Quote from: Lurkndog on July 16, 2022, 04:58:51 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.

By 1998, WEG had largely fizzled out. The shoe thing killed them, but they were already slowing down before that. I'd guess their game line peaked in the early-to-mid-90s.

Don't get me wrong, their work was admirable, and WEG Star Wars is one of the best licensed RPGs of all time. As keepers of the flame, they were maybe the best to ever do it. But commercially, they never quite got to the point that, say, Call of Cthulhu did.

I'll agree to disagree here. Mainly because I've never seen as many people play Call of Cthulhu as I did WEG Star Wars back in the 90's.

 I didnt play it much, but I did notice around the early 90's Rifts had a lot of shelf space and seemed to be marketing pretty heavily in comic book ads.   How popular was it then?  It seemed to be around the time D&D 2e was hitting a plateau, and I know I saw several games of rifts around the Ship around that time. 

Let's not forget how in Japan Call of Cthulhu already killed D&D.

A representative for Call of Cthulhu studio Chaosium told Dicebreaker that the Japanese-language release of the RPG doesn't just outsell any other language, it sells more copies than all of the game's other languages combined - English included.

I always wondered if it was by chance (CoC somehow became popular first and kept its lead) or if it is a cultural thing. If the latter, I wonder what the specific cultural differences are. True, many facets of Japanese culture make it unique, but saying "Japanese just love tentacles in their horror" is reductive (having studied Asian horror before Ring/Ringu made it popular, I can safely say how tentacles are part of that subgenre that we could call "horrific porn"). Classics like Ju-On, Dark Water, The Eye, A Tale of Two Sisters, Kairo and Shutter not only don't have a single tentacle in sight but also couldn't be turned in a CoC scenario at all.

Quote from: Reckall on July 17, 2022, 07:41:10 AM
I always wondered if it was by chance (CoC somehow became popular first and kept its lead) or if it is a cultural thing. If the latter, I wonder what the specific cultural differences are.

Exploring fantasies of shooting and blowing up horrible monsters while going insane?  Gain power from academic studies? 

Orcs have pig faces, Cthulhu has a squid face.  Maybe there's a "fight monsters who look like food" cultural thing shared between RPGs?

  My off the cuff thoughts regarding COC in Japan...How many fantasy RPGs are in Japan?  I wonder if D&D has to share market with some other popular standard fantasy games and COC is sort of the only game in town in its particular (popular) genre.   I say this because I see a lot of Japanese pop culture where they really seem into western medieval fantasy and its tropes (in much the same way people in the west get a little enamored with a katana) and it makes me think a medieval fantasy game has to be quite popular, but it could be that market is divided by other games in there with D&D. 

Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2022, 08:14:59 AM
  My off the cuff thoughts regarding COC in Japan...How many fantasy RPGs are in Japan?  I wonder if D&D has to share market with some other popular standard fantasy games and COC is sort of the only game in town in its particular (popular) genre.   I say this because I see a lot of Japanese pop culture where they really seem into western medieval fantasy and its tropes (in much the same way people in the west get a little enamored with a katana) and it makes me think a medieval fantasy game has to be quite popular, but it could be that market is divided by other games in there with D&D.

Just my 0.02 cents worth here, but D&D was pretty well represented in Japan with Basic D&D and its manga/anime adaptation of the author's D&D campaign in Record of Lodoss War. Record of Lodoss War had a stylistic effect on every bit of media in those genres that came after it.

Similarly, there was a Japanese version of Classic Traveller and Megatraveller published by Hobby Japan that were able to take root and borrow stylistically from Legend of the Galactic Heroes and Space Battleship Yamato. Neither ever gained the popularity of D&D or CoC over in Japan, but they were significant players in that region for their time.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2022, 06:31:20 AM
I didnt play it much, but I did notice around the early 90's Rifts had a lot of shelf space and seemed to be marketing pretty heavily in comic book ads.   How popular was it then?  It seemed to be around the time D&D 2e was hitting a plateau, and I know I saw several games of rifts around the Ship around that time.

RIFTS and other Palladium RPGs where some of the few non-D&D RPGs I encountered in the 90s and they were pretty popular back then at least where I live. The first non-D&D RPG I ever played was Robotech, followed by RIFTs.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 17, 2022, 08:14:59 AM
  My off the cuff thoughts regarding COC in Japan...How many fantasy RPGs are in Japan?  I wonder if D&D has to share market with some other popular standard fantasy games and COC is sort of the only game in town in its particular (popular) genre.   I say this because I see a lot of Japanese pop culture where they really seem into western medieval fantasy and its tropes (in much the same way people in the west get a little enamored with a katana) and it makes me think a medieval fantasy game has to be quite popular, but it could be that market is divided by other games in there with D&D.

From what I understand the most popular RPG in Japan is Sword World, which is a Japanese fantasy RPG. CoC is actually the most popular non-Japanese RPG in Japan, but some Japanese RPGs are still more popular than it.

Quote from: Reckall on July 17, 2022, 07:41:10 AM
Let's not forget how in Japan Call of Cthulhu already killed D&D.

A representative for Call of Cthulhu studio Chaosium told Dicebreaker that the Japanese-language release of the RPG doesn't just outsell any other language, it sells more copies than all of the game's other languages combined - English included.

I always wondered if it was by chance (CoC somehow became popular first and kept its lead) or if it is a cultural thing. If the latter, I wonder what the specific cultural differences are. True, many facets of Japanese culture make it unique, but saying "Japanese just love tentacles in their horror" is reductive (having studied Asian horror before Ring/Ringu made it popular, I can safely say how tentacles are part of that subgenre that we could call "horrific porn"). Classics like Ju-On, Dark Water, The Eye, A Tale of Two Sisters, Kairo and Shutter not only don't have a single tentacle in sight but also couldn't be turned in a CoC scenario at all.

Yeah, was gonna mention that, but it seems the conversation is mostly around the global market. I know that there are other regions where D&D is not the most popular game. As you mentioned, CoC in Japan, and Die Schwarze Auge in Germany. However, even in this markets it looks like D&D is still a significant player. It's not like the US where basically all the other competitors combined cannot match D&D's market share.

For a while, MtG was the D&D killer. Perhaps it still is.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 17, 2022, 06:45:56 PM
For a while, MtG was the D&D killer. Perhaps it still is.

If we're going by other games, I wonder how World of Warcaft (or Pokemon, or Yu-Gi-Oh) was selling in comparison?

Well not that I care, since I don't buy DnD products...

IF there was going to be a "DnD Killer" (which I don't think DnD will ever die as a brand or game) - but when 6e drops and they go more Woke(tm), it might create another 4e event where another system overtakes them.

Unlikely but you never know.

But again, this is a case of WotC being the DnD-Killer. The brand is the sky under which all RPG's are played. Just like if for some reason WotC folded, and Hasbro sold the IP off to Free League, and they slapped the DnD banner on their house system and ditched d20... the sheer brand-momentum would pull a massive portion of the gaming populace with it. I actually think that would be good for the hobby - but that's all fantasy talk.

I say this as I watch the American Comics industry implode... one can only hope.

Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2022, 09:57:03 AM

I say this as I watch the American Comics industry implode... one can only hope.

Well, if we are looking at comics as an example, it does give some hope since we had that one independent creator, young rippa, getting over 2 million dollars in one week for the pre-order of his new comic line.

If the rpg industry really does keep antagonizing its customer base, there is a legitimate chance that someone will blow them out of the water.

Quote from: Hzilong on July 18, 2022, 03:36:00 PM

Quote from: tenbones on July 18, 2022, 09:57:03 AM

I say this as I watch the American Comics industry implode... one can only hope.

Well, if we are looking at comics as an example, it does give some hope since we had that one independent creator, young rippa, getting over 2 million dollars in one week for the pre-order of his new comic line.

If the rpg industry really does keep antagonizing its customer base, there is a legitimate chance that someone will blow them out of the water.

Rippa actually was who I was thinking of when I posted. *WE* in the gaming industry, need to be ready to do likewise. The OBS situation should be a wakeup call. 6e when it drops like a post-digested wet sausage on us and goes south, should be what we prepare for.

Marvel/DC have killed themselves. Rippa didn't kill them. He executed because the need was there. He was ready. We need to be like him.