To be on topic I'll say one thing about it that really annoys me.

The size and shape.

It's a total bloody pain to put on a bookshelf, it sticks out into the room.  I remember GMS once whinging that gamers were tossers who hated change for objecting to this, but it is a bloody pain for storage.

I've decided to sell my copy, as I doubt I will ever run it (I don't dislike it but nor do I like it enough to run) but I can't even put it in my box of games for sale as it's the wrong shape and I'll have to get creative on packaging if I ever do sell it as it won't fit the usual envelopes.

The size and shape are annoying.  More games should be like Burning Wheel, that's a good size and shape.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaFinally, I'm not entirely pleased with all of the art in the GWB.

Agreed, although someone might say that fortunately there isn't all that much of it... Some of the pieces are not exactly in keeping with the rest of the book. Still, that's a minor nitpick, like the tome's unwieldy tendency to brain grannies in cramped buses.

Quote from: GrimGentWhat on Earth gave you that idea? You always know your own characteristics, and how much power it would take to perform a given miracle. You don't know the abilities of anyone else unless they have been revealed in some way.

Uh ... and other than Auctoritas, are there any other factors that have any relevance on whether I can (for instance) consume my opponent in a giant fireball?  I suppose there are things like Immortality that grant instant healing, and I might not know about those, but his rank in (for instance) Domain doesn't mean anything to my attack, if I've correctly understood the rules.

Quote from: GrimGentPenetration represents drawing on the miraculous energies coursing through your subtle body (the MPs, mechanically) in order to gather enough force to pierce the enemy's sphere of authority. It's really no different from pouring more power into a miracle under any other circumstances.

Uh ... no.  Pouring more power into a miracle to bring it from (say) Lesser Creation to Major Creation has a powerful effect on the story proper:  You're doing something observably more.  You're not just putting the princess to sleep.  You're putting the entire kingdom, the princess, her family, the peasants, the livestock, everything into a magical sleep (and maybe surrounding the land itself with an impenetrable wall of thorns).

Like, I like the big battle scene between Wolverine and Deathstrike in X-2.  You can tell that they're really going at it.  Why?  Because they fuckin' fillet each other, and they're groaning as they get up, and they're bleeding all over the place.

I don't like the big battle scene between Phoenix and Prof. X in X-3.  They just sit there and look constipated at each other, and then there's a flash of light and Prof. X gets pixelated to death.  Eh.

That's how Penetration comes across to me ... it's some Power sitting there and furrowing his brow really hard.  Big whoop.  How do you make that into something that speaks to me, as audience?

Quote from: TonyLBUh ... and other than Auctoritas, are there any other factors that have any relevance on whether I can (for instance) consume my opponent in a giant fireball?  I suppose there are things like Immortality that grant instant healing, and I might not know about those, but his rank in (for instance) Domain doesn't mean anything to my attack, if I've correctly understood the rules.

Of course it does: for one thing, even if it pierces the Auctoritas, your fireball can be blocked by any miracle of equal power, no matter whether it uses Aspect, Domain or Realm. Your victim could simply dodge.

QuoteUh ... no.  Pouring more power into a miracle to bring it from (say) Lesser Creation to Major Creation has a powerful effect on the story proper:  You're doing something observably more.

That's not what I meant. If you wish, you can pour more power into that Lesser Creation without turning it into a Major miracle, for reasons of subtlety or propriety.

The thing that I can't stand about Nobilis are all the goddamn threads about it.

I didn't even know about this game three weeks ago (I thought it was a supplement for Exalted or something else I had zero interest in).

Now it dominates the front page of the forum.  

I just wanna roll some fucking dice, man.

Quote from: GrimGentThat's not what I meant. If you wish, you can pour more power into that Lesser Creation without turning it into a Major miracle, for reasons of subtlety or propriety.

Oh ... so there are provisions for conducting the combat at a completely meta-game level in other areas of the system?  Okay.  Then I revise my criticism.  It's not "out of place."  It still strikes me as a stupid way to do things, that produces results that (from the point of view of the perceivable fiction) are strikingly random and therefore meaningless.

If you're such a fan of it then tell me ... how do you make it work for someone with my sensibilities?  Someone who wants to see an in-fiction reason that the fireball turns the villain into a charcoal briquette rather than whiffing harmlessly (or vice versa)?

Quote from: BalbinusThe size and shape are annoying.  More games should be like Burning Wheel, that's a good size and shape.

If only to encourage shorter, more succinct rules text.  I was at first taken aback by that smaller format. But I've found I quickly grew very acustomed to it. It's damn handy in many ways.

P.S. Maybe Nobilis doesn't want to be on a shelf or in a box? Maybe it is telling you "I'm beautiful, put me on your coffee table!" Seriously, that's the sort of shape for "coffee table" books. Maybe that was the intention? Which of course you are free to hate......as a whiny piece of trash that will be thrown into the gutter by Madman's manservant. :emot-grouchy:

Quote from: TonyLBOh ... so there are provisions for conducting the combat at a completely meta-game level in other areas of the system?  Okay.  Then I revise my criticism.  It's not "out of place."  It still strikes me as a stupid way to do things, that produces results that (from the point of view of the perceivable fiction) are strikingly random and therefore meaningless.

But there's nothing metagame about it. Even "one MP" stands for enough supernatural power within you to perform a single normal miracle. The Auctoritas, the reserves of miraculous force surging through you, the transfiguration of the body through Aspect... All these things exist within the setting. Frankly, I can't think of a single mechanical detail that doesn't have an in-game equivalent, with the possible exception of character points.

QuoteIf you're such a fan of it then tell me ... how do you make it work for someone with my sensibilities?  Someone who wants to see an in-fiction reason that the fireball turns the villain into a charcoal briquette rather than whiffing harmlessly (or vice versa)?

As said, the Auctoritas exists within that fiction of the game world: if the fireball simply fizzles out, there is a reason for it, understood by the characters. And if the villlain defends himself by dodging to the side with an inhuman speed, quicker than the eye, that's yet another reason why the attack missed.

Quote from: blakkieIf only to encourage shorter, more succinct rules text.  I was at first taken aback by that smaller format. But I've found I quickly grew very acustomed to it. It's damn handy in many ways.

P.S. Maybe Nobilis doesn't want to be on a shelf or in a box? Maybe it is telling you "I'm beautiful, put me on your coffee table!" Seriously, that's the sort of shape for "coffee table" books. Maybe that was the intention? Which of course you are free to hate......as a whiny piece of trash that will be thrown into the gutter by Madman's manservant. :emot-grouchy:

It's definitely intended to be a coffee table book, but that triggers two other issues for me.

One, I see the trend to marketing books on issues other than utility in play as being a disaster for the hobby and this is part of that.  This is a book physically designed to be admired rather than easily used.

Two, I hate coffee table books.  Regardless of topic pretty much, books are for reading, books for admiration as physical objects are for illiterates.

I'll grant that the size and shape of the book aren't really something to hate about it.

So I'll go with that other thing. I hate diceless games. They're not RPGs.

Quote from: Balbinus...I see the trend to marketing books on issues other than utility in play as being a disaster for the hobby and this is part of that.

You mean like the multiple-variant, metallic ink covers for comics that helped cripple the industry back in the 90s?  And ultra-rare cards for collectible card games?  Products that were produced with the very intention of being sealed and stored away, which is entirely anathema to the industries that produced them.  Yeah, for this reason, I still love my LPB edition of Nobilis, which is the same size as Burning Wheel.

QuoteTwo, I hate coffee table books.  Regardless of topic pretty much, books are for reading, books for admiration as physical objects are for illiterates.

Okay, you're going a bit far here.  The format of the book serves a number of different purposes, collections of photography and art reproductions among them (not that I'm roping the GWB in among them).

!i!

Quote from: Christmas ApeSo I'll go with that other thing. I hate diceless games. They're not RPGs.

Hm.  So, then, what are they?

!i!

Quote from: Alyson HanniganThe thing that I can't stand about Nobilis are all the goddamn threads about it.

I didn't even know about this game three weeks ago (I thought it was a supplement for Exalted or something else I had zero interest in).

Now it dominates the front page of the forum.

I agree with Willow.

Quote from: BalbinusNothing at all that can't easily be cured by not playing it.

Zing!

Me, I don't hate it, but I ain't havin' its babies, either.  Folks who like it can do their thing and I will do mine, and hell if I know what anyone gains from talking smack on it. Venting anger? Okay, maybe...but if you're angry it exists, I think you've got more to worry about.