How do we define that? Is anyone who "publishes" an RPG book on Lulu, even if it doesn't sell 10 copies, a "Professional RPG writer"?
Is it, on the other hand, only someone who's sole means of income is RPGs? That would probably exclude just about every freelancer.
RPGPundit
Technically, only someone legally liable for their work is a professional. A doctor, lawyer, public accountant, etc.
So, strictly speaking there ARE no professionals in this hobby. There are those that are able to earn a living producing content and those that are not.
A paycheck.
Or a royalty check.
What if you publish an rpg product that is so horrible people suffer actual harm from reading it?
Quote from: Exploderwizard;675672Technically, only someone legally liable for their work is a professional. A doctor, lawyer, public accountant, etc.
What about professional athletes?
.........
In this hobby? I don't know if there are any, only because when you think of a professional, they've established a certain skill set that puts them well above just anyone off the street. How do you do that with an rpg? With just average grammar and math skills, with the right amout of luck/marketing/word of mouth/money, anyone could have a successful RPG.
I guess if you were to back me into a corner, I'd say it's someone who does this full time.
I'd go with the general view of if you got paid for your services, that makes it a profession for you. Doesn't mean high quality of course.
My completely arbitrary line for determining classification as a professional RPG writer is a simple two-part test.
Have they demonstrated the ability to consistently fulfill their role in a professional and businesslike fashion, delivering good material on deadlines and keeping the terms of an agreement? If no, they are not a professional RPG writer. They are at most an interesting auteur best observed from a safe financial distance.
Do they earn or are trying to earn enough at their trade to maintain a modest living, whether or not it's their actual day job? If no, they may be a talented amateur or reliable session player or many other good things, but they are not trying to make a profession out of the work.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;675679What about professional athletes?
Their work is bound by legal contract. Likewise a licensed and bonded plumber or builder is a professional.
There are differences between a
vocation and a
profession. I work as a private accountant, which is a vocation. If I went public and worked as a CPA the game would change and it would become a profession.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;675693Their work is bound by legal contract. .
Not really. They could sign their contract, and then just hang out. There almost never is requirements for performance in those contracts.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;675696Not really. They could sign their contract, and then just hang out. There almost never is requirements for performance in those contracts.
I doubt it. There usually isn't a requirement for
specific performance meaning no hard coded stat expectations, but I'll bet that just refusing to perform for shits & giggles would void the contract.
Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;675677A paycheck.
Or a royalty check.
Yes, that is the general definition. Freelancers can do a lot of different things and it is hard to decide how a career is constructed.
Professionalism, in terms of meeting deadlines and high quality products, is a different issue but probably more important to how a person is perceived.
I'd say one can call it a profession, after they've earned money.
But there's a far cry from someone that works in the profession, and a professional. A professional takes ownership of their work, and more importantly, their work ethic.
Quote from: Bill;675678What if you publish an rpg product that is so horrible people suffer actual harm from reading it?
This needs a seperate thread.
Quote from: Bill;675678What if you publish an rpg product that is so horrible people suffer actual harm from reading it?
Can I be the first to suggest "Brain Damage"? :D
Quote from: Bill;675678What if you publish an rpg product that is so horrible people suffer actual harm from reading it?
Considering existance of FATAL, Synnibarr, RaHoWa and that Post Apocalyptic game with absolutely bizarre mutations generation (where many of them meant your character'd die suddenly during creation), I'm sure that's simply impossible.
I mean, we have about 4000 - 3300 years of literary history (taking Epic of Gilgamesh as starting point), and we haven't a single example of someone suffering harm from reading it. Now, causing harm due to reading something is an entirely different sack of potatoes.
Technically, ExploderWizard has the right of it. Colloquially, we call people who earn a living at something a "Professional" at that thing. Calling someone who earns money at it, no matter how small, seems to be seriously diluting the meaning of the word.
So, for example, I am a professional writer - I make a nice living at it - and an amateur game designer.
-clash
In terms of creative work, "professional" means either "gets paid regularly" or, failing that, "gets paid enormously" (your J.D. Salingers & such).
Quote from: RPGPundit;675663Is it, on the other hand, only someone who's sole means of income is RPGs? That would probably exclude just about every freelancer.
RPGPundit
And all but a handful of publishers.
I think the stricter definition of "professional" is what's behind the spread of the term "semi-pro", which I think I first saw in reference to photographers and videographers. These would be people who have either done spot contract work or self-publishing and received more than just a couple bucks (therefore, not an amateur,) but which don't make enough to really consider their work a full-time or part-time job. You could probably consider most of the small RPG publishers "semi-pro".
Quote from: Rincewind1;675721Considering existance of FATAL, Synnibarr, RaHoWa and that Post Apocalyptic game with absolutely bizarre mutations generation (where many of them meant your character'd die suddenly during creation), I'm sure that's simply impossible.
That'd be deadEarth, I think.
Quote100 Death.You are dead. Over-exposure to radiation kills you.
cost:none. range:self. effect:binary.
Quote from: RPGPundit;675663What makes someone a "Professional" in this hobby?
Cheap living expenses and a spouse with a decent-paying job...
Exploderwizard got it in one. Even in the advent of photography the distinction had to rapidly be made. There's the amateur who is exploring the technology and art of a new medium, who may do pieces here and there for occasional pay. And then there's the guy who does it for a living (livelihood) by means of legal contracts, and thus liable for breaches during outcome -- thus professional bodies entering the picture.
(And photography was a lot more dangerous back then, too. But then professional bodies, qualifications, and codes of conduct were easily whipped up back then in the 19th Century, as everyone was excited to categorize every new thing and fart out a manifesto atop it. So perhaps it's all just a failing of our modern laziness.)
Quote from: RPGPundit;675663How do we define that? Is anyone who "publishes" an RPG book on Lulu, even if it doesn't sell 10 copies, a "Professional RPG writer"?
Is it, on the other hand, only someone who's sole means of income is RPGs? That would probably exclude just about every freelancer.
RPGPundit
A lot depends on their handling of several things: promotion, work ethic, dealing with others in the hobby/business, paying artists on time and treating them like they do real work too. Can I stress the latter part?
Someone who can write full-time, without having another job to support them.
Quote from: Rincewind1;675721Considering existance of FATAL, Synnibarr, RaHoWa and that Post Apocalyptic game with absolutely bizarre mutations generation (where many of them meant your character'd die suddenly during creation), I'm sure that's simply impossible.
I mean, we have about 4000 - 3300 years of literary history (taking Epic of Gilgamesh as starting point), and we haven't a single example of someone suffering harm from reading it. Now, causing harm due to reading something is an entirely different sack of potatoes.
My idea for the worst rpg ever was this:
There is only one rule. You flip a coin to determine everything.
The rules would be written to sound serious about how that is the perfect system.
I seriously thought about doing this.
Quote from: RPGPundit;675663How do we define that? Is anyone who "publishes" an RPG book on Lulu, even if it doesn't sell 10 copies, a "Professional RPG writer"?
It based on their charisma and if they are being paid royalties or not.
Quote from: Bill;675678What if you publish an rpg product that is so horrible people suffer actual harm from reading it?
I don't think HYBRID was written by a pro if that's what you mean ;)
Quote from: Bill;675980My idea for the worst rpg ever was this:
There is only one rule. You flip a coin to determine everything.
The rules would be written to sound serious about how that is the perfect system.
I seriously thought about doing this.
D02 know no limit!
Professional vs X ?
If you do something professional rather than as an amateur, you are doing it for payment, and follow some measure of standard other than just pleasing yourself or your friends (as compared to customers who pay not because they like you, but they like your work as product).
I recall reading an essay about how HP Lovecraft should be considered one of the most successful amateurs in horror writing, not because of not seeking payment, but because he was often not open to revising or rewriting a story. On the other hand, he was a professional writer because he made money off of other types of writing he cared less about, travel writing, ghostwriting for others, etc.
Kurt Vonnegutt wrote for a living. When he wasnt making money from novels at first, he write for Better Homes & Gardens. You have to have a craft-for-client mentality.
If a contract and exchange of money are involved then you might be a professional, at least by hobby publishing standards. If you are making a living at it then you're a freakin' superstar.
If your work under contract leads to peer review (i.e. a real editor) then give yourself an extra star.
I made enough money off of my last major writing contract in the hobby to move to a new state and live comfortably for a few months while looking for a real job....so at least for that period of time I might have labelled myself a professional.
In cocktail party and resume writing parlance, anyone with 10 sales on Lulu can easily pass themselves off as a "professional" because that term was bastardized in meaningless so very long ago.
But for me to consider someone "a professional author" of any genre, I expect writing to be their major source of income.
But WTF, lots of the best stuff in our hobby comes from amateurs.
The problem is "major source of income" doesn't really work all that well either; because even those who may at a certain moment be writing RPGs as their main livelihood tend to switch back and forth on that scale.
Not to mention that a lot of the alleged "professionals" by that category are really just amateurs who got lucky in terms of getting a position; and that often there's no discernible difference in the level of quality between them and the gifted among the amateurs, in fact some of the "professional RPG writers" for the big companies are demonstrably worse at both designing game systems or writing in general than some of the guys who are doing it for shits and giggles. So there's no real "professional standard" going on that all the pros are held to.
RPGPundit
A professional isn't a hobbyist. A hobbyist pursues a pastime out of pleasure, with no thought to placing or creating an external value on the activity. Play for the sake of play. A professional pursues a primary motive besides enjoyment. The attempt to create a social value from the activity, whether financial or simply the validation of culture by declaring their activity "art".
Quote from: RPGPundit;676640Not to mention that a lot of the alleged "professionals" by that category are really just amateurs who got lucky in terms of getting a position; and that often there's no discernible difference in the level of quality between them and the gifted among the amateurs, in fact some of the "professional RPG writers" for the big companies are demonstrably worse at both designing game systems or writing in general than some of the guys who are doing it for shits and giggles. So there's no real "professional standard" going on that all the pros are held to.
This is true of many other creative arenas, though – you're gonna go down a rabbit hole trying to define a professional standard of quality.
I would go with "consistent source of income" as the general yardstick like I said earlier. If the hobby is small enough that all these consistent sources of income amount to part-time work, well, that's a professional as far as the hobby is concerned.
QuoteA professional isn't a hobbyist. A hobbyist pursues a pastime out of pleasure, with no thought to placing or creating an external value on the activity. Play for the sake of play. A professional pursues a primary motive besides enjoyment.
Professionals make money. That is all.
Beyond that, you have the part where professionals conduct themselves reliably, hit deadlines, etc. and work like someone who needs the money whereas a pure hobbyist will work when inspiration strikes, but you can't chop it all down to primary motives.
Motive is all money is ultimately. That and a fascinatingly stupid game of make-believe every adult on the planet has tacitly agreed to play. As its entirely possible for an amateur to make money on one of their heartbreakers, or hobby projects, there's no inherent connection between money and the professional.
As to the behaviour "professionalism", thats a separate concept with no bearing on the discussion. A person can be a professional and not act professionally.