That is, if there was a list of recommended reading for D&D, and it needed to be stuff that was reasonably in the popular culture (true classics that have stood the test of time are acceptable, 40 year old books almost no one at all has heard of are not), what would be the "must read" list for D&D as of 2012?
RPGpundit
Let's start with the easy ones.
Lord of the Rings :D
TSR published so many novels based on their various universes, I think that a lot of those would be good recommended reading.
Icewind Dale and Dark Elf trilogies
Dragonlance, Chronicles and Legends
Outside of that sort of thing...
David Eddings is always fun for me to read (even though he's like Heinlein in his characters)
Reasonably known in pop culture is a high mark (I'd think it would eliminate stuff like TSR's novels and even popular fantasy authors like Eddings or Glen Cook).
Work-in-progress list:
- Conan stories
- The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings
- John Carter/Barsoom novels
- Greek Myths
- A Game of Thrones, et cetera
- While it doesn't feel very "D&Dish" to me, the Harry Potter series is probably one of the most well-known examples of some D&Dish concepts (wizards, wizards guilds/schools, wands, magical items/formula/incantations, et cetera).
I would argue that Salvatore's books WERE reasonably well known in popular culture, and that they had a lot of impact for recruiting players in the '90's and early '00's. They've been NYT bestsellers, and received national recognition. Hell, I've had conversations with people about the books who didn't even know I gamed before or after the conversation, and who wouldn't even be interested in playing if they did know, but they liked the books.
I think that we're really looking for ADDITIONS to the list rather than creating a whole new list, so we should reasonably be looking for things that came out post-1980 that could be said to have had an impact on the gaming culture.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;562834I would argue that Salvatore's books WERE reasonably well known in popular culture...
Depends on how we're drawing that line, I suppose. If the bar is "reasonably well known to people who read fantasy novels" then all sorts of popular and bestselling fantasy authors could qualify, even if those authors were unknowns outside of the genre. If the bar is "reasonably well known to popular culture, in general," then I'd only include authors that achieved truly "breakout" recognition. People who've never opened a fantasy novel know who Conan is, or Harry Potter, or Achilles, or John Carter of Mars, or Frodo. And they want to slap Joffrey.
My mental acid test is something like "Stop 100 random people in the shopping mall and ask them if they've heard of such-and-such. Think the majority would have heard of it? It qualifies." That may be a higher bar than Pundit had in mind.
I think that having D&D books as recommended reading for a D&D game is madness. It's like... a bit too incestuous.
Quote from: RPGPundit;562826That is, if there was a list of recommended reading for D&D, and it needed to be stuff that was reasonably in the popular culture (true classics that have stood the test of time are acceptable, 40 year old books almost no one at all has heard of are not), what would be the "must read" list for D&D as of 2012?
RPGpundit
Is that what the original Appendix N was? How many of those authors were "reasonably in the popular culture"? I think the proportion of 40 year old books nobody at all had heard of was probably greater...
Anyway, to those already mentioned, I'd add:
-China Mieville's New Crobuzon books
-Tad Williams's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
-The Terry Goodkind series
What about Discworld, you guys? Do you think it's out of place for the D&D mentality?
He doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves for it, but Michael Moorcock had a massive influence on the whole genre with his Elric books. Most of the Games Workshop stuff was lifted whole cloth directly from it. Maybe a little too dark for a direct D&D comparison, but yes I'd say a real influence.
"40 year old books almost no one at all has heard of" describes a lot of Appendix N as it appeared in the 1st edition DMG fairly well (also, Lovecraft and Howard were not yet household names). Actually, some of the books on the list may be easier to find today than they were in the 1970s, since there has been a small sword&sorcery/pulp revival in the last few years and you can get anything from online bookstores.
But anyway, the purpose of a reading list is not to highlight the most popular fantasy fiction out there; it is to draw the reader's attention to reading material which adds to their understanding of the subject. It can, and it should highlight obscure books if they help someone understand where D&D is coming from. I read a lot of fantasy because it was on that list, or because other people read that list and decided they were worth publishing, and in many cases, I am grateful for the recommendation.
Finally, what a contemporary list needs is computer games, movies and TV shows, none of which existed in the fantasy genre when the list was first assembled. These changes in media consumption should be taken into account, although not slavishly.
Quote from: Melan;562852But anyway, the purpose of a reading list is not to highlight the most popular fantasy fiction out there; it is to draw the reader's attention to reading material which adds to their understanding of the subject. It can, and it should highlight obscure books if they help someone understand where D&D is coming from. I read a lot of fantasy because it was on that list, or because other people read that list and decided they were worth publishing, and in many cases, I am grateful for the recommendation.
I agree, and it's why I would think that the better written books set in the D&D worlds and using the dynamics of the system/settings would be good recommended reading for people to get a feel for how the games are run.
Quote from: Melan;562852"40 year old books almost no one at all has heard of" describes a lot of Appendix N as it appeared in the 1st edition DMG fairly well (also, Lovecraft and Howard were not yet household names). Actually, some of the books on the list may be easier to find today than they were in the 1970s, since there has been a small sword&sorcery/pulp revival in the last few years and you can get anything from online bookstores.
But anyway, the purpose of a reading list is not to highlight the most popular fantasy fiction out there; it is to draw the reader's attention to reading material which adds to their understanding of the subject. It can, and it should highlight obscure books if they help someone understand where D&D is coming from. I read a lot of fantasy because it was on that list, or because other people read that list and decided they were worth publishing, and in many cases, I am grateful for the recommendation.
Finally, what a contemporary list needs is computer games, movies and TV shows, none of which existed in the fantasy genre when the list was first assembled. These changes in media consumption should be taken into account, although not slavishly.
Bolded the important bit.
If we are sensible we can not only provide a set of good books, I refuse to recommend shit like the in house D&D junk, but we can also make D&D play more interesting
So we get
Best current Fantasy
Abercrombie - the Blade Itself trilogy, Best Served Cold & The Heroes
GRR Martin - Song of Fire and Ice
Scott Lynch - Locke Lamora (lets hope he cover comes through his depression and gets the rest of the books written)
Pratchet - Because his best work is exquisite and because the best way to under a trope is to subvert it
Rowling - I am not a fan but you can't ignore it
Stuff that has survived to become modern classics
Eddings - Belgariad and the Mallorean - nothing since
Fiest - Magician etc al (but you all must read Fairy Tale just cos its a great book)
Gemmell - Lengend and Knights of Dark Renown are great the rest is a rehash but as a source of RPG material very solid
The Classics
Tolkein - LorT - not the best written of books but the best realised of worlds
Leiber
Moorcock - again not well written but great for ideas
Honorable mentions
Gaiman - a fantastic writer although not realy directly in the D&D field.
Norman - Gor books 2 - 6 are great for teaching DMS how to retrofit an earthly culture to a fanstasy world and the polting and action are good
Vance
He has a new book due october 22 from gollancz called Republic of Thieves(book 3 of the series that began with lies of loch lamora) so i'd say Scott Lynch kicked depressions arse!
Well, if we're talking inspiration for the current d&d, then i'd have to say Xanth...
Tolkien (Hobbit, LotR)
Lovecraft (Cthulhu)
Howard (Conan)
Leiber (Fafhyrd and the Gray Mouser)
Martin (A Song of Ice and Fire)
Glenn Cook (The Black Company)
Steven Erikson (The Malazan Books of the Fallen)
David Gemmell (Legend)
Elizabeth Moon (The Deed of Paksennarrion)
Guy Kay (Tigana)
C. J. Cherryh (Downbelow Station)
Robert Heinlein (Starship Troopers)
Terry Pratchett (Discworld)
Quote from: Broken-Serenity;562874He has a new book due october 22 from gollancz called Republic of Thieves(book 3 of the series that began with lies of loch lamora) so i'd say Scott Lynch kicked depressions arse!
Well it ewas duer out last april but I'll check his blog. Updates
I think it would most likely be 'recommended viewing' instead of reading.
;)
Quote from: Nahualt;562883I think it would most likely be 'recommended viewing' instead of reading.
;)
Unfortunately, I think you're right. :(
Quote from: Nahualt;562883I think it would most likely be 'recommended viewing' instead of reading.
;)
Even though kids read more books now than they have ever done before and never in the history of the novel has a children's book like Harry Potter dominated the world of publishing to any similar extent?
If we add in the children's books we should include
Modern Classics
Harry Potter - as Noted
The Amber spyglass etc
The Lightning thief
Spyderwick Chronicles
All time Clsssics
The Hobbit
Narnia
Wizard of Oz - and the other myriad Oz books
Over sea under stone - that series has a title I can't recall it
The Weirdstone of Brisingamen and Elidor - Alan Garner's Classics
Oh and all the Roger Lancelyn Green Myths and Legends
But really for us adults i can truely think of no better recent fantasy novel than The Heroes. It is truely a work of Genius
Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain, for your young adult list.
Harry Potter is great, but has precious little to do with D&D. On the other hand, you have Chabon, Miéville (who has had a long D&D career, I think), Pratchett and maybe Martin, who are closer to what D&D is good at.
The absence of a high-profile Harry Potter-inspired RPG was a major missed opportunity, though.
Honestly? More viewing than reading. And I feel setting is pretty much viewed as a palette swap nowadays. No real attachment to setting (as noted by the oft encountered "LOL Lore...")
Final Fantasy
Magic the Gathering -- particularly Urza saga & Phyrexia
Naruto
Harry Potter
Pretty much Blizzard everything - Warcraft, WoW, Diablo, etc.
Dark Ages of Camelot, Everquest, etc.
Castlevania
Lord of the Rings
Star Wars (a strong example of story arc structure and relative character plot immunity)
Legend of the Five Rings -- or pretty much everything is better with ninjas
Dragonball Z -- it's about moar powrz and long drawn out fight scenes
Goosebumps (for horror)
I forget the YA shapeshifter novels that helped light the firestorm, but that and Vampire Diaries/Twilight, Underworld, etc. kindling the YA Supernatural Romance phenom
Wow, I sound rather negative with that list... I think I better stop and have a lie down.
Most of my favorites have already been mentioned like Tad Williams or Michael Moorcock. So how about Wheel of Time it's great inspiration for political machinations and showing females in "power" positions. Something usually lacking in fantasy without it being hackneyed Amazon stupidity.
Quote from: One Horse Town;562877Well, if we're talking inspiration for the current d&d, then i'd have to say Xanth...
(http://img8.xooimage.com/files/4/b/4/house-oh_snap-48437b.gif)
You're right though. :D
Opaopajr also hit it on the head. Dragonball-Z turned into an MMO and then converted to paper basically
is 4th edition.
It's interesting to note that a lot of the original Appendix N isn't really stuff you might read as a "child" today. I did, because Children's Literature sucked ass in the 70s when I was a kid. Now parents don't buy their kids books from the same shelves they buy from, they buy literature written and marketed specifically to children. Make of that what you will. ;)
As far as the teen supernatural romance thing goes, all that playing googly eyes with vampires and werewolves goes back to Laurel K Hamilton doesn't it (where the main character basically fucks her way through the White Wolf product line).
Quote from: Opaopajr;562933Honestly? More viewing than reading. And I feel setting is pretty much viewed as a palette swap nowadays. No real attachment to setting (as noted by the oft encountered "LOL Lore...")
Final Fantasy
Magic the Gathering -- particularly Urza saga & Phyrexia
Naruto
Harry Potter
Pretty much Blizzard everything - Warcraft, WoW, Diablo, etc.
Dark Ages of Camelot, Everquest, etc.
Castlevania
Lord of the Rings
Star Wars (a strong example of story arc structure and relative character plot immunity)
Legend of the Five Rings -- or pretty much everything is better with ninjas
Dragonball Z -- it's about moar powrz and long drawn out fight scenes
Goosebumps (for horror)
I forget the YA shapeshifter novels that helped light the firestorm, but that and Vampire Diaries/Twilight, Underworld, etc. kindling the YA Supernatural Romance phenom
Wow, I sound rather negative with that list... I think I better stop and have a lie down.
You're probably trolling but there is some truth in there. Final Fantasy Tactics, for instance, is pretty much straight D&D setting wise (or 9 with some occasional weirdness). War of the Roses with monks and samurai*, where have I seen this? VII or VIII not so much.
*and calculators but we don't talk about those.
Quote from: Melan;562852Finally, what a contemporary list needs is computer games, movies and TV shows, none of which existed in the fantasy genre when the list was first assembled. These changes in media consumption should be taken into account, although not slavishly.
Quote from: Nahualt;562883I think it would most likely be 'recommended viewing' instead of reading.
;)
Personally, I found B-westerns, Hammer or Universal horror flicks, classic adventure films* and Harryhausen movies -especially those hokey Sinbad films- to be far more inspirational than any fantasy/sci-fi novel and certainly more than any fantasy movie -with the possible exception of
Dragonslayer.
* This includes just about every Errol Flynn or Tyrone Power movie from the late 30s to late 40s, as well as most of your Technicolor epics like
Ivanhoe or
The Vikings.
I've also found that it's better to look outside the fantasy/sci-fi genre when looking for ideas, since the fantasy cud has been chewed pretty thoroughly.
A the common influences of modern fantasy role-players are movies, television shows, and computer games. With respect to movies and television shows (a "must watch" list), I think it would include these:
Recommended:
Record of Lodoss War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2vxlZkfW-Y)
The Lord of the Rings trilogy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtKuUPK2BfQ) (and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0k3kHtyoqc) when it's released)
Conan the Barbarian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnqxZePU-PU) (1982)
Legend of the Seeker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kgPCa_NSjc)
Hercules: The Legendary Journeys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-tyFqjfSIA)
Xena: Warrior Princess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5-vZMqPAT4)
Willow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-P03NGSP6Y)
Jason and the Argonauts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA)
A Game of Thrones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ixEWrTLiZg)
Dark Kingdom: The Dragon King (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjiLVk76TOo)
Dragonheart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF9tgeo1HuA)
Hearts and Armour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yboqC4SXbug)
The Scorpion King (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c_6HUA9FAY)
The Scorpion King 2: Rise of a Warrior (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBlJkYdKouE&feature=fvwrel)
Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgEt-4L3fKQ)
Dungeons & Dragons: Wrath of the Dragon God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsXNjhKGty4) (not the first movie)
Korgoth of Barbaria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJ8G_ou6Dc) (whole episode - NSFW)
Provisionally (not perfect fits or of questionable quality):
John Carter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XavXWxqZvLY)
Excalibur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emF-m9qnF5o)
Camelot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J2-aVVPCzY)
The Last Unicorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-UpwWauZ50)
The Black Cauldron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOpRmYPqX84)
The Beastmaster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGEigptwPOU)
The Sword and the Sorcerer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaQVpeGvxYQ)
The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMFdVEQcH_0)
Fire and Ice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz-yLWGaIxM)
Conan the Destroyer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeXWsXrs_00)
Kull the Conqueror (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLWayoYSLHA)
Red Sonja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUHsZEo4I24)
Hawk the Slayer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ra6TsdEts)
(And, yes, I know plenty of those were influenced by or based on D&D and works in the original Appendix N to one degree or another.)
Quote from: Elfdart;562983I've also found that it's better to look outside the fantasy/sci-fi genre when looking for ideas, since the fantasy cud has been chewed pretty thoroughly.
Yes, you are right. That slipped my mind. Not a fan of the Sindbad series, but a lot of adventure/swashbuckler/monster movies are great for D&D.
Quote from: John Morrow;562990A the common influences of modern fantasy role-players are movies, television shows, and computer games. With respect to movies and television shows (a "must watch" list), I think it would include these:
Recommended:
Record of Lodoss War (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2vxlZkfW-Y)
The Lord of the Rings trilogy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtKuUPK2BfQ) (and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0k3kHtyoqc) when it's released)
Conan the Barbarian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnqxZePU-PU) (1982)
Legend of the Seeker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kgPCa_NSjc)
Hercules: The Legendary Journeys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-tyFqjfSIA)
Xena: Warrior Princess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5-vZMqPAT4)
Willow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-P03NGSP6Y)
Jason and the Argonauts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg1v5HkpdEA)
A Game of Thrones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ixEWrTLiZg)
Dark Kingdom: The Dragon King (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjiLVk76TOo)
Dragonheart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF9tgeo1HuA)
Hearts and Armour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yboqC4SXbug)
The Scorpion King (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c_6HUA9FAY)
The Scorpion King 2: Rise of a Warrior (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBlJkYdKouE&feature=fvwrel)
Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgEt-4L3fKQ)
Dungeons & Dragons: Wrath of the Dragon God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsXNjhKGty4) (not the first movie)
Korgoth of Barbaria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYJ8G_ou6Dc) (whole episode - NSFW)
Provisionally (not perfect fits or of questionable quality):
John Carter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XavXWxqZvLY)
Excalibur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emF-m9qnF5o)
Camelot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J2-aVVPCzY)
The Last Unicorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-UpwWauZ50)
The Black Cauldron (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOpRmYPqX84)
The Beastmaster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGEigptwPOU)
The Sword and the Sorcerer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaQVpeGvxYQ)
The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMFdVEQcH_0)
Fire and Ice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz-yLWGaIxM)
Conan the Destroyer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeXWsXrs_00)
Kull the Conqueror (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLWayoYSLHA)
Red Sonja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUHsZEo4I24)
Hawk the Slayer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Ra6TsdEts)
(And, yes, I know plenty of those were influenced by or based on D&D and works in the original Appendix N to one degree or another.)
Most excellent list, sir, I was not aware of many of those movies.
Red Sonja is a favorite of mine. She takes on Conan blade to blade at the end credits. :)
If you change Appendix N too much, it's no longer D&D. While there may be a few novels you could add to the list, there's not many. While I like GRR Martin, his stuff is not really evocative of D&D.
I'm going to throw in the Pirates of the Carribbean movies, for inspiration on nautical adventures.
Yeah, they are Disney, but they are also pretty well done if somewhat campy.
I'd also throw in:
Rune Soldier
The Weathering Continent
Slayers (all)
Legend of Crystania (both)
Ruin Explorers
Dragonslayer
LadyHawke
300
Just for good measure and to round things out.
Quote from: RPGPundit;562826That is, if there was a list of recommended reading for D&D, and it needed to be stuff that was reasonably in the popular culture (true classics that have stood the test of time are acceptable, 40 year old books almost no one at all has heard of are not), what would be the "must read" list for D&D as of 2012?
That's not really Appendix N, though. Appendix N was an idiosyncratic list of sources that Gygax personally liked and felt would convey the appropriate tone and content he thought of as "D&D".
Using your criteria, for example, I wouldn't include Clark Ashton Smith. But if I were putting together an Appendix N, Clark Ashton Smith's name would rank fairly high on the list (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/tag/clark-ashton-smith).
Quote from: Panzerkraken;562834I think that we're really looking for ADDITIONS to the list rather than creating a whole new list, so we should reasonably be looking for things that came out post-1980 that could be said to have had an impact on the gaming culture.
Following that guidance, I would say:
- Song of Ice and Fire (George R.R. Martin)
- Malazan Empire (Steven Erikson)
- Discworld (Terry Pratchett)
- Harry Potter (J.K. Rowling)
- Dragonlance Chronicles and Legends (Weis/Hickman)
- Icewind Dale and Dark Elf Trilogies (Salvatore)
- Dragonriders of Pern Trilogy (Anne McCaffrey)
- Kane Stories (Karl Edward Wagner)
- Stardust (Neil Gaiman)
- Gateway (Frederick Pohl)
- Belgariard and Mallorean (David Eddings)
- Vlad Taltos Series (Steven Brust)
- Myth Series (Robert Asprin)
- Thieves World (ed. Robert Asprin)
- Wheel of Time (Robert Jordan)
And a couple that predate D&D but didn't make the original Appendix N:
- Clark Ashton Smith
- Dune (Frank Herbert)
I also suspect that China Mieville, David Gemmell's Legend, Glen Cook's Black Company, and Moon's Deeds of Paksennarion probably deserve a place, but I haven't actually read them. Similarly, I feel like Guy Gavriel Kay, Mercedes Lackey, Robin Hobb, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and possibly Jacqueline Carey may be getting overlooked due to my lack of familiarity.
I considered both Narnia, Oz, and His Dark Materials. Probably wouldn't hurt to toss 'em on the list, but they've never struck me as landing in the same zone as D&D fantasy. In this, I also took my cue from their absence (in the case of Narnia and Oz) from the original Appendix N.
Quote from: Melan;562852Finally, what a contemporary list needs is computer games, movies and TV shows, none of which existed in the fantasy genre when the list was first assembled. These changes in media consumption should be taken into account, although not slavishly.
I also agree with this.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;563061Moon's Deeds of Paksennarion probably deserve a place, but I haven't actually read them. Similarly, I feel like Guy Gavriel Kay
Paksennarion and The Fionnavar Tapestry are D&D books already (albeit with the serial numbers filed off) and do a pretty good job of evoking the mechanics of D&D within the story. I personally think this makes them awful books, but they do strongly evoke D&D.
Quote from: CRKruegerAs far as the teen supernatural romance thing goes, all that playing googly eyes with vampires and werewolves goes back to Laurel K Hamilton doesn't it
LKH pretty much created the paranormal romance genre in its current form, yes. The imitators are starting to feed on each other now in a Ourobourean, Pop Will Eat Itself kind of way, but she started the whole thing rolling.
Quote from: JRR;563013If you change Appendix N too much, it's no longer D&D. While there may be a few novels you could add to the list, there's not many. While I like GRR Martin, his stuff is not really evocative of D&D.
Get da fuck outta here!
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;562832
Don't stop there. Norse myths, Anglo-Saxon myths, Germanic myths, Celtic myths, Slavic myths, etc, etc. Those have always been big influences on my D&D.
Quote from: Fifth Element;563148Don't stop there. Norse myths, Anglo-Saxon myths, Germanic myths, Celtic myths, Slavic myths, etc, etc. Those have always been big influences on my D&D.
Yep, yep. It's why I love CK Cherah and Ursala Andress, Tad Williams and Robert Jordan so much. I got the names wrong didn't I?
Quote from: Fifth Element;563148Don't stop there. Norse myths, Anglo-Saxon myths, Germanic myths, Celtic myths, Slavic myths, etc, etc. Those have always been big influences on my D&D.
Burt Njall's Saga often reads like a D&D campaign played by teens, right down to the player vs. player vendettas and the players who always have to sabotage every attempt at putting things back on track.
What about the other way around?
D&D has been such a big gorilla in the room with fantasy literature since about 1980. So it's conceivable to create an "Appendix Z" - works that have been influenced indirectly by D&D, rather than influencing it indirectly. ("Indirectly" rules out the franchise novels, naturally, but also such things as Andre Norton's Quag Keep.)
For example, I would say that the Discworld series sometimes stops to take a jab at the post-RPG idea of adventuring.
I will repeat any one who likes fantasy and hasn't read Joe Abercrombie is obviously insane.
BUY THIS BOOK TODAY -
Extract of The Heroes - http://www.joeabercrombie.com/books/the-heroes/extract/
Quote from: jibbajibba;563264I will repeat any one who likes fantasy and hasn't read Joe Abercrombie is obviously insane.
BUY THIS BOOK TODAY -
Extract of The Heroes - http://www.joeabercrombie.com/books/the-heroes/extract/
I concur completely. In fact, just buy everything he's written, it's all great stuff.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;562831TSR published so many novels based on their various universes, I think that a lot of those would be good recommended reading.
Icewind Dale and Dark Elf trilogies
Dragonlance, Chronicles and Legends
Outside of that sort of thing...
David Eddings is always fun for me to read (even though he's like Heinlein in his characters)
Since Appendix N should be the very "best of" inspirational material, I think that would automatically discount every D&D novel ever written. Serial mass-market garbage.
I don't know about Eddings, maybe.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Panzerkraken;562834I think that we're really looking for ADDITIONS to the list rather than creating a whole new list, so we should reasonably be looking for things that came out post-1980 that could be said to have had an impact on the gaming culture.
No, I think that there are things on the original list that are not relevant today, they are far too obscure to be useful for the list or have not stood the test of time.
Of course, other things on the list (Conan, Moorcock, Zelazny, Tolkien) should still be there.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Panzerkraken;563271I concur completely. In fact, just buy everything he's written, it's all great stuff.
+1
He's at the top of my current favorite authors list. This blog post of his sold me-
http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2011/02/15/bankrupt-nihilism/
"Think of a Lord of the Rings where, after stringing you along for thousands of pages, all of the hobbits end up dying of cancer contracted by their proximity to the Ring, Aragorn is revealed to be a buffoonish puppet-king of no honor and false might, and Gandalf no sooner celebrates the defeat of Sauron than he executes a long-held plot to become the new Dark Lord of Middle-earth, and you have some idea of what to expect should you descend into Abercrombie's jaded literary sewer."
:rotfl:
So is there anything to Abercrombie besides deconstruction, or is that the whole schtick?
He makes excellent characters, and details whole cultures in throwaway lines.
Quote from: Marleycat;563246I got the names wrong didn't I?
Hell yeah.
This is Ursula Andress, the original Bond girl:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Ursula_Andress_as_Honey_Ryder_crop.jpg/250px-Ursula_Andress_as_Honey_Ryder_crop.jpg)
And this is Ursula LeGuin, of "A Wizard of Earthsea" fame:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/UrsulaLeGuin.01.jpg/220px-UrsulaLeGuin.01.jpg)
The other woman, C. J. Cheryh, you just misspelled, and the others you got right. :D
Quote from: JRR;563013If you change Appendix N too much, it's no longer D&D. While there may be a few novels you could add to the list, there's not many. While I like GRR Martin, his stuff is not really evocative of D&D.
Its evocative of my Dark Albion campaign.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;563556Since Appendix N should be the very "best of" inspirational material, I think that would automatically discount every D&D novel ever written. Serial mass-market garbage.
There are some stray gems in there ("Elfshadow" by Elaine Cunningham and almost anything written by Jeff Grubb), but I agree that D&D novel make you
unlearn how to play D&D.
Record of the Lodoss Wars began as the author's homebrew campaign IIRC. Contents-wise it borders on plagiarism (Tiamat, fighter/cleric/thief/magic user/dwarf/elf party, etc.) but it is
the D&D anime. The pilot has a party, a dungeon and a dragon.
It is worth mentioning "Thieves World" (if no one did it before) and the "Kane" cycle by Karl Edward Wagner.
Some comic books could be of inspiration too, even if I don't really have a knowledge of the genre in the medium (and I make a living by writing comics :o ). The French are big on fantasy comics. I'm sure that Outremer (http://www.nonsolomanga.it/fumetti4/oltremare1.htm) published by Albin-Michel is as D&D as it gets (the page is in Italian, but the art is quite illustrative).
Sojourn (http://heavyink.com/graphic_novel/1907-Sojourn-Vol-5-A-Sorcerers-Tale) was quite D&Desque and, like "Outremer" featured a lead character inspired by Valeria Mazza.
Again, it is with a little shame that I must confess my ignorance of fantasy comic books. A friend of mine, however, is doing Morgana (http://www.marioalberti.com/index.php?aid=97) for Les Humanoïdes Associés and he once told me how one of his main "muses"was Planescape: Torment. I'm waiting for the series to be finished to check it out, though.
Quote from: RPGPundit;563556Since Appendix N should be the very "best of" inspirational material, I think that would automatically discount every D&D novel ever written. Serial mass-market garbage.
I don't know about Eddings, maybe.
RPGPundit
I read almost all of David Eddings' books when I was about 13 or 14 and I think they're best enjoyed at that sort of age.
They guy actually
admits to not really liking other fantasy books and just writing in the genre because he thought it was easy and would sell well. It shows in how cliche and unimaginative they are.
Quote from: noisms;563685I read almost all of David Eddings' books when I was about 13 or 14 and I think they're best enjoyed at that sort of age.
They guy actually admits to not really liking other fantasy books and just writing in the genre because he thought it was easy and would sell well. It shows in how cliche and unimaginative they are.
See I don't agree with The Eddings stuff there I think he can do a thing that is key in a good fantasy novel he can create great chanracters and he does it in a few short lines. He also gives his characters voice. The goal of any writer doing dialogue is that you know who is speaking because their voice jumps of the page and its distinct. Eddings is great at that.
Also from a D&D perspective, and here quality is not necessarily the most important thing, he has parties that go on quests. Books with parties, ensemble casts if you will, are a better match for D&D than solo heroes .
So a party of 2 wizards, a very practical smith, a spy, a barbarian, and a young wizard wannabe are probably a better modle for D&D than you find in a lot of fantasy books.
I have yet to find any books where a party of novices hire 2 dozen bearers to carry their stuff into an old dungeon mind .....
Quote from: jibbajibba;563749I have yet to find any books where a party of novices hire 2 dozen bearers to carry their stuff into an old dungeon mind .....
You'll find bearers and so forth in the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs, who I'm pretty sure is cited in Appendix N. Those kind of expeditions are also found in the works of H. Rider Haggard (and the movies based on them). The whole exploring lost worlds sub-genre was still alive in the early 70s, but pretty much forgotten today.
Quote from: Melan;562852But anyway, the purpose of a reading list is not to highlight the most popular fantasy fiction out there; it is to draw the reader's attention to reading material which adds to their understanding of the subject. It can, and it should highlight obscure books if they help someone understand where D&D is coming from. I read a lot of fantasy because it was on that list, or because other people read that list and decided they were worth publishing, and in many cases, I am grateful for the recommendation.
Finally, what a contemporary list needs is computer games, movies and TV shows, none of which existed in the fantasy genre when the list was first assembled. These changes in media consumption should be taken into account, although not slavishly.
Exactly so. Appendix N wasn't 'the best of fantasy to this point.' There was hardly even a recognized fantasy genre at the time. It was an ideosyncratic list of Gygax's personal inspirations for the game.
As you note, any such list today would be mainly computer games, movies, and TV shows. Those have clearly influenced WotC D&D, from the focus on tactical combat, to the look and style of the game, far more than epic fantasy sagas. I like A Game of Thrones, but D&D today has fuck all to do with dynastic struggles. It has far more to do with Dragonball, World of Warcraft, and the Lord of the Rings movies.
Quote from: Haffrung;563791It has far more to do with Dragonball, World of Warcraft, and the Lord of the Rings movies.
I'm not sure where Dragonball comes into the mix, but yeah, lotr and wow are definitely on the list. Lessee..
Today, appendix n would probably include.
Dying Earth (traces at least)
Lord of the Rings
European history--including the ugly bits--permeates Golarion. But
Computer RPGs in general (not just WOW, but MUDs, Roguelike's, and the Infinity Engine stuff)
Dungeons and Dragons itself--let's face it, D&D doesn't really emulate fiction anymore as much as it does it's own history and conventions
Superhero Comics
Cyberpunk, Asimov, William Gibson (well, that's mostly just Ebberon)
Conan the Barbarian (the films and comics moreso than Howard's novels)
Oddly, not a lot of modern pop fantasy really fits. Dresden Files' emphasis on the Fey made it into 4E a bit. Harry Potter, though? Twilight? Percy Jackson? Not a whole lot. George RR Martin? Basically nothing.
Quote from: John Morrow;562990Legend of the Seeker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kgPCa_NSjc)
This appears to rock even harder than
Merlin. Thank you sir for the recommendation.
Quote from: jibbajibba;563749I have yet to find any books where a party of novices hire 2 dozen bearers to carry their stuff into an old dungeon mind .....
Clark Ashton Smith (ironically, not in the AD&D 1e DMG Appendix N) has you covered.
Quote from: The Seven Geases, by Clark Ashton Smith (Weird Tales, October 1934)The Lord Ralibar Vooz, high magistrate of Commoriom and third cousin to King Homquat, had gone forth with six-and-twenty of his most valorous retainers in quest of such game as was afforded by the black Eiglophian Mountains. Leaving to lesser sportsmen the great sloths and vampire-bats of the intermediate jungle, as well as the small but noxious dinosauria, Ralibar Vooz and his followers had pushed rapidly ahead and had covered the distance between the Hyperborean capital and their objective in a day's march. The glassy scaurs and grim ramparts of Mount Voormithadreth, highest and most formidable of the Eiglophians, had beetled above them, wedging the sun with dark scoriac peaks at mid-afternoon, and walling the blazonries of sunset wholly from view. They had spent the night beneath its lowermost crags, keeping a ceaseless watch, piling dead branches on their fires, and hearing on the grisly heights above them the wild and dog-like ululations of those subhuman savages, the Voormis for which the mountain was named. Also, they heard the bellowing of an alpine catoblepas pursued by the Voormis, and the mad snarling of a saber-tooth tiger assailed and dragged down; and Ralibar Vooz had deemed that these noises boded well for the morrow's hunting.
He and his men rose betimes; and having breakfasted on their provisions of dried bear-meat and a dark sour wine that was noted far its invigorative qualities, they began immediately the ascent of the mountain, whose upper precipices were hollow with caves occupied by the Voormis. Ralibar Vooz had hunted these creatures before; and a certain room of his house in Commoriom was arrased with their thick and shaggy pelts. They were usually deemed the most dangerous of the Hyperborean fauna; and the mere climbing of Voormithadreth, even without the facing of its inhabitants, would have been a feat attended by more than sufficient peril: but Ralibar Vooz, having tasted of such sport, could now satisfy himself with nothing tamer.
He and his followers were well armed and accoutered. Some of the men bore coils of rope and grapplinghooks to be employed in the escalade of the steeper crags. Some carried heavy crossbows; and many were equipped with long-handled and saber-bladed bills which, from experience, had proved the most effective weapons in close-range fighting with the Voormis. The whole party was variously studded with auxiliary knives, throwing-darts, two-handed simitars, maces, bodkins and saw-toothed axes. The men were all clad in jerkins and hose of dinosaur-leather, and were shod with brazen-spiked buskins. Ralibar Vooz himself wore a light suiting of copper chain-mail, which, flexible as cloth, in no wise impeded his movements. In addition he carried a buckler of mammoth-hide with a long bronze spike in its center that could be used as a thrusting-sword; and, being a man of huge stature and strength, his shoulders and baldric were hung with a whole arsenal of weaponries.
Ralibar Vooz, High Magistrate of Commoriom. Male human F9; AC 1; HP 66; #at 1; dmg by weapon +2; ML 9; AL N; Str 17, Int 12, Wis 7, Dex 11, Con 14, Cha 13;
+2 Commoriom copper chain mail (treat as
elven chain mail),
+1 spiked shield and 1d6 other magic weapons (roll as appropriate).
Valorous retainer (26). Male human F3; AC 7 (dinosaur leather jerkin); HP 15; #at 1; dmg by weapon (1d10 two-handed scimitar or sabre-balded bill, 1d8 saw-toothed axe, 1d6 mace, 1d4 knife, 1d8 heavy crossbow); ML 10 (they aren't called "valorous" for nothing); AL N; dinosaur leather jerkin, knife, throwing dart and one melee weapon (roll 1d6): polearm (1-3), two-handed sword (4), mace and shield (5), battle axe (6). 1 in 6 carries a heavy crossbow and a belt quiver with 20 bolts.
Quote from: Haffrung;563787You'll find bearers and so forth in the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs, who I'm pretty sure is cited in Appendix N. Those kind of expeditions are also found in the works of H. Rider Haggard (and the movies based on them). The whole exploring lost worlds sub-genre was still alive in the early 70s, but pretty much forgotten today.
Tarzan with a band of bearers or John Carter... usually its the bad guys that have bearers, and its used a metaphor for their weakness and inability to survive unaided.
And in all those books the bearers always flee screaming leaving the heroic white man and the occassional noble savage to do the actual adventure....
King Solomon's Mines?
Quote from: The Butcher;564404Clark Ashton Smith (ironically, noy in the AD&D 1e DMG Appendix N) has you covered.
You can see why that style of fiction stayed so popular.....
Quote from: jibbajibba;564407You can see why that style of fiction stayed so popular.....
Nice goalpost shifting there, Tim.
Quote from: Benoist;564409Nice goalpost shifting there, Tim.
Okay, mate.
How about that book seems to be unreadable trash :)
How about that still doesn't mirror any party recruiting bearers or any version of D&D I have ever played it looks more like the roster list for a game of Warhammer fantasy battle...... :)
I was being polite before but meh....
Quote from: jibbajibba;564411Okay, mate.
How about that book seems to be unreadable trash :)
How about that still doesn't mirror any party recruiting bearers or any version of D&D I have ever played it looks more like the roster list for a game of Warhammer fantasy battle...... :)
I was being polite before but meh....
English isn't even my native language, and I'm a huge fan. Clark Ashton Smith is one of the few truly great writers in a genre rife with hacks. His tales might not be life-changing stuff, but his artistry with words finds few matches; to the best of my knowledge, only Jack Vance and Gene Wolfe compare.
And the size of the party is not too far-fetched if you look back far enough. It is my understanding that both Gary and Dave's games back in the day had huge, huge partis by today's standards, e.g. 10-12 players plus retainers.
Quote from: jibbajibba;564411Okay, mate.
How about that book seems to be unreadable trash :)
You are kidding, right?
Quote from: The Butcher;564414English isn't even my native language, and I'm a huge fan. Clark Ashton Smith is one of the few truly great writers in a genre rife with hacks. His tales might not be life-changing stuff, but his artistry with words finds few matches.
Fuck yes.
Quote from: jibbajibba;564407You can see why that style of fiction stayed so popular.....
Yeah, because stuff like the Dresdon Files is so much more evocative and inspiring.
That quote is full of fantasy win. There's more genuine imagination and originality in a couple paragraphs than you find in whole 600 page tomes by guys like Patrick Rothfuss and Brandon Sanderson.
If that kind of writing isn't popular today, it's only because many readers today never progress beyond the juvenilia of intense character identification and wish fullfillment.
Quote from: Haffrung;564428Yeah, because stuff like the Dresdon Files is so much more evocative and inspiring.
That quote is full of fantasy win. There's more genuine imagination and originality in a couple paragraphs than you find in whole 600 page tomes by guys like Patrick Rothfuss and Brandon Sanderson.
If that kind of writing isn't popular today, it's only because many readers today never progress beyond the juvenilia of intense character identification and wish fullfillment.
Character identification: juvenile
Three paragraphs describing the equipment a band of travelers are using: evocative and inspiring.
Your standards are weird, sir.
Quote from: Haffrung;563791Exactly so. Appendix N wasn't 'the best of fantasy to this point.' There was hardly even a recognized fantasy genre at the time. It was an ideosyncratic list of Gygax's personal inspirations for the game.
I think you're seriously exaggerating this situation; in fact there was a thriving industry of fantasy books by the late 70s. Tolkien, Moorkock, Lieber, Zelazny, and others were wildly popular, and in some cases very tied to the counter-culture. Long before Appendix N was written, the works of Tolkien and Moorcock had both ended up having a big influence on rock music, for example.
RPGPundit
Some Comics should also be considered.
Corben's Den and/or New tales of the Arabian Nights comics and maybe his adaptation of The House on the Borderland
Azrach
Conan (especially W/Buscema or Nord)
Battlechasers ( partially inspired by rpgs, it really reminds me of 4e).
Thor: (Kirby's issues from about 121 on; Simonson's entire run; I don't know shit about the more recent stuff).
Anyway, comics.
Quote from: RPGPundit;564538I think you're seriously exaggerating this situation; in fact there was a thriving industry of fantasy books by the late 70s. Tolkien, Moorkock, Lieber, Zelazny, and others were wildly popular, and in some cases very tied to the counter-culture. Long before Appendix N was written, the works of Tolkien and Moorcock had both ended up having a big influence on rock music, for example.
RPGPundit
Fantasy was a sub-genre of science fiction, itself under the umbrella of 'weird stuff' (as George R. R. Martin calls it). Publishers didn't have a Fantasy imprint. You wouldn't have found a Fantasy section in a book store until Brooks, Eddings, etc. popularized the Tolkien rip-off in the mid 80s. You also didn't have a distinct (and insular) fantasy audience, the way you have today; there simply wasn't enough fantasy material for someone to read it exclusively. If you read fantasy in 1976, you probably also read a lot of science fiction, horror, pulp adventure, and historical fiction.
Quote from: Roger the GS;563257D&D has been such a big gorilla in the room with fantasy literature since about 1980. So it's conceivable to create an "Appendix Z" - works that have been influenced indirectly by D&D, rather than influencing it indirectly. ("Indirectly" rules out the franchise novels, naturally, but also such things as Andre Norton's Quag Keep.)
I'd argue that this applies to most fantasy fiction published after 1980 and essentially every piece of fantasy fiction published after 1990.
If you want to limit it only to stuff that was directly-influenced-but-not-licensed you might be able to constrain the list a bit more: Glen Cook, Steven Brust, Steven Erikson*, and so forth.
* Technically GURPS, but nonetheless.
Quote from: RPGPundit;563558No, I think that there are things on the original list that are not relevant today, they are far too obscure to be useful for the list or have not stood the test of time.
A good chunk of that list had already failed to stand the test of time in '79. Some of it had never been particularly popular in the first place. The idiosyncratic and personalized nature of the list really can't be discounted if you want to understand its character.
Quote from: Haffrung;563791Exactly so. Appendix N wasn't 'the best of fantasy to this point.' There was hardly even a recognized fantasy genre at the time.
'79 is post-
Sword of Shannara. The fantasy genre had not only arrived; it had become an institution.
Quote from: Haffrung;564428Yeah, because stuff like the Dresdon Files is so much more evocative and inspiring.
That quote is full of fantasy win. There's more genuine imagination and originality in a couple paragraphs than you find in whole 600 page tomes by guys like Patrick Rothfuss and Brandon Sanderson.
If that kind of writing isn't popular today, it's only because many readers today never progress beyond the juvenilia of intense character identification and wish fullfillment.
Sorry mate never read any of those guys can't tell you.
I would place my most influential fantasy books as, in no particular order
Ill-met in Lankmar
Gor books (Outlaw, Raiders, Assasin, Nomads the rest meh)
Nine Princes in Amber
Jack of Shadows
Ivanhoe
The Once and Future King
Over Sea, Under Stone
The Wizard of Earthsea
Song of Fire and Ice
The Lies of Locke Lamora
The Blade Itself (trillogy + The Heroes)
The Belgariad
Various collected Myths (Roger Lanselyn Green - Norsemen, Greek Heroes, The Iliad, King Arthur and His Knights, )
Mythago Wood
Faerie Tale
The Books of Magic
Sandman
Lucifer
Dying Earth
The Aeneid
Beowulf
Mr Norrell and Jonathan Strange
Legend
StarDust
But my games are probably just as informed/infuenced by
Captain Correlli's Mandolin & The Coco Lord Trillogy
If this is a Man/The Truce/the Periodic Table
100 years of Solitude
Iain/Ian Bankes
Foucault's Pendulum/The Name of the Rose
The Yiddish Policeman's Union
American Gods
etc ...
I stopped reading fantasy for years and only came back to it thanks to Lynch/Ambercrombie/Martin about 3 years ago because 95% of it is absolute crap. As far as I can tell Ashton Smith is the fantasy Equivalent of Zane Grey ...harsh perhaps .....