Cool, thanks. I'll check 'em out.

ETA: I knew about the rpgnet one, but I tend to distrust their reviews. No offense, just the way it is. I could be wrong.

Quote from: SunBoy;322840I knew about the rpgnet one, but I tend to distrust their reviews.

Well, there are actually sixteen of them, not only one. Reviewing Nob got a little out of hand after the second edition was published back in '02, and the sheer number of those reviews is the reason why the game still scores so high in RPGnet's rating index. Four of them are about the original first edition released through Pharos Press, though: the so-called "Little Pink Book."

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;322414So, there are no charisma checks or persuasion rolls or any of that.  You just talk.  I think that is kind of cool.

Holy crap, that's how we play almost every game around here (meaning our group, not RPGsite).

I've never read Nobilis, only reviews and threads.  It sounds like the sort of game I'd get excited about, buy, read, get more excited about, try to run, get frustrated, blame my players for not 'getting it', weep a little, blame myself for not running it right, and then it would sit on a shelf*.  Which is all me and not necessarily the fault of the game, of course.  *shrug*

Oh, and for what it's worth, I find writing styles like those of Borgstrom (and Gaiman, for that matter) are really most impressive to people who have never read, say, Borges or Dunsany.



(* = known in our house as Spirit of the Century Syndrome, or SOTCS)

Ok. Having read the reviews, I really don't get what the big fuss is about. It seems like the thingie might do for a fun game, though I haven't found any references on how these miracle points work for the alleged "control over setting" some people (me included) so dislike. I'll have to read the book. If it turns out to work something like the homebrew I mentioned above, then it might be cool. I'm having cold feet about the prose, though, which even the kindest reviews judge "hard" at best and "dense" or worst at the other extreme. That said, I've found that the alleged "pretentiousness" of some books, while it may be annoying, is not really an obstacle for using and enjoying a game (VtM, case in point). Actually, systemwise, this one seems pretty straightforward so far. Rank comparing with the possible addition of "bennies", amirite? Maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but I don't see how that's too different from the Amber system (I mean that not as a insult nor a compliment, just a simple statement of my perceptions so far).

So, more to the point, please correct me if I'm wrong. Setting is simple enough, in my mind, so about mechanics:
Players portray powers, which are defined more or less by a word or phrase (say, Power of Plants). The character's degree of control over this "element" is defined by their Aspect and their Domain. Then the Realm attribute says how powerful the character is over his chancel... and I'm still a little fuzzy over what Spirit is for. To make stuff happen, players spend miracle points, with a cost based on the relevant attribute versus what they're trying to accomplish. That's more or less it, right? I'd appreciate some input about this. I'm seriously considering this game. Sounds pretty nice for a PbP/PbeM, or for a quick game.

On a somewhat different note: You know, people, that's what I find most amusing about all this. For what I can understand so far, the game is pretty simple when the rules are extricated from the prose. It would make it pretty simple to explain ("you get to play god/immortals/powers that be"), and pretty quick to start when properly guided in chargen. So, WHAT THE FUCK IS SO HORRIBLY COMPLICATED ABOUT IT ALL?!? I really don't get it.

One more thing. "Hollyhock God". If GrimGent is right, then it is not so different from calling the GM "the pompous jerk". I find that rather amusing, though I'd go on with "GM" anyway. Just a question of habit, I've never called the arbiter anything else.

Thanks.

@VectorSigma: I love Borges, and I enjoy Gaiman. I don't see how the two are opposed.

Quote from: VectorSigma;322852Oh, and for what it's worth, I find writing styles like those of Borgstrom (and Gaiman, for that matter) are really most impressive to people who have never read, say, Borges or Dunsany.

Hmm. Those are admittedly some of my favourite authors, and it's not particularly difficult to see traces of their influence in Borgstrom's short fiction, either. (She's an obvious fan of Jack Vance, too.) Heck, nearly the entirety of her Hitherby Dragons story blog is explicitly set at the Tower of the Gibbelins, now serving as a stage for a theatre company which acts out legends.

Quote from: SunBoy;322855@VectorSigma: I love Borges, and I enjoy Gaiman. I don't see how the two are opposed.

Not opposed at all.  But one came first, and most people only know about the latecomer.

Borges is the Beatles.  Gaiman is...Oasis or something else that sounds kinda like the Beatles.  And there's nothing inherently wrong with that.  I'm just saying that Oasis sounds more impressive if you've never heard the Beatles; if you already know the Beatles...

Quote from: SunBoy;322854On a somewhat different note: You know, people, that's what I find most amusing about all this. For what I can understand so far, the game is pretty simple when the rules are extricated from the prose. It would make it pretty simple to explain ("you get to play god/immortals/powers that be"), and pretty quick to start when properly guided in chargen. So, WHAT THE FUCK IS SO HORRIBLY COMPLICATED ABOUT IT ALL?!? I really don't get it.

It is simple, or at least it should be. The setting has its quirks, but even something like the relationship between the prosaic and mythic realities isn't that mind-bogglingly hard to grasp. And as I've said before, the game really is quite traditional at heart.

All right, let's see about the mechanics... There are two kinds of actions, mundane and miraculous, and you get to perform one of each per turn. (You can also sustain a single miracle indefinitely as long as you don't spend points on anything in the meantime.) Mundane actions cover routine everyday activities that mostly wouldn't even be worth resolving mechanically: walking down the street, talking into a cellphone, cooking spaghetti for supper, that sort of thing. By contrast, all actions that are actually based on the four attributes are considered miraculous.

Aspect measures physical and mental fitness, how far the character's body and mind have been transfigured by the divine energies coursing through them. In practice, it's the baseline attribute for all actions based on personal competence.

Domain measures affinity with and control over the concept entrusted into the character's care. Picture the magic system from Ars Magica, only with Techniques ranked according to difficulty and Forms defined by the players, and you should have an idea how it works.

Realm measures authority and status within the pocket reality of the Chancel where the character's Familia rules. It functions nearly identically with Domain except only within the Chancel, but on the other hand over there it can affect anything from the local people to the landscape.

Spirit measures the balance and harmony between the two spirits within the character, the mortal soul and the divine soul-shard which confers Nobility. It enhances the efficiency of various magical rituals and boosts resistance against hostile miracles. It's also the one attribute with only passive effects: unlike the other three attribute, it's never actively used for its own miracles as such.

The GM assigns a difficulty level for each miracle according to the guidelines in the book, much like with any roll-over system. Essentially, attributes range from 0 to 5 and miracle levels from 0 to 9. As long as that difficulty doesn't exceed the relevant attribute rating, the action is considered simple and doesn't exhaust the character at all. If the difficulty exceeds the attribute but not by more than four, the difference can be made up by spending miracle points from a small pool associated with that particular attribute, slowly draining the character's energy reserves. If the difficulty exceeds the attribute by more than four but not by more than eight, the character can only succeed in the action by speaking a Word of Command which tears away some of his own essence to fuel the miracle, requiring eight MPs and causing a grievous wound that only time can heal. And if the difficulty exceeds the difficulty by more than eight, or if the character doesn't have enough MPs left... it cannot be done.

By the way, by default the characters start with five MPs in each attribute. These only refresh automatically at the beginning of every story: not scene, not even session. While there are ways to regain the points during play, they typically aren't something to squander recklessly, and you certainly won't be spending them on every action. The attribute ratings alone indicate what the characters can accomplish effortlessly. The point pools measure how much further they can push themselves in an emergency.

In a straight-forward clash between two miracles, the one with the higher level overcomes the other, whereas a tie cancels out both effects. The GM can modify the result based on the exact circumstances, of course. Note that the attributes are never compared directly, only the power levels of temporary actions based on those attributes, and it's in fact rather difficult to figure out the stats of anyone else except your own character since the mechanics conceal those from public view. You must discover them for yourself through trial and error; and even then you can never be perfectly certain that some hidden factor in the current situation wasn't augmenting or hampering the abilities of the others, so that they might well surprise you when you meet again.

One additional complication to notice is the Auctoritas which surrounds supernaturally empowered characters. The effects of all miracles performed by anyone else fizzle out within five feet of the likes of the PCs, unless the miracle-worker prepares in advance for that by adding Penetration into the effort. Every point of Penetration raises the difficulty level by one without increasing the effective power level at all, and the miracle will pierce the Auctoritas if its Penetration at least equals the target's Spirit attribute... which, as mentioned, you can't tell just by looking at them.

As for "control over setting"... All the players together create their Imperator and Chancel before play begins. That's it. There are no metagame resources like drama points. Even the existence of the mystical energies represented by miracle points is common knowledge among the characters: one MP equals enough energy to perform one normal miracle. The PCs have power over the setting because they are powerful, not because the players have some special narrative tricks up their sleeves.

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;322414So, there are no charisma checks or persuasion rolls or any of that.  You just talk.  I think that is kind of cool.

So, it's just like 1st edition AD&D?

Quote from: Nazgul;322895So, it's just like 1st edition AD&D?

Didn't 1st ed. have a charisma based reaction chart, or did that show up later?

In any event, nobles can use their miraculous power to command the minds of humans, by various means.  But when dealing w/ other nobles, it is pretty much "just talking".

Quote from: GrimGent;322871It is simple, or at least it should be. The setting has its quirks, but even something like the relationship between the prosaic and mythic realities isn't that mind-bogglingly hard to grasp. And as I've said before, the game really is quite traditional at heart.(...)

Cool. Just like you say, it seems pretty trad. That's why I wasn't getting all the hate. I've got just one more question, and I'll quit bothering. This is pretty important for me, actually. How is the conflict handled, in game? Specifically: say a bad guy does a miracle to spit fire at you (lesser creation of fire, IIRC from the rpgnet thing), and you're the water guy. Let's say you wanna do a "lesser creation of water" to defend yourself. Now, if the fire guy is a NPC, that's OK, I suppose you just tell the GM (or HG) how many points you wanna spend, if any, and then the total, and then he tells you what happens. Now, what if the conflict is between PCs? If the first to talk says "I get a 7" then it's pretty easy to say "right, then I use two MPs and get an 8". I know it'll be very easy to say "I do THIS" and pass a little scrap of paper with your totals in it, but is there some mechanic to avoid this? Are these "mechanic to conceal your numbers" easy to explain here? If not, I guess I'll find out in the book, but I'm VERY curious about that. Thanks for taking the time, man.

Quote from: VectorSigma;322865Not opposed at all.  But one came first, and most people only know about the latecomer.

Borges is the Beatles.  Gaiman is...Oasis or something else that sounds kinda like the Beatles.  And there's nothing inherently wrong with that.  I'm just saying that Oasis sounds more impressive if you've never heard the Beatles; if you already know the Beatles...

I see what you mean, but I don't find them that similar. Borges' subjects are so much more varied (I admit I'm more familiar with him than Gaiman). Note that I do not say "themes". The guy was so obsessed with death and stuff decaying that at times it seems that's the only thing he wrote about (in fiction). But yes, there's some of that Beatles/Oasis thing. Good one.

Quote from: SunBoy;323001How is the conflict handled, in game? Specifically: say a bad guy does a miracle to spit fire at you (lesser creation of fire, IIRC from the rpgnet thing), and you're the water guy. Let's say you wanna do a "lesser creation of water" to defend yourself. Now, if the fire guy is a NPC, that's OK, I suppose you just tell the GM (or HG) how many points you wanna spend, if any, and then the total, and then he tells you what happens. Now, what if the conflict is between PCs?

That would depend on who announces their actions first. Lesser Creations are always level 4 miracles by default, although the miracle-worker can crank up the level deliberately in order to counter a more powerful effect. (The rules specify what each level of each attribute can accomplish.) So regardless of whether the fellow hurling fire at you is a PC or an NPC, once you become aware of the attack coming at you, you can avoid it, for example side-stepping the flames as an Aspect 4 dodge or conjuring jets of water to douse them as a Domain 4 manifestation. Obviously, if you have Aspect or Domain at 4 or higher, or possess a personal Gift suited for evading such attacks (maybe you can turn immaterial or spew clouds of steam or call for supernatural bodyguards to take the blow), you'll want to use those since then the effort won't cost you any miracle points. "Blind bidding" isn't really part of the system: the uncertainty comes from not knowing which abilities or resources the opponents have available and how much resorting to those exhausts them. (Maybe this time your enemy is wearing a borrowed magical ring which allows him to keep tossing the fireballs for free, or maybe he's channeling power from whatever dread master he serves, or maybe he just has a Gift for flames.) With another PC, you've no doubt already learned their strengths and weaknesses well enough not to be surprised by what they can throw at you.

Note that the system almost always favours the defender. The attacker must add Penetration for the fireball to cause any harm to Nobles, after all, which will rapidly drain those precious MPs. To be absolutely certain that the attack will get through the Auctoritas, you'd need Penetration 5 which turns that Lesser Creation into a difficulty 9 miracle with still only a level 4 effect; and level 4 isn't even enough to hurt an otherwise healthy Noble protected by the weakest defensive Gift out there. Fighting an "Inferno", someone with Spirit 5, through brute force is rarely practical.

Anyway, outright PvP doesn't play an important role in the setting, and for instance trying to steal MPs from another member of your Familia through the Nettle Rite (by deliberately ruining something that they care about) won't achieve much since you effectively share one soul with them. You form a family tied together by spirit rather than blood. That's a major difference from Amber: Nobilis is intended to be co-operative instead of competitive. There might be sibling rivalry and good-natured duels, but no outright battles to the death unless someone's turned traitor.

Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;322941In any event, nobles can use their miraculous power to command the minds of humans, by various means.  But when dealing w/ other nobles, it is pretty much "just talking".

If necessary, a Noble can stop a mortal army in its tracks with nothing more than a smile. That's an Aspect miracle just like beating up all those soldiers with your bare hands or guiding a ragtag band of refugees to defeat them through divinely inspired leadership: assign a difficulty level to the action, weigh the benefits and drawbacks, and decide whether that approach is worth it. However, superhuman charm or magical brainwashing alike cannot control the mind of any being that's immune to direct miracles, including (but by no means limited to) Nobles. You can bribe them or blackmail them or threaten their loved ones, you can put a gun to their heads and tell that you'll pull the trigger unless they do what you say, but no amount of miracle points will let you decide that they will do it. That's always up to them. If you wish to persuade someone who genuinely matters in the setting, you'd better come up with a solid argument.

Amber vs. Nobilis isn't "Borges vs. Gaiman"; its Borges vs. Some Pretentious Harry Potter Mary Sue Fanwank.

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