So, what do you like...? For me, it's relatively simple basic mechanics of D20 and beholders (only interesting monster from aberation category)...
I like the idea of exact difficulties for various tasks.
It helps keep my store in business.
(hey - I'm honest about that)
- Ed C.
That would be a long list. Basically, I like the overall elegance of the system, its modularity which allows it, to be used in different contexts differently. I like the fact, that it caters preferences of different players well enough to bring them to one table and provide fun. I like the possibility to apply it in dozens of different situations (context, settings, genres, moods), I like the vast resources available for it, I like the fact, that this is the game I might play with my friends and people I hardly know due to the fact virtually everybody knows the rules. And so on and so on.
Quote from: Alnag...and people I hardly know due to the fact virtually everybody knows the rules.
That part is true to D20 (where it's just roll D20, and check if you beated target number)´, but I am not sure if it's true fo Dungeons and Dragons with wonders like turning undeaths which still doesn't make sence to me...
Quote from: FritzsThat part is true to D20 (where it's just roll D20, and check if you beated target number)´, but I am not sure if it's true fo Dungeons and Dragons with wonders like turning undeaths which still doesn't make sence to me...
And yet, you still somehow know, that there is turning undeads in D&D and even that it doesn't make sense to you. Now if that is not a proof of the rules knowledge what is it than?
Alnag: I wanted to play cleric once... this was the bigest obstacle, so I remember this one...
Quote from: FritzsAlnag: I wanted to play cleric once... this was the bigest obstacle, so I remember this one...
I don't see much obstacle in that, but whatever. You know, usually, the game goes like this - you are playing cleric, you know your possiblities (e.g. that he can turn undeads). So you tell your DM that you are turning them he says how to find out if you are successful. So generally, the overall knowledge of your possibilites is more important than the implementation of specific rules. But anyway... I thought this thread is about what we like not what we don't like. I've got long list for that later one as well...
I like it because it's the easiest roleplaying game to fit into a campaign structure, and campaign structures make for long term stories with lots of continuity.
Also I like the idea of fantasy adventure in general.
Quote from: FritzsThat part is true to D20 (where it's just roll D20, and check if you beated target number)´, but I am not sure if it's true fo Dungeons and Dragons with wonders like turning undeaths which still doesn't make sence to me...
Ever watch a vampire movie, and see someone hold up a cross? That's how turning undead works - the focused faith of the person drives away the unholy creature. Clerics/priests/whatever-you-wanna-call-'em just happen to be able to focus their faith more strongly.
Alnag: And so, I ended up playing wizard... at least I understood, wwhat every single spell my wizard knew can do...
Quote from: FritzsAlnag: And so, I ended up playing wizard... at least I understood, wwhat every single spell my wizard knew can do...
Oh, poor you. Now, I get it. It must be this horrible trauma of transclassism that made you such a bully, right? Yeah, I can see it know. It is all fault of that evil D&D. Now lie down on this couch and tell me more about your cleric dreams... :keke:
I like d20 for a multitude of reasons.
Simple base mechanic, d20+mods vs target DC.
It's easy to explain.
It has a lot of players.
Alnag: You should instead give us your full list of what you like about D20.
1) It is modular, allowing great flexibility in game style and setting.
2) The rules are relatively simple and elegant without being overly simple. This does break down in some areas, but that is easy for me to overlook.
3) It is more concerned with being a fun game than trying to be art.
4) It is unpretentious.
5) It appeals to and can accommodate all kinds of gaming styles, not just one or two.
6) No shortage of gaming materials.
7) No shortage of players.
Lingua franca.
ConanMK: Would you please explain what do you exactly mean by point 4. ...?
D20 is kind of like the beer that you and your buddies can all drink at the same time and not bitch too much about what it is that you are drinking.
Danger: After my trip to polish part Ciezsyn a would argue about beer that you can dring with your buddies without bitching about what are you drinking... I've never drunk something so terrible that Ciezsynish beer... it was so horrible it nearly made me puke...
(moral of this story...? Never, ever have beer in polish part of Ciezsyn)
Flexible, easy to use and widely implemented core mechanic.
Role-based design. In a properly designed D20 game, the classes are mapped to the activities of the game, making adventure conception and design unambiguous and creating more opportunities for everyone in the group to contribute.
The classical class style design is counterbalanced with a good deal of character choice and customization via skills and feats.
Multiple resource pools help prevent some obvious abuses.
The release under the OGL is good for hobbyists, not just the industry.
Resources. Anything you could want, there's a D20 book for it out there.
No intrusive "personality mechanics".
As a baseline, does not have "point farm" style disads, which I consider a scourge on game design.
I dislike d20 as a whole, but even I can find things I like about it.
a) The roll over skill/attribute target number mechanic is a great improvement over THACO
b) d20 is a relatively streamlined system without nearly as many complicating subsystems and alternate die resolution schemes found in other games
c) Challenge Ratings (like in 3.x) are cool.
d) Full statistics for NPCs and other antagonists...
e) True20, specifically, is an improvement over the base system-- Eliminating AoO was a good move, IMHO. I can only hope this train of thought continues into subsequent editions of D&D and whatever becomes of d20.
I like the commonality. D&D is the foundation of so many players' roleplaying experience. It's great to be able to get together with a bunch of strangers who share the same archetypes. Like a jam band, you get to the improv greatness faster when you're all riffing off the same simple & powerful blues progressions.
I like the tradition. This is part of the commonality - a lot of people have been adding to the D&D cathedral for a long time. And the roots of D&D are healthier because they reach back to a time when heroic fantasy literature hadn't been separated from science fiction and served up to a mass audience in ever-longer and less-original slabs. The excellent weirdness of OD&D springs from this soil, and because it's largely the popularity of D&D that made that mass audience for bland fantasy, I think regular trips back to see how it was done in the old-school are necessary to maintain the genius of the game.
That said, it's shaping up to be a pretty sucky time to be a D&D fan, with a seemingly deliberate edition schism ("you can't convert a campaign to 4E, just junk it and like it") and a lack of respect for tradition either literary or in-game (4E values its design conceits over emulating the fantasy reality of even D&D's own literary franchises, absurdly requiring overhauls of the FR world to keep up with the rules, an entirely ass-backward situation).
I don't like much about D&D or d20, their atmosphere and tendencies and goals, but I do like having a universal system, a sort of "write once, read anywhere" system, even if I'm not particularly crazy about that system itself. The idea of having a modular, universal system which functions from stone age to space age and beyond is a very good one, and d20 executes that goal reasonably well.
True20 and Spycraft are my two favourite d20 systems. Other than that I really like the various settings that D&D/d20 have given us. There's always a lot of stuff to steal.
Regards,
David R
I like the part where you go to scary places, fight badguys, and win fabulous treasures.
I'm with Jeff, on why I hearts me some D&D. If it's d20 specifically, then follow this handy, concise chart:
d20 -> OGL -> Castles & Crusades and Microlite20.
Quote from: jrientsI like the part where you go to scary places, fight badguys, and win fabulous treasures.
In very much agreement - except you forgot : Get the Girl (or guy) after fighting the badguys.
- Ed C.
Quote from: jrientsI like the part where you go to scary places, fight badguys, and win fabulous treasures.
This part is not specific to Dungeons and Dragons... most of RPGs can do some sort of this... even Nicotine Girls:D
Quote from: FritzsThis part is not specific to Dungeons and Dragons... most of RPGs can do some sort of this... even Nicotine Girls:D
There's a vast conceptual gulf between "most RPGs
can do this" and "this is what the game is about".
Quote from: FritzsConanMK: Would you please explain what do you exactly mean by point 4. ...?
Simply put, some RPGs are written and marketed in a pretentious way. Exalted's "graduate your game" ad campaign is one example. Games that bost to support "role play" over "roll play" is another. Indie games that waste space telling me how "cool" and "innovative" their own mechanics are instead of just explaining them is yet another example.
D&D/d20 generally does none of these things. The writing of the game, the markeding and the designers don't try to pretend it is art, or intellectual, or that playing this game makes you better than people playing any other game. They keep sight of the fact that D&D is a game, and thus being fun is far more important than making sense or being intellectual.
Note that lots of mainstream games are unpretentious in this way, which is good. I just get annoyed when a game tries to pretend that it is something more important/intellectual/artsy than just a game.
Um, it's called marketing fluff and WotC dishes it out too. I'll go over for a quick peek what's there right now.....there you go, 30 seconds to track down a quote for so-called pretentiousness.
"The Player’s Handbook presents the official Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game rules as well as everything a player needs to create D&D characters worthy of song and legend"
It's just some guy writing colourful ad copy, helping paint a picture about what you'll be imagining happening. Or not I guess if you think it's pretentious to imagine being somewhere else, as someone else (or a thinly veiled copy of yourself) doing things you wouldn't really be doing or be viewing/experiencing directly yourself.
D&D to me is like McDonald's; you can walk into any game anywhere and it will always pretty much be exactly the same. Play the same class a dozen times and, barring creative multiclassing, you'll get more or less the same mechanical experience every time.
And I don't mean this as a criticism.
Quote from: DwightUm, it's called marketing fluff and WotC dishes it out too. I'll go over for a quick peek what's there right now.....there you go, 30 seconds to track down a quote for so-called pretentiousness.
"The Player's Handbook presents the official Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game rules as well as everything a player needs to create D&D characters worthy of song and legend"
It's just some guy writing colourful ad copy, helping paint a picture about what you'll be imagining happening. Or not I guess if you think it's pretentious to imagine being somewhere else, as someone else (or a thinly veiled copy of yourself) doing things you wouldn't really be doing or be viewing/experiencing directly yourself.
How is that pretentious? It is a game about fantasy. Fantasy is based on song and legend.
I'm not talking about the "our game is awesome" kind of marketing that everyone does. I'm talking about games that pretend that playing them makes you better than people playing other games. Games that pretend to be art or therapy or some other bs.
The text you quote claims none of these things.
Quote from: ConanMKThe text you quote claims none of these things.
No, it makes different pretentious claims about legends and songs. But hey, feel free to join the fun and roll out examples too! It should be really easy, right?
ConanMK: Well, if game is desingen to support roleplay over rollplay it's OK to advertise it like that and it isn't pretentious at all... and in majority of three forge games I own there is nothing about writing that game is "cool" and "inovative" instead of writing about mechanics and in the last one there is slight hints of this, but very very slight...
Well, note that lots of forge games aren't pretentious in any way, for example Nicotine Girls (and this game is real gem, just try playing it, and if you play this while drunk it's even better!)
Well it looks like you guys have abetter idea of what I was saying now and the kinds of games I was refering to. You still disagree and that is fine.
I have no desire to turn this into a drawn out argument or to try and change anyone elses oppinion. My initial post was simply an answer to the opening post. I'm content to leave it as a list without turning this into a thesis with citations, examples and research.
I have never played or even read Nicotine Girls, so I can not comment on whether or not I find it pretentious. I generally avoid Forge games that seem to want to try and limit me and my RPG group to fitting into one of their narrowly defined "GNS" boxes. I generally prefer more traditional games with more of a modular toolkit approach.
ConanMK: You should try some Forge games then... I sugest you to try Nicotine Girls (http://www.halfmeme.com/nicotinegirls.html) (it's short, free and won some sort of award), Mountain Witch and My Life with Master also aren't that bad, well try to avoid Shab-Al-Hiri Roach as much as possible, this one isn't good...
For some reason I never felt that Nicotine Girls are trying to fit me into some box, the same goes for Mountain Witch and My Life with Master...
Fritzs: It is fascinating, how you are able to derail even your own thread with Forge game marketing.
Quote from: FritzsConanMK: Well, if game is desingen to support roleplay over rollplay it's OK to advertise it like that and it isn't pretentious at all...
Is it possible to use the word "rollplay" in your ad copy and not be pretentious?
I think not.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadIs it possible to use the word "rollplay" in your ad copy and not be pretentious?
I think not.
Why, yes it is.
"This game unabashedly emphasizes rollplay over roleplay." :haw:
I'd buy it, too!
Re. this thread: What AM said. Also, I'm only interested in D&D, not in d20.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadIs it possible to use the word "rollplay" in your ad copy and not be pretentious?
I think not.
Welcome to ad copy, the crafting of pretension. But really that's OK because ad-copy-guy just wants you to know that they "offer the best possible play experience". :cool:
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhy, yes it is.
"This game unabashedly emphasizes rollplay over roleplay." :haw:
:heh:
Quote from: AlnagFritzs: It is fascinating, how you are able to derail even your own thread with Forge game marketing.
Its kind of hard not to notice the habitual pattern.
Its also one of the reasons why I don't like the Forge, this constant viral marketting.
Quote from: DwightUm, it's called marketing fluff and WotC dishes it out too. I'll go over for a quick peek what's there right now.....there you go, 30 seconds to track down a quote for so-called pretentiousness.
"The Player's Handbook presents the official Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game rules as well as everything a player needs to create D&D characters worthy of song and legend"
How can there be charcters worthy of "song and legend" if there are no Bards in the 4E PHB to perform the songs and recite the legends?
Quote from: FritzsConanMK: You should try some Forge games then... I sugest you to try Nicotine Girls (http://www.halfmeme.com/nicotinegirls.html) (it's short, free and won some sort of award), Mountain Witch and My Life with Master also aren't that bad, well try to avoid Shab-Al-Hiri Roach as much as possible, this one isn't good...
For some reason I never felt that Nicotine Girls are trying to fit me into some box, the same goes for Mountain Witch and My Life with Master...
This brings up a very different point actually.
I don't know how these games are with playstyle whether or not they are pretentious, but they seem to severely limit your character choices.
Nicotine Girls: A game about low income female smoking addicts does not interest me, particularly if that is the ONLY thing I can play. What? I can't be a rising Punk Rock star who has been smoke free and clean for 3 years? I can't play a private investigator who believes in the paranormal? No zombies??? I'll pass. D20 Modern, True20 and Savage Worlds are better suited for my modern gaming needs.
My Life With Master: Hell I don't want to play the mad scientist's mopey hunchbacked minion. I want to be the mad scientist! A mad scientist who goes on adventures with a vampire slayer, a witch hunter and a frankenstein monster. I'll just have to look elsewhere. Maybe the upcoming GURPS Girl Genius.
Mountain Witch: Well now we are getting someplace. The concept of playing a samurai in agroup of samurai sounds appealing. Treachery can be fun. I just want to be able to go on a series of adventures instead of having every adventure being a repetitive treck up the same mountain to fight the same witch. I can't go into a cave to fight an ogre? I can't travel west and join a caravan going through the Silk Road? The game has no Ninjas??? Yeah, I'll go play Oriental Adventures or Legends of the Samurai instead.
ConanMK: Very few games have unlimited character choices... maybe some Fudge variants...
Quote from: FritzsConanMK: Very few games have unlimited character choices... maybe some Fudge variants...
Excluded middle... 5 yard penalty.
Quote from: FritzsVery few games have unlimited character choices...
...But many do offer more than one. :)
Hey, wasn't this about d20 and D&D, like, originally? What happened?
Another thing I like about D&D: the shared history. Many of us went through Keep on the Borderlands, we learned what the hell a Beholder is (and isn't), we learned that "Bree-Yark" is Goblin language for "We Surrender!" (or is it?), we've watched the slow, sad decline of the once-proud goblin race, we read many of the same articles in
Dragon, we've played in the same settings, we've learned to hate emo chaotic good dual scimitar-wielding drow knock-offs, and we've bitched and argued about alignment as long as there's been alignment.
There is also the Eye, Hand, and Head of Vecna.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstHey, wasn't this about d20 and D&D, like, originally? What happened?
No. That was just a bait. ;)
Anyway, one more thing I like about D&D is its "archetypal heroic path" approach. I mean, the way it follows the classical pattern - at the beginning the hero (player's character) is pretty lame and doesn't much now about what to do but he gradually getting better and you can really feel this breath of ancient epics in it. (Well, at least till 4e, I am not so sure about this one there.)
Now I don't think this is specific to DnD, dozen of other games has this effect as well, just sounds like worth mentioning.
Quote from: Zachary The First...But many do offer more than one. :)
Hey, wasn't this about d20 and D&D, like, originally? What happened?
I was actually trying to get back to D&D/d20 in talking about limits on character choice.
Another reason I like D&D/D20 is that I have TONS of character choices, not just one or a narrow range. We have warriors and samurai of all sorts plus ninjas, swashbucklers, sorcerers, witches, shamans and so much more.
ConanMK: Classes are generaly OK, but level adjustment sucks for magic users... and multiclassing don't do any better...
Quote from: FritzsConanMK: Classes are generaly OK, but level adjustment sucks for magic users... and multiclassing don't do any better...
Well yes, those are some of the flaws that 4e aims to fix. They never really bothered me much in 3rd edition really.
I just read the rules page for Nicotine Girls and I can't imagine any scenario at all where such a game would be fun.
I am not the biggest D&D fan on the planet, but I can imagine thousands of scenarios where I would have plenty of fun. That's what I like about D&D.
Quote from: jeff37923How can there be charcters worthy of "song and legend" if there are no Bards in the 4E PHB to perform the songs and recite the legends?
Indeed! :haw: But an ad-copy-guy that wrote "The Player’s Handbook presents the official Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game rules as well as everything a player needs to create D&D characters worthy of cheesy, innane song and trite, overwrought legend that carry no impact outside of your own head but you have to buy next year's extension to the Player's Handbook to have a character to put words and notes to those legends and songs"? He'd be standing in the unemployment line chatting up the tone-def singer and the clumsy barmaid.
I like the intent of the original design. Broad archetypical characters, fast character creation at any level, streamlined miniatures-battle style combat with its implicit whole figure casualty removal for one hit dice monsters. Monster descriptions that include built in force rosters.
I also like the construction of the planar cosmology and the bizzare and open variety of monsters that have been wedged into it. Just about every rpg since D&D has tried to be more focussed and do less in the name of sanity. But the insanity of D&D is one of its charms in my mind.
No, I don't think there's been a decent edition since first, why?
I like that D&D(D20) is still surprisingly familiar and answers quite a few criticisms of previous editions of D&D. I like that it attempts to port that familiarity to other genres and settings. I don't have to learn many new rules because I've been playing a semblance of it for 25 years.
It's probably the game that gets the most play mileage on the shelf even though it's the game I look at the least.