Quote from: Doc Sammy;916649Well, I personally loved Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game, and I think most of the hatred it gets nowadays

It gets hatred?

You mean people actually remember it?

Like I said, the core book's good, the supplements...many of the NPCs were thinly veiled parodies of the dev team.  Instead of thinly veiled expies of the MK/SNK characters, which is what it should have been...

Quote from: Simlasa;916650More on topic: When people say 2e Vampire is that the same as NWoD?

No. "Old" World of Darkness covers Vampire 1st edition, 2nd edition, and 3rd edition.  "New" WoD ditches the metaplot and history and uses entirely different mechanics.

Quote from: daniel_ream;916615Unless it's about sex.

Or HIV.

Or being gay.

Those are silly and offensive metaphors.

Sex: are we talking a pathological sex addiction? Pedophile priests? Domestic rape? Because vampirism as metaphor for women's sexual freedom is offensive.

HIV: people with HIV don't eat people. Also offensive.

Gay: ditto.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;916674Those are silly and offensive metaphors.

Sex: are we talking a pathological sex addiction? Pedophile priests? Domestic rape? Because vampirism as metaphor for women's sexual freedom is offensive.

HIV: people with HIV don't eat people. Also offensive.

Gay: ditto.

Well, you may want to take that up with Bram Stoker, le Fanu, Anne Rice and Charlaine Harris then, you bitchy little outage fetishist.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;916674Those are silly and offensive metaphors.

Sex: are we talking a pathological sex addiction? Pedophile priests? Domestic rape? Because vampirism as metaphor for women's sexual freedom is offensive.

HIV: people with HIV don't eat people. Also offensive.

Gay: ditto.

Nice virtue signaling. You roaches really are everywhere, aren't you?

Anyway, offended? We don't care.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;916595There are a number of vampire clones already. Off the top of my head: Undying, Vampire City, Urban Shadows, Bloodsucker... What makes another stand out?

Good for them! I want to write a Vampire game for me, to play. I only know Urban Shadows, which is good but not what I'm going for. Do any of those other games focus on the passing of time and gaining power through age rather than just spending experience points?

Regardless, I ain't a game writer and have never published anything so don't worry: I won't further dilute the industry. Phew bullet dodged!

Essentially, the game we played as group when Vampire first came out was largely a facsimile of the cyberpunk games that were out at the same time. A street gang, who had to make a literal killing in a heist-ey fashion, being scuppered on the way by older, more powerful vampires (who tended to act in a similar way to megacorporations, in effect).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;916674Those are silly and offensive metaphors.

Sex: are we talking a pathological sex addiction? Pedophile priests? Domestic rape? Because vampirism as metaphor for women's sexual freedom is offensive.

HIV: people with HIV don't eat people. Also offensive.

Gay: ditto.

You are missing the point of all three of those metaphors. These are pretty old metaphors for vampirism. When people treat vampirism as something like HIV, it is about the fear of such a disease (not a suggestion that people with HIV behave like vampires). The connection to vampires and sex, is just obvious. The gay connection is because it is a way to talk about homosexuality indirectly, often by gay writers (again not because you are comparing gay people to blood sucking monsters). But this stuff has been present in stories about vampires for a long time.

Can't we all agree on this simple thing?

World of Darkness is proof that Goths ruin everything (even things that start out as awesome) and that punk rock sucks.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916745Can't we all agree on this simple thing?

World of Darkness is proof that Goths ruin everything (even things that start out as awesome) and that punk rock sucks.

I vehemently disagree. It was the Anime and comic book fans who ruined WoD.

Quote from: daniel_ream;916682Well, you may want to take that up with Bram Stoker, le Fanu, Anne Rice and Charlaine Harris then, you bitchy little outage fetishist.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;916695Nice virtue signaling. You roaches really are everywhere, aren't you?

Anyway, offended? We don't care.

I'm not personally offended and I'm not an SJW if you think so. I don't think the metaphors work because vampires are predators who rape, eat and infect people.

Quote from: Necrozius;916696Good for them! I want to write a Vampire game for me, to play. I only know Urban Shadows, which is good but not what I'm going for. Do any of those other games focus on the passing of time and gaining power through age rather than just spending experience points?

Regardless, I ain't a game writer and have never published anything so don't worry: I won't further dilute the industry. Phew bullet dodged!

Dilution is not the problem. Not learning from existing examples results in subpar games. Hence the term "heartbreaker." All those games are available on OneBookShelf last I checked.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;916730You are missing the point of all three of those metaphors. These are pretty old metaphors for vampirism. When people treat vampirism as something like HIV, it is about the fear of such a disease (not a suggestion that people with HIV behave like vampires). The connection to vampires and sex, is just obvious. The gay connection is because it is a way to talk about homosexuality indirectly, often by gay writers (again not because you are comparing gay people to blood sucking monsters). But this stuff has been present in stories about vampires for a long time.

Yes. Sadly those metaphors don't work in today's so-called "enlightened" society where only a lunatic fringe consider those things anathema. Vampires commit crimes to feed and potentially afflict others with their condition. Addiction has a much closer resemblance compared to a homosexual who got HIV by swinging.

Quote from: Necrozius;916750I vehemently disagree. It was the Anime and comic book fans who ruined WoD.

First off, I'm not a comic book fan. I prefer anime over that Marvel and DC garbage any day of the week.

Second, I disagree. The anime and comic book stuff makes WoD fun instead of pretentious and wangsty.

Trenchcoats and Katanas mixed with politics is so much more fun than whiny and wangsty Personal Horror games.

At least that's how I see it. So let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;916753I'm not personally offended and I'm not an SJW if you think so. I don't think the metaphors work because vampires are predators who rape, eat and infect people.

Yes. Sadly those metaphors don't work in today's so-called "enlightened" society where only a lunatic fringe consider those things anathema. Vampires commit crimes to feed and potentially afflict others with their condition. Addiction has a much closer resemblance compared to a homosexual who got HIV by swinging.

I agree with you here, and the addiction angle is the primary way "bad guy vampire" stories seem to take today. Plus, it's already well established as the backdrop for being a ghoul in VTM fiction. What a monster represents has to change over time to remain relevant (Zombies as American culture's mindless herd following of norms------> Zombies as more of a metaphor for social isolation and disconnection in modern society). While it would be wrong to retroactively try to apply this to older vampire stories, I do think modern games should adapt to the times to remain relevant. What kind of holds it back, on the TTRPG side, is the general older age of RPG designers and the tendency for games to try and replicate older games. Seguing into:

QuoteDilution is not the problem. Not learning from existing examples results in subpar games. Hence the term "heartbreaker." All those games are available on OneBookShelf last I checked.

Preach. Probably my biggest critique of the OSR style of game is a tendency to take old mechanisms, patch them and slap a coat on paint on them, without thinking about why those mechanisms were used, what were their roots and how they could be improved. Major anathema: we use dice because that was the available RNG at the time. Any modern game designer should spend at least a minute or two asking "do I need dice here", even just for shits and giggles. For example, Malifaux's use of cards for its RNG greatly speeds up gameplay.

Don't Retroclone a game without going through it bit by bit like you were making a completely new game and asking "why does this rule exist, does it need to exist, and if yes, how can it be better". The OWOD had a fundamentally broken combat system where 40 children with sticks were the equivalent of a werewolf because a combat dice was a combat dice. At the time, it was okay because the system was new and people didn't plan out all the emergent consequences. Replicating it is inexcusable.

A good example of the proper mindset, in my view, is what the new Doom did. The designers went into it wanting to replicating the core pillars of the old game (high speed combat, horror aesthetics combined with blood and metal to create deliberately silly atmosphere) while adapting to modern norms (shift of shooter gameplay from primarily a puzzle based system "take these resources and complete the level under those limitations", with the primary skill being dodging in corridor heavy level design, to skill based gameplay centered around accurate shooting while moving at a high pace in large arena based levels). It is a "retroclone" in a lot of ways, but it took advantage of modern developments to improve the old game while preserving its feel. The same goes for the current trend of 8 and 16 bit games. While they keep the feel of old games, they also applied a modern level of usability, player interface, and inventory management.

The strange thing is that I was drawn to WoD because of its modern setting, but now I prefer Dark Ages over the Modern Nights due to the metaplot being less intrusive and that Dark Ages fans tend to be less hung up on metaplot and personal horror as a rule.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;916765The strange thing is that I was drawn to WoD because of its modern setting, but now I prefer Dark Ages over the Modern Nights due to the metaplot being less intrusive and that Dark Ages fans tend to be less hung up on metaplot and personal horror as a rule.

Dark Ages also kind of works better logic wise these days. I've noticed that a lot of the city politics in WoD are really dependent on the high level of gang violence in the 1990s. You could have the Sabbat chucking waves of people at Cammy interests in the streets at night, and it wouldn't break the suspension of disbelief that it wasn't raising alarms. While gang violence has hardly disappeared (see Chicago), you don't exactly have low scale war for street corners anymore either.

Quote from: IskandarKebab;916774Dark Ages also kind of works better logic wise these days. I've noticed that a lot of the city politics in WoD are really dependent on the high level of gang violence in the 1990s. You could have the Sabbat chucking waves of people at Cammy interests in the streets at night, and it wouldn't break the suspension of disbelief that it wasn't raising alarms. While gang violence has hardly disappeared (see Chicago), you don't exactly have low scale war for street corners anymore either.

True. Oddly enough, the earliest published setting in Masquerade (Chicago by Night 1e) is really the only setting that holds up in this day and age. The Revised Edition "X by Night" books are too bloated with metaplot to really function as their own setting and most of the 2e "X by Night" settings are too ridiculous to be taken seriously, especially Berlin and Los Angeles. Montreal by Night was decent for a Sabbat book, although fairly crass.