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Just out of curiosity.  What's the most you have paid? What's the most you could imagine yourself paying for one? What would influence your decision?

65 dollars and that is it.  That is my cut off point for hard covers.

For a PDF, around $20. It depends on the content. I usually wait for sales. If I walk into the Sentry Box, if it's around $20ish dollars and really good (like when I saw DCC and on a similar occasion with BRP Gold Book) there's just no way I'm walking out without it. I think Adventures in Middle Earth was around $55, but I had to have it. I got Blue Rose yesterday. That cost me about $70 but that was a Kickstarter. I am more wary of Kickstarters as shipping costs from the US have skyrocketed. Oh, and Canada Customs thinks it's a fun idea to charge you a $10 fee for $1.72 worth of tax. :D The Strange probably cost me $90 including shipping. That was nuts. My upper limit is around $60ish unless it's something I really want. If you have book I want and it's a perfect bound functional book, then I'd probably pay a max of around $40ish. If you go over $50 it better be a pretty book. ;D It also depends on how likely I am to use it.

I bought The World's Largest Dungeon for $80 (I think the retail was $100). I had more disposable income then and probably wouldn't repeat. Ended up trading it for some boxed set, I think either the Wilderlands of High Fantasy or the DCC setting.

These days probably $50. PDF, $10.

Assuming great content and production value, $60 for a hardcover book, $20 for a PDF.

In Canadian $75 max.

Considering the low volume of purchases I make, price is not really the issue. Even if it's $80, I can spring for the two or three must-haves of the year. The rest is just a few PDFs here and there.

Recently paid £42 for 5e Tome of Beasts. I think that's the most for a single book.

For a high quality 'campaign in a book' type product like Ptolus or Razor Coast I would happily pay £100+.

I bought the (two book) Guide to Glorantha for £125 and that is only a campaign world, but happily paid for it.

I'm one of those gamers who is time-poor but with disposable income. And a good campaign provides a lot of entertainment for your £/$.

ETA: What would influence my decision?

• Production values (sad but true...)
• Game system (if it's GURPS, I'll pay double. Seriously)
• Amount of game play it supports (ideally over 100 hours at the table)
• Structure (ideally sand-box with stuff for the players to interact with)
• Theme, which is tricky as the theme that attracts could vary over time

It depends. I'll go deep for something I'll get a lot of use out of, but I'll balk at more than $5 or $10 for a PDF I'm unsure of. I dropped (in USD) $100 on the two volumes of the Guide to Glorantha, and they're a great value from any angle. I could run games from those for rest of my days. Those books are huge; if they were printed at a normal size, 256 pages each, there would have been at least four volumes.

I picked up a copy of that Judges Guild Deluxe Collector's Edition that Goodman Games put out. It went for USD $100 on the Kickstarter, but I found a retailer in Canada offering it for CAD $90 (about USD $65). For great copies of three Judges Guild adventures, a few of their zines and a few articles, I'm happy with that price.

$10 for a PDF. I'm not interested in hardcopies.

For something I knew didn't suck? $200.

$50 for a hardcover. $20 for a pdf (but I would have to be in a goddamn good mood).

I bought the leather cover version of the classic Deadlands at GenCon one year from Pinnacle.  It is actual leather with the Deadlands logo branded into it, signed and it's the player's and GM's book all in one.  I think I paid $150 for it, maybe a little more.  Then I took it when I met Bruce Campbell and had him sign it too (he wrote the forward to the player's guide).

I have a few other collector's editions of things but that was the most expensive.

There have been a few PoD books that were in the $80 range, but they came with the pdf bundled in.

Normally $40 is a tipping point for me.  If it's more than that I need to have A.) played it myself and really enjoyed it, B.) have a group ready and willing to play it, in which case I don't mind being the one to fork out for it, or C.) read it and thought I could get enough value out of the setting material by being able to export chunks into other games.

I pre-ordered Ptolus, so I guess that is my historical limit.  I doubt I'd repeat the act on another book, and certainly not pre-order.  For something I want bad, I suppose I'd still go close to $100, but no one is producing that. The thing is, if a book has enough content to drive a hardback up over about 300-400 pages, I'd rather have it in two or more soft cover books.  There are hard backs that I wouldn't pay $50 for, but would happily pay $60 for three well-arranged soft covers with the same content.  Though in fairness, that's probably because I'd buy 1 or 2 of the soft covers and ignore the rest.  OTOH, I don't want 400 pages dribbled out over many $5 and $10 PDFs, either.

Consider the D&D 5E PHB.  It's a good deal, especially discounted online, and I'm glad it's available in hardback as an option.  But I would have quite happily paid $10 to $15 dollars more total for the option to get it in three soft covers:  One character creation, one magic, and one with the rest of the material.  It's be more useful at the table, especially if the sections/charts took advantage of the multiple front and back sections.

Maybe $80, perhaps more, though I'd be annoyed at the price. How much I'm willing to pay mainly has to do with content, and slightly with presentation. I did go in for the Aquelarre Kickstarter at over $60, even though I almost certainly won't play the actual system, and at most will probably just enjoy reading it, as inspiration, and possibly adapting a thing or two for other games.

It would depend a lot on how likely I am to actually use the material, which for me means it has to either be just what I want already, or be adaptable material like reusable battle maps or counters (but again at the scale/style I would use, so pretty unlikely).

I went for the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Kickstarter at $50+, though it's not a single book. Even as a dedicated GURPS player, there are several GURPS 4e hardback sourcebooks I would like to own but don't buy because I think I don't want to pay the $30 price for. I end up buying just the ones I will mainly use and want to keep referencing as a book, and not the ones that are cool and interesting but that wouldn't really be core rules for me. If they were $15-20 softcovers, I would be much more likely to snap those up. As $20 PDFs, I also resist because it's too close to the $30 hardcover price and seems excessive for data in a format I don't like much (PDF is a bit annoying to read, although it can be good for creating my own versions of the books that only has the stuff I want and edits the stuff I want to change and then printing my own personal edition).

I paid $150 for DUNE: CHRONICLES OF THE IMPERIUM. But that was a rare buy!

I've purchased Ptolus and the Guide to Glorantha. But, I'm big into Glorantha, so that was a fan purchase. For Ptolus, it seemed like a all-I-would-need high production product.

Probably around $65 - but that's not written in stone.

$100 for box set. $60 for a hardcover book. $30 for softcover. $10 for PDF.

If games I'm interested in are less than this maximum guideline, I'm much more likely to make a purchase rather than wait for a discount.

My standard limit is $60 for a book. But I rarely buy any game as an early adopter, so I read a lot of reviews, do my due-diligence to make sure it comes close to my tastes.

Even then, there are always exceptions. By all accounts I shouldn't be playing FFG's Star Wars... yet here I am and I own every single book they're produced for all three lines, and I enjoy them all.

I would never pay more than $30 for a softcover.

Can't really answer about a hypothetical book as my answer depends upon the contents of the book and what value I'd place on it. I'd probably pay $30 for a decent copy of 2nd edition Boot Hill. I paid whatever the Amazon price was at the time for Dark Albion. Probably wouldn't pay much more than that as this is just a hobby for me and not a money pit and I try to refrain from buying things I know deep down I'll probably never get to play.

As for PDFs, I don't like them so I'll pay zero since I'd have to spend money printing them out for my use.

I'm in for $100 on the Mutant Crawl Classics kickstarter, but that includes a half dozen adventure modules and a map.  I don't think I have a hard cutoff though.  If the quality is worth more, I'm ok with paying more.

For a new, very high production value book of someone I know beforehand has unfailingly delivered the goods, I could go as high as $200.

For rare collectors pieces I can go stupidly high.

Think around 40$ is the most spent on one book so far. 35$ is my usual cut off point so if I cant get it at discount from whatever retail is then probably no. 50 is probably the top end for what I'd spend on one book.

And Im no way in hell spending 60$+ on a PDF of a reprint of a module.

For me it largely depends on why the book seems to be priced the way it is, but I don't think I've ever paid more than 80 for a book. Generally if it is over 50, that is a big deterrent and I am a lot less likely to buy it on a whim. I am most comfortable at 20-40.

The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.

I am deleting my content.

I recommend you do the same.

I paid $100 for Slumbering Tsar Saga. It's a huge book (nearly 1000 pages) but I think maybe it was too expensive. In this case it was volume of content that swayed me.

Obviously, who the author is and what the book is about are what interest me in a book. Whether I think the book if good value for money is influenced mainly by page count, artwork and layout. Not that any of them are particularly reliable measures.

Quote from: dbm;961825For a high quality 'campaign in a book' type product like Ptolus or Razor Coast I would happily pay £100+.

I bought the (two book) Guide to Glorantha for £125 and that is only a campaign world, but happily paid for it.

I'm one of those gamers who is time-poor but with disposable income. And a good campaign provides a lot of entertainment for your £/$.

Me too. But I find it a lot easier to spend £70 on cobbling together 6 Paizo softback APs than to spend £60 on a single hardback.

I think having crossed the £40 barrier I'd probably go to £49.99 but would really struggle at £50+. But I'll snap up something like the Rise of the Runelords hardback ca £35 (not hardbacks from WotC though, seen too many crap adventures from them).

What I've found interesting about this thread is the low value placed on pdf's when the content is identical to the hard copy version. Even allowing for the cost of production of a hard copy book the disparity between the two formats is skewed very much in favour of paying much higher sums for hard copy compared to soft copy pdf's.

I think the most I've ever paid for a PDF is between £40-£50 for Fate of the Norns. For a book I recall paying over £75 on an impulse buy of the leather bound copy of Dark Heresy but not the exact amount. Never played either game.

Production values, writing and topic are my three criteria for choosing what I buy. Generally I prefer PDFs these days unless a game lives in the dark ages and forces my hand otherwise.

Am still considering the Glorantha Guide but since I'll be running a homebrew with Mythras it's another impulse purchase

Quote from: RPGPundit;961796Just out of curiosity.  What's the most you have paid? What's the most you could imagine yourself paying for one? What would influence your decision?

I'd say off the top of my head, about thirty bucks, hardcover. I have made exceptions. I paid 50 for my Dark Sun original boxed set. But that of course included two softcovers plus two flipbooks and the map. I did buy DCC, so whatever that cost. 40 bucks I think? I'll break 30 for something I really want.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;962064What I've found interesting about this thread is the low value placed on pdf's when the content is identical to the hard copy version. Even allowing for the cost of production of a hard copy book the disparity between the two formats is skewed very much in favour of paying much higher sums for hard copy compared to soft copy pdf's.

There is a big markup involved in print copies: printing costs, distribution costs. Unless Kickstarted, these costs have to be paid upfront. A print run has to be ordered to ensure you break even. With PDF it's just the overhead taken by OBS or other online PDF store and this is per sale.

I think the question here is whether the mark up on printing is 50% of the cover price, in which case PDFs are fairly priced, or whether publishers are deliberately overpricing PDFs.

For a PDF, $20. For a hardcover $60. But there is a caveat. There is a price to page count ratio metric that I apply. Roughly 100 pages per ten dollars. Give or take. I did once pay a bit more for a leather bound hardcover but it was leather bound. I sort of regret the game as I don't like it. But I still like the idea of owning a leather bound role-playing game book.

Quote from: yojimbouk;962076There is a big markup involved in print copies: printing costs, distribution costs. Unless Kickstarted, these costs have to be paid upfront. A print run has to be ordered to ensure you break even. With PDF it's just the overhead taken by OBS or other online PDF store and this is per sale.

I think the question here is whether the mark up on printing is 50% of the cover price, in which case PDFs are fairly priced, or whether publishers are deliberately overpricing PDFs.

A lot of small press companies no longer do things like print runs but use POD to produce just enough hard copies to satisfy current demand and bring in a new batch when needed. No longer is the 2000 copy print run a necessity or even likely for a small publisher. Places like Lulu will act as your printer/distributor/shipper for a small consideration.

No-one selling a pdf for $10 a pop is ever going to make any money/break even based on even the smallest per hour rate for writing the work.

Quote from: yojimbouk;962076I think the question here is whether the mark up on printing is 50% of the cover price, in which case PDFs are fairly priced, or whether publishers are deliberately overpricing PDFs.

The pre-production cost is still quite large and, increasingly, PDFs are becoming as important, if not more, than print. So I think that is part of it. I don't think many people are laughing all the way to the bank. My understanding is most PDFs sell just tens of copies. In fact, unless you see a popular copper seller tag on it, its doubtful that the PDF has sold more than 70 copies.

Another aspect to it is on the OBS end. I am biased, as my own products were impacted by this, but they changed the algorithm for the way the top 100 list was calculated earlier this year. Before it was based on number of copies sold. Now it is based on revenue. So if PDF A sells 10 copies of a PDF for 2 dollars each, and PDF B sells 3 copies but charges 7 dollars for each, then PDF B will be higher on the top 100 list which will give it a better chance of being seen by customers when they log into RPGnow or DriveThruRPG (previously PDF A would have been higher on the top 100 list). I don't know if it has actually driven up prices or not. I suspect it will over time. In fairness it does mean you will have fewer cheap PDFs cluttering the top seller list (and OBS also has to do what is best for their business).

Lessee

I bought Ptolus
I declined to back Invisible Sun

So I guess that suggests the answer is at least $100, but less than what? $200?

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;962064What I've found interesting about this thread is the low value placed on pdf's when the content is identical to the hard copy version. Even allowing for the cost of production of a hard copy book the disparity between the two formats is skewed very much in favour of paying much higher sums for hard copy compared to soft copy pdf's.

Maybe because some people just don't like PDFs? If a game or book is PDF-only, I just pass it by. I have some free (legal) PDFs but I only used them after I printed them out and put them in sheet protectors and a binder for ease of use.

Quote from: Dumarest;962113Maybe because some people just don't like PDFs? If a game or book is PDF-only, I just pass it by. I have some free (legal) PDFs but I only used them after I printed them out and put them in sheet protectors and a binder for ease of use.

Yeah. The things I have on PDF tend to be those that I was just curious about or wanted to read a thing or two in but ignore most of it, or that are out of print. If I want to use something in a PDF regularly, I'll tend to print it out.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;962064What I've found interesting about this thread is the low value placed on pdf's when the content is identical to the hard copy version. Even allowing for the cost of production of a hard copy book the disparity between the two formats is skewed very much in favour of paying much higher sums for hard copy compared to soft copy pdf's.

This sounds like it might be worth its own thread. So I'll make it.

PDF up to about $20 at the top end. Hardcover up to $100 (AUD) if I really, really want it.

I am not sure, but I know its more than $100 just because of some kickstarters I backed.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;962064What I've found interesting about this thread is the low value placed on pdf's when the content is identical to the hard copy version. Even allowing for the cost of production of a hard copy book the disparity between the two formats is skewed very much in favour of paying much higher sums for hard copy compared to soft copy pdf's.

This on rare occasions isnt the case, and seems to be getting more and more common for some reason.

I dont mind paying upwards of 20$ or more for a PDF. It when the producer tries to gouge the buyer by trying to make them pay print retail price that I say FUCK YOU! Especially if they are trying to make the buyer eat a now non-existent retailer cut. But I also apply that rule to hardcopy books on KS where they try to gouge retailer prices.

I've paid $60 for a few books--Ravenloft 3E Limited Edition, Mutants & Masterminds 10th Anniversary Collector's Edition, Champions Villains 3: Solo Villains--and more than that for bundles such as the HERO 6E 2-volume set or $93 on the Accursed: World of Morden Kickstarter to get pretty much the whole line in print.

$20 for PDF, $30 for softcover, and $60 for hardcover.

Quote from: RPGPundit;961796Just out of curiosity.  What's the most you have paid? What's the most you could imagine yourself paying for one? What would influence your decision?

I thought this was asked before recently? Maybe not.

$49 seems to be my limit on core rulebooks. If I can pre-order at $39, that helps. I'm talking about actual book buying. Not eBook stuff. For $49, I expect color/gloss pages. A higher price would mean more pages. Around 228 pages seems to be a good amount to include plenty of rules in. I don't care for any index or table of contents because I don't use them. Just put labels near corners of pages so I see what section/chapter of a book I'm in, if I need to know.

I like the Serenity RPG, and how its page layout is. I don't remember what I paid for it. Retail price in a book store probably.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;962233I thought this was asked before recently? Maybe not.

$49 seems to be my limit on core rulebooks. If I can pre-order at $39, that helps. I'm talking about actual book buying. Not eBook stuff. For $49, I expect color/gloss pages. A higher price would mean more pages. Around 228 pages seems to be a good amount to include plenty of rules in. I don't care for any index or table of contents because I don't use them. Just put labels near corners of pages so I see what section/chapter of a book I'm in, if I need to know.

I like the Serenity RPG, and how its page layout is. I don't remember what I paid for it. Retail price in a book store probably.

If we're going to bring up *content* I have some opinions... I definitely want both a table of contents and an index. I use both. I want color covers and perhaps chapter headings. But interior art can be B&W. Especially if it keeps down costs. Good B&W art can be more attractive to me than overly cluttered color work. I even prefer it for equipment illustrations. Like I said earlier I want a $10 per 100 pages price point.

Quote from: Tetsubo;962250If we're going to bring up *content* I have some opinions... I definitely want both a table of contents and an index. I use both.

I'll also add that I like a glossary in addition to the index.

Quote from: Tetsubo;962250Like I said earlier I want a $10 per 100 pages price point.

That is super cheap.  I can't think of many RPG books that hit that other than Pathfinder's core book - but they could only go that cheap because they've sold a ton of them and because they're willing to not make much on the core book to suck people in.  (plus it rolled out 8 years ago - and inflation)  Or are you including when you get it at a discount?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;962257I'll also add that I like a glossary in addition to the index.



That is super cheap.  I can't think of many RPG books that hit that other than Pathfinder's core book - but they could only go that cheap because they've sold a ton of them and because they're willing to not make much on the core book to suck people in.  (plus it rolled out 8 years ago - and inflation)  Or are you including when you get it at a discount?

I do buy books at discounts when I can. But I also have purchased new books at close to that price point. One way of achieving that is to not use full color cover-to-cover. I will go on the high end, say $40 for a 300 page book if it really attracts me. But I have seen some *insane* price points. A saw one recently that was $50 for a 114 page book.

Quote from: Tetsubo;962259A I saw one recently that was $50 for a 114 page book.

Curious - was it POD?  Because that can really jack up the price.  POD high-end color can be stupidly expensive.

Even $40 for 300 pages MSRP is still really cheap if it has decent color art.  Remember - if sold at a FLGS, the publisher is selling that $40 book for $16.  (And TTRPGs rarely sell enough to fully take advantage of economies of scale.)

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;962262Curious - was it POD?  Because that can really jack up the price.  POD high-end color can be stupidly expensive.

Even $40 for 300 pages MSRP is still really cheap if it has decent color art.  Remember - if sold at a FLGS, the publisher is selling that $40 book for $16.  (And TTRPGs rarely sell enough to fully take advantage of economies of scale.)

It was listed on Amazon. I don't know if it was POD or not. I saw the price, laughed and moved on.

The last full-priced RPG book I bought in a brick-n-mortar store was $20 and runs 270 pages. It is softcover and has B&W interior art. I recently picked up a used copy of the PF Bestairy 5 for $32. Bargain hunting is a hobby.

If you think the page to price ratio can get crazy with rpg's, be sure to stay away from wargames:)

Quote from: RunningLaser;962278If you think the page to price ratio can get crazy with rpg's, be sure to stay away from wargames:)

Or academia... I own a 'coffee table' style reference book of Islamic arms and armour in the Middle Ages. I bought it for $3 at  a thrift shop. It retails for $500.

Most I've paid?  250CDN.  That was for the collector's edition of FFG's Deathwatch RPG.  But it really depends on how much I REALLY want the book.  I have, admittedly, poor impulse control.

Well irl I have as of yet never payed more then 40$ usd for a game book but I can realistically see my top end being 150$ usd (I have spent more on other books btw) or so but at that point it had beater be the game equivalent of my spice and wolf collectors edition.
There are of coarse exceptions.
the following pictuers are for the sake of example

(http://68.media.tumblr.com/bdaa125ba9469de9674f1b442ca6139a/tumblr_ocqq6lequ61srjvtqo2_1280.jpg)
(http://www.fandompost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Spice-Wolf-Hardcover-2.jpg)
more pics that are fing huge

Spoiler

(http://i.imgur.com/Um3WhKI.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/oqk0vGy.jpg%5B)
(http://i.imgur.com/e36ZJ8y.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/B4WOWz0.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/FDC3KoD.jpg)

Quote from: kosmos1214;962688A bunch of stuff...

Spice and Wolf is awesome. If you wanted to run a game in the late medieval, early renaissance or equivalent thereof based on trade and commerce, that series of... It's originally a light novel, I think? That definitely has some interesting insights into economics.

EDIT: Looking under the spoiler. Okay, where did you get that?

Quote from: Krimson;962711Spice and Wolf is awesome. If you wanted to run a game in the late medieval, early renaissance or equivalent thereof based on trade and commerce, that series of... It's originally a light novel, I think? That definitely has some interesting insights into economics.

EDIT: Looking under the spoiler. Okay, where did you get that?

They printed its a while back yen press i mean there are 2 printings the original numbered edition and the 2nd unnumbered printing I have the latter I got it for cristmas this last year (2016) as I love the series and to top it off it was slightly cheaper then buying a full set of the light novels even after having to go threw a scalper on eBay.
And yes I try to take influence from it when it come to economics in my worlds it helps put it in every day terms so its easier to wrap mind around and get me in the right mind space.

PS: those are stock pictures of of the web not pictures of my personal copy.
PPS: my copy cost me 250 ish usd from what I remember and last I looked the number printing was going near 400 usd.
PPPS: the book is called spice and wolf anniversary collector's edition.

@kosmos thanks for the info.

I was at Sentry Box today and I picked up the Adventures in Middle Earth Loremaster's Guide which was $60 Cdn so I guess that's within my limit though I was planning to buy it when it came out.

50-60$ sometimes more depending on the rpg. Another issue is the poor value of the Canadian dollar. At one of the LGS in my area The Edge of the Empire core is going for 78$ before tax.

Quote from: sureshot;96317750-60$ sometimes more depending on the rpg. Another issue is the poor value of the Canadian dollar. At one of the LGS in my area The Edge of the Empire core is going for 78$ before tax.

A good amount of OSR stuff is available on Lulu, which has a facility in Canada I believe.

I rather not pay $50 for a hardcover, and even then, I would have thoroughly researched the game. For whatever reason, I am more comfortable tossing $100 at a boardgame than $50 at a RPG. Maybe its years of homebrewing RPGs and downloading great cheap (or free) RPGs that leaves me less impressed / interested / needing to pay top dollar for other people's work.

I don't really have a theoretical maximum, but I also couldn't really see myself spending more than $50 on an RPG book.  And mind you, I have a large collection of expensive rare books, just on more serious subject (if you consider Eastern religions, philosophy, and the occult to be 'serious').

£60 is about the max I'd pay if it was a had-to-have RPG book and a pdf wouldn't cut it. I did spend £100 on a 2 volume set of books about spy movies that lists and reviews every spy movie from 1945 up to 1989 by the author of the Kiss, Kiss, Kill, Kill website (https://www.kisskisskillkillarchive.com/). I also spent US$200 on a bound copy of the Royal Artillery Journal from 1912 that had some very interesting articles about pre-WW1 artillery tactics, but that's more an antiquarian level book.

Now this leads to the (purely speculative) question - how much does raising the price of an RPG hurt sales?  How much more likely are you to buy a $40 book than the same book at $50?  What about at $45?  etc.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;963492Now this leads to the (purely speculative) question - how much does raising the price of an RPG hurt sales?  How much more likely are you to buy a $40 book than the same book at $50?  What about at $45?  etc.

It's doubtful I'd invest that much in a game nowadays, but for me what really discourages interest and investment is not the prices so much as the inability to browse through a game to see what I think of it. The couple of game stores near me are 95% D&D, Pathfinder, Magic cards, and Games Workshop wargames, so I seldom get to actually look at anything and hold it in my hands and assess it the way I would with a novel or history book at the bookstore or library. The free preview features online that I have seen are invariably lacking so I just bypass almost all new products in the RPG industry as I lack the money to buy something just so I can see if I might like it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;962286Most I've paid?  250CDN.  That was for the collector's edition of FFG's Deathwatch RPG.  But it really depends on how much I REALLY want the book.  I have, admittedly, poor impulse control.

Nonsense, that was a thoroughly logical sound investment...with chains. :D