I still need to see Thrilling Adventure Hour live at Largo.
My wife has a lot of nerd-type friends down there - I'll probably just run a game for them.
Mine would be a re-imagining of my favorite comic book store from my kidhood.
It's kind of dark and musty... funky colored walls with black-lite posters and old rock music blaring (though one room has jazz). A colorful clientele who support a WIDE variety of merchandise. For those willing to dig through the voluminous shelving (it takes up several store fronts) just about anything from the past several decades can be found... comics, movies, music, games, miniatures... maybe a smattering of porn and drug paraphernalia.
There's no immediately discernible system to how things are organized... it will take several visits before you begin to discover half of what the place has to offer.
It's not all on the same level... parts are up on wooden platforms reached by rickety stairs. Different parts of the store have a distinct vibe to them.
There are lots of couches and chairs scattered around the place.
The front area near the cash register is carpet in thick green shag carpeting.
The place is run by a wizened old hippie guy who is only in the store on Wednesdays, the rest of the time it's manned by a German dwarf and his girlfriend who is a tall blond woman who is always wearing a black tank-top and a tattoo on her arm that says 'Jimmy' (not the name of the dwarf).
It opens at noon and closes at 10pm.
Discerning people fly in from all over the world to shop there.
There's a place across the parking lot that makes amazing Indian street food and another that has the best eggplant Parmesan sandwich I ever ate.
Quote from: Haffrung;718986My local seems to be doing pretty well. 13,000 square feet standalone building. Stocks multiple copies of every RPG book, euro game, wargame, CCG, and miniature published in North America. Fantasy and SF novels. Has tens of thousands of out of print items. Enough table space for 70 or 80 gamers. Place is packed every weekend.
Testimonial video (http://www.sentrybox.com/)
Sentry Box tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gO7f_e5OrIk)
If you're looking for the gold standard of FLGs, that's it. Hint: own the building.
That's a thing of beauty. And probably the only way to get me to no longer order everything online.