So is there anything to Abercrombie besides deconstruction, or is that the whole schtick?

He makes excellent characters, and details whole cultures in throwaway lines.

Quote from: Marleycat;563246I got the names wrong didn't I?

Hell yeah.

This is Ursula Andress, the original Bond girl:


And this is Ursula LeGuin, of "A Wizard of Earthsea" fame:


The other woman, C. J. Cheryh, you just misspelled, and the others you got right.

Quote from: JRR;563013If you change Appendix N too much, it's no longer D&D.  While there may be a few novels you could add to the list, there's not many.  While I like GRR Martin, his stuff is not really evocative of D&D.

Its evocative of my Dark Albion campaign.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;563556Since Appendix N should be the very "best of" inspirational material, I think that would automatically discount every D&D novel ever written.  Serial mass-market garbage.

There are some stray gems in there ("Elfshadow" by Elaine Cunningham and almost anything written by Jeff Grubb), but I agree that D&D novel make you unlearn how to play D&D.

Record of the Lodoss Wars began as the author's homebrew campaign IIRC. Contents-wise it borders on plagiarism (Tiamat, fighter/cleric/thief/magic user/dwarf/elf party, etc.) but it is the D&D anime. The pilot has a party, a dungeon and a dragon.

It is worth mentioning "Thieves World" (if no one did it before) and the "Kane" cycle by Karl Edward Wagner.

Some comic books could be of inspiration too, even if I don't really have a knowledge of the genre in the medium (and I make a living by writing comics ). The French are big on fantasy comics. I'm sure that Outremer published by Albin-Michel is as D&D as it gets (the page is in Italian, but the art is quite illustrative).

Sojourn was quite D&Desque and, like "Outremer" featured a lead character inspired by Valeria Mazza.

Again, it is with a little shame that I must confess my ignorance of fantasy comic books. A friend of mine, however, is doing Morgana for Les Humanoïdes Associés and he once told me how one of his main "muses"was Planescape: Torment. I'm waiting for the series to be finished to check it out, though.

Quote from: RPGPundit;563556Since Appendix N should be the very "best of" inspirational material, I think that would automatically discount every D&D novel ever written.  Serial mass-market garbage.

I don't know about Eddings, maybe.

RPGPundit

I read almost all of David Eddings' books when I was about 13 or 14 and I think they're best enjoyed at that sort of age.

They guy actually admits to not really liking other fantasy books and just writing in the genre because he thought it was easy and would sell well. It shows in how cliche and unimaginative they are.

Quote from: noisms;563685I read almost all of David Eddings' books when I was about 13 or 14 and I think they're best enjoyed at that sort of age.

They guy actually admits to not really liking other fantasy books and just writing in the genre because he thought it was easy and would sell well. It shows in how cliche and unimaginative they are.

See I don't agree with The Eddings stuff there I think he can do a thing that is key in a good fantasy novel he can create great chanracters and he does it in a few short lines. He also gives his characters voice. The goal of any writer doing dialogue is that you know who is speaking because their voice jumps of the page and its distinct. Eddings is great at that.

Also from a D&D perspective, and here quality is not necessarily the most important thing, he has parties that go on quests. Books with parties, ensemble casts if you will, are a better match for D&D than solo heroes .

So a party of 2 wizards, a very practical smith, a spy, a barbarian, and a young wizard wannabe are probably a better modle for D&D than you find in a lot of fantasy books.

I have yet to find any books where a party of novices hire 2 dozen bearers to carry their stuff into an old dungeon mind .....

Quote from: jibbajibba;563749I have yet to find any books where a party of novices hire 2 dozen bearers to carry their stuff into an old dungeon mind .....

You'll find bearers and so forth in the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs, who I'm pretty sure is cited in Appendix N. Those kind of expeditions are also found in the works of H. Rider Haggard (and the movies based on them). The whole exploring lost worlds sub-genre was still alive in the early 70s, but pretty much forgotten today.

Quote from: Melan;562852But anyway, the purpose of a reading list is not to highlight the most popular fantasy fiction out there; it is to draw the reader's attention to reading material which adds to their understanding of the subject. It can, and it should highlight obscure books if they help someone understand where D&D is coming from. I read a lot of fantasy because it was on that list, or because other people read that list and decided they were worth publishing, and in many cases, I am grateful for the recommendation.

Finally, what a contemporary list needs is computer games, movies and TV shows, none of which existed in the fantasy genre when the list was first assembled. These changes in media consumption should be taken into account, although not slavishly.

Exactly so. Appendix N wasn't 'the best of fantasy to this point.' There was hardly even a recognized fantasy genre at the time. It was an ideosyncratic list of Gygax's personal inspirations for the game.

As you note, any such list today would be mainly computer games, movies, and TV shows. Those have clearly influenced WotC D&D, from the focus on tactical combat, to the look and style of the game, far more than epic fantasy sagas. I like A Game of Thrones, but D&D today has fuck all to do with dynastic struggles. It has far more to do with Dragonball, World of Warcraft, and the Lord of the Rings movies.

Quote from: Haffrung;563791It has far more to do with Dragonball, World of Warcraft, and the Lord of the Rings movies.

I'm not sure where Dragonball comes into the mix, but yeah, lotr and wow are definitely on the list. Lessee..

Today, appendix n would probably include.

Dying Earth (traces at least)
Lord of the Rings
European history--including the ugly bits--permeates Golarion. But
Computer RPGs in general (not just WOW, but MUDs, Roguelike's, and the Infinity Engine stuff)
Dungeons and Dragons itself--let's face it, D&D doesn't really emulate fiction anymore as much as it does it's own history and conventions
Superhero Comics
Cyberpunk, Asimov, William Gibson (well, that's mostly just Ebberon)
Conan the Barbarian (the films and comics moreso than Howard's novels)

Oddly, not a lot of modern pop fantasy really fits. Dresden Files' emphasis on the Fey made it into 4E a bit. Harry Potter, though? Twilight? Percy Jackson? Not a whole lot. George RR Martin? Basically nothing.

Quote from: John Morrow;562990Legend of the Seeker

This appears to rock even harder than Merlin. Thank you sir for the recommendation.

Quote from: jibbajibba;563749I have yet to find any books where a party of novices hire 2 dozen bearers to carry their stuff into an old dungeon mind .....

Clark Ashton Smith (ironically, not in the AD&D 1e DMG Appendix N) has you covered.

Quote from: The Seven Geases, by Clark Ashton Smith (Weird Tales, October 1934)The Lord Ralibar Vooz, high magistrate of Commoriom and third cousin to King Homquat, had gone forth with six-and-twenty of his most valorous retainers in quest of such game as was afforded by the black Eiglophian Mountains. Leaving to lesser sportsmen the great sloths and vampire-bats of the intermediate jungle, as well as the small but noxious dinosauria, Ralibar Vooz and his followers had pushed rapidly ahead and had covered the distance between the Hyperborean capital and their objective in a day's march. The glassy scaurs and grim ramparts of Mount Voormithadreth, highest and most formidable of the Eiglophians, had beetled above them, wedging the sun with dark scoriac peaks at mid-afternoon, and walling the blazonries of sunset wholly from view. They had spent the night beneath its lowermost crags, keeping a ceaseless watch, piling dead branches on their fires, and hearing on the grisly heights above them the wild and dog-like ululations of those subhuman savages, the Voormis for which the mountain was named. Also, they heard the bellowing of an alpine catoblepas pursued by the Voormis, and the mad snarling of a saber-tooth tiger assailed and dragged down; and Ralibar Vooz had deemed that these noises boded well for the morrow's hunting.

He and his men rose betimes; and having breakfasted on their provisions of dried bear-meat and a dark sour wine that was noted far its invigorative qualities, they began immediately the ascent of the mountain, whose upper precipices were hollow with caves occupied by the Voormis. Ralibar Vooz had hunted these creatures before; and a certain room of his house in Commoriom was arrased with their thick and shaggy pelts. They were usually deemed the most dangerous of the Hyperborean fauna; and the mere climbing of Voormithadreth, even without the facing of its inhabitants, would have been a feat attended by more than sufficient peril: but Ralibar Vooz, having tasted of such sport, could now satisfy himself with nothing tamer.

He and his followers were well armed and accoutered. Some of the men bore coils of rope and grapplinghooks to be employed in the escalade of the steeper crags. Some carried heavy crossbows; and many were equipped with long-handled and saber-bladed bills which, from experience, had proved the most effective weapons in close-range fighting with the Voormis. The whole party was variously studded with auxiliary knives, throwing-darts, two-handed simitars, maces, bodkins and saw-toothed axes. The men were all clad in jerkins and hose of dinosaur-leather, and were shod with brazen-spiked buskins. Ralibar Vooz himself wore a light suiting of copper chain-mail, which, flexible as cloth, in no wise impeded his movements. In addition he carried a buckler of mammoth-hide with a long bronze spike in its center that could be used as a thrusting-sword; and, being a man of huge stature and strength, his shoulders and baldric were hung with a whole arsenal of weaponries.

Ralibar Vooz, High Magistrate of Commoriom. Male human F9; AC 1; HP 66; #at 1; dmg by weapon +2; ML 9; AL N; Str 17, Int 12, Wis 7, Dex 11, Con 14, Cha 13; +2 Commoriom copper chain mail (treat as elven chain mail), +1 spiked shield and 1d6 other magic weapons (roll as appropriate).

Valorous retainer (26). Male human F3; AC 7 (dinosaur leather jerkin); HP 15; #at 1; dmg by weapon (1d10 two-handed scimitar or sabre-balded bill, 1d8 saw-toothed axe, 1d6 mace, 1d4 knife, 1d8 heavy crossbow); ML 10 (they aren't called "valorous" for nothing); AL N; dinosaur leather jerkin, knife, throwing dart and one melee weapon (roll 1d6): polearm (1-3), two-handed sword (4), mace and shield (5), battle axe (6). 1 in 6 carries a heavy crossbow and a belt quiver with 20 bolts.

Quote from: Haffrung;563787You'll find bearers and so forth in the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs, who I'm pretty sure is cited in Appendix N. Those kind of expeditions are also found in the works of H. Rider Haggard (and the movies based on them). The whole exploring lost worlds sub-genre was still alive in the early 70s, but pretty much forgotten today.

Tarzan with a band of bearers or John Carter... usually its the bad guys that have bearers, and its used a metaphor for their weakness and inability to survive unaided.  

And in all those books the bearers always flee screaming leaving the heroic white man and the occassional noble savage to do the actual adventure....

King Solomon's Mines?

Quote from: The Butcher;564404Clark Ashton Smith (ironically, noy in the AD&D 1e DMG Appendix N) has you covered.

You can see why that style of fiction stayed so popular.....