So your all in a tavern when an old guy in robes and a pointy hat comes in to offer you a job...
How many times has this happened in games you've played? What other fantasy tropes have been overdone? Which overdone ones really really get on your nerves?
Making a big deal of not having the traditional fantasy races, but then having ones that are suspiciously similar, or a bunch of ridiculous gibberish races.
Attempts at "realism" that aren't particularly realistic.
Using medieval demographics/economics (usually post Norman invasion England) for fantasy worlds.
Dark lords. Fucking dark lords.
Quote from: jeff37923;727406What other fantasy tropes have been overdone?
All of them. And none of them.
Quote from: JeremyR;727408Making a big deal of not having the traditional fantasy races, but then having ones that are suspiciously similar, or a bunch of ridiculous gibberish races.
Conversely, shaking up the traditional fantasy races (usually elves) by making them Japanese or Mongols.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;727411All of them. And none of them.
I'll have to 2nd BV here. That's basically it.
However,
Quote from: JeremyR;727408Making a big deal of not having the traditional fantasy races, but then having ones that are suspiciously similar, or a bunch of ridiculous gibberish races.
Attempts at "realism" that aren't particularly realistic.
Using medieval demographics/economics (usually post Norman invasion England) for fantasy worlds.
these kinda stand out (allthough I like Talislanta, in the case of the first point).
Quote from: Black Vulmea;727411All of them. And none of them.
Yeah, every trope has been overused at some point. But part of the appeal of fantasy is in resonance, so the familiar and cliched is often more effective than the truly exotic, which creates a more sf feel.
There are some obvious candidates such as (on the player side) good-aligned drow and similar attractive, misunderstood members of evil races. WoTC D&D tends to overdo demon-summoning cultists. Most stuff goes in and out of fashion though, I've not seen a greybeard tavern quest giver in donkey's years. Most WotC and Paizo quest-giver NPCs seem to be women in their late '30s (or well-preserved '40s) :D often in positions of authority such as city guard commanders, temple heads, etc. The first book alone of
Curse of the Crimson Throne (which I just started running) has two of these.
This is one of those threads where, inevitably, the good conversation shifts to talking about how to execute these tropes competently so that they don't feel tired and worn out. So, rather than waste a billion posts getting there, let's skip to the useful bits.
Really, it comes down to execution, and execution requires two things: that the GM do his fucking homework, and that the result of that preparation be applied to actual play where the players will see it and want to deal with it.
If something's regarded as a trope it's been played out a lot already, and enough that some instances are hackneyed. At the same time tropes can be subverted and kept fresh so they're never overdone, they're just tropes.
Instead of asking what's overdone, it may be more interesting to ask what's ripe for being subverted. Dragons, medieval settings, elves, etc.
For me, my issue is that they're all overdone, and more to the point, expected.
The thing I don't care for in writing fantasy is that I constantly feel like I'm expected to include a whole raft of shit that I don't necessarily want, or will even be assumed to exist, just because it's in D&D.
Because all of those things have come to define what 'fantasy' means to people, and the result is hopelessly limiting. It's wizards and dragons and elves and shit, and if you don't have those things, then you're too weird to live.
So I wrote my fantasy game, but put it in the modern world, and then as soon as that was over I pushed it into cyberpunk, just so I'd have some room to breathe.
Far too much ' saving the world'. Its just a days work in the supers genre but it has become all too common as a fantasy game thing. It promotes the worst kind of predetermined crap because the PCs can't possibly fail or the world literally ends.
Quote from: jeff37923;727406So your all in a tavern when an old guy in robes and a pointy hat comes in to offer you a job...
How many times has this happened in games you've played? What other fantasy tropes have been overdone? Which overdone ones really really get on your nerves?
Chaotic Neutral Rogues
Drow
Mysterious, brooding loners with names like: Kane, Cane, Kaine, Cayne, Quane, etc.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;727424This is one of those threads where, inevitably, the good conversation shifts to talking about how to execute these tropes competently so that they don't feel tired and worn out. So, rather than waste a billion posts getting there, let's skip to the useful bits.
Really, it comes down to execution, and execution requires two things: that the GM do his fucking homework, and that the result of that preparation be applied to actual play where the players will see it and want to deal with it.
What he said. I've done 412 reviews. When the designer tosses out the same old bullshit tropes then its bullshit. When the designer does the work then the trope turns in to the quality classical archetype.
Quote from: JeremyR;727408Making a big deal of not having the traditional fantasy races, but then having ones that are suspiciously similar, or a bunch of ridiculous gibberish races.
We don't use the obligatory, D&D races: Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Half-Orcs, Drow...
The available races for this campaign are Alves, Dverger, Hobbits, Half-Oni, and Drow.
Recently, I've noticed way too much "unspeakable evil" crap. Did half the OSR just discover Howard and Lovecraft?
Quote from: Brad;727444Recently, I've noticed way too much "unspeakable evil" crap. Did half the OSR just discover Howard and Lovecraft?
Much as I'm a giant REH fanboy, I have to agree. Way waaaaay much "Savage Sword of Conan" type stuff recently.
Also, "lookit edgy!!!" stuff.
Quote from: smiorganInstead of asking what's overdone, it may be more interesting to ask what's ripe for being subverted.
However, sometimes it seems like some subvertions are getting more hackneyed than the tropes they subvert.
Well, all of them of course, love them though I do, they're all worn thin as a temple whore's transparent robe.
I wonder if Shadowrun gets a medal for beating the tropes of two genres into paste?
Really, I think a big part of it is visualization. Rpgs are very dependant of visualization and when I say, "You see a dragon," the players know what I mean.
I've run some Dark Heresy and Death Watch for the kids at the shop lately and it's interesting to see the difference between the players who know 40k and those who don't. One kid in particular simply has no frame of reference, visually or conceptually.
Perhaps that's why proprietary sf games do so much better than generic ones. They know what the Enterprise and Millenium Falcon look like and have a general concept of what they can do.
It's all in the execution of course, subversions can be as dull and trite as earnest homages at this point. It's up to the DMs and writers to breathe life into the old, faded, and stained tropes and make them new again.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;727424This is one of those threads where, inevitably, the good conversation shifts to talking about how to execute these tropes competently so that they don't feel tired and worn out. So, rather than waste a billion posts getting there, let's skip to the useful bits.
Really, it comes down to execution, and execution requires two things: that the GM do his fucking homework, and that the result of that preparation be applied to actual play where the players will see it and want to deal with it.
What product then has taken a tired old fantasy trope and executed it in such a way that it became fresh and new?
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;727424This is one of those threads where, inevitably, the good conversation shifts to talking about how to execute these tropes competently so that they don't feel tired and worn out. So, rather than waste a billion posts getting there, let's skip to the useful bits.
I like this attitude.
My current hobby horse for refreshing a fantasy trope is an idea I want to rip out of an anime show called
Soul Eater*: The magic weapons are all people (they can assume human form, sort of like were-weapons) and the strength/compatibility of their relationship with the wielder is crucial to success. D&D has long had intelligent magic items of course, but the idea of amplifying and foregrounding that normally minor aspect of the system is very intriguing to me.
* I'll point out that anime in general seems notably good at finding new angles on old fantasy/scifi tropes.
Quote from: jeff37923;727496What product then has taken a tired old fantasy trope and executed it in such a way that it became fresh and new?
I submit Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved.
Fantasy races that are "not the same old same-old" and yet feel archetypically familiar. The wise, heroic, caretaking and absolutely insufferable Giants; the diminutive, nimble and magic-adept Faen; the proud warrior race lion-folk Lithorians; the learned, eldricht and mistrusted reptilian Mojh; the bald, crimson-skinned, coldly logical and psionic Verrik.
Same thing with classes. Warmain are warriors, Unfettered are rogues, Magisters are wizards and Mageblades are gish; those are fairly straightforward. But then there are Totem Warriors, which you could say are rangers, only they also have the specific animal affinity going on for them (e.g. a Bear Totem Warrior is not the same as a Hawk Totem Warrior); or that Greenbonds are your run-of-the-mill druidic or shamanic type healer, but they have the whole "connection to the Green" (think DC's Green from Alan Moore's Swamp Thing comics, or WoW's Emerald Dream) going on for them; or that Oathsworn are monks, but there's the bit that they derive their power from single-minded determination to fulfill a very specific vow, rather than the typical monk's "merely" deciding to become a kung-fu badass for whatever reason.
And the setting, well... there was a big war that ostensibly took place between Good and Evil and the land was saved, but in spite of one side being clearly evil (as in, a race of friggin' dragon-demons), the "good guys" comes across as overbearing at best, and outright conquerors at worst, keeping the continent's old tenants (humans and the other races) under their "protection" for the following millennia. For their safety, of course.
None of this strikes me as particularly original. But I think it's how you manage these stereotypes, how you flesh them out and breathe life into them beyond cardboard cut-outs, that really makes the distinct elements of a fictional world, no matter how hackneyed at first glance, come together into something lifelike in its complexity.
I think many things get overdone because they work and players like them. The tavern is a classic example. It is the biggest cliche in fantasy rpgs but it is also not a bad way to start a campaign. My own opinion is, rather than worry about whether something has been done too much or not enough, is to just focus on doing what I think fits and feels right for my group. That is going to mean tired tropes in some cases, new things in others.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;727509My current hobby horse for refreshing a fantasy trope is an idea I want to rip out of an anime show called Soul Eater*: The magic weapons are all people (they can assume human form, sort of like were-weapons) and the strength/compatibility of their relationship with the wielder is crucial to success.
Wasn't there some older non-English language RPG where the PCs were the magical weapons of the various adventurers... that the adventurers might die or lose the weapon... but the weapon/PC would go on and whoever picked it up next would be a new augmentation for the PC (I'm going on vague memory there).
Read Diane Wynn-Jones's Tough Guide to Fantasy Land
Its basically every over-used trope in fantasy fiction ever crammed in one book. And its brilliant.
Quote from: jeff37923;727496What product then has taken a tired old fantasy trope and executed it in such a way that it became fresh and new?
Potentially controversial but honest opinion: the Warcraft universe.
It's cliche as fuck in a lot of ways, but it takes those cliches with just the right blend of not-so-seriousness, new spin, and a less homogeneous set of influences, and the result is pretty good. The metaplot has its problems at times, some pretty fucking serious ones at the moment really, but the setting itself is probably my second favorite after Tolkien's, and probably my preferred one for gaming purposes.
Quote from: J Arcane;727552Potentially controversial but honest opinion: the Warcraft universe.
It's cliche as fuck in a lot of ways, but it takes those cliches with just the right blend of not-so-seriousness, new spin, and a less homogeneous set of influences, and the result is pretty good. The metaplot has its problems at times, some pretty fucking serious ones at the moment really, but the setting itself is probably my second favorite after Tolkien's, and probably my preferred one for gaming purposes.
Yeah, keeping up with the Warcraft "lore" is one of my guilty pleasures. Great assessment. I'm particularly fond of the Kirbyesque science fantasy imagery and mythos around the Titans, and the whole eredar-Burning Legion-draenei debacle. I'm leveling an Orc Warrior right now and redoing the Burning Crusade content for the first time in several years, and I'll be damned if I'm not having a blast.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;727438Far too much ' saving the world'. Its just a days work in the supers genre but it has become all too common as a fantasy game thing. It promotes the worst kind of predetermined crap because the PCs can't possibly fail or the world literally ends.
That's a good one, yup. "Save the town the PCs are living in" functionally works just the same as "Save the world", but is a much more credible threat.
I think one 'save the world' is ok for an entire campaign or novel series, eg 'save Westeros from the Others' in ASoIaF works because it's very long term and presumably only resolves at the end of the series. My Loudwater campaign has a building 'save the world from Thay/Orcus' theme, again that is one instance played out over 30 levels and 6 years, and will probably only resolve at or near the end of the campaign. Babylon 5's 'save the galaxy from the Shadows' worked (albeit made season 5 pointless); Buffy/Angel's 'save the world every couple weeks' eventually got old even as humour.
Quote from: S'mon;727573That's a good one, yup. "Save the town the PCs are living in" functionally works just the same as "Save the world", but is a much more credible threat.
I think one 'save the world' is ok for an entire campaign or novel series, eg 'save Westeros from the Others' in ASoIaF works because it's very long term and presumably only resolves at the end of the series. My Loudwater campaign has a building 'save the world from Thay/Orcus' theme, again that is one instance played out over 30 levels and 6 years, and will probably only resolve at or near the end of the campaign. Babylon 5's 'save the galaxy from the Shadows' worked (albeit made season 5 pointless); Buffy/Angel's 'save the world every couple weeks' eventually got old even as humour.
My view on world saving adventures is they can be fine in small doses but i want the GM to be willing to go through with it if disaster isn't averted (whether that means total destruction of the world or a radical shift in focus like the Midnight setting).
Quote from: J Arcane;727552Potentially controversial but honest opinion: the Warcraft universe.
I don't think it is controversial at all. I personally am not interested in computer games because the gameplay does not engage me, but WoW rises above the rest with its rich background which I love. I have the D&D conversion book for it and find the history of the setting a great read.
Quote from: Simlasa;727546Wasn't there some older non-English language RPG where the PCs were the magical weapons of the various adventurers... that the adventurers might die or lose the weapon... but the weapon/PC would go on and whoever picked it up next would be a new augmentation for the PC (I'm going on vague memory there).
Can anyone pinpoint this for me?
Quote from: The Butcher;727522I submit Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved.
Fantasy races that are "not the same old same-old" and yet feel archetypically familiar. The wise, heroic, caretaking and absolutely insufferable Giants; the diminutive, nimble and magic-adept Faen; the proud warrior race lion-folk Lithorians; the learned, eldricht and mistrusted reptilian Mojh; the bald, crimson-skinned, coldly logical and psionic Verrik.
Seconded. Monte Cook may have (in my opinion) some problems as a game designer, but once in a while he comes up with pretty cool settings.
Another good example of races that feel familiar while still being somewhat outside the norm is the Legend of Zelda universe.
Quote from: jeff37923;727406So your all in a tavern when an old guy in robes and a pointy hat comes in to offer you a job...
How many times has this happened in games you've played? What other fantasy tropes have been overdone? Which overdone ones really really get on your nerves?
I have mostly mechanical issues with fantasy gaming, though like most every other trope, it can be done well, it just hasn't for the most part. If these were only limited to D&D I'd not post them, but they infested so many other games as well.
Classes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterClassSystem)
Levels (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterLevel)
Classes and Levels (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ClassAndLevelSystem)
Alignment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterAlignment)
Armor and Magic Don't Mix (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArmorAndMagicDontMix)
You All Meet in an Inn (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouAllMeetInAnInn)
I'm generally OK with most other tropes, but I obviously prefer them well done.
Quote from: LibraryLass;727635Another good example of races that feel familiar while still being somewhat outside the norm is the Legend of Zelda universe.
See, I think the the problem with using many video game examples is the importance of their visuals. I can take any threadbare fantasy trope and breathe fresh life into it with a stunning new visual take... but I can't really do that at the tabletop.
If you peel off Legend of Zelda's (considerable) aesthetic charm you're left with pretty generic ideas.
Quote from: J Arcane;727552Potentially controversial but honest opinion: the Warcraft universe.
Agreed on it being a good example of doing it well. While I no longer play WoW, I still love the setting.
Not that I stopped playing MMOs, I'm quite addicted to Guild Wars 2 now, which with a couple exceptions, did a good job with reconstructing some tropes.
As much as I complain about the standard fantasy races and other tropes I think I could quite enjoy playing a Warcraft RPG with the right group of folks who knew the setting... partially because I think there's so many interesting elements that the MMO doesn't/can't explore and because it's a setting that where we would share a LOT of mental images without anyone getting too fluff-Nazi about it (that might be a bad assumption).
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;727626Can anyone pinpoint this for me?
The game I was thinking of is a French RPG called Bloodlust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodlust_%28roleplaying_game%29).
Quote from: jeff37923;727496What product then has taken a tired old fantasy trope and executed it in such a way that it became fresh and new?
He doesn't write games, but Gene Wolfe has a knack for revivifying off-the-shelf SF/fantasy motifs.
Quote from: The Butcher;727522I submit Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved.
Fantasy races that are "not the same old same-old" and yet feel archetypically familiar. The wise, heroic, caretaking and absolutely insufferable Giants; the diminutive, nimble and magic-adept Faen; the proud warrior race lion-folk Lithorians; the learned, eldricht and mistrusted reptilian Mojh; the bald, crimson-skinned, coldly logical and psionic Verrik.
Same thing with classes. Warmain are warriors, Unfettered are rogues, Magisters are wizards and Mageblades are gish; those are fairly straightforward. But then there are Totem Warriors, which you could say are rangers, only they also have the specific animal affinity going on for them (e.g. a Bear Totem Warrior is not the same as a Hawk Totem Warrior); or that Greenbonds are your run-of-the-mill druidic or shamanic type healer, but they have the whole "connection to the Green" (think DC's Green from Alan Moore's Swamp Thing comics, or WoW's Emerald Dream) going on for them; or that Oathsworn are monks, but there's the bit that they derive their power from single-minded determination to fulfill a very specific vow, rather than the typical monk's "merely" deciding to become a kung-fu badass for whatever reason.
And the setting, well... there was a big war that ostensibly took place between Good and Evil and the land was saved, but in spite of one side being clearly evil (as in, a race of friggin' dragon-demons), the "good guys" comes across as overbearing at best, and outright conquerors at worst, keeping the continent's old tenants (humans and the other races) under their "protection" for the following millennia. For their safety, of course.
None of this strikes me as particularly original. But I think it's how you manage these stereotypes, how you flesh them out and breathe life into them beyond cardboard cut-outs, that really makes the distinct elements of a fictional world, no matter how hackneyed at first glance, come together into something lifelike in its complexity.
I liked that game/setting myself (particularily the Witch class - not quite gish but borderline, and I like stuff like choosing your elemental bloodline/power set etc). I think it handled the stereotypes in a pretty interesting fashion and would actually like more games/D&D variants to do something similar.
I guess one could say some of the same about Numenera's class/char creation system. You got your warrior class, your wizard/psi class and your jack of all trades (often seen as thief yes, but really just as gish as thief).
Quote from: Brander;727642Agreed on it being a good example of doing it well. While I no longer play WoW, I still love the setting.
Not that I stopped playing MMOs, I'm quite addicted to Guild Wars 2 now, which with a couple exceptions, did a good job with reconstructing some tropes.
GW2 has some interesting ideas, but WoW... no contest, at least as far as fluff is concerned. The Warcraft universe has had nearly 20 years and four games (plus expansions) to build setting and metaplot. GW came out in what, 2005? And again, some good setting ideas but nothing that graus me as easily as Warcraft's.
Quote from: The Ent;727780I liked that game/setting myself (particularily the Witch class - not quite gish but borderline, and I like stuff like choosing your elemental bloodline/power set etc). I think it handled the stereotypes in a pretty interesting fashion and would actually like more games/D&D variants to do something similar.
I guess one could say some of the same about Numenera's class/char creation system. You got your warrior class, your wizard/psi class and your jack of all trades (often seen as thief yes, but really just as gish as thief).
I'd say the Witch is a far, far more flavorful take on the same concept as the WotC D&D Sorcerer, i.e. a caster who's born to magic rather than apprenticed. And I too enjoy the ability to choose from several distinct and flavorful power sets. It is my understanding that the Pathfinder Sorcerer is halfway there with the bloodline thing.
With regards to the Numenera engine, I'm waiting for my copy to arrive, but really, character creation at least looks very, very flexible, and maybe an Arcana Evolved hack using the new system would be a great idea. A Litorian Unfettered who Rages, a Faen Magister who Rides The Lightning, a Giant Warmain who Leads, etc.
Quote from: Simlasa;727704The game I was thinking of is a French RPG called Bloodlust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodlust_%28roleplaying_game%29).
Thank you, this is fascinating. I'm amused to note the title in French is also "Bloodlust", untranslated. Foreign words R kewl, FTW!
Ooh, I've got one for revitalizing an old fantasy gaming trope: Several Final Fantasy games have an in-world justification for characters to be able to change their class at will. You can be a fighter one day, then a fire-slinging wizard the next, and a potion mixing chemist after that. I don't think I've seen this idea explored much in tabletop and it sounds like it could be quite liberating.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;727843Ooh, I've got one for revitalizing an old fantasy gaming trope: Several Final Fantasy games have an in-world justification for characters to be able to change their class at will. You can be a fighter one day, then a fire-slinging wizard the next, and a potion mixing chemist after that. I don't think I've seen this idea explored much in tabletop and it sounds like it could be quite liberating.
I think the only game that isn't explicitly aping JRPGs that does anything like it is WFRP.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;727843You can be a fighter one day, then a fire-slinging wizard the next, and a potion mixing chemist after that. I don't think I've seen this idea explored much in tabletop and it sounds like it could be quite liberating.
I think the elf 'class' in Dungeon Crawl Classics decides each day if he'll be a MU or Fighter... unless I read that bit wrong (no elves in the games I've run).
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;727626Can anyone pinpoint this for me?
He's thinking about the French game Bloodlust, from Siroz Productions, which is a total blast. A fantastic RPG really.
BV has the crux of it. the worse most hackneyed cliche can be great in the hands of a good GM and a great bunch of players and the most well crafted orignal world can feel like a mega drag with eh wrong GM and players. And a good world builder might be an awful GM.
So you can see this in fantasy novels and movies all the time. So Ambercrombie fill his novels with cliched archetypes but they are subverted and interesting and really well written. Pratchet has made a living from it.
I often tweak fatasy races, so Elven Pirates for example. I think you can do this easily and with a light touch so that the players feel like they are familiar with the setting without having to read the 20 page background info. Cliche is a really useful tool to provide settings that are engaing and grokkable. You can subvert archetypes, which requires they be familiar, so Buffy is the ditzy blonde cheerleader that KILLS vampires as opposed to being their victims.
I ran a Fairyland D&D campaign where fairytale archetypes were constantly inverted which worked really well, but for that to work you need the cliche to be true more often than not. If you want the princess to secretly be a lich then you need to have a few other cases where the princess is a princess and the wicked witch really is a wicked witch.
As for starting the adventure in the tavern... I don't think I could do that with a straight face to be honest but I used to start a lot of campaigns with "you are half way up a tower on a rope when you hear a shout from the batlements above...." largely of course from watching Conan too many times.
Quote from: jibbajibba;728038I think you can do this easily and with a light touch so that the players feel like they are familiar with the setting without having to read the 20 page background info. Cliche is a really useful tool to provide settings that are engaing and grokkable. You can subvert archetypes, which requires they be familiar . . .
[somerset] For the first time ever, you and I are in total agreement. [/somerset]
QuoteI used to start a lot of campaigns with "you are half way up a tower on a rope when you hear a shout from the batlements above...." largely of course from watching Conan too many times.
I choose to believe that by this you mean Conan O'Brien.
Quote from: Imp;728053I choose to believe that by this you mean Conan O'Brien.
(http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2011/08/16/16_conanobarbarian.o.jpg/a_250x375.jpg)
The worst one has to be the use of the word
trope as a euphemism for
cliché.
Quote from: TristramEvans;728079(http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2011/08/16/16_conanobarbarian.o.jpg/a_250x375.jpg)
Crom laughs at Jay Leno!
Quote from: Simlasa;727904I think the elf 'class' in Dungeon Crawl Classics decides each day if he'll be a MU or Fighter... unless I read that bit wrong (no elves in the games I've run).
Huh? What are you referencing here?? Unless I'm doing it wrong, elves in DCC work the same as Elves in B/X D&D in the sense of having a mix of abilities.
players who make dark, edgy drow characters who turned good and escaped their underworld (underdark, that word also)
Quote from: hagbard;729360players who make dark, edgy drow characters who turned good and escaped their underworld (underdark, that word also)
(http://i.imgur.com/iPtZtFT.png)
I love that the "heroic outcast" hand sign is basically the jerking-off motion.
.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;729366I love that the "heroic outcast" hand sign is basically the jerking-off motion.
The Overexposed Cliche really bring it home.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;729366(http://i.imgur.com/iPtZtFT.png)
I love that the "heroic outcast" hand sign is basically the jerking-off motion.
.
And he's rocking double scimitars, that's awesome.