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What was Your Favorite 1990s Game?

Started by RPGPundit, April 15, 2018, 10:54:23 PM

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Christopher Brady

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038669Only a shitty GM like you.

I don't 'play/run' mother may I games.  I have, however, been in several Amber games back in my early 20s and EVERY ONE of them who claimed to be an Amber GM, and they arbitrated the game completely differently than each other.  As in wildly different.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038669No, you base it on ridiculous libel and delusion.

Why are you taking this so personally?  I understand the truth sucks, but being upset isn't going to change it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038669By that logic any RPG where the GM has any kind of power at all (which is to say, ALL real RPGs) is "mother may I".

Well, yes, there is a degree of that to all role playing games, but picking on a D&D like system, which has a D20 as a determination agent, you roll it and IT determines whether or not an action occurs.  Now, whether or not the DM/GM/Storyteller agrees or not with that roll does not matter.  The fact is, that the dice is the final arbitrator.

Amber does not use that, it doesn't use anything at all, but the Story Teller to determine success or failure.  YOU decide the success.  "Mother May I succeed at 'This'?"

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038669Well, the FACT is that Roger Zelazny himself disagreed with you. Him and Erick were friends, and Roger not only supported the Amber RPG, he played it.

You've never given friends passes because they've used one of your products for something you think is cool?  I know I have.  And given how much you shill your own books, I have a hard time believing you wouldn't.  Hell, you try and justify all sorts of things with DCC, because you love it.  And I'm not slamming your love of these games, I don't know them at all.  Maybe your ideas are great, maybe they're not.  I don't know.

You're human though, you can be wrong.  Just like you accuse me of being.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038669Also, the notion that you don't think Erick understood the 'unreliable narrator' element suggests to me that you've never actually even read the Amber RPG books.

If you actually read the novels, which is written in the first person perspective by two different 'narrators', Corwin and his son Merlin, you'll find that they contradict each other in each of the series at several points.  That makes them 'unreliable narrators', which means the entire RPG is built on a flawed premise.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Christopher Brady

Quote from: AsenRG;1038946Which is to say, it's like all other RPGs out there:).

Citation needed.

Quote from: AsenRG;1038946That wouldn't be exactly the first game where Cupcake misunderstands. All the OSR gamers on this site can attest to it, I think;).
(It's funny how I'm not sure whether to include myself in this list).

Oh, Buttercup, you're so sweet trying to steal my schtick.  That you call yourself an 'OSR' gamer when you're younger than me, is adorable.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

RPGPundit

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1039082Amber does not use that, it doesn't use anything at all, but the Story Teller to determine success or failure.  YOU decide the success.  "Mother May I succeed at 'This'?"

Only if the person running it hasn't got the slightest clue how it's actually meant to work. If they do, they'll know there's very strict structures as far as determining whether something should succeed or not, with only a tiny degree of GM decision making not notably larger than what you get playing D&D.



QuoteIf you actually read the novels, which is written in the first person perspective by two different 'narrators', Corwin and his son Merlin, you'll find that they contradict each other in each of the series at several points.  That makes them 'unreliable narrators', which means the entire RPG is built on a flawed premise.

I notice you haven't answered the question: Did you even read the Amber RPG books?
Because your repeating this gross error of assumption suggests that you haven't read them at all.
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Willie the Duck

#123
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1039082Well, yes, there is a degree of that to all role playing games, but picking on a D&D like system, which has a D20 as a determination agent, you roll it and IT determines whether or not an action occurs.  Now, whether or not the DM/GM/Storyteller agrees or not with that roll does not matter.  The fact is, that the dice is the final arbitrator.

Amber does not use that, it doesn't use anything at all, but the Story Teller to determine success or failure.  YOU decide the success.  "Mother May I succeed at 'This'?"

I won't pretend to be in touch with the overall online gamer, but I don't think that's what most people would think is the distinguishing factor on what makes something a "Mother May I" game*. If only because there are lots of things that get called "Mother May I" games, and Amber is the only one I know of that doesn't use dice.
*and I'm damn close to sure there's no technical definition.

Mother May I, as I understand it, is more about the ruleset leaving 'what X allows you to do' vague. Rhyden, in and amongst some off-putting vitriol, had a good point about 5e skills being very DM-defined, both in terms of DCs and with what you can accomplish with them (sometimes without even rolling), particularly in comparison to 3e (which has a DC and a modifier for every situation, nevermind that many didn't have the patience for all the tables and that the results are often ridiculous). Hero System would seem to be the ur-example of an anti-'M.M.I?' game -- you know exactly what your character can do because you paid for each on in intricate detail, and the DM's 'may I' factor pretty much is limited to judgment calls like whether 'for fire only' is a -1/2 or -1/4 limitation on your PD cost (and whether or not lava counts as close enough to fire, etc.). Mage:the Ascension being perhaps pretty far in the other direction, with the game offering only slim guidelines on the magic rules and letting the Storyteller provide most of the control over how much X and Y spheres you need to make Z effect.

Amber (and let's be clear, I haven't read the game system) could be a M.M.I?-type game, but I don't think the lack of a dice would be the determining factor. If the game has (for instance) rules for picking locks (or whatever else is a common activity in the game) and rules about 'must have a Dex-like attribute to succeed, modified by 10 per level of quality of lock' or the like, then the game has well defined rules about what you can do with the game-defined traits, and wouldn't (in my mind) be very Mother May I-ish, in spite of the lack of a dice. That make sense?

RPGPundit

The rules in Amber are well-defined, but create leeway in terms of what the initial power levels are going to be delineated as. Of course a shitty GM could keep on altering those markers as he goes along, or an even shittier GM could just not have any notion of what they are to begin with and reduce everything to whatever he feels is cool at any moment, but they would be PLAYING AMBER WRONG.
Again, one of the problems is that while the rules are well-defined they are very poorly organized. For a game where you're basically playing gods, and the GM is expected to be the direct arbitrer of what happens (with no dice roll in the middle), that lack of organization can be a problem.

That's why in Lords of Olympus I went out of my way to write the rules in a way that things are very clearly defined, not hidden in examples or in places outside the main descriptions of things, so that people know (for example) just how long someone with a given level in an ability will take to accomplish something, how long they can do something for, how much certain types of advantageous terrains or situations can positively improve your chances against a superior opponent, or how badly something like facing multiple opponents or having certain levels of injury can negatively affect your chances against an inferior opponent, how much your luck is supposed to influence thing, how to switch a combat situation from being ruled by one ability score to another, etc. All stuff that sometimes had problems of organization in Amber.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you\'ve played \'medieval fantasy\' until you play L&D.


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The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Willie the Duck

#125
Okay, well poorly explained rules are a legitimate complaint against a system, but if that's what makes something 'mother may I,' then the term becomes redundant (since we already have a shorthand for the concept, 'poorly explained'). The leeway part I can get behind. That's MMI-ish.

I guess my question is, with the character creation and action resolution rules, can I know pretty reasonably 'my character can do this, this, and this, but not this, this, and this?' Using an example (that is deliberately out of scope for a game where you are 'basically playing gods') -- vaulting a 10' chasm/gap-over-long-fall. It is completely reasonable to say 'my character would know if this is something they could reasonably do, would never attempt (except in literal 'no other choice' situations) unless they had a reasonable chance of success, and it is unclear whether a game would make such a thing possible (since leaping 10' and landing successfully, much less with the kind of gear RPG characters usually wear, is pretty unlikely, but routinely happens in genre fiction most RPGs often emulate). Do I, the hypothetical guy making a character in this game system, have a good idea of whether my character could make that leap? That's the (arbitrary) example I might use to determine whether a game has mother-may-I tendencies.

Christopher Brady

Amber is what Mage the Ascension turned into, really.  Both games rely completely on the GM's interpretation of the world and it's 'reality'.  I remember a quote from somewhere, I think it was tongue in cheek, that if a game doesn't have rules for falling damage, it's not a real RPG.  There are zero benchmarks in doing activities other than conflicts with each other or the 'Elder' Amberites, which include several different versions of each of them, because not even Zelazny knew which one was the 'right' version, in fact, the book even claims it on page 121 that 'Zelazny doesn't say', that they don't know what about the setting is correct or not.  The entire GM's section is all about 'what ifs' or 'maybes?'

It's all up to the GM to decide everything.  It's a Mother May I to the extreme, even the 'Good Stuff'/'Bad Stuff', which is nothing more than supposed luck, is completely up to the whims of the GM.  Hope he likes you, otherwise, he'll screw you.  The entire game is based around inter-player conflict too.


Pundy, I'm going to call you out, after rereading my copy of Amber.  You rail a lot about 'Storygamers' and 'Storygaming', and yet, this favourite game of yours is THE Storygame of the 90's.

In several points in the Amber core book, it speaks to making character stories, page 122 has 'Story Composition'.  In the combat section it has a small bit on Combat as Story Telling, page 81.  The entire book is a manual on how to do a Storygame as per your personal definition.

You cannot justify this, you'll no doubt try, but damn, this is a 'Story Game' as you justify your hatred.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Brad

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1040081Pundy, I'm going to call you out, after rereading my copy of Amber.  You rail a lot about 'Storygamers' and 'Storygaming', and yet, this favourite game of yours is THE Storygame of the 90's.

In several points in the Amber core book, it speaks to making character stories, page 122 has 'Story Composition'.  In the combat section it has a small bit on Combat as Story Telling, page 81.  The entire book is a manual on how to do a Storygame as per your personal definition.

You cannot justify this, you'll no doubt try, but damn, this is a 'Story Game' as you justify your hatred.

I disagree. Amber has no meta-mechanic for pushing a "story", unlike every single storygame out there.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Opaopajr

I cannot split my baby, Solomon! :( Let her raise the child, my precious.

:p I loves them all, equally... when they ask me in public. :)
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
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Christopher Brady

Quote from: Brad;1040085I disagree. Amber has no meta-mechanic for pushing a "story", unlike every single storygame out there.

The fuck?  Seriously?  Did you even read the core book?  I EVEN POINTED OUT WHERE IT DOES!  My copy has it on Page 122, which is the Amber 'RPG' Core Book, Fourth Printing, 1999.  The chapter title is, and I will put in ALL caps and BOLD it for you to read it:  STORY COMPOSITION

Or are you just trolling me, by implying that because the entire RPG itself doesn't actually have any real mechanics to speak of, it's not a game?  If so, well played.  Ya got me, I concede defeat.

However, I do have to admit I was wrong.  I once claimed that Wujcik did not get that the setting was written by the 'unreliable narrator' trope, but on page 124 of the Fourth Printing, under Campaign Ideas, he puts in 'Corwin LIES' as a paragraph heading.  I missed that.  To which I apologize.  But it still doesn't change my point that as a game world, Amber is problematic, because nothing we really know of it is 'right'.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]

Brad

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1040255The fuck?  Seriously?  Did you even read the core book?  I EVEN POINTED OUT WHERE IT DOES!  My copy has it on Page 122, which is the Amber 'RPG' Core Book, Fourth Printing, 1999.  The chapter title is, and I will put in ALL caps and BOLD it for you to read it:  STORY COMPOSITION

Or are you just trolling me, by implying that because the entire RPG itself doesn't actually have any real mechanics to speak of, it's not a game?  If so, well played.  Ya got me, I concede defeat.

However, I do have to admit I was wrong.  I once claimed that Wujcik did not get that the setting was written by the 'unreliable narrator' trope, but on page 124 of the Fourth Printing, under Campaign Ideas, he puts in 'Corwin LIES' as a paragraph heading.  I missed that.  To which I apologize.  But it still doesn't change my point that as a game world, Amber is problematic, because nothing we really know of it is 'right'.

I'm trolling because I pointed out, rightfully so, that there's no explicit meta-mechanic in Amber? Completely unlike FATE or one of those Apocalypse games?
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Willie the Duck

Chris, as I have said, I have never actually seen the game. What, in the rules, is 'storygaming'-like?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1040081In several points in the Amber core book, it speaks to making character stories, page 122 has 'Story Composition'.  In the combat section it has a small bit on Combat as Story Telling, page 81.  The entire book is a manual on how to do a Storygame as per your personal definition.

Yes, but how?

Quote from: Brad;1040256I'm trolling because I pointed out, rightfully so, that there's no explicit meta-mechanic in Amber? Completely unlike FATE or one of those Apocalypse games?


Can you give me a concrete example?

Brad

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1040264Can you give me a concrete example?

https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/fate-points

The whole Moves system for PbtA (always makes me think of piitb...) is a narrative device.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Willie the Duck

Right, got it. Okay, I'm always a little hedgy on what doesn't makes a game a story game (such as, 'is the Vampire the Masquerade humanity meter a storygaming element?') and sometimes disagree on things other people do (IMO, 'luck points' that you spend on save rerolls once a story or the like are just another ablative pacing element, not storygaming). But these I get and agree with. If your game has the equivalent of "Invoking an Aspect", or "Declaring a Story Detail," then it is a story game (or has a storygaming element). You are saying that Amber has none of these? Chris, is that accurate?

Christopher Brady

OK, so in the Amber core book, under page 122, it starts going about how a story built, with a section detailing a 'Beginning, Middle and End', then the Hook, Conflict, Character Development, Closure, Moral Resolution, all elements of a story.  It doesn't have any 'Plot Modifier' currencies, because there's nothing random to try again for.  You cannot challenge the GM's ruling, as everything is determined by them, even their 'Good Stuff' or 'Bad Stuff' which is literally what the game calls it's 'Luck' system, and it's still all up to the GM to decide what happens.
"And now, my friends, a Dragon\'s toast!  To life\'s little blessings:  wars, plagues and all forms of evil.  Their presence keeps us alert --- and their absence makes us grateful." -T.A. Barron[/SIZE]