I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement. Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either. Just curious what people's thoughts were.
Keep the spirit of early RPG gaming alive.
AND.....
You can do whatever you want.
I'm not involved in OSR, except for a general feeling of approval for the movement, but I've thought of it very generally as games trying to recreate the feel and play of older RPG's, up to about 1991, and mainly D&D games, whilst using what's been learned in the time since to improve mechanics. Details seem to vary greatly.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR.
Quote from: Jam The MFKeep the spirit of early RPG gaming alive.
I would be a little more specific in that I think the OSR is dedicated to recapturing the feel and play of
Dungeons and Dragons specifically, especially in the first editions of either its
Advanced or
B/X iterations. This means it's going to include at least the basic six-characteristic structure, an XP-level advancement paradigm, combat based on the use of d20 to beat an Armor Class (whether doing the "subtract from THAC0" or ascending AC version), and a hit-point model for assessing character damage and defeat; it will almost certainly also include character classes as the favoured mode of niche protection, but this is not universal (
The Invisible College is an OSR game but has no character classes per se).
On a more general basis, OSR game design tends to strongly resist the use of metacurrency and metagame player agency, with a heavy emphasis on the "Gamist" dimension of the "Game/Narrative/Simulation" paradigm and the "Fortune" aspect of the "Drama/Fortune/Karma" paradigm; the only effect the players can have on the gameworld or the game situation is through the actions of their characters, and the outcomes of those actions as determined by the system and by the GM's interpretation. Resource management, combination of dissimilar assets, and a good head to select optimal approaches in varying situations, judge odds and evaluate pace of decision are all critical elements to good performance in-game.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 06, 2022, 02:20:11 AM
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR.
Quote from: Jam The MFKeep the spirit of early RPG gaming alive.
I would be a little more specific in that I think the OSR is dedicated to recapturing the feel and play of Dungeons and Dragons specifically, especially in the first editions of either its Advanced or B/X iterations. This means it's going to include at least the basic six-characteristic structure, an XP-level advancement paradigm, combat based on the use of d20 to beat an Armor Class (whether doing the "subtract from THAC0" or ascending AC version), and a hit-point model for assessing character damage and defeat; it will almost certainly also include character classes as the favoured mode of niche protection, but this is not universal (The Invisible College is an OSR game but has no character classes per se).
On a more general basis, OSR game design tends to strongly resists the use of metacurrency and metagame player agency, with a heavy emphasis on the "Gamist" dimension of the "Game/Narrative/Simulation" paradigm and the "Fortune" aspect of the "Drama/Fortune/Karma" paradigm; the only effect the players can have on the gameworld or the game situation is through the actions of their characters, and the outcomes of those actions as determined by the system and by the GM's interpretation. Resource management, combination of dissimilar assets, and a good head to select optimal approaches in varying situations, judge odds and evaluate pace of decision are all critical elements to good performance in-game.
Well, to me it is about early versions of D&D and AD&D. But I know some people like to include some of the other early games, which were out before BX, for example; and I don't want to exclude fans of those other games.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement. Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either. Just curious what people's thoughts were.
The core idea, IMO anyway, is looking back at early games (especially pre-2nd edition AD&D) and giving "old" ideas a second look. Understanding why they used the rules they did. Ideas like encumbrance, xp for gp, level limits for demihumans, and the modes of play they used.
We had gotten to the point where it was a given that the "old" rules were not-fun, stupid, etc, new players may not have even known about them, and I think they deserved a fair second chance.
I have a very simple view in mind that can be a complicate explanation... I will try it in any case!
I have always considered the original idea of D&D the result of a nearly perfect mix between storytelling and wargaming. Then the way every dm approaches the game, this reflects whether he is more prone to the first aspect or to the second... This view can also be applied to the preferred rpg btw (and in this case we can have the neverending discussion between D&D and AD&D...).
The distinction brings to a consequence in game mechanics for each side: on the side of the "wargaming prevalent" game there is a need to develop a very detailed set of rules so that nearly every event is covered by a rule... This means the game designer needs to map a lot! (And he will never map the totalty!)
On the side of "storytelling prevalent" game there is the need to leave up to the GM the room to define as he prefers to lead the game everything but the main features of the game (i.e. the rules will cover combat, magic and few other things...). This is the so called "light rules" concept you find nowadays in some retroclones or similar... Well let me say that this is fool's gold as every rule not mapped in the game is a burden transferred from the game designer to the GM.
Based on this concept, the core idea of OSR is indeed try to follow one of these two "paths": the wargaming is following the AD&D rules, the storytelling one is following the OD&D one...
I don't think its unfair to say that nostalgia is a significant force in the OSR. A lot of the biggest games in the genre aren't just based on a 40 year-old ruleset. They go out of their way to present themselves as if the book was published 40 years ago as well. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a fine thing to want to go back to an old way, when the new ways aren't very good.
That said, I would say that most of the most popular OSR games fall into three categories (with some overlap, of course):
1. Republications of old rulesets that have been cleaned up and reorganized (OSE, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, Gold & Glory)
2. Kit-bashes of what the author thinks are the best features of several editions (Castles & Crusades, DCC, Fantastic Heroes)
3. Games seeking to take an old edition of D&D and alter it's tone or setting (Hyperborea, Lamentations, Lion and Dragon)
Like I said plenty of games fit into multiple categories, but those seem to me to be the broad design trends in the OSR.
Then you also have the question of whether games applying the same DIY/back-to-basics approach to systems outside of D&D count as OSR. There's probably lots of examples, but the ones I know of are Warlock! which kind of gives the OSR treatment to Warhammer Fantasy RPG, and Against the Darkmaster which I have been told is setting out to do the same for MERP. (I've never played MERP, so I could be wrong about that.)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 06, 2022, 02:31:23 AM
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement. Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either. Just curious what people's thoughts were.
The core idea, IMO anyway, is looking back at early games (especially pre-2nd edition AD&D) and giving "old" ideas a second look. Understanding why they used the rules they did. Ideas like encumbrance, xp for gp, level limits for demihumans, and the modes of play they used.
We had gotten to the point where it was a given that the "old" rules were not-fun, stupid, etc, new players may not have even known about them, and I think they deserved a fair second chance.
Especially if that "fair second chance" is willing to admit that some of the old rules really are still "not-fun, stupid, etc,." and feels comfortable dumping them. Those that blindly clone without doing so get no respect from me.
I would hope, too, that if there was a winning innovation, such as rolling with advantage/disadvantage (I've read that was a 4E innovation?), it could be adapted it it made the overall game better.
Nostalgia.
Worlds Without number dumps a ton of garbage and adapts hood rules developed later after 0d&d but its not poo pooed because its laid out like old school stuff.
Without getting into the whole "What is OSR?" debate, I think some of the key features are:
- Creativity. Players need to think their way out of (or into) situations rather than abstracting things with a die roll. Dice are mainly used to determine failure, not measure success.
- Combat is deadly. Being a stupid murderhobo can easily get you killed. There are very few "second chances" once you get a sword run through your gut.
- Lateral progression. Classes/characters tend to get most of their abilities up front, then simply get better at them as they advance. There's not a lot of "get a shiny new ability at each level."
It is a return to recreating the feel of TSR (not WotC) D&D, while opening new directions along those lines, staying truthful to the TSR feel.
This kinda does a pretty good job showing the differences between the intent of OSR and how it compares to more modern games: https://archive.org/details/a-quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/A%20Quick%20Primer%20for%20Old%20School%20Gaming/ (https://archive.org/details/a-quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/A%20Quick%20Primer%20for%20Old%20School%20Gaming/)
Quote from: Brooding Paladin on September 06, 2022, 07:11:38 PM
This kinda does a pretty good job showing the differences between the intent of OSR and how it compares to more modern games: https://archive.org/details/a-quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/A%20Quick%20Primer%20for%20Old%20School%20Gaming/ (https://archive.org/details/a-quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/A%20Quick%20Primer%20for%20Old%20School%20Gaming/)
Interesting pdfs. Although I think their representation of old school gaming is overgeneralized. For example, skills and NWPs and skill checks were already a thing with both BECMI/RC D&D and 2ndEd, many years before the "modern RPGs" of the 2000s+ (e.g. 3e) came out. Game balance was also important, even in these older games (they just used other systems other than CR). The arguments for "old school gaming" in these pdfs seem to better describe AD&D 1e (and maybe white Box OD&D).
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 06, 2022, 02:20:11 AM
On a more general basis, OSR game design tends to strongly resist the use of metacurrency and metagame player agency, with a heavy emphasis on the "Gamist" dimension of the "Game/Narrative/Simulation" paradigm and the "Fortune" aspect of the "Drama/Fortune/Karma" paradigm; the only effect the players can have on the gameworld or the game situation is through the actions of their characters, and the outcomes of those actions as determined by the system and by the GM's interpretation. Resource management, combination of dissimilar assets, and a good head to select optimal approaches in varying situations, judge odds and evaluate pace of decision are all critical elements to good performance in-game.
I like this portion, although I see resource management as optional. :D
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement. Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either. Just curious what people's thoughts were.
Originally, it was about the freedom that came with DIY necessity that came with the earlier games.
Now, sadly, it has become an advertising gimmick to sell retroclones and a way to discriminate against other games that are not based upon 0D&D. For example, it has been told to me that while Classic Traveller is Old School, it is not Old School Revival because it is not 0D&D based.
The new school embraces wish fulfillment of the players on the excuse of "the rule of fun."
The OSR restores the roleplaying game as a resource management game.
At the time the term "old school" as a colloquialism finally trickled into the unhip RPG community, at least in my region, it was the 2E era, there was some hot edition warring between 1E and 2E. The term then had a very clear meaning. It mainly meant AD&D 1st Ed specifically--OD&D and BECMI was largely ignored in the edition wars--and as far as outside D&D, it referred to out of print RPGs published prior to 2E.
Understand, the band Nickelback first formed 27 years ago. They get played now on the Classic Rock stations right along side of Led Zeppelin. They are clearly not the same style of music. They don't have the same feel. When "classic rock" became a label for radio stations, that meant Zeppelin and Floyd and so on. The term may have originally meant "old rock" but it became associated with a specific genre. Nickelback is not part of that genre. It's old rock, sure. I'd just never call it classic rock.
The point is, even though the term originally referred to a relative chronology, it coalesced into a fixed thing and does not really change as time goes forward.
So why does Nickelback get played on the classic rock station? I don't know. Probably because they're really popular and because you can make an argument, albeit a disingenuous one, for them being classic rock now because they have 27 year old music. And you're going to get the same thing with OSR. You've got a popular OSR surge. Game fans and designers want to be part of that wave. As long as they can give a plausible justification that what they're doing is old school, they're going to run with it regardless of truth or accuracy.
For RPGs, 3E is not old school. And here's the tough pill to swallow: 2E is NOT old school. A big part of what makes that one tough is 1E and 2E are perhaps the most mechanically similar versions of D&D. But I would say that's exactly what makes it a great case study. Because so much is the same, you can better isolate the variables of what has changed. Compare the differences of those two games, and you can get some sense of what makes old school different from not old school.
What it's not is THAC0, hit points, six attributes, etc--all of those things exist in both 1E and 2E.
But here's a difference. The illusionist in 1E is a unique class. In 2E, it's a byproduct of a system of allowing wizards to specialize in a school of magic.
For that matter, even if you want to closely examine the differences in hp or THAC0 from 1E to 2E, you'll note that 2E did away with the 2HD at first level for ranger and gave them the same d10 hit dice as all fighter types. The hit tables, which did not always perfectly fit a formula, was replaced with something formulaic. A wizard's THAC0 drops by exactly one point exactly every 3 levels.
You go from having a thin PHB and thick DMG in 1E, to the PHB being thicker than the DMG in 2E.
On the sillier side of things, you even get pronoun fuckery, where 1E uses "he or she" "him or her" and 2E just uses he/him. And it's not like they just went ahead and used the masculine exclusively. They highlighted the fact by including a section on pronoun use.
To be sure, it's not like 2E just magically appeared out of thin air. A lot of the changes had been under way in the pages of Dragon in the latter 1E years. Which brings me to another data point on usage of the term "old school." Is near as I can tell, the term became popularized at the time in hip hop culture. Old school rap generally referred to music produced between 1979 and 1983. And damn do those years mark pretty significant times in D&D. In 1983 you get Mentzer basic and expert, but companion wouldn't come until 84. BECMI was not complete and did not have any kind of skill system as of 1983. Much like early 1E didn't have non-weapon proficiencies, those only coming in later supplements. On the 1979 front, of course 1979 is the first time you have the complete set of core books needed to play 1E.
Whenever an earlier game got mentioned back when the term "old school" became a thing in RPG circles, it would be referred to as "waaay old school." Which of course is still old school, WOSR?
The 1979-1983 timeframe includes a pretty wide variety of RPGs, so no, you don't just have to do D&D clones. Basic Role-Playing, MERP, Rolemaster, Palladium Fantasy, and Warhammer are all published in this time frame. It's not going to be perfect. It's rough guides. But for such a relatively small slice of time to really nail the images conjured up by "old school" that well, I have to think there's something to it.
OSR is whatever OD&D fans want at that microsecond so they can shake their stick at yunguns. Not that yunguns don't need a stick shaken at them, but what the hell OSR is is completly inconsistent and is generally more mired in nostalgia as well as bitterness.
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 07, 2022, 10:00:09 AM
At the time the term "old school" as a colloquialism finally trickled into the unhip RPG community, at least in my region, it was the 2E era, there was some hot edition warring between 1E and 2E. The term then had a very clear meaning. It mainly meant AD&D 1st Ed specifically--OD&D and BECMI was largely ignored in the edition wars--and as far as outside D&D, it referred to out of print RPGs published prior to 2E.
Understand, the band Nickelback first formed 27 years ago. They get played now on the Classic Rock stations right along side of Led Zeppelin. They are clearly not the same style of music. They don't have the same feel. When "classic rock" became a label for radio stations, that meant Zeppelin and Floyd and so on. The term may have originally meant "old rock" but it became associated with a specific genre. Nickelback is not part of that genre. It's old rock, sure. I'd just never call it classic rock.
The point is, even though the term originally referred to a relative chronology, it coalesced into a fixed thing and does not really change as time goes forward.
So why does Nickelback get played on the classic rock station? I don't know. Probably because they're really popular and because you can make an argument, albeit a disingenuous one, for them being classic rock now because they have 27 year old music. And you're going to get the same thing with OSR. You've got a popular OSR surge. Game fans and designers want to be part of that wave. As long as they can give a plausible justification that what they're doing is old school, they're going to run with it regardless of truth or accuracy.
For RPGs, 3E is not old school. And here's the tough pill to swallow: 2E is NOT old school. A big part of what makes that one tough is 1E and 2E are perhaps the most mechanically similar versions of D&D. But I would say that's exactly what makes it a great case study. Because so much is the same, you can better isolate the variables of what has changed. Compare the differences of those two games, and you can get some sense of what makes old school different from not old school.
What it's not is THAC0, hit points, six attributes, etc--all of those things exist in both 1E and 2E.
But here's a difference. The illusionist in 1E is a unique class. In 2E, it's a byproduct of a system of allowing wizards to specialize in a school of magic.
For that matter, even if you want to closely examine the differences in hp or THAC0 from 1E to 2E, you'll note that 2E did away with the 2HD at first level for ranger and gave them the same d10 hit dice as all fighter types. The hit tables, which did not always perfectly fit a formula, was replaced with something formulaic. A wizard's THAC0 drops by exactly one point exactly every 3 levels.
You go from having a thin PHB and thick DMG in 1E, to the PHB being thicker than the DMG in 2E.
On the sillier side of things, you even get pronoun fuckery, where 1E uses "he or she" "him or her" and 2E just uses he/him. And it's not like they just went ahead and used the masculine exclusively. They highlighted the fact by including a section on pronoun use.
To be sure, it's not like 2E just magically appeared out of thin air. A lot of the changes had been under way in the pages of Dragon in the latter 1E years. Which brings me to another data point on usage of the term "old school." Is near as I can tell, the term became popularized at the time in hip hop culture. Old school rap generally referred to music produced between 1979 and 1983. And damn do those years mark pretty significant times in D&D. In 1983 you get Mentzer basic and expert, but companion wouldn't come until 84. BECMI was not complete and did not have any kind of skill system as of 1983. Much like early 1E didn't have non-weapon proficiencies, those only coming in later supplements. On the 1979 front, of course 1979 is the first time you have the complete set of core books needed to play 1E.
Whenever an earlier game got mentioned back when the term "old school" became a thing in RPG circles, it would be referred to as "waaay old school." Which of course is still old school, WOSR?
The 1979-1983 timeframe includes a pretty wide variety of RPGs, so no, you don't just have to do D&D clones. Basic Role-Playing, MERP, Rolemaster, Palladium Fantasy, and Warhammer are all published in this time frame. It's not going to be perfect. It's rough guides. But for such a relatively small slice of time to really nail the images conjured up by "old school" that well, I have to think there's something to it.
Very astute and insightful, but it is also entirely centered on D&D.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 07, 2022, 10:23:28 AM
OSR is whatever OD&D fans want at that microsecond so they can shake their stick at yunguns. Not that yunguns don't need a stick shaken at them, but what the hell OSR is is completly inconsistent and is generally more mired in nostalgia as well as bitterness.
It does sound like you've been reading this message board for a while.
What's funny is that my players are all basically 20+ years younger than me, and to a woman (they are all women), they all dislike metacurrency/metagaming. When we did playtest a sci-fi RPG for DwD Studios that used points for metagaming, we all totally forgot about the equivalent of Hero Points or whatever.
OSR principles (e.g., engage with the world first, not the rules) are now widely known and are incorporated into games that do not use the OSR label. The new Twilight 2000 is a perfect example. It is not at all based on D&D and uses a dice pool system, but the rules very much reflect OSR principles and play style.
So, the only place where the OSR label is still useful, in my opinion, is to signify general compatibility with early editions of D&D, such as anything prior to AD&D 2e.
Quote from: rytrasmi on September 07, 2022, 11:23:54 AM
OSR principles (e.g., engage with the world first, not the rules) are now widely known and are incorporated into games that do not use the OSR label. The new Twilight 2000 is a perfect example. It is not at all based on D&D and uses a dice pool system, but the rules very much reflect OSR principles and play style.
So, the only place where the OSR label is still useful, in my opinion, is to signify general compatibility with early editions of D&D, such as anything prior to AD&D 2e.
Like an advertising gimmick.....
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR.
That you can use existing open content to support classic editions of D&D with a full range of work either shared or produced commercially.
A major side effect starting in the late 2000s is that open content plus the ease of use of digital content means that anybody who cares too can pursue whatever project they see fit that could be done with the various classic editions. Most are projects that the original folks that were involved would have never considered.
Another major side effect is reigniting a hobby and an industry centered around the classic editions mainly by showing folks how classic editions rules can work in actual play that is fun and actual works that are good.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement.
This is a fool's game. It boils down to the whims of individual authors or teams/companies. One unique aspect of the OSR compared to other niches of the RPG industry and hobby is that it is not dominated by the creative output of a single author or company like most RPGs.
Out of what is there only Cepheus has approached this for the Traveller RPG. And that is only for non-Third Imperium settings. Mongoose is the dominant player but not dominant creatively due to the legal barriers caused by the Traveller Aid Society 3PP program. Nobody in the Cepheus community is going to lock up their original setting IP behind the gates of that program. This is the reason for Cepheus existence. If Mongoose was more like Pinnacle and Savage Worlds it would dominate Traveller/Cepheus. Mongoose has done some good work in expanding what Traveller covers like with Deepnight Revelation.
While Fate and Savage Worlds have thriving 3P communities around them they are both dominated by Evil Hat and Pinnacle both in sales and creatively.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either.
It only matters what you think about those topic. And if you want to share (or publish), your skill at putting together a coherent presentation. That the strength of the OSR, that anybody can step up to the plate and contribute if they have the time and interest.
For example, my Basic Rules rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG include markdown files of the rulebook and their content is open content under the OGL. Swords & Wizardry has a rtf file that can be downloaded of Swords & Wizardry Core rules. With either of those as a starting point, you can very quickly put together a fairly complete set of rules for your own use or share.
If you want to experience the "true" OSR then I recommend starting with works that are open content, make it clear what is open content, and make it easy to use the open content by sharing files and stuff like that.
For example my Blackmarsh here
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/blackmarsh_srd.zip
Quote from: Jam The MF on September 06, 2022, 02:23:40 AM
Well, to me it is about early versions of D&D and AD&D. But I know some people like to include some of the other early games, which were out before BX, for example; and I don't want to exclude fans of those other games.
Having been involved since it's beginning in the late 2000's, my observations that one definition the OSR could be "Anything involving the classic editions of D&D plus whatever else its participants are interested in." For example, a lot of OSR folks become interested in Dungeon Crawl Classic due to Goodman Game outreach and the quality of the RPG. So you found a fair amount of DCC RPG chatter on OSR sites since its release. The same with the old Pacesetter Games for a while because of Goblinoid Games. This includes stuff that appeal to the same aesthetics as classic D&D but use a different system.
The common theme is that whatever it is it has caught the interest of enough people involved with the classic editions to spark discussion and some creativity.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 01:49:22 PM
I would hope, too, that if there was a winning innovation, such as rolling with advantage/disadvantage (I've read that was a 4E innovation?), it could be adapted it it made the overall game better.
I snagged it for my Majestic Fantasy RPG.
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Majestic%20Fantasy%20Basic%20RPG%20Rev%2010.pdf
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 07, 2022, 12:23:24 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on September 07, 2022, 11:23:54 AM
OSR principles (e.g., engage with the world first, not the rules) are now widely known and are incorporated into games that do not use the OSR label. The new Twilight 2000 is a perfect example. It is not at all based on D&D and uses a dice pool system, but the rules very much reflect OSR principles and play style.
So, the only place where the OSR label is still useful, in my opinion, is to signify general compatibility with early editions of D&D, such as anything prior to AD&D 2e.
Like an advertising gimmick.....
At worst, yes. At best, a signal of compatibility (yeah, in practice this is not always the case).
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 06, 2022, 08:44:00 PM
Now, sadly, it has become an advertising gimmick to sell retroclones and a way to discriminate against other games that are not based upon 0D&D. For example, it has been told to me that while Classic Traveller is Old School, it is not Old School Revival because it is not 0D&D based.
The group that was involved in playing, publishing, and promoting classic editions of Dungeons & Dragons as been criticized for appropriating the use of Old School in OSR since the term gained currency by 2010. There is no "used to be" it always has been about the classic editions of D&D.
First, there are the practical considerations Classic Traveller, Runequest 2e, are not open content. And until the mid-2010s there nothing adjacent that was open content could be leveraged to come up with support for those editions of those RPGs.
Second, many of the older RPGs, never had a break in continuity like classic D&D did. Basic Roleplaying grew out of early Runequest and was still being supported by Chaosium cirica 2010. Mongoose Traveller was also out and well received by the Traveller community circia 2010. Plus the Traveller community was used to radical system changes across editions. The Traveller community were early adopters of the Internet, and Marc Miller gave his explicit approval (within reason) of non-commercial releases supporting any edition except the current one. The two meant that Traveller "fixed" the issue with older editions by the classic edition D&D community was working out how to fix their problem with supporting their favourites.
So yes the OSR is about the classic editions first and foremost. But as I said earlier in this thread, other RPGs and other editions will get roped in from time to time depending on the interests of those involved. I have quite a few posts about Traveller on my blog. Other OSR folks support other systems both old and new.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/search/label/Traveller
And when there is criticism, you will get push back from specific individuals, because what really being asked here is "I think what you are doing is boring or not interesting and I want you pay attention to other things.". That is not a realistic (or polite) ask for what amounts to someone's hobby.
But having said, that there are those who are involved in publishing, promoting, and playing classic editions of D&D that are elitist twits so by all means if that is the case then mock them.
Finally, keep in mind that OSR is an organic term. Nobody came up with it as a trademark. There isn't full agreement on what the R stands for. The reason it caught on was not that it stood for Old School Renaissance/Revival/Ruckes/Resurgence because it formed the initials OSR. That was the fun part of using the term. It was close enough to TSR for people to get it. It could be worked into a variety of fun logos for people to play around with.
But some inside and outside of the OSR took it way to seriously. If you noticed that from the start very few, myself included, used it as a trademark on our product or even promotion. Why? Because beyond being associated with classic editions rules, it failed to describe what our stuff was about as individual authors or teams. I don't use it because my stuff is about sandbox campaigns, the world outside of the dungeon, and trashing the setting. Which is not the same as Raggi's weird horror, which is not the same as (so forth and so on).
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 07, 2022, 10:30:25 AM
Very astute and insightful, but it is also entirely centered on D&D.
That doesn't make any sense at all, "entirely centered."
Something either is centered or it isn't, entirely doesn't mean anything. And if it's entirely, then it's centered by default, and centered is redundant.
If what you really meant to say is "entirely" you're factually incorrect, as I listed 5 other RPGs by name and alluded to countless others.
And if what you really meant to say is "centered" then I think you're in for a bad time when you realize that D&D was then and is now the center of the entire industry.
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 07, 2022, 01:02:16 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 07, 2022, 10:30:25 AM
Very astute and insightful, but it is also entirely centered on D&D.
That doesn't make any sense at all, "entirely centered."
Something either is centered or it isn't, entirely doesn't mean anything. And if it's entirely, then it's centered by default, and centered is redundant.
If what you really meant to say is "entirely" you're factually incorrect, as I listed 5 other RPGs by name and alluded to countless others.
And if what you really meant to say is "centered" then I think you're in for a bad time when you realize that D&D was then and is now the center of the entire industry.
Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Core ideas you ask?
Several reasons come to mind.
1. Nostalgia. Some grey haired players want their old games back.
2. To play those old games, but write them better/clearer than the original authors. Things like the proper use of words like "or" when the writer should have used an "and". Or even to give a gameplay example. So, they fixed the ambiguity of certain things to please rules lawyers, or just people who are perfectionists.
3. To "fix" the rules by using their own set of house rules instead of the official rules. A game like Chis Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy is based on Basic/Expert rules, but now using ascending armor class, and the core rulebook splits races and classes. That used to be a thing. A Dwarf was it's own character class.
4. To write your own game, but rather than starting from scratch you go with what you know. Six ability scores (Str, Dex, Con, Wiz, Int, Cha), you have an armor class, combat is a 1D20 roll to beat those armor class, but then we change anything or everything. RPG Pundit's own games are like this. Star Adventurer is very much a 1D20 vs armor class, but it's space opera, and spells per day are out, and a skill roll for using a psychic power are used instead. Also, leveling up gives minimal hit points, but you do roll on a random table for your level bonus. It could be more skills, or improvement to an existing skill, more combat bonuses, or more psychic powers.
Or games like The Black Hack where all dice rolls are under one of your six ability scores. If you're attacked, roll under an ability score to avoid damage. If you attack, roll under your ability score to hit the other guy.
Or Operation White Box. It's D&D rules, but it's set in Europe during WW-2. You play soldiers or secret agents trying to defeat the Germans. Supernatural stuff is absent.
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 07, 2022, 10:00:09 AM
At the time the term "old school" as a colloquialism finally trickled into the unhip RPG community, at least in my region, it was the 2E era, there was some hot edition warring between 1E and 2E. The term then had a very clear meaning. It mainly meant AD&D 1st Ed specifically--OD&D and BECMI was largely ignored in the edition wars--and as far as outside D&D, it referred to out of print RPGs published prior to 2E.
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more? I hold a definition for rules systems, can you run B2 - Keep on the Borderlands without modifications?
This does narrow the scope significantly and really is only needed in the context of D&D derivatives since it's the only one that continuously includes breaking compatibility with older editions as a design goal in the last 20 years.
I mean Stars Without Number/ Worlds without Number are both considered OSR but have feats, multiclassing, effectively healing surges, skill lists, races separate from classes, ascending AC, effectively at will/encounter/daily powers, but is favored pretty well.
I mean I love it.
Quote from: Palleon on September 07, 2022, 08:20:32 PM
How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more?
Hint: Nobody ever agreed on what OSR meant speaking as someone involved from before the term was coined.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 06, 2022, 01:24:33 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 06, 2022, 02:31:23 AM
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement. Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either. Just curious what people's thoughts were.
The core idea, IMO anyway, is looking back at early games (especially pre-2nd edition AD&D) and giving "old" ideas a second look. Understanding why they used the rules they did. Ideas like encumbrance, xp for gp, level limits for demihumans, and the modes of play they used.
We had gotten to the point where it was a given that the "old" rules were not-fun, stupid, etc, new players may not have even known about them, and I think they deserved a fair second chance.
Especially if that "fair second chance" is willing to admit that some of the old rules really are still "not-fun, stupid, etc,." and feels comfortable dumping them. Those that blindly clone without doing so get no respect from me.
I think that stuff can be handled with optional rule inclusion.
Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 10:07:46 PM
Quote from: Palleon on September 07, 2022, 08:20:32 PM
How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more?
Hint: Nobody ever agreed on what OSR meant speaking as someone involved from before the term was coined.
When was the "OSR" term coined? I don't think it was in widespread use yet in the mid-late 2000s.
"[Certain] old games are good."
Anything beyond that ... three OSR/BrOSR/retro/sympathetic types, six opinions. :)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.
I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.
1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.
Games like:
Through Sunken Lands, Beyond the Wall, and Hyperborea pretty much sum up why the OSR is so good and the principles of the movement. YMMV... Of course.
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.
I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.
1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.
There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
Well... There was a release of Runequest two or something relatively recently.
But systems that are D100-based don't apply to the OSR anyway, as it's all about utilizing and adapting the 'post' d20 type mechanics from early D&D.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition)
https://openquestrpg.com/srd/ (https://openquestrpg.com/srd/)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition)
https://openquestrpg.com/srd/ (https://openquestrpg.com/srd/)
This is it... Also, most of the d100 mechanics have stayed pretty stagnant (and I mean that in a good way).
Open Quest is great, incidentally. There's also 'Magic World' that pretty much stays with the older style too.
And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 09, 2022, 12:31:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition)
https://openquestrpg.com/srd/ (https://openquestrpg.com/srd/)
This is it... Also, most of the d100 mechanics have stayed pretty stagnant (and I mean that in a good way).
Open Quest is great, incidentally. There's also 'Magic World' that pretty much stays with the older style too.
And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.
There was also an Open Cthulhu, but BRP or someone else made it close it. Not sure what's the state on that project.
Okay, Found their SRD, but not sure if I can share it without breaking the piracy rules. But I also found 5 other SRDs for lovecraftian d100 games, linked below:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/408170/Cthulhu-Eternal--Age-of-Revolutions-SRD (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/408170/Cthulhu-Eternal--Age-of-Revolutions-SRD)
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/384108/Cthulhu-Eternal--Victorian-Era-SRD (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/384108/Cthulhu-Eternal--Victorian-Era-SRD)
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/384109/Cthulhu-Eternal--Jazz-Age-SRD (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/384109/Cthulhu-Eternal--Jazz-Age-SRD)
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/389792/Cthulhu-Eternal--Cold-War-SRD (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/389792/Cthulhu-Eternal--Cold-War-SRD)
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/384110/Cthulhu-Eternal--Modern-Age-SRD (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/384110/Cthulhu-Eternal--Modern-Age-SRD)
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.
I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.
1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.
There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.
Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.
I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.
1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.
There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.
Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.
How dare you exclude non D&D based games from the definition of something that started as old D&D editions based games only!
Don't you know you're hurting the fee fees of those other games!?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.
I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.
1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.
There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.
Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.
How dare you exclude non D&D based games from the definition of something that started as old D&D editions based games only!
Don't you know you're hurting the fee fees of those other games!?
And thus it was spoke that there shall be no other games except those based upon D&D, amen. There can only be diversity bounded by D&D rules! - Wow, that almost sounds like something the Woke would say....
Never mind that there were still a lot of popular games in the past that are still being played today that don't continue to suckle off the teat of D&D.....
Oh, wait. That's right. To you they are not REAL OSR.....
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 02:23:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.
I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.
1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.
There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.
Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.
How dare you exclude non D&D based games from the definition of something that started as old D&D editions based games only!
Don't you know you're hurting the fee fees of those other games!?
And thus it was spoke that there shall be no other games except those based upon D&D, amen. There can only be diversity bounded by D&D rules! - Wow, that almost sounds like something the Woke would say....
Never mind that there were still a lot of popular games in the past that are still being played today that don't continue to suckle off the teat of D&D.....
Oh, wait. That's right. To you they are not REAL OSR.....
For someone who pretends to be very smart you're really dumb.
ALL definitions have to be exclusionary, otherwise they don't define shit.
Yes OSR means based on old D&D rules. No, it doesn't include other old rules/games. Just like the definition of woman can't include men or females of other species.
Because to define something you have to exclude everything that's not it, else the definition doesn't define shit.
Why not include old games from the early 2000s? Aren't you excluding those other games as not really Old School?
Why not include Toon in the definition of lovecraftian games? Aren't you excluding it?
I'll repeat myself: For someone who thinks of himself as very smurt you sure are dumb.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:47:44 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 02:23:11 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 02:05:56 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: Lunamancer on September 08, 2022, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on September 07, 2022, 06:54:41 PM
This does touch on a key point: "old school" gaming in general is not necessarily the same as the OSR specifically, although there is a lot of overlap. In my experience the OSR specifically does mostly refer to D&D retroclones of one type or another, although retroclones for other pre-1990 systems are showing up these days.
Well, yeah. It's not OSR without the R. There has to be a certain critical mass to call it a revival or a renaissance. If we had a massive movement of people playing an updated, cloned, or modified version of, say, Star Frontiers, I could see people calling that OSR.
I think D&D has a few major factors that makes it easier to get that critical mass.
1) The d20 OGL,
2) The perception some hold that the current D&D license holders are ruining the game,
3) That it was as popular as it was.
There doesn't seem to be much demand for an OSR for other games. I don't know if it's just that things like Call of Cthulhu or Cyberpunk haven't had the kind of edition wars that D&D has, or if it's down to chaosium, r talsorian, cubicle 7 etc not being quite so much a pack of gibbering baboons as the folks at wizards appear to be.
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
If your definition is exclusionary of any game other than D&D.
Classic Traveller is doing very well if you go by the numbers on DriveThruRPG (the only sales numbers easily accessible). A little quick research shows that R. Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Zeta are doing comparable sales as well. If you want to only use retroclones, then Cepheus Engine is also doing pretty good in sales.
How dare you exclude non D&D based games from the definition of something that started as old D&D editions based games only!
Don't you know you're hurting the fee fees of those other games!?
And thus it was spoke that there shall be no other games except those based upon D&D, amen. There can only be diversity bounded by D&D rules! - Wow, that almost sounds like something the Woke would say....
Never mind that there were still a lot of popular games in the past that are still being played today that don't continue to suckle off the teat of D&D.....
Oh, wait. That's right. To you they are not REAL OSR.....
For someone who pretends to be very smart you're really dumb.
ALL definitions have to be exclusionary, otherwise they don't define shit.
Yes OSR means based on old D&D rules. No, it doesn't include other old rules/games. Just like the definition of woman can't include men or females of other species.
Because to define something you have to exclude everything that's not it, else the definition doesn't define shit.
Why not include old games from the early 2000s? Aren't you excluding those other games as not really Old School?
Why not include Toon in the definition of lovecraftian games? Aren't you excluding it?
I'll repeat myself: For someone who thinks of himself as very smurt you sure are dumb.
The original definition of OSR wasn't exclusionary to only mean D&D derived rules - it only became so later on.
But hey, when all you got for a rebuttal is obfuscation and insults, then at least I know I'm smarter than you.
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 04:22:01 PM
The original definition of OSR wasn't exclusionary to only mean D&D derived rules - it only became so later on.
But hey, when all you got for a rebuttal is obfuscation and insults, then at least I know I'm smarter than you.
Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 12:27:51 PM
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR.
That you can use existing open content to support classic editions of D&D with a full range of work either shared or produced commercially.
A major side effect starting in the late 2000s is that open content plus the ease of use of digital content means that anybody who cares too can pursue whatever project they see fit that could be done with the various classic editions. Most are projects that the original folks that were involved would have never considered.
Another major side effect is reigniting a hobby and an industry centered around the classic editions mainly by showing folks how classic editions rules can work in actual play that is fun and actual works that are good.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement.
This is a fool's game. It boils down to the whims of individual authors or teams/companies. One unique aspect of the OSR compared to other niches of the RPG industry and hobby is that it is not dominated by the creative output of a single author or company like most RPGs.
Out of what is there only Cepheus has approached this for the Traveller RPG. And that is only for non-Third Imperium settings. Mongoose is the dominant player but not dominant creatively due to the legal barriers caused by the Traveller Aid Society 3PP program. Nobody in the Cepheus community is going to lock up their original setting IP behind the gates of that program. This is the reason for Cepheus existence. If Mongoose was more like Pinnacle and Savage Worlds it would dominate Traveller/Cepheus. Mongoose has done some good work in expanding what Traveller covers like with Deepnight Revelation.
While Fate and Savage Worlds have thriving 3P communities around them they are both dominated by Evil Hat and Pinnacle both in sales and creatively.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either.
It only matters what you think about those topic. And if you want to share (or publish), your skill at putting together a coherent presentation. That the strength of the OSR, that anybody can step up to the plate and contribute if they have the time and interest.
For example, my Basic Rules rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG include markdown files of the rulebook and their content is open content under the OGL. Swords & Wizardry has a rtf file that can be downloaded of Swords & Wizardry Core rules. With either of those as a starting point, you can very quickly put together a fairly complete set of rules for your own use or share.
If you want to experience the "true" OSR then I recommend starting with works that are open content, make it clear what is open content, and make it easy to use the open content by sharing files and stuff like that.
For example my Blackmarsh here
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/blackmarsh_srd.zip
Hint, no you're not smarter than a doorknob, much less myself.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition)
https://openquestrpg.com/srd/ (https://openquestrpg.com/srd/)
See, this is why I started posting here: So people can tell me about games I didn't know about.
@GeekyBugle
Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 10:07:46 PM
Quote from: Palleon on September 07, 2022, 08:20:32 PM
How can there be core tenants, if no one even agrees on what OSR means any more?
Hint: Nobody ever agreed on what OSR meant speaking as someone involved from before the term was coined.
In other words...
(https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/85afa5713d678a3c26688e204c57bc88e31229a50b633ef8909577669afc4440_1.jpg)
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 09, 2022, 12:31:32 PM
And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.
If you think of it, I wouldn't mind knowing what it is. I was actually considering making a post asking if that sort of thing was already out there.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 05:37:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 12:26:38 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM
I would have thought someone would have made an OSR like retro version of runequest by now, but as far as I know, no such thing exists
Isn't OpenQuest exactly that?
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/347827/OpenQuest-3rd-Edition)
https://openquestrpg.com/srd/ (https://openquestrpg.com/srd/)
See, this is why I started posting here: So people can tell me about games I didn't know about.
You're welcome.
Below that I posted about a not CoC retroclone that's OGL.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 09, 2022, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on September 09, 2022, 04:22:01 PM
The original definition of OSR wasn't exclusionary to only mean D&D derived rules - it only became so later on.
But hey, when all you got for a rebuttal is obfuscation and insults, then at least I know I'm smarter than you.
Quote from: estar on September 07, 2022, 12:27:51 PM
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR.
That you can use existing open content to support classic editions of D&D with a full range of work either shared or produced commercially.
A major side effect starting in the late 2000s is that open content plus the ease of use of digital content means that anybody who cares too can pursue whatever project they see fit that could be done with the various classic editions. Most are projects that the original folks that were involved would have never considered.
Another major side effect is reigniting a hobby and an industry centered around the classic editions mainly by showing folks how classic editions rules can work in actual play that is fun and actual works that are good.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
I was interested to see what people considered the core ideas or principles behind OSR. With new games coming out, I'd say it's significantly more than a nostalgia movement.
This is a fool's game. It boils down to the whims of individual authors or teams/companies. One unique aspect of the OSR compared to other niches of the RPG industry and hobby is that it is not dominated by the creative output of a single author or company like most RPGs.
Out of what is there only Cepheus has approached this for the Traveller RPG. And that is only for non-Third Imperium settings. Mongoose is the dominant player but not dominant creatively due to the legal barriers caused by the Traveller Aid Society 3PP program. Nobody in the Cepheus community is going to lock up their original setting IP behind the gates of that program. This is the reason for Cepheus existence. If Mongoose was more like Pinnacle and Savage Worlds it would dominate Traveller/Cepheus. Mongoose has done some good work in expanding what Traveller covers like with Deepnight Revelation.
While Fate and Savage Worlds have thriving 3P communities around them they are both dominated by Evil Hat and Pinnacle both in sales and creatively.
Quote from: Zaph on September 06, 2022, 12:12:49 AM
Also, one could just choose to pare down character classes or ignore the redefining of orcs and what have you, so I don't think it's just those elements either.
It only matters what you think about those topic. And if you want to share (or publish), your skill at putting together a coherent presentation. That the strength of the OSR, that anybody can step up to the plate and contribute if they have the time and interest.
For example, my Basic Rules rules for the Majestic Fantasy RPG include markdown files of the rulebook and their content is open content under the OGL. Swords & Wizardry has a rtf file that can be downloaded of Swords & Wizardry Core rules. With either of those as a starting point, you can very quickly put together a fairly complete set of rules for your own use or share.
If you want to experience the "true" OSR then I recommend starting with works that are open content, make it clear what is open content, and make it easy to use the open content by sharing files and stuff like that.
For example my Blackmarsh here
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/blackmarsh_srd.zip
Hint, no you're not smarter than a doorknob, much less myself.
At least I read before I quote......
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 09, 2022, 05:39:31 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 09, 2022, 12:31:32 PM
And there's also a direct D&D type clone using the D100 mechanics instead, but it's basically a dungeon crawler with the old races elves, dwarves, and what have you. I can't think of the name of it at the mo'.
If you think of it, I wouldn't mind knowing what it is. I was actually considering making a post asking if that sort of thing was already out there.
I'll have a look and get back to you... I know it's on drivthru. :)
EDIT: Found it.Classic Fantasy by Design Mechanism:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/180255/Classic-Fantasy--TDM500?