Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1004553In low magic settings like Hyperborea, where Conan can defeat wizards with fair difficulty, I can accept martial arts closer to reality because the magic is not obviously superior. Wizards cannot take over the world with ease.

Unfortunately, later editions of D&D went high magic to the point of absurdity. WotC turned wizards into Naruto while keeping fighters weaker than James Bond. In a setting like that where only wizards can pull off typical action movie stunts because of arbitrary realism defined by the developer, I feel cheated. Why would anyone waste time on martial arts if magic can do all that and more? Why are wizards not ruling the world?

It wasn't that much 'later' into the editions either, as most of the high magic spells came as early as the Greyhawk expansion.

Some editions (BECMI with the weapon mastery, arguably both AD&Ds), the fighters are James Bond level (maybe even Jackie Chan character level). You are contributing to the overall success of the party roughly as much as the spellcasters for most of the game. I get the argument that spellcasters (particularly MUs/mages/wizards) have spells available which solves any given problem, while martials only can solve things that have hit points (and non-magical traps, lock doors, etc., if you include thieves/rogues), but that is a significant portion of what you run into.

That said, it is true that at upper levels, the MUs/clerics started being able to reshape the world, travel to different planes, have power over life and death, and so forth, and the martials were supposed to be compensated by being able to leverage armies (or thieves' guilds)... but large portions of the gaming audience didn't want to do that/consider that a perk. This was never really resolved (actually it is resolved differently by each gaming group, but for the written rules it isn't) during the TSR era, which is unfortunate.

QuoteIf it's an argument about terminology, what about making martial arts (western martial arts) into a type of magic alongside arcane, divine, whatever? In a world suffused with magic, why not have people becoming superheroes from training really, really hard?

It is a question of whether that is the right solution. The problem is clear (as discussed above), but what is the right solution?--play mostly at the levels where spellcasters aren't earth-shattering, rejigger spellcasting so that it isn't so earth-shattering, or upgrade martial abilities to match? No one answer is correct, which is why I believe they didn't really address it in TSR-era (and each edition of WotC has had a different solution which appeases at most half their potential audience, excepting 5e which half-addresses the issue and pleases maybe 75% of the audience "enough").

But, simply put, not everyone considers turning James Bond/Jackie Chan into Neo/a jedi to be the correct solution to the Merlins and Gandolfs running around making them inconsequential. This is a problem that is unsolvable because the audience is split (many different ways) on what the correct power-level for the high-level game actually is.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1004553In low magic settings like Hyperborea, where Conan can defeat wizards with fair difficulty, I can accept martial arts closer to reality because the magic is not obviously superior. Wizards cannot take over the world with ease.

Unfortunately, later editions of D&D went high magic to the point of absurdity. WotC turned wizards into Naruto while keeping fighters weaker than James Bond. In a setting like that where only wizards can pull off typical action movie stunts because of arbitrary realism defined by the developer, I feel cheated. Why would anyone waste time on martial arts if magic can do all that and more? Why are wizards not ruling the world?

I feel less cheated using something like Dungeon Crawl Risus, where (paraphrasing an example from the Risus Companion, IIRC) I can just assume fighters pull off action movie stunts automatically and roll dice only to determine whether they land safely in the village square or in a latrine and have to waste time washing.

If it's an argument about terminology, what about making martial arts (western martial arts) into a type of magic alongside arcane, divine, whatever? In a world suffused with magic, why not have people becoming superheroes from training really, really hard?

I can answer that last question;).
Aesthetics.
Yes, it's that simple:). Sometime I want people who train themselves to the point of becoming superheroes. Then I do, and problem solved. Sometimes I don't. When I don't, I either accept that playing an warrior will be "hard mode", or make sure to limit magic.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1004576This is a problem that is unsolvable because the audience is split (many different ways) on what the correct power-level for the high-level game actually is.

Yes, and sometimes even the same people might want to try another approach:D!

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1004576It wasn't that much 'later' into the editions either, as most of the high magic spells came as early as the Greyhawk expansion.

Some editions (BECMI with the weapon mastery, arguably both AD&Ds), the fighters are James Bond level (maybe even Jackie Chan character level). You are contributing to the overall success of the party roughly as much as the spellcasters for most of the game. I get the argument that spellcasters (particularly MUs/mages/wizards) have spells available which solves any given problem, while martials only can solve things that have hit points (and non-magical traps, lock doors, etc., if you include thieves/rogues), but that is a significant portion of what you run into.

That said, it is true that at upper levels, the MUs/clerics started being able to reshape the world, travel to different planes, have power over life and death, and so forth, and the martials were supposed to be compensated by being able to leverage armies (or thieves' guilds)... but large portions of the gaming audience didn't want to do that/consider that a perk. This was never really resolved (actually it is resolved differently by each gaming group, but for the written rules it isn't) during the TSR era, which is unfortunate.

It is a question of whether that is the right solution. The problem is clear (as discussed above), but what is the right solution?--play mostly at the levels where spellcasters aren't earth-shattering, rejigger spellcasting so that it isn't so earth-shattering, or upgrade martial abilities to match? No one answer is correct, which is why I believe they didn't really address it in TSR-era (and each edition of WotC has had a different solution which appeases at most half their potential audience, excepting 5e which half-addresses the issue and pleases maybe 75% of the audience "enough").

But, simply put, not everyone considers turning James Bond/Jackie Chan into Neo/a jedi to be the correct solution to the Merlins and Gandolfs running around making them inconsequential. This is a problem that is unsolvable because the audience is split (many different ways) on what the correct power-level for the high-level game actually is.

The TSR solution was that magic items would benefit Fighters more than M-Us; so with decent items a Fighter could keep pace with an MU. And items were almost always found, not made by the PC M-Us a la 3e.

And the highest level PC in Blackmoor was 9th level, and the highest level PC in Greyhawk was 14th, and they were both fighters.

18th level, and its ability to use 9th level spells, was thought to be so unreachably high that it would be the niche of superpowerful NPCs.

See the introduction to "Gods, Demigods, and Heroes" for more on this idea, and my chapter in GDGH in my upcoming book for how it failed spectacularly.

There are ways to resolve the fighter/wizard disparity that don't involve turning the fighter into a superhero, however. I think that Lion & Dragon, my upcoming Medieval-Authentic RPG, has a lot of changes to the fighter class that will keep it more than competitive. Of course, in that game wizards are also different, so that they'll have way less of a variety of magical powers (but the ones they have, used intelligently, will be very powerful compared to what low-level D&D wizards have access to).  To me, that's the best of both worlds.

So the wizards don't have the early-level (if the game even has levels) weaknesses, nor the upper level earth-shattering abilities?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1004890So the wizards don't have the early-level (if the game even has levels) weaknesses, nor the upper level earth-shattering abilities?

This makes for much smoother progression and less headache for the GM, IME;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1004861There are ways to resolve the fighter/wizard disparity that don't involve turning the fighter into a superhero, however. I think that Lion & Dragon, my upcoming Medieval-Authentic RPG, has a lot of changes to the fighter class that will keep it more than competitive. Of course, in that game wizards are also different, so that they'll have way less of a variety of magical powers (but the ones they have, used intelligently, will be very powerful compared to what low-level D&D wizards have access to).  To me, that's the best of both worlds.

When is the book due?

As Godbound is OSR Exalted, I believe it would be great for wuxia fantasy.

Exemplars & Eidolons, the free RPG by Kevin Crawford, assume extreme competence from the heroes, so that would be a good wuxia system too.

Quote from: Dumarest;1005063When is the book due?

Hopefully by the end of this month.