So I know there are a bunch of people who play and like Warhammer. I have a question and I need your help. I'm using something like warpstone in a non-Warhammer game and setting. Recently my players did something I hadn't anticipated. They picked up a chunk of warpstone (using tongs because the stuff looked creepy plus they found it in a locked and sealed, lead lined box. So they took the warpstone and put it inside a very hot kiln. Now I need to figure out what happens as a result.
1. Was this a good idea? Why or why not.
2. What happens when you heat warpstone to a high temperature? Like say hot enough to melt silver (961.8°C)?
3. Would the outcome be any different if the temperature was even hotter, like say molten steel (1510°C)?
4. Is warpstone flammable?
It would be helpful if you indicated whether you answer is based on some Warhammer rules or book source or whether it is just something that sounds cool that you made up?
Thanks
Quote from: Bren;9144961. Was this a good idea? Why or why not.
Messing with Warpstone should never, ever be a good idea.
Quote from: Bren;9144962. What happens when you heat warpstone to a high temperature? Like say hot enough to melt silver (961.8°C)?
A big explosion that summons daemons, horridly mutates all survivors and blights life for thousands of years?
Quote from: Bren;9144963. Would the outcome be any different if the temperature was even hotter, like say molten steel (1510°C)?
Naah.
Quote from: Bren;9144964. Is warpstone flammable?
See above...
Quote from: Bren;914496It would be helpful if you indicated whether you answer is based on some Warhammer rules or book source or whether it is just something that sounds cool that you made up?
Made it all up.
I believe Skaven use powdered warpstone as a type of gunpowder. They also do lines of it like Charlie Sheen just discovering cocaine.
It's solidified raw chaos, when you burn it you roll a d%, create that many custom tables of random effects and then roll on all of them...
Or you could use the rules for Skaven Poison Wind globes if you want something less random (and sadly a bit dull).
When warpstone is heated in a kiln, bad things happens. After all, heat adds energy to matter, increasing entropy. Matter is destabilized any time heat is introduced into a system and destabilizing chaos matter is disastrous. As warpstone is heated, it does not melt in the way that metal does. It flakes and powders, becoming airborne and rising and floating on heated eddies of air unless advanced laboratory techniques are empolyed to prevent such an effect. The tiny warpstone particles are inhaled by any characters within the room or complex where such air is circulating. Use whatever chaos randomization charts or tables appropriate to your campaign, but the effect is ongoing and will continue to produce a random roll for each character every tenth round until the temperature of the warpstone drops below 250 degrees F. God forbid a foolish PC decides to put the warpstone on an anvil and hammer it! This will send microparticles by the millions into the air. Any PC who does not flee the area immediately will be the subject of 101 random chaos mutations by the end of the round. Even for PCs who do attempt to flee in such an event, only the mercy of a liberal GM will allow even a chance that the PCs can avoid tranformation into the darkest and most obscene incarnation of chaos. A purist GM will simply grin and collect character sheets.
Quote from: Bren;9144961. Was this a good idea? Why or why not.
2. What happens when you heat warpstone to a high temperature? Like say hot enough to melt silver (961.8°C)?
3. Would the outcome be any different if the temperature was even hotter, like say molten steel (1510°C)?
4. Is warpstone flammable?
It would be helpful if you indicated whether you answer is based on some Warhammer rules or book source or whether it is just something that sounds cool that you made up?
Thanks
1: Of course its a good idea! See 2-4 below.
2-4: What happens is you get the Shadows of Brimstone setting! Or Awful Green Things from Outer Space. Possibly both.
heh-heh. Unless warpstone has changed much from its pre-Siggy Marine days then if I recall correctly the stuff is made out of warp so it doesnt react in sane ways. In fact it might react differently every time you do something with it. Heat it up. It plays the national anthem. Heat it up. Your dog grows more eyes. Heat it up. It gets hot just to fuck with you.
Or you could treat it like Gamma World-esque radiation. You can use it like plutonium rods to power reactors. With the added benefit of mutation and madness. Or you get super powers. Just to fuck with you.
Things that are known.
1: The stuff can be broken down into smaller chunks and can be carved into shapes.
2: Can it be melted and poured into shapes? Seems so. Or at least it can be powdered and added into metals. Odds are it would actually warp the mold so no two swords forged came out the same. Or maybe some do come out the same. Just to fuck with you!
3: The stuff is edible. Least to skaven. And it breaks down into raw chaos power. So dosing a chunk with hydrochloric acid would probably be a bad idea. Unless you are a skaven. Then its a good-good idea!
4: Yes. Thats right. Just to fuck with you!
Great ideas! Please keep them coming. I’ll create a tally.
Explosion 2
Mutation 4
Demon Summoning 1
Major Catastrophe 2
Edible and Addictive 2
Flammable 1
Random, no really random 1
Not that it necessarily matters, but the PC did this to try to destroy something he saw as demonic and to try to make it unavailable to the bad guys. I'm getting the impression that this may not work out exactly as he had hoped.
Quote from: The Butcher;914510Messing with Warpstone should never, ever be a good idea.
I'm getting that impression. :D
Quote from: jadrax;914513It's solidified raw chaos, when you burn it you roll a d%, create that many custom tables of random effects and then roll on all of them...
Is this supported by sources or just a fiendishly clever idea? I don’t have Warhammer, but I guess I could use the Chaos Feature Table from Runequest 2.
QuoteOr you could use the rules for Skaven Poison Wind globes if you want something less random (and sadly a bit dull).
Where would I find those rules?
Quote from: Ghost;914517When warpstone is heated in a kiln, bad things happens. After all, heat adds energy to matter, increasing entropy. Matter is destabilized any time heat is introduced into a system and destabilizing chaos matter is disastrous.
The idea that adding heat increases entropy is interesting and it nicely uses a mix of real physics and magical logic. I like that.
And because I am a pedant, this sounds like your own extrapolation based on the canon explanation for warpstone, is that correct?
Quote from: Omega;9145181: Of course its a good idea! See 2-4 below.
I’m not sure that “good idea” means what you think it means. Certainly from the PC’s perspective that isn’t a good idea. :D
QuoteShadows of Brimstone setting!
What’s that? It sounds…interesting.
Quoteheh-heh. Unless warpstone has changed much from its pre-Siggy Marine days then if I recall correctly the stuff is made out of warp so it doesnt react in sane ways. In fact it might react differently every time you do something with it. Heat it up. It plays the national anthem. Heat it up. Your dog grows more eyes. Heat it up. It gets hot just to fuck with you.
Randomly variable reactions is an interesting idea. It certainly sounds creative and it definitely has the advantage of variety.
QuoteThings that are known.
]I greatly appreciate the “Things that are known.” Though the answer to #4 Sound like an extrapolation.
Quote3: The stuff is edible. Least to skaven. And it breaks down into raw chaos power. So dosing a chunk with hydrochloric acid would probably be a bad idea. Unless you are a skaven. Then its a good-good idea!
I got that joke. It’s nice to know that acid reacts with warpstone. The villainous alchemist was using an acid on small shards to distill or melt warpstone as part of his nefarious plan to create a famine by letting loose a horde of giant rats. The rats are the size of dogs. They are incredibly fierce and aggressive. And they have a fantastically sped up metabolism that causes them to need to eat…a lot. The rats in the breeding pens and warren have fed grain to ensure they have a taste for it. But like normal rats they will eat all sorts of things…or people.
Quote from: The Butcher;914510Made it all up.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;914511I believe Skaven use powdered warpstone as a type of gunpowder. They also do lines of it like Charlie Sheen just discovering cocaine.
Thanks all. I like knowing the source and who to credit.
Quote from: Graeme DavisWarpstone is the raw stuff of Chaos - a form of matter dragged through into this world from another dimension by the violent birth of Chaos. It is a powerful source of magic, and is greatly sought after by all followers of Chaos.
A single piece of raw Warpstone is usually an irregularly-shaped lump about the size of a man's fist. It emits an intense black light, which seems to swallow light from its immediate vicinity, creating a small patch of darkness around it. In this raw form, Warpstone is very dangerous to all creatures, and prolonged exposure can cause severe mutation or death. The Skaven, and many of the other races of Chaos, were created by exposure to raw Warpstone, as natural creatures were twisted by its magical emanations and developed mutations which have been handed down through the generations.
Any creature exposed to raw Warpstone (ie within 10 yards of an unshielded source) for a period of a day or more has a 5% chance of developing one mutation, which is rolled on the Personal Chaos Attributes table in Slaves to Darkness. Roll at the end of each day of exposure. Skaven Grey Seers have only a 1% chance of being affected, since their constant exposure to raw Warpstone has given them a limited resistance to its effects.
Warpstone can only be used in a controlled way once it has been refined. This is a difficult process, and one which only the Skaven Grey Seers have the natural ability perform, actually gaining magical energy by doing so. Refined Warpstone is a grey powder, quite unlike the original matter. It has has no warping effects unless it is eaten or otherwise taken into the body, in which case there is a 1% chance of gaining a Chaos mutation every time it is consumed. Many Skaven bear the results of this unholy diet. Grey Seers may consume refined Warpstone without risk of further mutation because of their special resilience.
This is part of an article (http://www.snotling.org/whfrp/Magick/Warpstone.txt) from Graeme Davis, a Game Workshop guy around the time of WFRP1.
Warpstone has changed a lot with different versions of the Wargame, mainly in fluff text of the Skaven Army Books or in the information about the skirmish game Mordheim. The Realms of Chaos books might have more information; Graeme mentions the first one Slaves to Darkness in the article.
Basically, think of Warpstone as magically radioactive. A large chunk of it will affect someone in close proximity over time, and in a place unguarded, it will seep into the earth and stone, slowly making an area unclean, depending on the size of it (an example of this is Castle Wittgenstein in the adventure Death on the Reik).
So now my opinion. Heating the Warpstone drastically should intensify it's effects, adding poisonous mutating fumes to the normal radiation. If the players heat it too rapidly or do a heating/cooling process to it, it may explode. Also, not every chunk of Warpstone will be alike, an odd chunk may, when heated, display the properties of Magnesium, Uranium, anything really. As unrefined raw Chaos, it's the source of all magic and anything is possible, which is why in the Warhammer World, Alchemists, Wizards, Skaven, Chaos worshippers all will do nearly anything to get some.
I am pretty sure that in one iteration of the Skaven army book the Plague Censer bearers carried flails with halucinogenic fumes from burning Warpstone.
It certainly is used in creating nasty mutants. Skaven use it as part of gun powder and make semi-armour piercing bullets out of the stuff. As well as warp-lightning projectors, warpfire throwers, and other nasty magi-tech gadgets, most of which have at least as great a chance of doing harm to the user as they do to the target...
That article I linked to from Graeme Davis lists some of the weapons, if you wanted to you could have improper heating of warpstone by someone without any alchemical knowledge to possibly duplicate the effects of a Warpstone Grenade, Warpfire, Plague Censer fumes, Poisoned Wind or exploding with fragments hitting like an Assassin's Weapon.
Possibly all of them simultaneously, especially if the player heats it up, then hits it with intent to destroy it.
Quote from: Bren;914520Is this supported by sources or just a fiendishly clever idea? I don’t have Warhammer, but I guess I could use the Chaos Feature Table from Runequest 2.
Where would I find those rules?
I made up the d100 tables idea, (well unless it is in the Citadel Journal, which was often mental).
If your basing it on 2nd Ed, children of the Horned Rat. But basically its a cloud of poison gas that floats about poisoning people (must make a -10% or take a Strength 4 hit ignoring Armour and Toughness Bonus). I think there was some errata covering long term effects, but that might only have been being shot by Warpstone Ammo rather than breathing in gas. TBH, I always fleet the treatment of Warpstone in 2nd edition was a bit lacking.
If your looking to adept 1st ed, @CRKrueger's post above looks good. I thought there was also some stuff on Warpstone in Realms of Chaos but I can't find it.
Quote from: Bren;914520What’s that? It sounds…interesting.
Shadows of Brimstone is a co-op Western Horror dungeoncrawler.
QuoteThere was a town, if you could call it that, named Brimstone; a small railway stop on the edge of the hottest deserts in the southwest territory. Barely a speck, it didn’t even show up on most maps… That is, until they found the Dark Stone.
Barely a speck, it didn’t even show up on most maps.
Digging in the hills, an old prospector came across a strange nugget he had never seen before, a black rock, part way between a crystal and a metal ore. But there was something special about that rock, it had a glow you could only see out of the corner of yer eye and was warm to the touch. It had properties folks said were magik, and of course, that caused a stir. Within days they found more of it buried in the earth, and stories started to spread. Business men and scholars started offering top dollar for even the smallest shard of the stuff, and that opened the floodgates.
It was a gold rush, but not for gold; for the black rock… The Dark Stone. People came from all over to try and make their fortune, and Brimstone boomed over night. They dug mines in every scrap of land they could get a hold of. Round the clock they worked, digging deeper and deeper into the earth, bringing up cartloads full of the rock and sending it back to town to be stockpiled and sold to the highest bidder.
What they didn’t know, what nobody knew, was that the energy in the Dark Stone resonated with itself. As they collected more and more of the rocks all in one place, it started to cascade, until… It exploded. In a flash, the town was consumed and a shockwave rolled out across the desert, burning the trees and tainting the land
Reality itself was being ripped apart, and the people along with it. Dark portals to other worlds started tearing open across the countryside, pulling people in and unleashing all manner of demons and creatures into our world. Wherever there was Dark Stone these gateways would appear; some only flickering open for an instant, others opened and stayed that way.
Dark portals to other worlds started tearing open across the countryside, pulling people in and unleashing all manner of demons and creatures into our world.
That was 6 months ago. Since then, demonic creatures of all kinds have been pouring out of the mines, and the scorched hell on earth that is…was Brimstone. The government denies its existence, and anyone sane steers clear of the whole area, but plenty of folks find they can’t help but be drawn in, whether it’s to try and help somehow or just to find a fortune of their own, doesn’t matter. Everyone wants to be a hero. Damn fools. No one ever escapes… the Shadows of Brimstone.
Its used in weapons and items and it has a mutating effect.
Quote from: CRKrueger;914521This is part of an article (http://www.snotling.org/whfrp/Magick/Warpstone.txt) from Graeme Davis, a Game Workshop guy around the time of WFRP1.
Very helpful. Thanks!
Currently I'm working on a random table using some of the effects mentioned.
To that end, can anyone briefly explain what a WP test is and what the determines likelihood of success and failure. I want to get a sense of risk. associated with this statement by Graeme Davis.
QuoteWarpflame
Any creature which survives an attack by the firethrower must make an immediate WP test; if the test is failed, the victim's body bursts into a gout of mutations, with new limbs, snakes, antennae and other unnatural excresences sprouting from its twisting, melting body.
Quote from: CRKrueger;914544Possibly all of them simultaneously, especially if the player heats it up, then hits it with intent to destroy it.
His action wasn't quite that risky. He picked it up with tongs and put it in the already hot kiln then dove aside and moved farther away. Not proper nuclear/chem./bio hazard protocol, but a bit better than standing there and whacking it a few times with a big hammer.
Quote from: jadrax;914546I made up the d100 tables idea...
Then the Runequest Chaos Features table sounds like an acceptable method. [/QUOTE]
Quote from: Omega;914547Shadows of Brimstone is a co-op Western Horror dungeoncrawler.
Thanks for the quote. Thankfully whatever that strange hunk of stone and its shards are in the trunk, there isn't much of the stuff...that they know of.
WP is a Willpower Test. Power for RQ.
Quote from: CRKrueger;914575WP is a Willpower Test. Power for RQ.
More help please.
1. In RQ that would be an opposed roll. So we would need to know what the opposing POW is to know what the probability. What's a reasonable opposing POW or how would one determine that?
2. In Call of Cthulhu it would be a luck roll (POW x N) where N is a number usually between 1 and 5 (low multiplier = difficult, higher multiplier = easier). What's a reasonable multiplier or how would one set one?
Mordheim rulebook is available online for free (I'm pretty sure GW has made it ok). That has tons of info on warpstone.
Real Chaos bangers snort warpstone off courtesans.
:)
So here's a few simple tables I came up with based on the information you all kindly provided.
What happens if you heat up warpstone?
Roll 1d6 for Effect
1. Heat fractures the warpstone, no effect except, risk of long term exposure to raw warpstone.
2. As above, plus releases cloud of gas roll 1d6 for effect:
1. Pain but no long term effect;
2. Pain but no long term effect;
3. Exposure to poison;
4. Withering or aging;
5. Paranoid, berserk rage.
6. Extremely rapid metabolism then death.
3. As #1, plus warpstone dust released with 1% chance per dose of random mutation.
4. As #3 plus burned semi-refined warpstone released; chance to contract rapid plague.
5. As #1 plus kiln explodes in burst of warpflame causing horrible burns exposure may turn victim into a living, bubbling pile of caustic slime.
6. Warpstone hurls 2d6 random bolts of destructive black lightning each equivalent in strength to an exploding keg of gunpowder.
Random Mutations: roll on the Chaotic Features table from Runequest 2 or roll 1d6 and use the table below.
1. Daemon Soul
2. Great Claw
3. Cloven Hooves
4. Scorpion Tail
5. Extra Arm
6. Hideous
Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Of course heating it by itself it does nothing. But if you manage to split the very tiniest possible bit of Warpstone (or as the dwarven philosophers called, it, "atom") it will explode with unparalleled might. Or so the story goes, because the last dwarf to try it, Oppenheimer, never came back.
Jokes aside (although I've always had a soft spot for treating it as magical Uranium, especially what with Skaventech being so much advanced than everyone else's, if unstable), grab yourself Realms of Darkness/Slaves of Darkness. They have a huge mutation table based on d1000.
Also - warpstone itself is magically "radioactive", and can cause damage/mutation just from contact or prolonged exposure to it. Another important nuance of it is that it, at least in WFRP, it greatly heightens magical abilities (Skaven Grey Seers consume it to this effect, though it also causes them paranoia as their brains dissolve due to the superdrug addiction, not that Skaven need additional paranoia).
Quote from: Rincewind1;914945...grab yourself Realms of Darkness/Slaves of Darkness. They have a huge mutation table based on d1000.
1000 choices. :eek:
But as I'm not planning on turning my game into Warhammer Fantasy I expect and hope I won't need quite that many mutation choices.
Here it is, more or less, in it's unholy glory:
http://wfrp1e.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos_Attributes
Quote from: Rincewind1;914945...grab yourself Realms of Darkness/Slaves of Darkness. They have a huge mutation table based on d1000.
After I posted, I decided to see if maybe I already had one of those. I accumulate a lot of free game aids, far more than I can keep track of mentally. Sometimes I hardly look at them at all. Anyway, I just noticed I have a PDF of
CONSPIRACY: A 1st edition WFRP Scenario by Alfred Nuñez Jr., which has this:
QuoteAppendix Two- Mutation Table
These can be found in The Enemy Within, among other sources. For each mutation, first roll a
d100 to determine the mutation for the character. Some mutations require an additional roll to
further define the mutation (for example bestial face).
Between that and Chaos effects from Runequest, I think I have way more than enough mutations for my setting.
Quote from: Rincewind1;914950Here it is, more or less, in it's unholy glory:
http://wfrp1e.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos_Attributes
Now I am way over prepared. :)
And of course I have a new table...of tables.
D6 Which Table to Use1-2 Use d100 Mutation Table
3-4 Use d1000 Chaos Attribute Table
5 Use Runequest 2 Chaotic Features Table
6 Roll twice or use D6 Mutation Table (see below)
Perhaps you could melt the warpstone to cast something out of chaotic obsidian. Then you could polish it into mirrors or lenses, knap it into a dagger, or collect edges for a macuahuitl.
It might be ... inadvisable ... to be the smelter, alchemist, or lapidary involved.
Quote from: Baron Opal;914964It might be ... inadvisable ... to be the smelter, alchemist, or lapidary involved.
Or to be in the same time zone of the person who is.
Quote from: Baron Opal;914964Perhaps you could melt the warpstone to cast something out of chaotic obsidian. Then you could polish it into mirrors or lenses, knap it into a dagger, or collect edges for a macuahuitl.
It might be ... inadvisable ... to be the smelter, alchemist, or lapidary involved.
Might explain John Dee's mirror.
I say in addition to demon summoning, mutations, and/or explosions, the original stone breaks into pieces, and you end up with more 'stone then you started with.
Quote from: remial;915020I say in addition to demon summoning, mutations, and/or explosions, the original stone breaks into pieces, and you end up with more 'stone then you started with.
More stone that when you started...hmmm
...that's kind of interesting, and definitely chaotically weird...
...maybe all warpstone is just something flaked off one single piece that came from somewhere else.
:cool:
Quote from: Bren;915039...that's kind of interesting, and definitely chaotically weird...
That's because warpstone, not being real matter, is free from conservation laws. So the Banach-Tarski paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach–Tarski_paradox) is in full effect.
Quote from: Bren;915039...maybe all warpstone is just something flaked off one single piece that came from somewhere else.
Well, the smaller, erratic moon Morrslieb may or may not be a big chunk of warpstone, so...
More than you started with? Nice! Why be a "Killer GM", when "Give 'em Enough Rope..." -GMing is so much more satisfying :D
Quote from: Bren;914496So I know there are a bunch of people who play and like Warhammer. I have a question and I need your help. I'm using something like warpstone in a non-Warhammer game and setting. Recently my players did something I hadn't anticipated. They picked up a chunk of warpstone (using tongs because the stuff looked creepy plus they found it in a locked and sealed, lead lined box. So they took the warpstone and put it inside a very hot kiln. Now I need to figure out what happens as a result.
The warpstone can be crafted and made into a powerful magical item.
Of course, this only works once. After the first attempt, the warpstone will cause mutations or worse, but the knowledge of being able to craft strong easy magical items would spread like wildfire.
Quote from: The Butcher;915044That's because warpstone, not being real matter, is free from conservation laws. So the Banach-Tarski paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach–Tarski_paradox) is in full effect.
Me, I'd rather turn a coffee cup into a donut.
If you heat up warpstone it produces goblin babies.
There. Two mysteries solved. :eek:
You fucking heretic. You drift from the light of the God-Emperor for just thinking about this shit.
So naturally, I'll say- I remember back when I was a fan of WH Fantasy, the Skaven had some shooty flame template gun that blasted Warpstone stuff. I think the little model had some stuff on it like pressure and temperature gauges. I think it turns into a nasty heretical sludge.
Dont have my Skaven book handy but I believe the flamers were throwing some sort of flammable concoction mixed with powdered warpstone. Like adding powdered plutonium to napalm. Kinda overkill. But skaven do love-love them some overkill.
I don't like muting my players. But I quite like the set up.
If it's solidified chaos, then there is no reason it has to do anything. I have something like that in a home brew setting. I don't think heat would make it do anything, but hit it with magic and it becomes unstable. Matter starts disassociating from its self.
If it burns it burns down the block. If it exploded it levels half the city. It it doesn't react at all it stays cool to the touch.
It could start absorbing all energy. It could grow, it could open a portal, it could hatch a deamon, or dragon, or a perfect being.
It could Speak in the mind of the players, or one player.
I would play it differently than 'radio active magic gunpowder'. But that's just me.
Quote from: Headless;915594I would play it differently than 'radio active magic gunpowder'. But that's just me.
Didnt bother to read the other posts did you?
Quote from: Omega;915596Didnt bother to read the other posts did you?
Sure did. They all sounded like 'radio active magic gunpower.' To me. Which as I said seamed a waste.
Quote from: Crüesader;915472You fucking heretic. You drift from the light of the God-Emperor for just thinking about this shit.
Uh oh, you said the magic word...
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