Was just thinking about this. I know for me, it'd be a workable combat system- not an in depth one either. Everything else isn't that important for me:) These days I'm finding myself more drawn to wargames and just sprinkling some role playing on top of it.
What says you?
A method of task resolution and a method of character competency evaluation.
My absolute bare minimum is sort of defined by Melee, the basic combat book for The Fantasy Trip. Though that's just a combat system. The full TFT system (minus a few bits I don't or never used) is sort of my minimum bar of acceptability.
That is, I want a mapped tactical combat system that is fun and interesting to play and where tactics matter a lot and make sense, and yet there are somewhat unpredictable results and danger remains real for everyone. Being attacked by a lethal weapon should have some possibility of killing someone if it would in reality. I want characters whose abilities and chances of success at things are based on things that make sense and correspond to real things, and are not excessively scaled. I want to be able to represent different skills and skill levels and to use them in ways that make sense. I want to be able to represent very skilled/able people defeating lesser people using their abilities in ways that make sense and that aren't abstracted into a generic blob of betterness. I want rules for other things that are game elements too, such as travel, equipment, encumbrance, and non-combat situations (climbing, swimming, outdoor survival, etc).
Precious little. We ran an RPG adventure while campaign with a deck of cards and estimating probability of a given action being successful.
Also, I turn all boardgames into roleplaying by default, so as long as it gives me a theme I'll run with it.
Some system for distinguishing between characters who are 'good at,' 'neutral/normal,' and 'bad at' whatever is relevant to the game in question. Anything else is extra (potentially appreciated, but not needed). I can build a task resolution mechanic with a single dice, a deck of cards, some pocket change.
Some dice or cards or some other way to randomize... that's about it. We've had impromptu games where there were no rulebooks or character sheets on hand and everything worked out fine.
I've played and run freeform, with no rules or mechanics, so I'll let you guess the answer.
And yes, that might sound weird coming from someone who has read hundreds of systems. Thing is, systems might be an extra, but they're an extra I appreciate!
A task resolution mechanic that doesn't stop role-play.
At least two other people, and a randomizer.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;939644Also, I turn all boardgames into roleplaying by default, so as long as it gives me a theme I'll run with it.
So do I!
Pen or pencil, paper, one or more dice and imagination. Cliché, I know, but I have played this way.
Quote from: The Butcher;939658At least two other people, and a randomizer.
We used to play when we went camping sometimes and all we needed was a good GM, some character/setting concepts, and a coin to toss (or you could spit on one side of a flat rock).
Played once on a bus trip with a big book to flip open to a random page and use the last two digits as a percentile roll. Made a 6 hour trip pretty enjoyable.
2d6 and the Mentzer Reaction Table, which I use for more than the usual intended purpose.
Players and a GM.
(Yes, I've played solo. Mostly just running combats to check systems and whatnot. I didn't Ar-Pee so much as chuck dice.)
Some of the best games that I have ever DM'd were done with only a coin to resolve specific "important" actions. Still vividly remember those games which went on for hours, on lazy warm summer nights sitting on my parent's veranda, using the illumination from the street light to see if it was heads or tails. :D
Shemek
Quote from: rgrove0172;939699Played once on a bus trip with a big book to flip open to a random page and use the last two digits as a percentile roll. Made a 6 hour trip pretty enjoyable.
I like this one rgrove. Consider the idea "borrowed" for future minimalist games. :)
Shemek
Quote from: Moracai;939663Pen or pencil, paper, one or more dice and imagination. Cliché, I know, but I have played this way.
So far you are the only one who hasn't taken imagination for granted. :(
Quote from: rgrove0172;939699Played once on a bus trip with a big book to flip open to a random page and use the last two digits as a percentile roll. Made a 6 hour trip pretty enjoyable.
There was an RPG that I watched a video review of (cannot remember which, I think it was one I didn't like the actual game of) where they pointed out that the publisher had put a row of polyhedrals along the top and bottom edge of each page with a random (or possibly advancing) die roll in each of the dice for just that purpose. I thought it was a neat innovation.
Quote from: Opaopajr;939750So far you are the only one who hasn't taken imagination for granted. :(
Or just don't need it to be provided by the RPG, instead supply it ourselves
Quote from: Tristram Evans;939768Or just don't need it to be provided by the RPG, instead supply it ourselves
No one said anything about the RPG supplying it. That's not even really possible. The question is what are the bare necessities.
As to imagination, I guess I just figured it was assumed (so yes, took for granted). Should we also mention that 'desire to do so' is a necessity? How about 'having a pulse?'
Quote from: Willie the Duck;939774No one said anything about the RPG supplying it. That's not even really possible. The question is what are the bare necessities.
'
Oh, durr, lets ignore context...noone's mentioned oxygen, food and shelter ::rollseyes::
I'm not sure how your response relates to that part of my text you copied in the quote which was addressed to you. It seems more appropriate to the part you didn't include, not directed to you, and a general aside about imagination being assumed.
Estar, that shelf kicks ass, and I don't even mean the books for a change:)!
Quote from: Willie the Duck;939763There was an RPG that I watched a video review of (cannot remember which, I think it was one I didn't like the actual game of) where they pointed out that the publisher had put a row of polyhedrals along the top and bottom edge of each page with a random (or possibly advancing) die roll in each of the dice for just that purpose. I thought it was a neat innovation.
Game books have been doing it with 2d6 for ages, I suspect the first such book would be older than me!
Quote from: Tristram Evans;939778Oh, durr, lets ignore context...noone's mentioned oxygen, food and shelter ::rollseyes::
Yeah, you forgot water and security;).
Quote from: Tristram Evans;939768Or just don't need it to be provided by the RPG, instead supply it ourselves
If only every player I have ever played with could supply it themselves. :(
Don't take imagination for granted. You'll miss it once it's gone... :(
Quote from: RunningLaser;939637Was just thinking about this. I know for me, it'd be a workable combat system- not an in depth one either. Everything else isn't that important for me:) These days I'm finding myself more drawn to wargames and just sprinkling some role playing on top of it.
What says you?
Players and some dice. If you're talking game itself, combat resolution, character competency evaluation, task resolution, and examples of a baseline.
I've played enough diceless games like Amber that I don't consider dice a necessity. Also, having played some non-combat games, I don't consider a combat system a necessity.
So even though I generally like a solid rule system, I don't think there is any particular feature that is required. Just players, characters, and imagination - and add on whatever works for the particular game.
(As a parallel, a board game to me just requires a board to play on - it doesn't necessarily require cards, dice, or any other specific features.)
Dice, writing implements, paper and friends.
Quote from: AsenRG;939650I've played and run freeform, with no rules or mechanics, so I'll let you guess the answer.
And yes, that might sound weird coming from someone who has read hundreds of systems. Thing is, systems might be an extra, but they're an extra I appreciate!
I guess that's not really clear. Or rather, it's minimalistic to the point of being useless:).
With that in mind, what do I want?
1) A kick-ass close combat system.
Legends of the Wulin, Mythras, The Riddle of Steel, Le Pavillion Noir (with the fencing supplement) and Spellbound Kingdoms do it in spades.
Honour+Intrigue, GURPS Martial Arts and Fates Worse Than Death*, Flashing Blades, DCC when playing an Warrior, Exalted 3e (without charms) and ORE/Reign are almost there.
Artesia, Usagi Yojimbo (the dicestep system version by Sanguine - never read the Fuzion version), Qin, Fireborn, Zenobia/43AD/Warband, Mastercraft (Fantasy Craft/Spycraft 2.0), Sengoku, OMNI (Talislanta/Atlantis/Hellas) are close. Presumably, so is Fading Suns, too, but I've only read a quickstart of that one.
Traveller, Blue Planet v2, OD&D, TFT and DCC wihen you're not playing an Warrior are merely decent, but acceptable.
*FWTD (and the other games based on the same engine) kinda gets in the first there with my styles, I dare say.
2) A suitably deadly system for wounds and incapacitation, and for recovery.
TRoS, Blue Planet, Traveller, Flashing Blades, Mythras, Usagi Yojimbo, Qin, Sengoku, Artesia, Zenobia/43 AD/Warband, The Nightmares Unerneath, MasterCraft (Fantasy Craft/SpyCraft 2.0), OD&D on the lower levels are where I want them. GURPS is a weird beast in this, but it can get there with the right optional rules (or it can get very far away with the other optional rules). A lot of D&D isn't deadly enough on high levels. ORE can be deadlier than it makes sense, though, so yes, you can go too far in the other direction, too.
3) Sub-systems for whatever matters in the setting.
Yes, that's too generic, but true nonetheless. Let me give you some positive examples.
Social Standing and climbing up are major themes in both 17th century France, and in Tekumel. There's a reason why PCs in both Bethorm and Flashing Blades have Social Standing, if you get my drift.
OD&D has the morale of retainers and troops matter, as it should. The Reaction Table is, IMO, the best part of the rules, whenth you account for its interactions with morale and Charisma (XP for gold being a close second).
Reign has a very good sub-system for the handling of organisations. It can model anything from a mercenary company or thieves guild, to the workings of an empire. Incidentally, in the setting "what are you a part of" is the first part of "who you are".
In Traveller, economics is the lifeblood, the means and reason for the existence of the Third Imperium. It's got a trading sub-system, 'nuff said.
Fates Worse Than Death is a cyberpunk setting. Computers have to matter...and lo and behold, it's got the best hacking sub-system I've ever seen in a game (better than in other cyberpunk games, at any rate). For that matter, the game adds a reputation sub-system in Price of Power, and guidelines for stealing secrets, which was long-overdue.
Passions are important in both Pendragon (genre emulation), in Spellbound Kingdoms (the basis of magic, with the whole setting being based around the control of magic and avoiding magic surges) and in Exalted 3e (because "the feelings of the powerful matter", duh). All of them have such systems, and you can manipulate other people via their passions, too.
Chases and gear are important for spies. Spycraft 2.0 is relatively well-known for it chase and gear sub-systems.
The favour of gods is important in games inspired by Antiquity, and non-incidentally, Zenobia/43D/Warband has such mechanics.
Witty repartee is important in swaschbuckling games and games where you mingle with nobles, which is why it's part of both Honor+Intrigue, and Spellbound Kingdoms.
Eclipse Phase has a really fragmented society, and social networks, thus the decision to have multiple kinds of reputation that allow you to ask for favours is excellent.
Finally, the combat system itself can be that sub-system. But that was kinda covered already:D!
Quote from: AsenRG;939650I've played and run freeform, with no rules or mechanics, so I'll let you guess the answer.
And yes, that might sound weird coming from someone who has read hundreds of systems. Thing is, systems might be an extra, but they're an extra I appreciate!
Which is why a better question would probably replace "you" for "a newbie", because each of us is already carring around a mass (and mess) of roleplaying games in our heads (which is probably of no use for anyone else but a mindflayer ...) .
If on the other hand it IS a question what you personally need to get a group running, then it is something that can´t be abswered by a single person, because you have to meet the limits for all yet unknown participiant or you won´t have a group to play withand your answer would depend upon how similar your ideas will be with the others to start with (and the rest needing to be carried by the used system (+house rules)).
Quote from: Maarzan;939985Which is why a better question would probably replace "you" for "a newbie", because each of us is already carring around a mass (and mess) of roleplaying games in our heads (which is probably of no use for anyone else but a mindflayer ...) .
Then my subsequent (and much more detailed) answer would remain unchanged. Just add "a good Refereeing guide" to it:).
QuoteIf on the other hand it IS a question what you personally need to get a group running, then it is something that can´t be abswered by a single person, because you have to meet the limits for all yet unknown participiant or you won´t have a group to play with
Of course I can answer for everyone if I'm the GM. Everyone else can play what I want to play, or skip it.
Still have to find myself without a group.
Quoteand your answer would depend upon how similar your ideas will be with the others to start with (and the rest needing to be carried by the used system (+house rules)).
Funny, by that perspective, people would need most mechanics when playing with others with different backgrounds:D?
Quote from: AsenRG;939991Then my subsequent (and much more detailed) answer would remain unchanged. Just add "a good Refereeing guide" to it:).
Of course I can answer for everyone if I'm the GM. Everyone else can play what I want to play, or skip it.
Still have to find myself without a group.
Funny, by that perspective, people would need most mechanics when playing with others with different backgrounds:D?
Interesting new view. Yes, it could also be the question how much do you want to have the rules prepped for handling out to START a new group - probably followed by "and what details would you like to add later".
And yes, in my eyes rules are a tool for "translating" and homogenize world/situational views from one mind to the next.
Quote from: darthfozzywig;939644Precious little. We ran an RPG adventure while campaign with a deck of cards and estimating probability of a given action being successful.
Also, I turn all boardgames into roleplaying by default, so as long as it gives me a theme I'll run with it.
Have you written about this somewhere? Curious!
Quote from: Maarzan;939992Interesting new view.
Which one?
If it's about "play what the GM offers, or find another game", I'd argue that this is how the game has worked since before OD&D had been published:).
QuoteYes, it could also be the question how much do you want to have the rules prepped for handling out to START a new group - probably followed by "and what details would you like to add later".
If possible, all of them. I should already know what is important in the setting, after all!
QuoteAnd yes, in my eyes rules are a tool for "translating" and homogenize world/situational views from one mind to the next.
Interesting new approach, that;).
Quote from: AsenRG;940011Which one?
If it's about "play what the GM offers, or find another game", I'd argue that this is how the game has worked since before OD&D had been published:).
If possible, all of them. I should already know what is important in the setting, after all!
Interesting new approach, that;).
The first one. I have seen the question here only from players perspective, not that of a GM who is preparing a gaming offer.
All of them could be very much overkill - at least for the first time. Do you really need starship creation, company management, star travelling economy and politics, mass naval combat rules and logistics if you are preparing the drafting of some grunts who will probably never get to the bridge of the troop transporter they are on?
Of course I would like to hve/know them, but I wouldn´t call them base necessities.
All I need is a friend and a bag of chips.
Y'know... before I read the actual post I was going to say a couple of dice, d6 and/or d10 and at least three people I sorta vaguely like who game, or are willing to game.
I got that much, I got a game, but then I'm a genius or something.
But if you mean what do I need to evaluate a new game system?
Hmm... by hard lessons I want actual attributes and skills, not a bunch of touchy feely player defined narrative, open ended meaningless adjectives. Preferrably more than four attributes (three is too few), and not more than 8 or so. Skills should probably fall between twenty and thirty, equipment should be well defined and give me a feel for the setting, rather than just some narrative adjectival self-defining meaningly namby pamby drivel.
Beyond that I don't actually need much. Hell, I like Fragged Empires, for christ's sake, and anything else I would add to that list (and some of the things ON that list) would be horribly violated by Fragged Empires. If you give me a workable character creation ruleset that has those details (and, i'll add, ONLY those details) I can actually make the rules up from there if I absolutely have to.
Which is, again, why I said all I really need are a few dice and a few friends willing to play. I can make the rest up as I go. If I paid for it, those are the parts I'd rather not have to make up, or work around.
Absolute bare necessities....
Just myself imagining an adventure ... nope, that is day dreaming, not an RPG.
One other person role-playing an adventure ... nope that is missing the game element.
One other person with at least one rule that defines the course of the adventure ... that hits it for my definition.
My ideal for best enjoyment, however, is GM, 4 players, and what is generally considered medium complexity rules set.
Quote from: RunningLaser;939637Was just thinking about this. I know for me, it'd be a workable combat system- not an in depth one either. Everything else isn't that important for me:) These days I'm finding myself more drawn to wargames and just sprinkling some role playing on top of it.
What says you?
Damn - I thought you meant stuff like "Table, enough chairs for the players, a GM screen, dice" - That kind of 'bare necessities'.
- Ed C.
The bare necessity, besides necessary stationary and having a group of people to play with, is that it be a real RPG.
Quote from: RPGPundit;941462The bare necessity, besides necessary stationary and having a group of people to play with, is that it be a real RPG.
I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but what exactly is a "real" RPG in your book? Also, I keep hearing the word "Story Game" thrown around here, but aren't all RPG's at least somewhat story-driven? So what exactly is it that separates a "Story Game" from a "Real RPG"?
Again, forgive any ignorance or stupidity on my part.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;941463I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but what exactly is a "real" RPG in your book? Also, I keep hearing the word "Story Game" thrown around here, but aren't all RPG's at least somewhat story-driven? So what exactly is it that separates a "Story Game" from a "Real RPG"?
Again, forgive any ignorance or stupidity on my part.
The way most people here play them, RPGs are not story-driven. I, for example, play them as an example of people with given abilities finding themselves in a setting with given characteristics, and trying to do stuff.
There's also a few people that believe, with varying degrees of intensity, that trying to make RPGs story driven is detrimental to them remaining RPGs (or, for a few other people, detrimental to them remaining games we'd be interested in).
Pundit is, like, the (semi-)official leader of the fraction that believes that games that take the story-driven approach and walk too far along it, are distinct enough from RPGs that calling them so is misleading. Thus, the term Story Games is used instead, especially for most Indie Narrativist games.
Quote from: AsenRG;941486The way most people here play them, RPGs are not story-driven. I, for example, play them as an example of people with given abilities finding themselves in a setting with given characteristics, and trying to do stuff.
There's also a few people that believe, with varying degrees of intensity, that trying to make RPGs story driven is detrimental to them remaining RPGs (or, for a few other people, detrimental to them remaining games we'd be interested in).
Pundit is, like, the (semi-)official leader of the fraction that believes that games that take the story-driven approach and walk too far along it, are distinct enough from RPGs that calling them so is misleading. Thus, the term Story Games is used instead, especially for most Indie Narrativist games.
I see, thanks for clearing that up.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;941672I see, thanks for clearing that up.
You're likely unfamiliar with our beloved host's decade long war with 'The Swine" (a term derived from the days Pundy emulated Hunter S Thompson), a sinister cabal of online game designers with the goal of ruining the RPG hobby,most often by infecting it with ridiculously pretentious theories (see The Forge) or, more recently, "Story games" posing as RPGs.
Not everyone here takes this noble crusade as seriously as Pundit, thus he is often a lone warrior for Truth, Justice, and the Gygaxian Way against the surreptitious threats to the sacrosanct RPG hobby.
Quote from: RunningLaser;939637Was just thinking about this. I know for me, it'd be a workable combat system- not an in depth one either. Everything else isn't that important for me:) These days I'm finding myself more drawn to wargames and just sprinkling some role playing on top of it.
Rules for Conflict Resolution
Templates and examples for PCs/NPCs
Examples of the rules in action
A single copy of the 0D&D white book set, including the reference sheets (most handy!). I can pretty much wing it, and everyone will have a good time. In January of 1977 I could only afford the Holmes Basic D&D set ($9.95) and got a copy of the Judges Guild Ready Ref sheets ($2.99) a week or two earlier, and I GM'ed games using only that for five months until I could scrounge up enough money to buy a 74' White Book Set ($12.00) in June.
I copied the character classes out of my friends 1st edition brown book set, and just made up some new character classes, Amazons, and... a mana point based Wizard variant as well. Later, after the release of PHB, I created my own Ranger class, that was more in line with the Rangers from Lord of the Rings (No spellcasting ability, but with enhanced tracking, fighting, & hunting skills, plus the ability to create magic weapons). Another earlier character class I created was a shapechanging bard variant that used ioun stones, based on the bards from Patricia A. McKilip's fantasy trilogy The Riddlemaster of Hed.
I used the white bookset exclusively to run games until about 1980, although I did buy all of the AD&D hardcovers, and cherry picked rules out of that to use for my Basic D&D game. I did run AD&D games for awhile, but by 1982 went back to running and playing Original Dungeons and Dragons.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;941672I see, thanks for clearing that up.
You're welcome:).
I was going to make a crack about how it needs to have a game system whereby I can play a role, but...
I want to be able to make at least a few choices about how my character interacts with the world. A robust skill system is one way. Class and race is another. I want there to either be a random element which I can sometimes ignore, or a simple system for me to choose how I interact with the world. And then some sort of clear system for me to interact with the game world once I've got my "guy" figured out.
I -don't- want a shitload of rules I'll never use, or just cause me to get bogged down in minutiae. EG: my two current favorite games are Basic Fantasy and Fate. They give me just enough of a solid framework to adventure in interesting settings, without so much detail that I get mired in rules and fucking around trying to remember everything for my group.