Wizards of the Coast is the D&D killer.

Quote from: Wrath of God on July 13, 2022, 06:38:56 PM

QuoteHowever, long ago, in the final days of TSR, WEG and their incredible d6 Star Wars system was about to usurp D&D from its throne for good when a fucking ex-football player had his imported Italian loafers used against him as evidence in a murder trial. Thus fate intervened and we are where we are now.

Who was this guy and how on earth it influenced SWd6?

This is one of my favorite RPG stories......

When WEG still had its original owners and had the license for Star Wars, it was a sub-division of the Bucci Retail Group. Now Bucci hadn't been doing so well and had started some creative accounting with WEG to stay afloat. Then OJ Simpson went to trial and a piece of evidence used were a pair of imported Italian loafers, imported by Bucci. With that, the bottom fell out of the market for Bucci imports because nobody wanted shoes associated with a murder trial that was all over the news. Bucci filed for bankruptcy, and since they were the parent company for WEG - WEG got liquidated as well. All this happened around 1998.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 09:44:00 AM
This is one of my favorite RPG stories......

When WEG still had its original owners and had the license for Star Wars, it was a sub-division of the Bucci Retail Group. Now Bucci hadn't been doing so well and had started some creative accounting with WEG to stay afloat. Then OJ Simpson went to trial and a piece of evidence used were a pair of imported Italian loafers, imported by Bucci. With that, the bottom fell out of the market for Bucci imports because nobody wanted shoes associated with a murder trial that was all over the news. Bucci filed for bankruptcy, and since they were the parent company for WEG - WEG got liquidated as well. All this happened around 1998.

   I knew there was a shoe connection to the Fall of WEG, but I wasn't aware of the details. Thanks for the information!

  Speculation: If WEG had hung on just a little longer, they could probably have leveraged the Episode One hype to keep d6 SW a success in the market. With that, and their affinity for licensing, could they possibly have snagged the LotR film license and emerged as a major competitor in the RPG space to WotC?

Much as I loved WEG and the D6 system, I don't think it was ever going to be a "D&D Killer."

WEG D6 simply didn't do fantasy all that well. There was a D6 Fantasy book, I own it, it was basically not playable. The magic system had been cut-and-pasted in from, I think, Masterbook, and it was a total non-starter. Did not fit the style and feel of D6, and really just didn't work. The combat system didn't do armored knight combat all that well, and didn't do lightly armored or unarmored characters at all. We tried, but it failed.

I think the best case for WEG would have been to become a "default system" for sci fi and/or modern adventure like D&D is for fantasy.

Quote from: Lurkndog on July 14, 2022, 12:27:15 PM
Much as I loved WEG and the D6 system, I don't think it was ever going to be a "D&D Killer."

WEG D6 simply didn't do fantasy all that well. There was a D6 Fantasy book, I own it, it was basically not playable. The magic system had been cut-and-pasted in from, I think, Masterbook, and it was a total non-starter. Did not fit the style and feel of D6, and really just didn't work. The combat system didn't do armored knight combat all that well, and didn't do lightly armored or unarmored characters at all. We tried, but it failed.

I think the best case for WEG would have been to become a "default system" for sci fi and/or modern adventure like D&D is for fantasy.

I almost agree with you here, but I think we are talking past each other.

I don't think that WEG d6 does fantasy very well either, but I think that WEG Star Wars was a D&D killer based upon franchise strength. Star Wars has a much larger franchise and fan base than D&D even back in 1998, if not ever. WotC saw this and tried to co-opt it with d20 Star Wars, but didn't quite make it because WEG d6 was the superior game system for emulating the kind of cinematic science fantasy that Star Wars is.

Quote from: thornad on July 02, 2022, 12:40:02 PM
What tissue is closest to being a "Kleenex killer"?

Exactly.  Band aids, Cokes, Kleenex.  Some brands become synonymous with the product.  D&D is synonymous with table top RPGs.  Now, can Pepsi outsell Coke some times or in some regions?  Sure!  But it'll never kill Coke anymore than the RPG flavor of the week will kill D&D.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
I almost agree with you here, but I think we are talking past each other.

I don't think that WEG d6 does fantasy very well either, but I think that WEG Star Wars was a D&D killer based upon franchise strength. Star Wars has a much larger franchise and fan base than D&D even back in 1998, if not ever. WotC saw this and tried to co-opt it with d20 Star Wars, but didn't quite make it because WEG d6 was the superior game system for emulating the kind of cinematic science fantasy that Star Wars is.

The problem with this argument is that WEG D6's heyday came during a historic ebb in the Star Wars franchise. In 1987, when the game debuted, the original trilogy had ended, and the franchise was mostly dormant. Even the Star Wars merch machine was just coasting along, with the action figure line having ended in 1985. The novels consisted of the movie novelizations, Splinter of the Mind's eye, and Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy. Even the comic books had ceased publication.

That lull in the franchise is probably what allowed WEG to be able to afford the license in the first place.

I remember seeing a flyer for the game plastered on someone's dorm room door, and I thought "well, that's kind of neat that they're trying to bring it back." Because at that point, Star Wars was something that was firmly in the past.

Quote from: Lurkndog on July 15, 2022, 01:04:45 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 01:07:44 PM
I almost agree with you here, but I think we are talking past each other.

I don't think that WEG d6 does fantasy very well either, but I think that WEG Star Wars was a D&D killer based upon franchise strength. Star Wars has a much larger franchise and fan base than D&D even back in 1998, if not ever. WotC saw this and tried to co-opt it with d20 Star Wars, but didn't quite make it because WEG d6 was the superior game system for emulating the kind of cinematic science fantasy that Star Wars is.

The problem with this argument is that WEG D6's heyday came during a historic ebb in the Star Wars franchise. In 1987, when the game debuted, the original trilogy had ended, and the franchise was mostly dormant. Even the Star Wars merch machine was just coasting along, with the action figure line having ended in 1985. The novels consisted of the movie novelizations, Splinter of the Mind's eye, and Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy. Even the comic books had ceased publication.

That lull in the franchise is probably what allowed WEG to be able to afford the license in the first place.

I remember seeing a flyer for the game plastered on someone's dorm room door, and I thought "well, that's kind of neat that they're trying to bring it back." Because at that point, Star Wars was something that was firmly in the past.

I agree. The WEG game though, was the single biggest influence on the Star Wars franchise when it came back to prominence. Between 1985 and 1998, WEG Star Wars was the primary creative force filling in the gaps of the setting for the Star Wars franchise. When authors wanted background material for their books, they were given copies of the Star Wars RPG by WEG - including Timothy Zahn.

Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 14, 2022, 09:44:00 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on July 13, 2022, 06:38:56 PM

QuoteHowever, long ago, in the final days of TSR, WEG and their incredible d6 Star Wars system was about to usurp D&D from its throne for good when a fucking ex-football player had his imported Italian loafers used against him as evidence in a murder trial. Thus fate intervened and we are where we are now.

Who was this guy and how on earth it influenced SWd6?

This is one of my favorite RPG stories......

When WEG still had its original owners and had the license for Star Wars, it was a sub-division of the Bucci Retail Group. Now Bucci hadn't been doing so well and had started some creative accounting with WEG to stay afloat. Then OJ Simpson went to trial and a piece of evidence used were a pair of imported Italian loafers, imported by Bucci. With that, the bottom fell out of the market for Bucci imports because nobody wanted shoes associated with a murder trial that was all over the news. Bucci filed for bankruptcy, and since they were the parent company for WEG - WEG got liquidated as well. All this happened around 1998.

I wonder if, were thatt to have happened in 2022, the murder couldn't have been spun to increase the appeal of the shoes.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 14, 2022, 12:10:13 PM
  Speculation: If WEG had hung on just a little longer, they could probably have leveraged the Episode One hype to keep d6 SW a success in the market.

They could have done an Episode One sourcebook and coast from there. But sometimes things turn out that way, like when I.C.E. lost the rights to Lord of the Rings exactly as Peter Jackson's trilogy was coming out.

Interestingly, the last thing Fantasy Flight Games did before ditching their Star Wars RPG was to republish the d6 version slipcased with the first sourcebook in a very good edition (if you are creative you find all you need in these two books). I bought it immediately and it sold out very quickly. I always wondered if someone at FFG just wanted to spit on someone else's face.

Quote from: Reckall on July 15, 2022, 05:46:56 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 14, 2022, 12:10:13 PM
  Speculation: If WEG had hung on just a little longer, they could probably have leveraged the Episode One hype to keep d6 SW a success in the market.

They could have done an Episode One sourcebook and coast from there. But sometimes things turn out that way, like when I.C.E. lost the rights to Lord of the Rings exactly as Peter Jackson's trilogy was coming out.

Interestingly, the last thing Fantasy Flight Games did before ditching their Star Wars RPG was to republish the d6 version slipcased with the first sourcebook in a very good edition (if you are creative you find all you need in these two books). I bought it immediately and it sold out very quickly. I always wondered if someone at FFG just wanted to spit on someone else's face.

ICE losing that license to Middle Earth (partially due to impending bankruptcy IIRC) was super depressing for us at the time because we had a thriving MERP campaign going and were stoked for the upcoming films.  Who knows what might have happened with that line if it had continued? 

The Decipher Middle Earth game was too connected to the movies so the feel was a bit off, at least for me.  And I didn't care for Cubicle Seven's take, nor do I like the Free League 2nd edition of The One Ring.  Both games look good and they have a decent sense of the feel of Middle Earth.  But they try to replicate the books too much and new version of TOR in particular feels like a board game masquerading as an RPG to me.  75% of the mechanics are basically unnecessary and could be replaced by actual roleplaying, but they opt for roll playing everything, even how the characters "feel" on a journey.  I want to game in Middle Earth, not simply relive the books.  Luckily, there is Against the Darkmaster so we're going try using that for Middle Earth gaming.

Savage Worlds checks off all of the necessary boxes. Pinnacle put a few more black and brown people in their books, but as far as I can tell they don't pop off on social media. They offer medieval fantasy without the pronoun garbage, and also without having to suffer through klunky, kludgy d20 mechanics from the 1980s. The system is easy for a new player to learn, which allows it to compete head-to-head against 5E, but it's customizable enough to keep veterans interested, which is one of the big flaws of 5E. As an added bonus, you can easily play a lot of other genres besides medieval fantasy. It's easy to modify and make your own stuff. With the release of Savage Pathfinder, they're in a similar position that Pathfinder itself was in back in 2010. Pathfinder is a pretty big name in TTRPG circles, which just got Savage Worlds a lot of attention. A lot of people checked the game out and liked what they saw.

If the King is going to lose his crown, it will be to Savage Worlds. But that probably isn't what will happen.

WotC using Satine Phoenix as their face of diversity for several years probably had a similar pull with women that White Wolf's urban fantasy vampire/werewolf romance had in the 90s. A former sex worker with kool-aid hair is just so bold and unapologetically feminist that a subset of Millennial and Gen Z women simply can't resist. It was so stunning and brave. Realistically, that's going to keep D&D afloat while the ax falls on the woke social justice movement. WotC will run out of rainbow paint in a few years and course correct. D&D isn't going anywhere.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
I agree. The WEG game though, was the single biggest influence on the Star Wars franchise when it came back to prominence. Between 1985 and 1998, WEG Star Wars was the primary creative force filling in the gaps of the setting for the Star Wars franchise. When authors wanted background material for their books, they were given copies of the Star Wars RPG by WEG - including Timothy Zahn.

Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.

Hindsight is 20/20. West End Games Star Wars never had a real chance of dethroning D&D. No Star Wars game ever did, because nobody can hold onto the rights to publish a Star Wars TTRPG long enough. The licensing rights get too expensive and the game inevitably folds. Of all the possible games that might take down D&D, Star Wars is on the list, but it would have to be an official House of Mouse product today. Back in the 90s, that meant it would have had to be a LucasArts product, and they were just too busy doing computer games. I'm pretty sure if you pulled Gen X Star Wars fans and ask them what kept the dream alive, you'll get a lot more people saying it was X-Wing vs TIE Fighter rather than WEG d6 Star Wars.

Quote from: Corolinth on July 16, 2022, 12:12:04 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
I agree. The WEG game though, was the single biggest influence on the Star Wars franchise when it came back to prominence. Between 1985 and 1998, WEG Star Wars was the primary creative force filling in the gaps of the setting for the Star Wars franchise. When authors wanted background material for their books, they were given copies of the Star Wars RPG by WEG - including Timothy Zahn.

Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.

Hindsight is 20/20. West End Games Star Wars never had a real chance of dethroning D&D. No Star Wars game ever did, because nobody can hold onto the rights to publish a Star Wars TTRPG long enough. The licensing rights get too expensive and the game inevitably folds. Of all the possible games that might take down D&D, Star Wars is on the list, but it would have to be an official House of Mouse product today. Back in the 90s, that meant it would have had to be a LucasArts product, and they were just too busy doing computer games. I'm pretty sure if you pulled Gen X Star Wars fans and ask them what kept the dream alive, you'll get a lot more people saying it was X-Wing vs TIE Fighter rather than WEG d6 Star Wars.

WEG held the Star Wars license for 12 years, that is the longest that it has been held so far.

One of the products that was in the works for WEG Star Wars that never got published was a sourcebook for the Rogue Squadron and Wraith Squadron novels that would have tied in to the X-Wing vs TIE Fighter computer games. THAT sourcebook would have been a throat punch to TSR D&D if it would have made it to publication.

Today, you are right. Licensing fees would be too high for a RPG publisher to make enough profit from the IP combined with the "planned obsolescence" built into licencing agreements in today's market to be viable. The fact that WEG Star Wars has enough oomph to keep being played by fans and written about by fans is a testament to the game's viability.

Quote from: Corolinth on July 16, 2022, 12:12:04 AM
Hindsight is 20/20. West End Games Star Wars never had a real chance of dethroning D&D. No Star Wars game ever did, because nobody can hold onto the rights to publish a Star Wars TTRPG long enough. The licensing rights get too expensive and the game inevitably folds.

   Has this ever been demonstrated? WEG folded due to the shoe connection, and WotC is a bad example because any resources devoted to another RPG have to justify themselves not being used to further the reign of the 8000-lb. wyrm that is D&D. I don't know anything about how FFG's foray into the license turned out, so that may provide evidence for this contention.

  Similar things happened with Star Trek, FWIW--I'm given to understand FASA lost it because Roddenberry didn't like the FASA approach when he reimagined Trek for early TNG, Last Unicorn got absorbed by WotC and tripped a clause in the licensing contract, and Decipher folded due to embezzlement. Not saying a Trek game could have been a D&D killer, but I think that if you dig into the history of these things, you'll often find more going on than just 'the product line didn't sell' or 'the license got too expensive.'

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 15, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
Could WEG Star Wars kick TSR D&D in the nuts in 1987? Fuck no. By 1998 though, it had a fighting chance to do so thanks to the popularity of the Star Wars franchise (which it was partially responsible for bringing about) and because of the mismanagement of TSR by that time weakening their hold on the market.

By 1998, WEG had largely fizzled out. The shoe thing killed them, but they were already slowing down before that. I'd guess their game line peaked in the early-to-mid-90s.

Don't get me wrong, their work was admirable, and WEG Star Wars is one of the best licensed RPGs of all time. As keepers of the flame, they were maybe the best to ever do it. But commercially, they never quite got to the point that, say, Call of Cthulhu did.