Quote from: Simlasa;917511They needed it if they were to be considered complete... but they're not complete, never intended to be complete... which is one of the major complaints I hear against them... that folks wanted a 40K RPG and got bits and pieces scattered around that instead.

Explain why a game where you play members of the Imperial Inquisition, including possibly Ordo Xenos inquisitors, needed rules for playing Eldar.  Explain why a game where you play Space Marines who are specially trained to kill xenos needs rules for Eldar PCs.  These games obviously do not need such rules at all.  Such rules make some sense for Rogue Trader but they are hardly needed even there.  None of the games need such rules to be complete.

"to be considered complete"?  Come on.  Let's not do the passive voice thing.  We are talking about what you felt it should have not what it needed.

I never really liked the fact that FFG made the design decision to make Dark Heresy, Only War and other WH 40k properties incompatible with one another. Although they do use the same basic D100 rules, it seemed all very haphazard and inconsiderate to their fans.

Given how players of the wargame get fiercely attached to their chosen factions, the RPG line really, really should have done more to provide proper support supplements or full blown games for the most approachable non-human factions (eldar, tau, orks). The frustration was especially palpable among eldar players in my circles.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917514Explain why a game where you play members of the Imperial Inquisition, including possibly Ordo Xenos inquisitors, needed rules for playing Eldar.  Explain why a game where you play Space Marines who are specially trained to kill xenos needs rules for Eldar PCs.  These games obviously do not need such rules at all.  Such rules make some sense for Rogue Trader but they are hardly needed even there.  None of the games need such rules to be complete.

"to be considered complete"?  Come on.  Let's not do the passive voice thing.  We are talking about what you felt it should have not what it needed.

Sure: Members of the Inquisition and Rogue Trader captains alike have long been depicted with having xenos members of their retinues... something that has a lot more precedent than the existance of bound demonhosts, for example. Yet somehow the idea of playing a space elf... which have a long and convoluted history of working with (and against) humanity in the setting is somehow not permitted, while demonhosts... a new and, as far as I can tell not terribly popular character concept (Yes, yes... I'm stretching a bit here... whatever)... is far 'better'.

Its dumb regarding canon. Its dumb regarding marketing.  People really like to play space elves. I've had players get excited to play a 40k RPG (DH or RT... only two I've used), only to back out when they found no space elves. So much so that I adapted the scant available rules just about the time I gave up on the rule set as being a bit to clunky...

Quote from: Crüesader;917410I would like that, but the rumor has it that 8th edition is coming.  I'm not sure how they're going to go about that, but hopefully it doesn't cause too much of an issue.  I think they're really focused on trying to bring a lot of new players in right now (DoW 3 helps).  When that happens, you might see the game drop.

Well its no surprise to me that they are trying so hard to get new people in as my under standing was that they where for several years now selling people an army for 500$ and caring nothing about retention and at GW pricing i have a funny feeling that people are getting sick of the shit.
And i say this as a guy who dont play 40k for those reasons 40k pricing being a big one.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917522Given how players of the wargame get fiercely attached to their chosen factions, the RPG line really, really should have done more to provide proper support supplements or full blown games for the most approachable non-human factions (eldar, tau, orks). The frustration was especially palpable among eldar players in my circles.

The games were all focused on the Imperium though.  Even Black Crusade focused on character that had come from the Imperium and the Imperium as an enemy.  The only one that had any reason to include rules for Eldar PCs was Rogue Trader and it was peripheral to that one at best.

Quote from: Spike;917532(Yes, yes... I'm stretching a bit here

You are stretching way more than a bit.  That was always portrayed as an out there unapproved thing that only a few radical Inquisitors got away with.  It makes some sense in Rogue Trader but you can only put so much stuff in a book and the spaceship rules too up a lot of space.

Quote from: Spike;917532Its dumb regarding canon. Its dumb regarding marketing.  People really like to play space elves. I've had players get excited to play a 40k RPG (DH or RT... only two I've used), only to back out when they found no space elves. So much so that I adapted the scant available rules just about the time I gave up on the rule set as being a bit to clunky...

There are a few very vocal people who were mad about not being able to play space elves.  You happen to know some of them.  None of that means that there was a large part of the customer base that was yearning for that.  Not having rules for Eldar does not make a game about inquisitorial acolytes incomplete.  Such a game does not need such rule even if some people wanted to see them.  It might have been shoehorned in but it's hardly incomplete without it.

The game did not give some people what they wanted.  That's fine.  It's a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking or buying a game.  It doesn't make the game incomplete though.  It doesn't mean the game needed those things.  It just means the player wanted them.

Are you suggesting that having a pet demon is more acceptable to the Inquisition than having a pet space elf?  

You are, aren't you!




I'll point out that FFG put out rules for having pet orks and kroot over having rules for playable space elves.  In terms of canon the Orks are far more intolerable as xenos races, and in terms of the fan base, space lizard birds are far more marginal than the pretty aliens.

To be blunt, I'm not even much of a fan of space elves, and it still felt like a deliberate slap in the face from the game designers.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917540The games were all focused on the Imperium though.  Even Black Crusade focused on character that had come from the Imperium and the Imperium as an enemy.  The only one that had any reason to include rules for Eldar PCs was Rogue Trader and it was peripheral to that one at best.

Actually, what disappointed me more than anything with Deathwatch and Dark Heresy- There wasn't much to work with in terms of 'known' Xenos races.  Sure, some of the lesser-known ones are very cool- no one says a species has to be a military threat in order to be a threat.  But I'd have loved to investigate a tomb world, or a dead Craftworld, or even have a precision strike against a warboss.  The game was sorely lacking in the other races.  A simple template for Eldar, Necrons, Ork, etc. could have helped players scratch the itch if they wanted to be one of those types.  

Quote from: yosemitemike;917540The game did not give some people what they wanted.  That's fine.  It's a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking or buying a game.  It doesn't make the game incomplete though.  It doesn't mean the game needed those things.  It just means the player wanted them.

I'd say Dark Heresy felt more 'incomplete' because it was jam-packed with fluff, and a lot of the more useful stuff was in another book.  IMHO, it would have been wiser to have a core book that focused less on 'Heretics' and more space for the threats that the Ordo Xenos faces.  Even then, Deathwatch sorely lacks usable stuff for most 'Known' Xenos races- and hell, they didn't even have Blackshields or half of the First Founding Chapters as an option in the core book.  

I mean, I didn't do much with the Deathwatch book, but I've got the Dark Heresy book and I'm pretty sure I can rattle off what isn't in the book.  Want to investigate a Necron Tomb and snag yourself one of those cool Xenophase blades?  Nope.  Want to do a covert raid on a Homonculi's lab in Comorragh?  Nope.  Want to go toe-to-toe with an Ork Weirdboy?  Nope.  Want to gunfight a Tau battlesuit?  Nope.  Want to extract soulgems from a dead Eldar Craftworld?  Nope. Hell, I'm not even sure they had fucking Genestealers.  They probably did, but it doesn't stand out.

Kind of why I hope that whoever gets ahold of the IP next, they're smarter about it. A formula for converting the wargame stat lines and rules over to an RPG PC/NPC would be great.  

I mean, come on- you know you wanna fight this:

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And this:

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And probably also this:

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Yeah, that's an Ork Weirdboy dressed like a Farseer.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;917517I never really liked the fact that FFG made the design decision to make Dark Heresy, Only War and other WH 40k properties incompatible with one another. Although they do use the same basic D100 rules, it seemed all very haphazard and inconsiderate to their fans.

I fully agree. At least they learned from that mistake when doing SW.

Oh give it time. I'm sure that Modiphius will get the rights so that they can add another feather to their cap right next to Star Trek, Conan and Mutant Chronicles. 2d20 FOREVAAAAAAHHHH

I'd love to see a new edition of Mordheim, assuming they didn't fuck it up. But more than anything, I hope they fix the prices. Good lord, I shouldn't be paying 50 bucks for a tank or a Tau battlesuit. And the Guard, man, they cut the model size in the troops box by half, tried to charge us the same and STILL haven't given it the options found in the Codex.

As opposed to Codex : Fursona, which has one of the best troop boxes in the entire game line.

This is blasphemy, and I realise some GW elitists are going to want to castrate me with a rusty band saw and force-fed me Drano for saying this... but I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience. This is anecdotal, but I meet a LOT of people who lovingly look at GW art or figures but never buy the games because "I don't have the time/money to commit" (I live in an economically depressed rust belt area where many if not most people work two jobs, so I believe them) or "...But I don't paint". A Warhammer-compatible game with a price point comparable to HeroClix that somebody could just buy and play out of the box would do quite well here, I trow.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures.

What the...?
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Why bother with pre-painted minis? Why not go straight to the next step and just make videos of attractive, witty 'celebrities' playing the games and sell tickets to watch?
"I'd never find the time to sit down and actually play a game so I appreciate it that I can watch a really good one of talented people, with nicely painted figs and great terrain, while I'm eating dinner or beating my kids."
Aren't all hobbies becoming spectator sports these days?

GW got out of making fun, enjoyable things like...over a decade ago.  The Codex death-march (which is a cool sounding title unto it's own but I digress), the edition death-march, goddamn ridiculous shit like their "hobby tools" that only a seriously damaged person would even consider, paints that dry out if you leave the cap open for a nanosecond (or dry out in 3 weeks regardless, compare this with the Citadel paints from 1992 that I still have that are still completely fresh), ruining the LotR line, Finecast - it's all shit, all of what they do is shit.  They're a bad company run by people who piss on their die hard customers and tell them it's "Codex Yellow" rain and charge them extra for it.