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Ive heard great things about this game. But looking at wikipedia it just looks like another time-travelling game (albeit a stylish one).

So, why all the hype ?

I have a copy on my bookshelf -- been there for a decade or so.

I know at least two of the creatives were part of the time behind the comic, Yamara in Dragon.

Never had a chance to play it but it's one hefty book.

Quote from: silva;521138So, why all the hype ?

Basically, the hype is in the details: Continuum presents an extremely well-conceived trans-temporal society. It's one of the top three or four takes on time travel in any media.

First, the setting is awesome.

Second, it actually tries to think hard about the mechanics of time-travel, and not cop out by saying "you can't fuck around with time, ever".  
So its a time-travel game, but not in the typical sense where the "time travel" is just something meant to get you to the next location in the game.

RPGPundit

Third unless you are a timelord playing it will kill your brain.

It's an excellent, excellent game. The setting and character structure are brilliantly laid out, and the mechanics fit the setting quite well - though they are rather difficult to get a firm grasp on. I've played in a one-off (run by a guy I know who played in an extended campaign), and it was phenomenal.

Though, again, bit of a learning curve. Still, one of the high water marks for RPG design, I think.

I don't know if I'd go as far as "high water marks".  It is a really amazing setting, but any game that is so difficult to actually play as to require reams of notes from the players (to avoid paradox), is actually pretty clumsy in design.  Where Continuum succeeds it is in conveying the real complexity of what time travel can do by implication. Where it fails gloriously is in not finding a way to make that complexity more abstract and less depending on the players actually, in real time, having to do ridiculous amounts of work and effort to avoid their characters being wrecked by paradox.
And the work of the GM is basically worse, because he's the one who has to keep track of all the players in this regard.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521376I don't know if I'd go as far as "high water marks".  It is a really amazing setting, but any game that is so difficult to actually play as to require reams of notes from the players (to avoid paradox), is actually pretty clumsy in design.

I think of it as a high-water mark in design because it works despite its complexity. I realize that seems a bit counter-intuitive, but think of how Continuum deals with extremely complex mechanics without shortcuts or GM-side handwaving. In other words, it effectively deals with a set of complex situations and represents them successfully in a set of complex mechanics without sacrificing necessarily detail in the name of streamlining.

Which makes the game difficult, and not everyone's cup of tea, of course. But its certainly quite an achievement, IMO, and head-and-shoulders above any other time travel based game that I can think of.

QuoteWhere Continuum succeeds it is in conveying the real complexity of what time travel can do by implication. Where it fails gloriously is in not finding a way to make that complexity more abstract and less depending on the players actually, in real time, having to do ridiculous amounts of work and effort to avoid their characters being wrecked by paradox.

But without that work the game would become just another "timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly stuff" time travel game (not that such games are bad, of course). The work, the attention to detail and necessary - and difficult - focus makes the game a stand-out. So I'd agree with you on how it succeeds, but disagree that the implementation of that success is a failure. I think they're both successes, albeit not ones that everyone is going to cotton to.

QuoteAnd the work of the GM is basically worse, because he's the one who has to keep track of all the players in this regard.

I imagine the GM can have quite a difficult time, yes, though I can't speak to that since I've not run a session of it myself.

I'd never heard of it until this thread. I'm pretty sure my FLGS never had a copy of it.

Its only a "success" in design if you define success as "players MUST (not "may", like in amber, but MUST) write several pages of notes in every single game session and keep those for the entire campaign, which gets increasingly complicated as you go along because the likelihood of getting entangled in your personal history gets higher the longer you've been around, which makes it that most games don't last more than a few sessions and the game was a huge commercial failure".   That's kind of an odd definition of successful design, though.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521681Its only a "success" in design if you define success as "players MUST (not "may", like in amber, but MUST) write several pages of notes in every single game session and keep those for the entire campaign, which gets increasingly complicated as you go along because the likelihood of getting entangled in your personal history gets higher the longer you've been around, which makes it that most games don't last more than a few sessions and the game was a huge commercial failure".   That's kind of an odd definition of successful design, though.

That's one element of the design (though it doesn't have to be "several pages"), yes. I don't think the game succeeds or fails because of that one element of design.

Quote from: PaladinCA;521561I'd never heard of it until this thread. I'm pretty sure my FLGS never had a copy of it.

I think it's been out of print for a while now (but don't quote me on that). I know my local stores haven't had a copy in... gosh, eight years?

Quote from: Géza Echs;521728That's one element of the design (though it doesn't have to be "several pages"), yes. I don't think the game succeeds or fails because of that one element of design.

If campaigns literally collapse under the weight of that particular design element, I would say yes, the game does succeed or fail (in this case fail) on account of it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;521919If campaigns literally collapse under the weight of that particular design element, I would say yes, the game does succeed or fail (in this case fail) on account of it.

Okay. But you're the only person I've ever heard claim that campaigns collapse due to the design decisions. The campaigns I've read about online (at various forums) didn't, nor did the one campaign that I know of from real life.

Quote from: Géza Echs;522216Okay. But you're the only person I've ever heard claim that campaigns collapse due to the design decisions. The campaigns I've read about online (at various forums) didn't, nor did the one campaign that I know of from real life.

Pundie likes to tell other people that the campaigns they're running can't possibly exist. It's a trick he picked up from the Forgies.

Quote from: RPGPundit;521919If campaigns literally collapse under the weight of that particular design element, I would say yes, the game does succeed or fail (in this case fail) on account of it.

RPGPundit

Pundy is right (a phrase he no doubt sees as self-evident). The problem with Continuum is that hardly anyone has played it (not nobody, hardly anybody) and the reason for that is despite the brilliance of its concepts the administrative burden makes Ars Magica look like Risus.

Quote from: D-503;522354despite the brilliance of its concepts the administrative burden makes Ars Magica look like Risus.

Wow! This line really scared me.

If it's true, playing Continuum must be like this:  :banghead:

Quote from: Claudius;522358Wow! This line really scared me.

If it's true, playing Continuum must be like this:  :banghead:

I genuinely struggle to see how one could run a long term Continuum campaign without software support and serious work on the part of every participant.

Not saying it's never happened, but the RAW require massive bookkeeping by everyone. Pundy is right on the money here.

And that last sentence there is another one to put fear into your heart.

Quote from: D-503;522354Pundy is right (a phrase he no doubt sees as self-evident). The problem with Continuum is that hardly anyone has played it (not nobody, hardly anybody) and the reason for that is despite the brilliance of its concepts the administrative burden makes Ars Magica look like Risus.

I already do my fucking taxes, thank you very much.

Don't get me wrong, the setting is astoundingly good. And the system could be really great, if it was just a little simpler to run somehow.

And I speak from experience; about 10 years ago I ran a brief campaign (maybe 5 or 6 sessions before it collapsed under its own weight).

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;522511Don't get me wrong, the setting is astoundingly good. And the system could be really great, if it was just a little simpler to run somehow.

Phrased like this, I completely agree. Though I'm at a loss as to how the system could be streamlined without losing the crunch that makes the setting so great.

QuoteAnd I speak from experience; about 10 years ago I ran a brief campaign (maybe 5 or 6 sessions before it collapsed under its own weight).

Was your campaign Continuum on its own? Or did you bring stuff in from the Narcissist continuation?

No, it was continuum alone; it was before Narcissist even existed, if indeed it does today?

Anyways, yes, that's the sad part, I can't figure out how to simplify the running of the game without losing a lot of the features of the game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;522747No, it was continuum alone; it was before Narcissist even existed, if indeed it does today?

It's been released in version 0.7 PDF, but the in-house playtest version is apparently little to nothing like the now out dated 0.7 (at least, according to Wikipedia. Sloppy research, I know).

QuoteAnyways, yes, that's the sad part, I can't figure out how to simplify the running of the game without losing a lot of the features of the game.

Hmm. Perhaps a brainstormed hack of the system could be put together?

I'm sure with enough effort it could be, yes.

RPGPundit

I've been running a game of CoNTINUUM for about 6 months now, and it's going really well.
I've got two groups. One in Australia in 2015, and one in Germany in 1825. Both are having a lot of fun, and here's why.

This game rewards one type of player much more than another.

Among the many ways to divide gamers, one may divide them by whether they're goal-oriented, or sandbox players.

While I have *nothing* against goal-oriented types, I tend towards running sandbox games. And players that enjoy a slow-boil, character based game where the lives of their characters is the whole point of playing... those are the types that I've found really get a kick out of Continuum.

A large amount of that stems from the system of the game. It requires just as much book-keeping as you've probably heard. My players see that as part of the point of the game,and part of the reason they like it so much.

I started the game with some friends of mine, and one by one they've left the game, to be replaced by others who are really enjoying it more. Pretty much for the reasons I outlined above. My original players were all from my Pathfinder game, and really like the D&D ethos where everything is defined for them and they really only have to understand the situation enough to know what to hit next and with what. I like that too, which is why I run Pathfinder.

But Continuum scratches another itch.

It really lets me as the GM settle in and grow a world that spans space and time, base that on history, and then try to break it. And the players motivation is to stop me from doing so in the smartest way possible. Not the most violent (though that's often the same thing).

Here's an example - I have a player who is exploring the Dreaming skill. She's having a great time with that, and I've got her being mentored by a Dreamer from about 100 years in the past. What she doesn't know is that her character is destined to become her mentor's mentor and best friend. All this is not only possible, but in the context of Continuum it becomes immensely rewarding.

People who need a game to really pop are going to find that kind of thing boring. And that's fine. Cause I find that there's nothing more exciting than well established characters that have struggled with decades of life, suddenly with their backs up against the wall, no ammo and a well coordinated gang of self-centered history-hackers trying to wipe them from the face of the earth.

Here's how I run my game. I use a mind-mapper to map the relationships between the events and the NPCs. Mind-Mappers are great for a lot of tasks, but for Continuum they're indispensable.

After that there's the little things, like using Roll20 for the character sheets. I had a sheet coded that lets the sheet deal with the rolls.
And we use GoogleDocs for the tracking of time travel.

So yes, software makes the game much easier to play. Not that I see that as any justification for nay-sayers. We all use tools for our games, whether they be minis or iPad sheets or whatever.

I'm hoping this game continues for many more months. I have lots of stuff to take my players through, and the idea that eventually they might become one of the 176 humans who get to define the borders of the very history of Earth itself is something I'm really looking forward to.

Along the way they can peel back the secrets of the universe and maybe even earn the trust of those outside this living museum enough to be asked to leave it and enjoy the fruits of their labors.

I've had more fun in the last few months of this game than in three years of Pathfinder, and I urge those of you who like games that reward planning and thinking to find a group and give this a go.

If you want to try something in my game, there's room in both groups for one or two more. Look for me in Roll20. I'm the only person in there running Continuum.

huh...so...is this necromancy or time travel?

I've never minded thread necromancy. It just feels more efficient and sometimes churns up interesting forgotten stuff.

If they want to simplify the concept they should base a time travel game on the adventures of Bill and Ted.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;807173If they want to simplify the concept they should base a time travel game on the adventures of Bill and Ted.

JG

Which really does do a better job of time travel that most any other movie involving it that I can think of. Such as the bit with saying "well when all of this is done, we'll go back in time and put the keys right... here..."

Quote from: Daztur;807214Which really does do a better job of time travel that most any other movie involving it that I can think of. Such as the bit with saying "well when all of this is done, we'll go back in time and put the keys right... here..."

That is actually pretty similar to the way they handle dimension walking in Amber Diceless.  :D

JG

It's a very cool take on time travel and, from a setting standpoint, the game is great.

It was also a real bitch to play, though, the couple of times I tried it. I appreciate all the thought and effort that was put into the game, but I wish they had sacrificed some of the detail to improve the playability.

Actually, "I'll put the keys right here" pretty much sums up a major part of the game. Making sure things happened the way they were remembered, even if you invented the memory a few subjective minutes ago.

I think the most intriguing part of Continuum's reputation is how violently it gets bagged by people who've not actually played it.

Having said that, I read the D&D 4.0 rules and knew I didn't want to play it... so I guess I'm guilty too.

One of my favourite things about Continuum (which I've repeatedly read but I know that I'll never get my group to go for) is that there's a combat manoeuvre that consists of travelling to the future to look up how the combat ended, and then returning to the present to use that information during the combat.

That should tell you everything you need to know about how much of a brain melter the game can be.

That's exactly true. However that strategy can really bite you in the ass.
If the opponent works out a way to gain victory over you even though you've seen how the combat should end, they may be able to cause you to suffer a paradoxical backlash that would really harm you.

I really enjoy this game.

In my pathfinder game, it took the players three years to figure out the significance of a set of clues I left them in the first session. (They started at level 1, and by the time they pulled all the threads of the story together to get a full picture of the world they were level 10). I had a rush of satisfaction greater than any I'd had as a GM.

I get that kind of rush about once every 4 sessions with Continuum.

It really makes you think, and plan, and I think I've written better games since starting with it too. At least they're more coherent games.

Is there a review or capsule description of this game somewhere? I have never heard of it before this thread.

Continuum is an amazing game that I don't think one can play with the rules as written for more than a short length of time.

For Nexus-
It's a game where all the PCs are members of a culture of time-travelers who work to ensure that the past, present and future plays out exactly as it has, is and will.

Think of it as a war that's already been won, but still needs to be fought.

And the only tools you have are the ability to teleport and time-travel at will.

For RPGPundit -
I've been running it for about 6 months now, and I'll have fun fun fun till my daddy takes the T-Bird away.

Quote from: Clamps;808082For Nexus-
It's a game where all the PCs are members of a culture of time-travelers who work to ensure that the past, present and future plays out exactly as it has, is and will.

Think of it as a war that's already been won, but still needs to be fought.

And the only tools you have are the ability to teleport and time-travel at will.
.

Thanks, it sounds intriguing.

Quote from: Clamps;808082For RPGPundit -
Think of it as a war that's already been won, but still needs to be fought.
I've been running it for about 6 months now, and I'll have fun fun fun till my daddy takes the T-Bird away.

Well, you've been doing better than me.  I ran it about 4 weeks before the reams and reams of notes I had to take to be able to remember every little detail of everything the PCs did in order to not miss any situation where they might incur paradox proved to just be too much for me to bear.

I've lost a couple of players along the way. I run a *very* sandbox style game, where slow-burn character development is far more important than chasing the plot stick. So goal-oriented players don't really get what they want from my games.

The players that do find themselves liking my GM style get lavished with all kinds of attention related to their character's background and personal goals.

So that's fun.

Quote from: Clamps;808812I've lost a couple of players along the way. I run a *very* sandbox style game, where slow-burn character development is far more important than chasing the plot stick. So goal-oriented players don't really get what they want from my games.

The players that do find themselves liking my GM style get lavished with all kinds of attention related to their character's background and personal goals.

So that's fun.

I'm glad its working for you. Maybe someday I'll give it another shot.  I mean, it's been about 15 years.

So the game is now 2 years in. I've had the same players for about 18 months, and we've figured out how to run it.
Sometimes a Span Log will need updating, or we need a recap. But we've got a game with a ton of very character driven relationships with history and futury.
A long-arch plot is shaping up, and the players are scratching at the edges of it.
If you can find the balance with the paperwork, it's well worth it.
I use a mindmapper. Invaluable tool for non-linear games.

Quote from: Clamps;807269I think the most intriguing part of Continuum's reputation is how violently it gets bagged by people who've not actually played it.

Nothing new under the sun:).

Quote from: Clamps;957788So the game is now 2 years in. I've had the same players for about 18 months, and we've figured out how to run it.
Sometimes a Span Log will need updating, or we need a recap. But we've got a game with a ton of very character driven relationships with history and futury.
A long-arch plot is shaping up, and the players are scratching at the edges of it.
If you can find the balance with the paperwork, it's well worth it.
I use a mindmapper. Invaluable tool for non-linear games.

That's the first I've heard of this game, but it sure sounds interesting;). Of course, mind-mappers are really useful for all non-linear games.

Quote from: Clamps;957788So the game is now 2 years in. I've had the same players for about 18 months, and we've figured out how to run it.
Sometimes a Span Log will need updating, or we need a recap. But we've got a game with a ton of very character driven relationships with history and futury.
A long-arch plot is shaping up, and the players are scratching at the edges of it.
If you can find the balance with the paperwork, it's well worth it.
I use a mindmapper. Invaluable tool for non-linear games.

I have to say, I'm amazed and impressed.  When I tried to run it, it collapsed under the weight of the necessary paradox-avoiding record-keeping within a couple of  months of play.

Thanks Pundit. I'm quite proud of my team. They work hard.
I'll have to admit that my GM style is not really suited to the way the authors envisioned Narcissists. I use them sparingly, and instead I've focused on inter-fraternal politics, Frag artefacts and a few house rules I've added to make the players take more seriously the consequences of being so alien while still living amongst humans (levelers).

A big thing for me was I've added a Willpower stat, straight out of White Wolf. I did this to allow me to include a Goals system that encourages players to pick goals for their chrs. When a goal is worked on or fully realised, the chr gets some or all of their WP back. WP can of course be spend just like in old school WW systems for lower targets on rolls or guaranteed successes.

Anyway, the goals and the slow-burn plot keeps us going. Oh, and I run Time Combat much differently.

We had a 4 session chapter that was the players participating in great detail the actions they wanted to do in a single Bout of Time Combat. Not a Stage... 1 single Bout. In fact, we spent more than that just doing a Measure on a possible Narcissist. (Turned out to be a Leveler, but that's how you find these things out).

I've changed a fair few rules to suit my GM style, but the core of the game and the world remain one of the best, most exciting and engaging games I've payed / run in over 25 years of gaming.

I've recently come to the conclusion that the Time Combat system as written is designed to just hand out answers to the players when they succeed on rolls. Am I the only one who finds that very unsatisfying?

I'm trying to find a way to make it more "assemble the clues" than "Oh, you succeeded on a roll- here's the answer." like it feels now.

But then it occurs to me I may be being too precious...