TheRPGSite

I posted this is another thread last night, but the thread got consumed in the Darwinism shit storm.  So I'm posting it as its own thread.

I will admit upfront that I am neither a businessman nor a game designer nor an "industry professional," whatever that is.  But this is what I would do if I was suddenly put in charge of 5e:

- the core book (and it would be one book instead of the usual 3-book split) would be available as a free pdf download from the D&D website.  The came would be simplified; the complexities introduced in 3e and 4e would be stripped away.  The core book would also available in hardcover for people who like books as physical objects at the table.

If retro-clones can operate on this model, so can flagship D&D.  And I think it might need to, so it can prove that it is accessible as a game.  Also, let's not pretend that someone out there won't just pirate the core book anyway.

If they have the ability to make the next version of D&D scale-able in terms of complexity (which I am skeptical of) I could see them putting out things like:

- a boxed set for turning the basic combat engine into a tactical skirmish-level wargame (as it is in 4e) complete with battlemaps and counters (it's harder to pirate components than it is books, after all)

- a compendium of updated old-school classic modules (again perhaps in a box with goodies that would be difficult to scan & upload)

- products geared toward showing how the game can encompass a wide variety of flavors (high fantasy, sword & sorcery, weird fantasy, wuxia, etc.), each with rules variations and add-ons for genre emulation

- bring back some of the classic settings (closer to their original presentations) to show how diverse the game can be (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, hell even Eberron if you like--each should feel different); again, this is an opportunity to package these products with cool tangible components

That's what I would do.  What would you do?  (Or, what would you add to my pie-in-the-sky model outlined above?)

Add settings from Magic the Gathering.

Add rules how to combine MtG cards with DnD.

Quote from: Rincewind1;500859Add settings from Magic the Gathering.

Add rules how to combine MtG cards with DnD.

This is the last thing I would want to see with 5E.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;500863This is the last thing I would want to see with 5E.

Why? I'd love nothing more then rules how to convert creatures from MtG cards, and guidelines how to use random set of cards to set up a whole scenario.

Maybe I am the only guy who thinks MtG and DnD can go hand in hand :(.

Quote from: misterguignol;500857If retro-clones can operate on this model, so can flagship D&D.

Retro-clones don't need to make money as a business.  As for ZOMG Piracy!, I don't think we've hit the Napster Event Horizon for e-books yet.

Quotebring back some of the classic settings (closer to their original presentations) to show how diverse the game can be (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, hell even Eberron if you like--each should feel different)

The danger here is that they'd repeat the 2nd ed mistake of competing with themselves by producing too many different products in an already saturated market.

I think you're right about not being able to pirate board games as easily, but you have to sell a lot of units to keep the per-unit cost down on those.

Quote from: Rincewind1;500866Why? I'd love nothing more then rules how to convert creatures from MtG cards, and guidelines how to use random set of cards to set up a whole scenario.

Maybe I am the only guy who thinks MtG and DnD can go hand in hand :(.

I don't think you are the only one, but I have never found MtG fun. So adding it to D&D would only be a negative for me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;500871I don't think you are the only one, but I have never found MtG fun. So adding it to D&D would only be a negative for me.

I did not mean this as a core mechanic, just a small rulebook in the boxed set/a few pages in GM's manual. A cherry on a cake, not even icing.

Quote from: daniel_ream;500870Retro-clones don't need to make money as a business.  As for ZOMG Piracy!, I don't think we've hit the Napster Event Horizon for e-books yet.

The danger here is that they'd repeat the 2nd ed mistake of competing with themselves by producing too many different products in an already saturated market.

I think you're right about not being able to pirate board games as easily, but you have to sell a lot of units to keep the per-unit cost down on those.

Of course, this is why I specified that I'm not a businessman ;)

Those hard - to - pirate goodies do remind me of a certain FFG project...>.>.

Might be just  the fact that it is Warhammer and not DnD, but I do not think W3e is faring that grand.

Quote from: Rincewind1;500875Those hard - to - pirate goodies do remind me of a certain FFG project...>.>.

Might be just  the fact that it is Warhammer and not DnD, but I do not think W3e is faring that grand.

Well, the Warhammer 3e pricepoint is much higher than what I would have in mind.

Also, I think it isn't faring well because the core set gives you far less to play with than previous editions of the game.  People recognize diminishing returns.

Quote from: misterguignol;500857I posted this is another thread last night, but the thread got consumed in the Darwinism shit storm.  So I'm posting it as its own thread.

I will admit upfront that I am neither a businessman nor a game designer nor an "industry professional," whatever that is.  But this is what I would do if I was suddenly put in charge of 5e:

- the core book (and it would be one book instead of the usual 3-book split) would be available as a free pdf download from the D&D website.  The came would be simplified; the complexities introduced in 3e and 4e would be stripped away.  The core book would also available in hardcover for people who like books as physical objects at the table.

So you're proposing a sort of spiritual child of Castles & Crusades for the base engine, if I understand this well?

Quote from: misterguignol;500857I could see them putting out things like:

- a boxed set for turning the basic combat engine into a tactical skirmish-level wargame (as it is in 4e) complete with battlemaps and counters (it's harder to pirate components than it is books, after all)

- a compendium of updated old-school classic modules (again perhaps in a box with goodies that would be difficult to scan & upload)

- products geared toward showing how the game can encompass a wide variety of flavors (high fantasy, sword & sorcery, weird fantasy, wuxia, etc.), each with rules variations and add-ons for genre emulation

- bring back some of the classic settings (closer to their original presentations) to show how diverse the game can be (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, hell even Eberron if you like--each should feel different); again, this is an opportunity to package these products with cool tangible components

That's what I would do.  What would you do?  (Or, what would you add to my pie-in-the-sky model outlined above?)

And then, supplements that actually turn that base into whatever it is that you like in your D&D, whether you come from Classic, 3E, 4E whatnot? Like adding the concept of feats into a dedicated supplement, another turning your game into a battlemat, figs-heavy tactical game, another strictly balancing everything within the corpus of the rules like 4E intended, and so on?

Quote from: Benoist;500877So you're proposing a sort of spiritual child of Castles & Crusades for the base engine, if I understand this well?

Yeah, that's more or less in the ballpark of how I would imagine the base game.

QuoteAnd then, supplements that actually turn that base into whatever it is that you like in your D&D, whether you come from Classic, 3E, 4E whatnot? Like adding the concept of feats into a dedicated supplement, another turning your game into a battlemat, figs-heavy tactical game, another strictly balancing everything within the corpus of the rules like 4E intended, and so on?

Yeah, that's pretty much it.  One thing I want to add though: the add-ons would have be equal parts mechanical supplements and flavor/fluff/ideas about genre emulation.  

I wouldn't want this to head down the path of having to buy certain add-ons just because you wanted to add an obscure class to your character "build" (which was a problem I saw in 3e) or because you wanted to use a race that was inconveniently tucked-away in a supplement (like the drow race being introduced in the Forgotten Realms book in 4e).

Quote from: Rincewind1;500866Why? I'd love nothing more then rules how to convert creatures from MtG cards, and guidelines how to use random set of cards to set up a whole scenario.

Maybe I am the only guy who thinks MtG and DnD can go hand in hand :(.

I think there is mileage here.

When they design a MTG 'block' which is a set of 3 expansions each is set in a well designed and thought through world. These worlds have competing creatures with certain falvours. So in the Scars of Mirrodin Block they have a world full of 'magic machiones' robot like gollems basically. You have a race of elves, a bunch of these living machaniods, a tribe of Goblins, some human warriors, some cat people, some elephant men etc etc ...

There is easily material there for a D&D source book to accompany that Block. You have a beastiary, some new races, classes, spells, magic items etc etc.

The Blocks each have to have a strong theme otherwise the Mtg element feels flat and isn't terrible interesting so each of them, whether it's the Endless City world of Ravinca, the living tech of Mirrodin, the Gothic horror of Amistraad have a strong background and roleplay potential.

Quote from: misterguignol;500857I posted this is another thread last night, but the thread got consumed in the Darwinism shit storm.  So I'm posting it as its own thread.

I will admit upfront that I am neither a businessman nor a game designer nor an "industry professional," whatever that is.  But this is what I would do if I was suddenly put in charge of 5e:

- the core book (and it would be one book instead of the usual 3-book split) would be available as a free pdf download from the D&D website.  The came would be simplified; the complexities introduced in 3e and 4e would be stripped away.  The core book would also available in hardcover for people who like books as physical objects at the table.

If retro-clones can operate on this model, so can flagship D&D.  And I think it might need to, so it can prove that it is accessible as a game.  Also, let's not pretend that someone out there won't just pirate the core book anyway.

If they have the ability to make the next version of D&D scale-able in terms of complexity (which I am skeptical of) I could see them putting out things like:

- a boxed set for turning the basic combat engine into a tactical skirmish-level wargame (as it is in 4e) complete with battlemaps and counters (it's harder to pirate components than it is books, after all)

- a compendium of updated old-school classic modules (again perhaps in a box with goodies that would be difficult to scan & upload)

- products geared toward showing how the game can encompass a wide variety of flavors (high fantasy, sword & sorcery, weird fantasy, wuxia, etc.), each with rules variations and add-ons for genre emulation

- bring back some of the classic settings (closer to their original presentations) to show how diverse the game can be (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, hell even Eberron if you like--each should feel different); again, this is an opportunity to package these products with cool tangible components

That's what I would do.  What would you do?  (Or, what would you add to my pie-in-the-sky model outlined above?)

I like this one the best...

- bring back some of the classic settings (closer to their original presentations) to show how diverse the game can be (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, hell even Eberron if you like--each should feel different); again, this is an opportunity to package these products with cool tangible components

I'd take the D&D Rules Cyclopedia as starting point -  its a good book and I always preferred its simple iconic, classes to the class/race mix of AD&D.

I would streamline the rules a bit, make it more unified and take AC and Save from 3e for instance.

I would also do something to make the gameplay less attritional. The Vancian magic system, the resource management of hitpoints, healing spellls and potions are neither interesting nor heroic to me. And outside of the dungeon (or other situation where you can expect multiple encounters within a short space of time) it sort of gets in the way. To that effect I'd probably I'd replace the Vancian magic with a spell point system and make natural healing easier - maybe borrowing the concept of "reserves" from Omega World.

Also I'd add some sort of Hero Point mechanic. I personally feel all systems need some way to simulate those times a character is really motivated to put that extra bit of effort and oompf in what he does. It just seem crazy that regardless of whether you are trying to save your daughter or just your neighbour's pet turtle from a blazing fire you still roll the same D20 with the same exact odds.

That's the general picture. I'm pretty sure the fans would hate it and it would tank terribly, but when I do run D&D or the old TSR Gamma World that's the sort of spin I give it.

Just some random thoughts. Free PDF or better yet comprehensive online SRD is a very sustainable model. Certainly works for Paizo. Let's face it, if you are going to run a game or even if you just really like it you'll buy the hardcover.

Scalable complexity. This would be brilliant. If you had a base combat resolution system that could be scaled up to the tactical grid based resolution of 3/4E it would go a long way to pulling the disparate factions of D&D together. I could totally see running a game where you use one system to resolve standard combats and another for the really important ones...

Quote from: Fiasco;500950This would be brilliant. If you had a base combat resolution system that could be scaled up to the tactical grid based resolution of 3/4E it would go a long way to pulling the disparate factions of D&D together. I could totally see running a game where you use one system to resolve standard combats and another for the really important ones...

I know GURPS did this (up to 3rd ed, anyway).  Does anyone know any GURPS groups?  How did it work in practice?  I'm familiar with GURPS but no one around ever played it so I have no idea what it's like in the wild, beyond rumours that even the line editor doesn't play anything recognizable as GURPs any more.

Quote from: Soylent Green;500934I'd take the D&D Rules Cyclopedia as starting point -  its a good book and I always preferred its simple iconic, classes to the class/race mix of AD&D.

I would streamline the rules a bit, make it more unified and take AC and Save from 3e for instance.

I would also do something to make the gameplay less attritional. The Vancian magic system, the resource management of hitpoints, healing spellls and potions are neither interesting nor heroic to me. And outside of the dungeon (or other situation where you can expect multiple encounters within a short space of time) it sort of gets in the way. To that effect I'd probably I'd replace the Vancian magic with a spell point system and make natural healing easier - maybe borrowing the concept of "reserves" from Omega World.

Also I'd add some sort of Hero Point mechanic. I personally feel all systems need some way to simulate those times a character is really motivated to put that extra bit of effort and oompf in what he does. It just seem crazy that regardless of whether you are trying to save your daughter or just your neighbour's pet turtle from a blazing fire you still roll the same D20 with the same exact odds.

That's the general picture. I'm pretty sure the fans would hate it and it would tank terribly, but when I do run D&D or the old TSR Gamma World that's the sort of spin I give it.

I'd do something similar with the following mods:

"Binary" skills as per 4e, SW Saga.
"Powers" similar to 4x but structured differently (utility take too long to use in combat, stance/aura you can use 2 of at a time tops, and everything else at will). You get one per level, your choice. Most have a race, class, or skill prereq.
Damage doesn't scale much with level. Hit points do, but there's a massive damage threshold that doesn't. Beyond the MDC, cool bonus crap happens (like lighting folks on fire).
Healing is unlimited, but utility.
"Strikers" focus on mobility or range coupled with status effects (they're meant to take out dangerous foes like mages). Mages would have area-of-effect strength. Defenders would be able to soak damage and handle groups in melee (there are ways to do this with less "aggro" esque mechanics)... nothing terribly dissimilar from 4e here, except in the handling (defenders having DR instead of high hp, for example).
Abilities would be a mix of new Gamma World and older D&D. Fixed high stats assigned by race/class combo, with everything else being random.

There might be other stuff, but that much I'm pretty sure of.

I really think building characters out of smaller chunks (as per 3+) and taking the tactical approach (as per 4+) are the cool parts of those respective editions, outside structural simplifications (like using D20 roll high across the board, or attacker always rolls vs static defense).

I don't know about the free PDF thing. It works for small press stuff because they need the publicity more than they need the money from the PDFs. As tablets & e-readers become more ubiquitous, the comparative utility of books vs PDFs weighs more in favor of PDFs. So I'd only give away the PDF if I could also afford to sell the book at cost. In other words, only if the text of the core rules is a pump-primer for other products such as modules, miniatures & battle mats, novels, comics, movies, toys, T-Shirts, coffee mugs, D&D-branded condoms, etc.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;500994I don't know about the free PDF thing. It works for small press stuff because they need the more than they need the money from the PDFs. As tablets & e-readers become more ubiquitous, the comparative utility of books vs PDFs weighs more in favor of PDFs. So I'd only give away the PDF if I could also afford to sell the book at cost. In other words, only if the text of the core rules is a pump-primer for other products such as modules, miniatures & battle mats, novels, comics, movies, toys, T-Shirts, coffee mugs, D&D-branded condoms, etc.

Personally, I think they would need to get their new edition in front of as many former customers as possible.  A free pdf would insure that most gamers, regardless of how put off they might have been with previous editions, would at least give it a look.

I think it's all brilliant.

A Free PDF would make it widely accessible IMHO, and would go a long ways towards unifying the edition camps.

I think going a step further, and making it OGL with a standard SRD so companies could expand the base as well, would be superb. Despite the general dislike of the OGL around here, I think the idea is a good one.

Quote from: trechriron;501002I think it's all brilliant.

A Free PDF would make it widely accessible IMHO, and would go a long ways towards unifying the edition camps.

I think going a step further, and making it OGL with a standard SRD so companies could expand the base as well, would be superb. Despite the general dislike of the OGL around here, I think the idea is a good one.

SRD would be a must-have.  

Also, it would be great to see company-produced videos on how to actually play the game.  Show people that it is both possible and fun, instead of a chore for socially-inept nerds.

 For example, there are tons of videos on Youtube that show how to play Warhammer's wargames...and these go a whole lot further in making the game look approachable and entertaining than reading the dry rulebook does.

Right, I don't think the OGL really hurt D&D until WotC themselves decided to deliberately make their game incompatible with it, at which point they found they couldn't simply bury the old edition.

I don't think the OGL is generally disliked here, but whatever, it's a good point. Possibly they shouldn't make the PDF all pretty and all.

Whether they should re-embrace the OGL is another good question. Again, I don't think anyone really moved strongly into D&D's territory until WotC abandoned it themselves. If OGLifying and returning to something like the D20 license can bring 3rd party publishers on board, sure, why not? The only problem is that IMO the model of making your money via forced upgrades of core books has been repudiated. That means that, going forward, WotC would have to compete with those same 3rd parties in the area of supplements. Can they?

Anyway ultimately the question is, if they give away the text of the rules, what exactly are they going to sell? They need to have really compelling add-ons beyond just the text, and I don't think a printed version of the core book (or a "nice" PDF) will offer that much marginal value, even compared to a barebones PDF, as time goes on.

If I owned it free and clear:

Simplified rules, along the lines of Castles and Crusades, but with a decent yet simple skill system.

$5 PDF. Make some money off of this, but also it's cheap enough that most gamers will buy it.

OGL, except for the trademarked stuff like beholders and githyanki.

Forgotten Realms as the only setting. The 4e version never happened. Set it 10 years after the last 3e book. No massive earthquakes. No death of Mystra or other gods, etc. Make sure people don't need all of the 2e/3e books to run it, though.

Maybe lease the other old settings to other publishers, similar to how it was done with Ravenloft and White Wolf.

Give Paizo the option to restart Dragon and Dungeon magazines in print.

Advertise the heck out of the game on Cartoon Network and other channels frequented by the target customer base.

Quote from: misterguignol;500857- the core book (and it would be one book instead of the usual 3-book split) would be available as a free pdf download from the D&D website.  The came would be simplified; the complexities introduced in 3e and 4e would be stripped away.  The core book would also available in hardcover for people who like books as physical objects at the table.

I'm on record elsewhere as saying that, if I were in charge of WotC, I would shelve 5E and stick with 4E. I don't see a winning angle for 5E. But if a 5E were mandated and I was in charge of it...

- I would go one step further and also strip away the complexities of AD&D.

- I'd use a stripped-down 3E as my design base for this (think Legends & Labyrinths), but do some heavy revision. Notably, I'd make sure that everybody got high-level toys (not just the spellcasters).

- I'd look to the OSR and reintroduce game structures that have been slowly stripped out of the game for the past 30 years.

- I'd look to 4E and pull page 42 and easier monster stat block creation.

- The core of the D&D line would look something like this (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/4049/roleplaying-games/thought-of-the-day-driving-4th-edition-from-the-backseat). Boxed sets that look like games and are sold as games.

- I would re-introduce the AD&D brand name to produce a Player's Handbook, a Dungeon Master's Guide, and a Monster Manual. These would be 100% compatible with the D&D product line. (If you've got a D&D module, you can run it in AD&D without conversion. If you create a monster with AD&D, you can run it in D&D. If you've got a D&D character, you can start using the AD&D character creation rules any time you level up. And so forth.)

- Theoretically, I'm hoping that I can buck the burnout pattern of the supplement treadmill by locking adventure content, rule content, and physical goodie content together into the boxed sets. If that doesn't pan out, I'll just turn the boxed sets into limited editions and cycle them out of print. (Maybe, like Disney, I'll bring them back into print every seven years.)

- Meanwhile, I'd go back to Dancey's concept of "evergreen" products and try to make it work by focusing my actual supplement line on opening up new game structures. For example, I wouldn't produce a book of "rules for ships". Rules for ships are worthless unless you have a game structure that involves being on ships. What needs to be developed is a game structure for "being pirates" that's as effective as the game structure for "being dungeoncrawlers". Pull that off successfully and you'll have created an entirely new market for adventure products.

- I would probably do everything in my power to avoid publishing splatbooks like Complete Warrior or Arcane Power. These books are not only the metastatic cancer of the supplement treadmill, but they make it actively more difficult for people to embrace non-"core" classes because the non-core classes never receive the same support. I'd rather have people reach for new experiences rather than glutting and then sating themselves on the supplement treadmill for fighters and wizards.

- Bring back the OGL if the legal department will let me get away with it.

So, to sum up:

(1) Classic D&D gameplay. BECMI-style simplicity in a series of rotating box sets that is 100% compatible with the AD&D PHB/DMG/MM trio (which provides the more advanced options and detailed bits that experienced players can't live without).

(2) The actual product line is kept tight: The rotating boxed sets. The AD&D core books. And a series of AD&D evergreen books each aimed at opening up a new campaign structure.

(3) Additional support through DDI. Notably, a complete adventure path (or adventure path equivalent) each year. (Which means we're producing two full adventure paths for the game each year.)

Quote from: Rincewind1;500866Why? I'd love nothing more then rules how to convert creatures from MtG cards, and guidelines how to use random set of cards to set up a whole scenario.

The former is meaningless. (The conversion guidelines would necessarily be "take the picture and make up some stats for it"; there's nothing in common between how MtG stats up a creature and how an RPG stats up a creature.)

The latter is probably best served as an article in Dragon. It's no better or worse than a dozen other random idea seeds.

With that being said, I certainly do think there is a lot of merit in the idea of leveraging the MtG IP into D&D. The MtG setting(s) are pretty awesome and I think WotC's fear of a backlash is probably a decade out of date at this point.

Hardcopy  core rules sales should be profitable even with free PDF. If want to play the game you will want the Hardcopy.

Quote from: Soylent Green;500934I

That's the general picture. I'm pretty sure the fans would hate it and it would tank terribly, but when I do run D&D or the old TSR Gamma World that's the sort of spin I give it.

I might spin it a little differently, but I like the general outline.

I'd have a complete core book. All classes, all races. While I like the "fixed" elements of D&D's Cyclopedia, I realize that its not hard to expand "Elf" to "Elf Wizard" or "Elf Fighter" and so on.

All races get one +2 stat. No minuses. All races get 1 special "boon" which can be a big additional thing or several balanced small things. Elves get Starlight Vision, and +1 bonus to Magical effects. Dwarves get Darkvision, and something else from their classic D&D traits.

Skills exist but are just a +2 bonus to an attribute check on d20. Skills are simple, but robust things that let you do non combat/magic things.


Spellcasting isn't point based. Its a check. Period. You roll stat+level+D20 vs the casting Difficulty number. That's it. If a sword can be swung all day you can fling magic. Of course the harder spells take longer to focus, and have much higher numbers.

Fighters get "Feats" similar to Weapon Mastery Abilities, but based on level, weapon choice, and a die roll 1d20+stat bonus+level to do things like entangle, trip, cut arrows from the air, etc. These bonuses are ONLY doable with a Fighter class. Thieves get similar but alternate "special tricks," of a more deceptive and criminal nature. Leaping from the Shadows, Throwing blinding powder in a foes face, rolling with the blow. Masters of Agility and Stealth.

Classes: 4. Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Thief. Anything else comes from multiclassing in some way. Most special abilities fall under skills with a few Magic ones (Curing Hands, Shapeshifting) coming with an earned title/subclass "Paladin" "Druid"  You play as a neutral cleric--you get to 3rd level? You can pick up the Druid Title, instead of Noviate. Get Druid stuff. Get to 3rd Level Fighter? Get Ranger. and so on.

This lets simple character aspects be learned before more complex ones for new players. It also allows "in character" play to impact your more subtle class differences. (Fighters joining a Clerical order, and becoming Paladins. Thieve relying on entertaining skills to become Bards. Etc.)

Otherwise it be mostly the Cyclopedia with hopefully subtle changes.

I'd settle for 3e with fixed math and nerfed spellcasters.

Quote from: Rincewind1;500859Add settings from Magic the Gathering.

Add rules how to combine MtG cards with DnD.

Riiiiight...because I want to have to learn M:tG in order to play D&D now...as if the game wasn't already a wet dream for people with Asperger's.

1. License D&D out to Paizo. Pathfinder changes name to D&D. Pathfinder novels become D&D novels. Pathfinder MMO becomes the D&D MMO, etc.

2. Make the whole back catalog available. Everything from OD&D to 4e.

3. ???

4. Profit? (hopefully)

Quote from: Rincewind1;500866Why? I'd love nothing more then rules how to convert creatures from MtG cards, and guidelines how to use random set of cards to set up a whole scenario.

Maybe I am the only guy who thinks MtG and DnD can go hand in hand :(.

There was a lot (a lot) of crowing about this when WotC bought TSR, but it turns out that they prefer not to confuse the brands.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;501531There was a lot (a lot) of crowing about this when WotC bought TSR, but it turns out that they prefer not to confuse the brands.

I'm surprised that "synergistic backwards overflow" doesn't appeal to them.

I just don't think the two games are compatible in any way beyond both being high fantasy--Magic revolves around dimension-hopping godlike wizards trying to destroy each other, with even the greatest adventurers and heroes as pawns you can buy with a few points of magic tree-juice or hill-juice. This doesn't mesh with any of the D&D campaign settings except Forgotten Realms, I don't think.

Although seeing the Forgotten Realms blended with Dominaria and effectively destroyed would really amuse me.

Quote from: The Butcher;5011791. License D&D out to Paizo. Pathfinder changes name to D&D. Pathfinder novels become D&D novels. Pathfinder MMO becomes the D&D MMO, etc.

2. Make the whole back catalog available. Everything from OD&D to 4e.

3. ???

4. Profit? (hopefully)

#3 is "Wizards retains the right to spin-offs, including video games, board games, card games, etc. based on the IP, and lets Paizo deal with RPGs and novels (the two least lucrative ends of the business).

Quote from: Halloween Jack;501535I just don't think the two games are compatible in any way beyond both being high fantasy--Magic revolves around dimension-hopping godlike wizards trying to destroy each other, with even the greatest adventurers and heroes as pawns you can buy with a few points of magic tree-juice or hill-juice. This doesn't mesh with any of the D&D campaign settings except Forgotten Realms, I don't think.

Although seeing the Forgotten Realms blended with Dominaria and effectively destroyed would really amuse me.

Hmm, I've never played Magic, but what you wrote gave me an idea.

 In Zak Smith's Vornheim book there is a system for playing a game of chess outside of the normal game session to determine what is going on with various organization's machinations.

Perhaps there could be a game of Magic played outside of the normal game session to determine what is going on with the various machinations of the settings Big Wzards.  Something like Elminster vs...whatever Bad Wizard Guy he butts head against.

Butcher's proposal would actually be very smart IMO.

Quote from: misterguignol;501538Hmm, I've never played Magic, but what you wrote gave me an idea.

 In Zak Smith's Vornheim book there is a system for playing a game of chess outside of the normal game session to determine what is going on with various organization's machinations.

Perhaps there could be a game of Magic played outside of the normal game session to determine what is going on with the various machinations of the settings Big Wzards.  Something like Elminster vs...whatever Bad Wizard Guy he butts head against.

Personally, I wouldn't want to play in a setting where it's a given that all the movers and shakers of the setting are wizard lords.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;501572Personally, I wouldn't want to play in a setting where it's a given that all the movers and shakers of the setting are wizard lords.

You can play a game of Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots to figure out what the fighter movers and shakers are up to, if you like.

I was playing MtG the other day and the idea of integration came up again.
I think the concept of releasing setting books taken from MtG is a really good one.
Now you don't want to play magic in game that would be daft and ruin immersion but the idea of a setting book based on the Block is a good one.
Everyone hates the treadmill of splat-books but a company needs to make money from the game and the market is small so you have no choice but to sell multiple books to your consumers. However, you also want to expand the base and have a simpler evergreen game system.
If your core game is DMG, PHB, Monster manual and you decide not to release a host of other books then a releasing a new setting each year, on the basis that it's something quite disposable and that next year there will be another one is actually a bloody good idea. The settings can be divorced from the MtG conceit of wizards zapping about destroying planes of existence. You modify the historic D&D planar model to the MtG model where the MtG planes are basically iterations of the Prime Material.
Each setting can have new classes, monsters, spells, items and the rest as show in the cards. The Block release comes in 3 stages with some concept of a meta-plot so that gives you 3 setting books a year.
Because it's not trying to change the base game all books are totally optional and some settings will appeal to you some won't.  The base game stays evergreen. The setting books might even have appeal to MtG fans who want the background fluff, artwork etc.
Personally, I my core rules would include a toolbox for DMs to make new classes, monsters, spells etc and the setting books would largely be iterations of those rules.
I have to say that I would probably add some additional Options books to the core 3 book set. These would be for DMs to include or not and would be Advanced combat (martial arts, weapon and armour options etc ), Advanced Magic (with how to create new items, spells etc) , Advanced Skills (for the rogue types but basically a more comprehensive skills system). I would make these separate merely to keep the core rules light and allow new players an easier entry point but to provide enough crunch for the old hands.

I would have an ad campaign showing fat, slovenly unshaved and unwashed men playing 1E in a basement. Then playing 2E in the basement and looking older. Then playing 3E in the basement and being older, fatter, and even more unwashed. The 4E being played in the garage, with younger people, still fat.

Then the garage door rises, and they shrink back from the light hissing in fear and pain, then burst into flame.

Cut to normal people playing 5E and having fun, clean, polite, in a social surrounding.

Cue the label: "Fifth Edition! Now with Less Neckbeards!"

Quote from: T-Willard;501686I would have an ad campaign showing fat, slovenly unshaved and unwashed men playing 1E in a basement. Then playing 2E in the basement and looking older. Then playing 3E in the basement and being older, fatter, and even more unwashed. The 4E being played in the garage, with younger people, still fat.

Then the garage door rises, and they shrink back from the light hissing in fear and pain, then burst into flame.

Cut to normal people playing 5E and having fun, clean, polite, in a social surrounding.

Cue the label: "Fifth Edition! Now with Less Neckbeards!"

:D

Slogans for 5e:

"A version of Dungeons and Dragons unsuitable for paedophiles"
"The roleplaying game that does not cause cancer!"
"30% more box in every boxed set!"
"For when your computer has broken down!"
"Compatible with all platforms, from shelves to tables to floors!"

Quote from: T-Willard;501686I would have an ad campaign showing fat, slovenly unshaved and unwashed men playing 1E in a basement. Then playing 2E in the basement and looking older. Then playing 3E in the basement and being older, fatter, and even more unwashed. The 4E being played in the garage, with younger people, still fat.

Then the garage door rises, and they shrink back from the light hissing in fear and pain, then burst into flame.

Cut to normal people playing 5E and having fun, clean, polite, in a social surrounding.

Cue the label: "Fifth Edition! Now with Less Neckbeards!"

If pissing off your aging, male, antisocial base was the key to success, the Republican Party woulda done it by now.

JG

Quote from: T-Willard;501686Cut to normal people playing 5E and having fun, clean, polite, in a social surrounding.

Cue the label: "Fifth Edition! Now with Less Neckbeards!"

You could have the multiracial caste laughing and cheering, rolling dice and playing cards on a colorful game board.

Quote from: Benoist;501553Butcher's proposal would actually be very smart IMO.

My heart belongs 100% to the TSR-era editions of the game (I'm looking at a copy of the BECMI D&D Hollow World boxed set on my desk, bought today from an old friend. Oh joy), but I'm realistic about it: I think 3e/3.5e is the most commercially viable version of D&D, the one most likely to succeed in today's marketplace, and right now, the most popular one.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501537#3 is "Wizards retains the right to spin-offs, including video games, board games, card games, etc. based on the IP, and lets Paizo deal with RPGs and novels (the two least lucrative ends of the business).

Pseudo's nailed it.

I am no business whiz, but I suppose Paizo has proved that they are more competent at promoting, selling and supporting D&D than the current owners of the D&D brand. I feel making up with Paizo and licensing the "D&D" stamp out to them would be good for both parts, as Paizo gets the D&D stamp and Hasbro/WotC is free to milk the IP for all it's worth on other fronts; hopefully starting by securing a good  and functional videogame licensing deal. We've been years without new D&D games, which is ridiculous. WoW is growing old and bleeding subscriptions for the first time ever, if they want a slice of the MMO market now's the fucking time.

Also kid stuff. Why not a new D&D cartoon, complete with toy line, aimed at kids in their early teens? Yes, it would probably suck by our jaded grognard standards, but you've got to reel in the young 'uns if you want to keep the hobby and by extension the IP alive.

Again, I'm no business guy, I'm just making this shit up as I go along. Thoughts?

Quote from: James Gillen;501698If pissing off your aging, male, antisocial base was the key to success, the Republican Party woulda done it by now.

JG

Divorcing an anti-social group from a social game sounds win to me!

NOW WITH LESS CREEPY ANTI-SOCIAL WEIRDOS!

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501697:D

Slogans for 5e:

"A version of Dungeons and Dragons unsuitable for paedophiles"
"The roleplaying game that does not cause cancer!"
"30% more box in every boxed set!"
"For when your computer has broken down!"
"Compatible with all platforms, from shelves to tables to floors!"

You forgot "For when the WoW servers are  down".

Quote from: The Butcher;501719Also kid stuff. Why not a new D&D cartoon, complete with toy line, aimed at kids in their early teens? Yes, it would probably suck by our jaded grognard standards, but you've got to reel in the young 'uns if you want to keep the hobby and by extension the IP alive.

Again, I'm no business guy, I'm just making this shit up as I go along. Thoughts?

As a kid I loved the cartoon and the D&D action figures (anyone else remember the fortress of fangs?). A cartoon makes sense to me.

Quote from: The Butcher;501719I am no business whiz, but I suppose Paizo has proved that they are more competent at promoting, selling and supporting D&D than the current owners of the D&D brand. I feel making up with Paizo and licensing the "D&D" stamp out to them would be good for both parts, as Paizo gets the D&D stamp and Hasbro/WotC is free to milk the IP for all it's worth on other fronts; hopefully starting by securing a good  and functional videogame licensing deal. We've been years without new D&D games, which is ridiculous. WoW is growing old and bleeding subscriptions for the first time ever, if they want a slice of the MMO market now's the fucking time.

Also kid stuff. Why not a new D&D cartoon, complete with toy line, aimed at kids in their early teens? Yes, it would probably suck by our jaded grognard standards, but you've got to reel in the young 'uns if you want to keep the hobby and by extension the IP alive.

Again, I'm no business guy, I'm just making this shit up as I go along. Thoughts?

The TV show could easily be aired on Hasbro-owned channel "The Hub" along with whatever transformers thing they've got going now.

Also I think the license (for videogames or MMOs) has been tied up for a while, but that's just now being resolved IIRC.

And I think "let Paizo handle it" would be a good way to handle it only when Paizo's ready for a new edition. This name change would give them an excuse to make a genuinely new edition (where previously it was the rules' similarity to 3x that made Pathfinder heir apparent, now they would have the name). In a world where this happened, I imagine we would have to wait another 3 or 4 years for it, as Pathfinder is still making money.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501757You forgot "For when the WoW servers are  down".

Now THERE's an ad slogan.

JG

Quote from: The Butcher;501719Pseudo's nailed it.

I am no business whiz, but I suppose Paizo has proved that they are more competent at promoting, selling and supporting D&D than the current owners of the D&D brand. I feel making up with Paizo and licensing the "D&D" stamp out to them would be good for both parts, as Paizo gets the D&D stamp and Hasbro/WotC is free to milk the IP for all it's worth on other fronts; hopefully starting by securing a good  and functional videogame licensing deal. We've been years without new D&D games, which is ridiculous. WoW is growing old and bleeding subscriptions for the first time ever, if they want a slice of the MMO market now's the fucking time.

Also kid stuff. Why not a new D&D cartoon, complete with toy line, aimed at kids in their early teens? Yes, it would probably suck by our jaded grognard standards, but you've got to reel in the young 'uns if you want to keep the hobby and by extension the IP alive.

Again, I'm no business guy, I'm just making this shit up as I go along. Thoughts?

A problem I see with this is that Paizo makes some money with derivative Pathfinder products. You know the battle maps, the card deks, item decks, all that stuff. Maybe it's not central to its PF strategy, but it's part of it nonetheless. So if the contract to reacquire the D&D license shapes itself like this, that means Paizo will have to (1) rethink its marketing strategy for Pathfinder-D&D from the ground up, and (2) lest we forget, actually put itself back in the situation where Dragon and Dungeon mags were licensed to the company, thereby recreating the scenario where these licenses could be taken away from them once more.

For these two reasons, I actually think that Paizo would say "No, thanks." It would be an idea for WotC, for sure, but Paizo... not so much.

This thread has suddenly become much more relevant.

As for me, there are two possible tactics I'd take here; but since I've just started an email correspondence with Mike Mearls, I think I'll reserve descriptions for later.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;502210but since I've just started an email correspondence with Mike Mearls, I think I'll reserve descriptions for later.

RPGPundit

Hope he's not too sensitive about your recent denigration of his physical features...

Quote from: The_Shadow;502211Hope he's not too sensitive about your recent denigration of his physical features...

That's called "playing hardball".

RPGPundit

I'll just shime in to say that I share Misterguignol's idea in that I believe the OD&D (1974) format was a winning idea that came to be pretty much by accident at the time (lack of budget, different settings between Gygax and Arneson, etc): the game itself, simple, which sparked your imagination to play the game without much strings attached, and then the Supplements, which each had their own takes on the game, adding this or that element of play, that you could use separately, or in combination to each other, or just as inspiration to your own private 'supplement', so you could take the game in the  directions you wanted.

So I basically agree with MG's premise: a simple game, loose, that you can play like B/X D&D, create characters in 5-10 minutes tops, that includes the focus on exploration, advice on the dungeon and the wilderness, how to come up with your own environments and so on, that you can expand on on your own and provides the tools to do so, that is NOT bound to tactical miniatures and grids and all that bullshit. Format would be a box with three little booklets inside that you can easily handle at the game table, sheets of reference and dice. THEN the supplements, adding selected elements to the basic frame of the game which you can use separately or in combination with each other. One supplement to add tactical mini combat to the game. One supplement that focuses on building grand epics and changing the game into a storytelling exercise. One supplement about world building and the sandbox playstyle. And so on. Maybe these could have different colors for their covers, or boxes, that people could associate with Mentzer D&D.

A swiss army knife, with the core being basically B/X or similar in spirit and execution, and the supplements adding a tool to the basic knife frame so YOU can make the game what you really want it to be for you and your friends at the game table. That's the winning recipe to me.

More thoughts later.

Quote from: RPGPundit;502210This thread has suddenly become much more relevant.

What can I say?  I'm prescient like that.