Some sub-systems for martial characters in 3.x, like Tome of Battle, Path of War, Spheres of Might, etc give them wuxia and other superhuman capabilities. I do not know any comparable systems for other retroclones, pardon my ignorance. Considering that the fantasy world has magic, it does not break my suspension of disbelief for martial characters to develop such capabilities as a matter of course without explicitly being spell casters. Given the prevalence of such capabilities in real world mythology, legend, fairy tales, etc, I would be surprised if they did not. For whatever reason, a number of other people who I do not know hold the opposite view.

What is your opinion on martials having their own kind of martial magic, at least in high-magic settings where casters get really powerful?

Depends on the setting.

Depends on the setting. For wuxia, this can make sense. It works well in some fantasy settings too. I think it can be a more awkward fit for standard D&D (though even there if the world has something specific in it that warrants it, it can make sense). One of my issues with how this sort of thing got handled in 3E was a lot of players saw it as an open license for all kinds of fighting magic. I realize it was meant to be a customizable system, but I played in a lot of campaigns where the GM had zero control of setting consistency because of this stuff. If there is fighting magic, I would like it to have a particular flavor and some internal consistency (not just be anything goes).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1001231I do not know any comparable systems for other retroclones, pardon my ignorance.

Dragon Fist by Chris Pramas.

I'm all for it as long as it fits the setting. Every discipline(class) being magical and granting various neat tricks is one of the reasons I love Earthdawn so much.

Depends mainly on system IMO. It's almost a must-have in 3.5 because of the gross disparities among classes. It's an integral part of the 4e rule set. OD&D, AD&D, and 5e don't need it.

I love Kung-Fu movies and similar pop-culture stuff so things like that can be fun... as long as it doesn't get too complicated and turn being a flying swordsman into a bookkeeping exercise that takes the simple fun out of being a fighter or monk (Exalted, I'm looking at you).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1001231Given the prevalence of such capabilities in real world mythology, legend, fairy tales, etc,

What real world mythologies, legends, and myths have Kamehameha blasts?

You're confusing a specific set of very modern mythologies with, well, everything else. While many myths do have heroes who aren't spellcasters but who do have superhuman capabilities, that doesn't mean Roland should be dancing between the trees on wires or shooting blasts of fire. You can do that, of course, but it will bear little resemblance to the source material. A closer variation would give Roland a sword that allows him to cleave through boulders, and make him superhumanly tough and capable of facing down great numbers of foes. Which is easily covered by magic items and hit points, without the need for a new spell system that pretends it's not a spell system.

I will point out that it isn't just wuxia--This, in my mind, is a must-have for a Baron Munchausen adventure as well.

Overall, just tell me what to expect out of your game universe and I'm fine with it. Sometimes I want a hard, gritty resource-management game where my characters are tracking weight down to the coin and making hard decisions about wearing armor on a beachfront battle, knowing getting knocked into deep water might be more deadly than a sword wound. Other times I want something like the LotR movies where they clearly aren't carrying enough gear, their backpacks magically disappear during battle, and people aren't wearing helmets because they paid a lot for those actors' faces. Other times I want people able to leap to the heavens, throw horses across ravines, and run up waterfalls. Just agree beforehand and have at it.

What I want from a (newly made) system is what levels you are expected to play at, and make it reasonable to want to play the reasonably available character options at those levels. In oD&D-AD&D (to various degrees), spellcasters still advanced after a certain point, while fighters and thieves became leaders of men. Since a lot of people didn't want to play that style, they tried with 3e to balance all the classes, and did so very badly. So ToB was a reasonable attempt to fix the problem. I was just never satisfied with the implementation.

Most notably, I consider the martial/spellcaster distinction to be pretty arbitrary and meaningless. If I'd wanted to be a spellcaster, I would have just been a spellcaster, so saying "play a Warblade instead of a fighter" doesn't fix anything for me. I might as well have played a 3e CoDzilla mechanically and just re-fluffed the description. I much prefer the 5e (or AD&D) method of having the fighter be mechanically powerful, and have the spellcasters have limitations (and we can argue over who did it best). That will never satisfy those who point out that there will still be situations that a fighter can never solve that a wizard can, and they and I can just disagree on whether that is important.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1001246It's almost a must-have in 3.5 because of the gross disparities among classes. It's an integral part of the 4e rule set. OD&D, AD&D, and 5e don't need it.

Pretty much agreed, although I also think that E6 or the equivalent is a good solution for 3e. We eventually went with a "you can only have less than 50% of your levels going towards any specific spellcasting class" model, and that also worked okay.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1001234Depends on the setting. For wuxia, this can make sense. It works well in some fantasy settings too. I think it can be a more awkward fit for standard D&D (though even there if the world has something specific in it that warrants it, it can make sense). One of my issues with how this sort of thing got handled in 3E was a lot of players saw it as an open license for all kinds of fighting magic. I realize it was meant to be a customizable system, but I played in a lot of campaigns where the GM had zero control of setting consistency because of this stuff. If there is fighting magic, I would like it to have a particular flavor and some internal consistency (not just be anything goes).

I think the same logic should be applied to casters too. That is why I like the sphere systems. Unfortunately I hate Pathfinder.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1001245I'm all for it as long as it fits the setting. Every discipline(class) being magical and granting various neat tricks is one of the reasons I love Earthdawn so much.

Whether it fits the setting or not depends on what magic is supposed to be. Modern fantasy settings operate on the conceit that nature operates according to real physics and then magic is tacked on to let you cheat physics, regardless of how illogical this is when you stop to think about it. My setting, if I ever get around to writing it, operates on magical physics similarly to Glorantha or Exalted. Anyone who trains hard enough will develop magical powers, which in this case are a measure of degree rather than binary.

Quote from: Pat;1001277What real world mythologies, legends, and myths have Kamehameha blasts?

You're confusing a specific set of very modern mythologies with, well, everything else. While many myths do have heroes who aren't spellcasters but who do have superhuman capabilities, that doesn't mean Roland should be dancing between the trees on wires or shooting blasts of fire. You can do that, of course, but it will bear little resemblance to the source material. A closer variation would give Roland a sword that allows him to cleave through boulders, and make him superhumanly tough and capable of facing down great numbers of foes. Which is easily covered by magic items and hit points, without the need for a new spell system that pretends it's not a spell system.

Confused? Those stories have people shooting arrows hundreds of miles, swallowing rivers, cleaving mountains in half, fighting deadly monsters on their own, and talking to animals and inanimate objects without having to cast a spell every few minutes. Why not give martial classes access to flavorful spells?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1001292Confused? Those stories have people shooting arrows hundreds of miles, swallowing rivers, cleaving mountains in half, fighting deadly monsters on their own, and talking to animals and inanimate objects without having to cast a spell every few minutes. Why not give martial classes access to flavorful spells?

Again, what stories? Because arguing that all myths are alike is very confused.

Quote from: Pat;1001277What real world mythologies, legends, and myths have Kamehameha blasts?

Something had to take out the walls of Jericho.

Quote from: Pat;1001295Again, what stories? Because arguing that all myths are alike is very confused.

While I would also like to hear that list, he's doing so no more than you are. "Those stories have people shooting arrows hundreds of miles, swallowing rivers, cleaving mountains in half, fighting deadly monsters on their own, and talking to animals and inanimate objects" is no different from "Kamehameha blasts" and "dancing between the trees on wires or shooting blasts of fire." What are the myths that you are thinking of, and whose are they, that they are different from the ones he is?

Also, where did he argue that "all myths are alike?"

Quote from: Pat;1001295Again, what stories? Because arguing that all myths are alike is very confused.

It depends on what you are looking for, since myths and fairy tales vary immensely. (Fantasy gaming is an eclectic mix of world mythology to begin with.) Off the top of my head:

• Mythic archers: Houyi
• Mythic eaters: The Five Chinese Brothers (adapted from the Ten Brothers)
• Mythic choppers: Arthurian cycle, Song of Roland, Epic of Gilgamesh, the Wizard of Oz
• Mythic monster slayers: Hercules, Perseus, other Greek heroes
• Mythic talking: The Story of a Mother by Hans Christian Andersen, Aesop's Fables, the Wizard of Oz

The surreal situations commonly depicted in myths and fairy tales are impossible to pull off in D&D due to the setting assumptions baked into the rules.

Earthdawn is a high-mana environment. All the Adept cults (secret societies that teach a "class") have Talents that make use of the ambient mana level.

The Warriors don't just call it Waterfall Slam for nothing, the way they can sweep your feet out from under you. Beastmasters shift their hands into claws to melee enemies, Scouts basically have spidey-senses, Sky Raider's blood hisses and boils and blue flame cauterizes the cuts closed, some Air Sailors float an inch above the deck or battlefied (wuxia-style),  etc. Plus shadowrun-style dragon & icon politics, naval tactics in the sky, and Atlanean slavers ("Therans") with flying castles.