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I've seen several threads over the months here, which seems to divide the community into two separate groups. Some players prefer to define their character's personality strengths and moral flaws first, whereas others prefer to create their attributes, select a race and class and then determine their personality.

With ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG (http://grimandperilous.com)'s development, we've waffled back and forth on the subject between our playtesters, contributors and editor. Both have a significant role in the game, but we're divided on what belongs where.

Here's where I reach out to you, the general role-playing populace for your opinion. One can certainly argue that both are equally important, but I'd like to know - where do you stand? Which do you consider first and foremost in the character creation process? I'd love to hear your opinions and experience on the matter!

A lot of it depends on the game and its generation system. I try and read the game first and try to get inspiration, then see what comes from playing around with the mechanics.

Almost always personality.  If, after about 15 minutes, I haven't latched onto something good then I'll roll my attributes (unassigned preferably) and see if I'm going to be average, strong in one thing, weak in one thing, and so on to help spark an idea, but that's pretty rare.  I can't just assign numbers and then make something to match it though.  The 'molding' of the personality to fit appropriate attributes and stuff comes afterwards naturally, but I have to have a lump of proper clay to start with!

Depends on the game, really. For a random-generation game it's obviously stats first (Maybe not all the stats, but certainly a core of them), but for points-based, I'll typically come up with a vague concept, put some numbers down, evolve the concept, etc. until I'm happy.

I think you're best off acknowledging people will go either way.

Isn't "class and race" tied to "personality"?

Even though i may act different personlities as a GM, i don't when i'm a player:
Thus, as a player, i do not choose personality, because the personalit is always a variant of my own.

If i decides to tweak it abit towards one or another aspect, it usually happens as a part of the rest.
What i always choose first, if possible and neccesary, is "race".
And like personality, i usually has the same thing, but only if the system and GM allows it: A cat-folk-being.
But if that don't work, i might have to choose between human or Elf.

Since i am not fond of playing D&D (any version), i tend to shift between choosing the rest in varying order, after playing several Storytelling games and similarly inspired, i go for something called "Concept" first.
Since personality already is defined (never chosen) for me, one may say this equals "Class".

So my order is:
Always defined: Personality
First choise: "Race"
Second Choise: "Class"
"The rest".

It really just depends on the game. If I'm doing some sort of point-buy system, or in a game where the GM lets me put my stats where I want, then I'll definitely at least have a sort of character concept beforehand.

If I'm rolling attributes straight or with minimal change in Castles & Crusades or PFRPG, for instance, then I might have a character idea, but how he's expressed is going to depend on what I roll. Perhaps I had a warrior or savage barbarian type in mind, but I roll low on my Strength and high on my Dex. Perhaps he had some sort of wasting illness as a child, and had to compensate by being quicker and sneakier than many in his tribe? Perhaps he dreams of being a warrior, but was chosen as the shaman's successor at a young age? The ideas can still be there, but just like life, what someone does is and how they act is tempered by reality.

In games like Traveller, I usually just enjoy fleshing out my character as his life experiences rolled during character creation round him out.

I often find myself coming up with a personality,realising it's a stereotype (embittered mercenary), and then rolling attributes that then help me break out of the stereotype (very low strength...maybe he's never seen combat, he's just a cynical "armchair enthusiast" of military matters).

Personality and concept first, then the stats and skills that fit.

After that, I let the stats and skills influence my concept.

For me, it is intuitive to create a character concept first and then select whatever the system offers to realize that concept.

I have a distaste for creating a character primarily around a mechanic.

I roll for my attributes.

Personality emerges in play.

Stats come first. There may be an initial concept during chargen, but my characters tend to become defined over the first few sessions.

First I have an idea about the kind of character I want to play, then I build/roll the character. The details of his/her personality are filled in during play (usually the first sessions are defining)!

I like systems best that allow for both approaches.

Allow players that come from the "personality/character concept first" side top create their character (within the limits of the system/genre, of course; no special snowflake lost angel character in a warhammeresque humanocentric campaign), but let other players who want to use chance find their character with the rolls of some dice.

Off topic, yet somewhat related:

Hi ZWEIHÄNDER!

On the official forum you said (http://forum.strike-to-stun.net/viewtopic.php?p=65894#65894):

QuoteI've spoken a few times in the last two podcast interviews about how I tackled Warhammer's broken math (and the pains I undertook to understand it before embarking on the design process). ZWEIHÄNDER falls somewhere in the sweet, sweet middle. The math revisal is core to the design principle. I'm very proud of it.

Would you care to elaborate on that? (Maybe in a new thread?)
In what way was the math broken, what were the pains to understand it and how does your take on the system repair the damage?

Depends on the game. In WFRP I roll eveything randomly and then discover the character in play.

It varies with me.  In point-buy games, I'll generally have a concept first and build to that.  In games where there is a more random generation system, I'll typically let the dice tell me who my character is.  As a player, I'd like to note that a random character/lifepath system can be a useful tool no matter what the system is like, just to help get the creative juices flowing on days your muse is silent.

Personality/Concept first because if point build you need a focus if random roll you can't count on "good" numbers, and spreads are a meh middle ground most times. Unless it's whack like 4e.

@Melan, you became a mod? Very cool sir. Or are you doing that fun Ladybird European thing?:D

I prefer to start for race (and nationality) because they can affect skills, social matters, and the question of how the character got to where he was.

Then social class, since that affects available occupation (Vocation) followed by stats (I think, it's been awhile).

There are 18 stats to roll for, but there are rules as to where rolls can go, with "Capacity" having the highest numbers and "Power" and "Speed" numbers no better than equal to Capacity under each of the six Categories.

There are matters such as wealth and property, skills, and birth rank among other things to consider, but that's the start.

I like to start with an idea of who this might be and go from there.  I guess there might be some exceptions (like when you roll random attributes in order) where I might roll first and then ask what interesting take I can have on the scores.  You definitely discover depth during play, but if I don't start with a concept it is a thin line to my wargamer roots taking over (and that never turn out well),

Quote from: Votan;602986I like to start with an idea of who this might be and go from there.  I guess there might be some exceptions (like when you roll random attributes in order) where I might roll first and then ask what interesting take I can have on the scores.  You definitely discover depth during play, but if I don't start with a concept it is a thin line to my wargamer roots taking over (and that never turn out well),

You aren't alone. I am not a Wargamer but I am double Capricorn so I understand the mindset. :D

My inner powergaming rules lawyer takes over if I don't have a real concept first.  Given "numbers" seduce me with their evil siren call.

I might come to the table with a silly idea that amuses me for a character, such as like one of those fussy retired British military officers from British media or a corny country music star, but the dice and "formative adventuring" really determine what the character's personality will be.

I may come to the game intending to play Kurt Russel, but the ability score rolls determine whether it's a Snake Pliskin, a Jack Burton or a Captain Ron.

I don't currently play in games where I get to arrange or buy ability scores, when when I did play 4d6 drop lowest and arrange to taste I freely admit to ruthlessly arranging the score for the optimal permutations for the particular game system.

Maybe that's why I prefer random ability scores, I end up playing fat middle-aged texas oil millionaires, goofy inept Kurt Russel, balding disgraced pill-addict doctors, and retarded Russian circus strongmen instead of Batman?

Quote from: Planet Algol;602995I might come to the table with a silly idea that amuses me for a character, such as like one of those fussy retired British military officers from British media or a corny country music star, but the dice and "formative adventuring" really determine what the character's personality will be.

I may come to the game intending to play Kurt Russel, but the ability score rolls determine whether it's a Snake Pliskin, a Jack Burton or a Captain Ron.

I don't currently play in games where I get to arrange or buy ability scores, when when I did play 4d6 drop lowest and arrange to taste I freely admit to ruthlessly arranging the score for the optimal permutations for the particular game system.

Maybe that's why I prefer random ability scores, I end up playing fat middle-aged texas oil millionaires, goofy inept Kurt Russel, balding disgraced pill-addict doctors, and retarded Russian circus strongmen instead of Batman?

Just a request...stop messing with Kurt! That man is sexy.:)

Leave Kurt alone you say?

Spoiler

New Magic Item: Scroll of Summoning Aspect of Kurt Russell
These scrolls are similar to protection scroll in that characters of any class are capable of utilizing them. Unlike most scrolls they feature an illustration of a rugged, handsome human male with a beard or stubble and great hair. When read 1d6 rounds later an aspect of Kurt Russel appears. This aspect of Kurt Russel will willingly aid any non-evil user of the scroll as long it does not involve outright villainy and will be present for 24 hours before disappearing back into time and space. Roll on the below table to determine which aspect of Kurt Russell appears; any harm inflicted to an aspect will not affect the real Kurt Russell of our world. All aspects of Kurt Russell have maximum hit dice and a +2 bonus on all saving throw rolls.

d10
1 Dexter Riley (8th-level scientist; 17 intelligence and charisma; 1d6: 1-2 19 intelligence, 3-4 can become invisible at will, 5-6 hill giant strength)
2 Elvis (8th-level bard/monk; 18 charisma; carries 1-3 handguns)
3 Snake Plisskin (8th-level fighting-man/thief; 17 strength, dexterity, constitution and charisma)
4 R.J. McReady (8th level fighting-man & helicopter pilot; 17 strength, wisdom, dexterity, constitution and charisma; carries either a firearm (50%) or a flamethrower (50%))
5 Jack Burton (1st-level fighting-man but believes he is 8th level and actually has the maximum hit points of an 8th-level fighting-man; drops held weapon or pratfalls on any attack roll of 1 or 2 but will kill any supernatural opponents on an attack roll of 20; all allies within view get +1 on all attack rolls and +2 on all saving throws)
6 Captain Ron (8th level thief and sailor; 17 constitution and charisma)
7 Wyatt Earp (8th-level fighting-man; 17 dexterity, constitution and charisma; carries a long-barrel revolver that he can pistol whip with for 1-6 damage)
8 "Jack" O'Neil (8th-level fighting-man; 17 strength, dexterity, constitution and charisma; carries an automatic pistol and a tactical nuke)
9 Todd (8th-level fighting-man; 17 strength, dexterity and constitution; 3 charisma)
10 Actor Kurt Russell (8th-level fighting-man; 17 charisma)

Totally agree about point buy or arrays.  I am ruthless and random roll makes it fun. Or it makes me walk out.  Either works for the group.:)

I can go either way on this, but I get my best results if I start with some idea of the character's background. Personality comes next, then all the mechanical fiddly bits. I've found it's possible to do these steps in any order, but my best characters are the ones that started out as an actual idea for a fictional person, rather than a bunch of statistics, or god forbid, random numbers.


Disclaimer: any discussion of my personal creative process should not be construed as a "one true way" argument. This is what works for me. Whatever works for you, then you do that, okay?

Consider that scroll stolen for EVERY game I run and a possible scroll I create as a player! End of story.:)

You seriously know how hilarious that would be in a MtAw game? And fitting while actually useful?  Damn Thyrsus. You even D10ed for me.!:D

I suppose it would technically be personality but background comes at a close second. I say technically because usually the personality I make with my characters is linked to something else (usually the background itself) but I'd have to say that the first thing I come up with would be the personality. Am I going to be a coward? A leader? A genius? Who knows? Usually I make the decision right before I worry about the rest.

I know it's trite, but it really depends.  For most Vintage Games, I like to have attributes and a class worked out first.  In Justin's PbP game here, I decided ahead of time to use the Cry Havoc counter of Sgt Llewellyn as a template and see what he would look like in 3.x.  I think he turned out pretty well, but 3.x has a point-buy option, so I had a good deal of control over that.  I might have had to dice up a half dozen or more characters before I got something resembling the Sgt Llewellyn I had in my head, although a grouping of slightly above average scores probably would have done it in a Vintage context.  High scores in OD&D were a minor bonus, in AD&D they were more helpful, if not necessarily more important.  Ability scores have a fairly larger impact on the assumptions of 3.x, from my understanding, hence low scores are less easily smoothed over.

Quote from: Marleycat;602974@Melan, you became a mod? Very cool sir. Or are you doing that fun Ladybird European thing?:D

My status is of no concern to mere users. Do not bring up this issue again.

Quote from: Melan;603040My status is of no concern to mere users. Do not bring up this issue again.

You rock and roll on Melan, why should I ever care that you're a boy/girl /cat?:D

He said "users" just like Tron. Awesome.:D

I consider you a spiritual brother.  I apologize if my words were insulting.  In my family it's a sign of respect and sometimes love.

Stats rolled first, randomly. The personality is then determined by what makes sense from the rolls. That's by far the best way to do it.

It helps, for starters, to avoid the problem you get from an important percentage of players in non-randomized games, where they basically keep making the same one or two characters over and over again.  The randomness fuels everyone's creativity.

RPGPundit

I choose a concept that fits the setting/genre and premise, and is of interest to me. Then I bend the chargen system to fit (which is why I have no time whatsoever for random chargen, I make my characters, I do not simply take whatever the system hands to me).

Quote from: RPGPundit;603479It helps, for starters, to avoid the problem you get from an important percentage of players in non-randomized games, where they basically keep making the same one or two characters over and over again.  

Is that really a problem? If they're having fun, they're having fun, right?

At any rate if they swap back and forth between two alternatives what's the issue?

I mean, you could have a 10-year campaign with the same characters... so why not ten 1-year campaigns in each of which players A, B and C play versions of characters X, Y and Z? And even more so why not ten 1-year campaigns in each of which players A, B and C play versions of characters X (and M), Y (and N) and Z (and O) respectively? [Depending on how narrowly drawn and distinctive those character concepts are I suppose.] I mean if you had a 10-year campaign, you'd be getting more or less the same roleplay from each player for 10 whole years, subject to character development over time, if that happens...

So I'm not accepting that there's necessarily an issue, or as significant an issue as you perhaps imply.

But...

Say I'm wrong. If anything is an issue it's surely that players A, B and C keep playing characters with different versions of personalities X, Y and Z, and not that they keep playing characters with different versions of stat-sets X, Y and Z. Why should it matter that Andy B. always plays a dwarven fighter, if only each dwarven fighter could have a different and interesting personality? And how can you "fix" the players' preference for a certain personality or tendency to play that personality - without storygamey personality mechanics?

Quote from: RPGPundit;603479The randomness fuels everyone's creativity.

Ooh... "creativity"... I wonder what your views are on the "importance" of "creativity" in a roleplaying game...

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;602594I've seen several threads over the months here, which seems to divide the community into two separate groups. Some players prefer to define their character's personality strengths and moral flaws first, whereas others prefer to create their attributes, select a race and class and then determine their personality.

... Which do you consider first and foremost in the character creation process?

IMHO, YMMV, it's not really a question of splitting your character sheet into (1) stats and (2) personality/morals and doing one first and then the other. The two may be in many ways interlinked, depending on the logic of the setting and the aims of the game experience. You have to split them each into chunks and do a bit of one, then a bit of the other, then back to doing a bit more of the one, then a bit more of the other, and sometimes a bit of both at the same time. [Even if you try to leave one of them till play starts, the other one may have some implications for it.]

Some things may include elements of both stats and personality/morals at the same time, e.g. the choice to play...

--- a paladin (thus righteous, noble-spirited, goodly, honourable - but also a warrior-type with holy magic)

--- a wizard (thus a bookish type who is at least willing to put up with having to spend long hours studying for the sake of magic, power and/or knowledge - and obviously having magical powers)

--- a priest/cleric (thus someone who is a fervent-enough believer in a faith to spend their life dedicated to religious practices, but also, in many systems, someone who has priestly magic, and also in any system someone who is likely to have theological knowledge, be literate, etc. - in the modern world priests are taught about psychology etc.)

--- a thief (thus, if the name of the class/archetype be taken literally, someone who is at least interested in the techniques of larceny - and probably has had to have experience of thieving in order to build up a larcenous skill-set)

--- a druid (see priest/cleric, and a love of nature and perhaps skills related to nature)

So let's not be pretending that these things are completely separate.

In my own forthcoming system Soul's Calling, the first choices you make concern your fundamental spiritual identity and religion, which have minor stat-related implications, then you make a bunch of stat-related choices (or random rolls), some of which have minor personality implications, then one of the last things you do is decide a fundamental motivation / burning drive for your character.

I hate saying this sort of thing but I was not able to vote on your poll.

Concept First.  

That may include both personality and mechanics/attributes, at least in a general way.  I prefer character generation that allows placement of rolled stats.  If I must 'roll in order', there's not much point in developing a concept that won't work - in that case I'll roll and work with what I have.

But as far as concept, it usually includes something of class/race/personality.  For example, I might decide that I want to play a magic-user with an emphasis on spells of both fire and cold/ice.  Once I have my concept I work out the personality and attributes around it.  

Likewise, I might decide to play a tough-as-nails mercenary.  Once I take my concept, I build a personality and attributes around it.  

But sometimes the personality comes near the end - it can be derived from the concept, but doesn't always take the driver's seat.  

For example, in the wizard example, I might end up deciding that the reason he likes the two is that he tends to be bi-polar.  He might be cold, aloof, and standoffish, but prone to sudden fits of violent rage.  If that personality fits everything else and seems fun to play, that's what I'll go with.

I like rolling random characters and I build the character based on the dice throws.

In WHFRP 1e, I enjoyed rolling for careers after picking the race. I rarely allowed non-humans in my games to keep them more exotic.

In D&D 4e, I just pick whatever role is needed in the group and then figure out which class option among that role would be most fun to play.

Quote from: Omnifray;603531Ooh... "creativity"... I wonder what your views are on the "importance" of "creativity" in a roleplaying game...

Well, since the point of RPGs is to create a realistic persona (that is, a character you can Immerse into) existing in a virtual world, I'd say that being able to develop creativity in terms of the kinds of characters you can play.

RPGPundit