Quote from: yosemitemike;917634You can't put every possible thing in the 40k universe in the corebook of a game.  There's just too much 40k fluff.  Putting in those rules (and it would have also required careers for them) would have taken up a significant chunk of the book and they would have to cut something else to fit it.  There was a lot of flavor text and description but I think that sort of thing is important to someone coming to the game who doesn't know the tabletop fluff like we do.  Really doing the Eldar with proper rules for them would have taken up at least as much space as the existing character creation rules for something that is, at best, marginal to the game.

Dude, in Deathwatch- do you have any idea how much space in that book is dedicated to the fucking Jericho reach?  An obscene amount, more so than I cared about.  A shit-ton of material in the book was not setting fluff, but sub-setting fluff.  Something that corralled you into one section of the Galaxy.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917634There were enemies to fight.  Every enemy wasn't in there but that's just not practical now.  How many pages would fleshed out rules for all of those races take up?

We got Lacrymoles.  And Slaugth.  Hang on, hear me out dude- I get it that they couldn't cram everything into the book.  But there were zero rules for any of the main races.  I get that 'to a new player' those things are important, but to anyone remotely familiar with the setting the reaction was like- wait, what?

EDIT:  There was some stuff about Tyranids and Tau, but it was by no means expansive.  I looked again.

Like, I'm not trying to butt heads with you.  I'm not even saying you're 'wrong'.  I'm saying the product was 'incomplete' in the sense that yeah, it was functional... but imagine a new Grand Theft Auto game where you can only do stuff in one part of the city and there are no side missions.  

I don't believe in saying there's a problem without saying there's a solution.  So, Solution:

Make the 40k RPG setting a multiple-book thing.

A Core Rulebook for Astartes, Inquisitorial Agents, Rogue Trader crew, and Guard Specialties.  Include all the 'classes', weaponry, and basic rules- sort of like Pathfinder's done with their Core Rulebook.

Secondary book for Xenos/Heretics/Daemons that facilitates either NPC's, Enemies, or even PC's.

Adventures and setting stuff can be in other books altogether.

Quote from: Crüesader;917669Dude, in Deathwatch- do you have any idea how much space in that book is dedicated to the fucking Jericho reach?  An obscene amount, more so than I cared about.  A shit-ton of material in the book was not setting fluff, but sub-setting fluff.  Something that corralled you into one section of the Galaxy.

It's just an area for people to play in.  You can't very well cover the whole galaxy.  You weren't corralled there but it was the easiest place to start since there was already material to use.  

Quote from: Crüesader;917669We got Lacrymoles.  And Slaugth.  Hang on, hear me out dude- I get it that they couldn't cram everything into the book.  But there were zero rules for any of the main races.  I get that 'to a new player' those things are important, but to anyone remotely familiar with the setting the reaction was like- wait, what?

They kind of have to assume that people are not familiar with the setting in an RPG book.  The sourcebooks added more stuff and eventually Orc Freebooter PCs.  I would have started with the better known races as enemies but maybe they just wanted something different.  

Quote from: Crüesader;917669Like, I'm not trying to butt heads with you.  I'm not even saying you're 'wrong'.  I'm saying the product was 'incomplete' in the sense that yeah, it was functional... but imagine a new Grand Theft Auto game where you can only do stuff in one part of the city and there are no side missions.  

They just concentrated on one part of the galaxy to give people some place to start.  There was mention of other places but there's too much galaxy in 40k to give you any useful information about anything but a small part of it.  It's still a pretty big area.

Quote from: Crüesader;917669Make the 40k RPG setting a multiple-book thing.

A Core Rulebook for Astartes, Inquisitorial Agents, Rogue Trader crew, and Guard Specialties.  Include all the 'classes', weaponry, and basic rules- sort of like Pathfinder's done with their Core Rulebook.

Secondary book for Xenos/Heretics/Daemons that facilitates either NPC's, Enemies, or even PC's.

Adventures and setting stuff can be in other books altogether.

I think they wanted each core book to be self-contained and usable on its own.  I can see that.  A lot of people bitch about needing to buy multiple books.  You can't please everyone.

TBH I was always fairly lukewarm on the the 40K stuff, as it always felt a bit too stylised and over serious to me - but losing WFRP is a shame. It carried an iconic and fairly unique career system, and a now long-out of-print Enemy Within Campaign that may be lost to gamers for a long time.

Quote from: Spinachcat;917621Khorne damn us all. Being a Warhammer fan is so fucked up.

Fully agreed. Something like Kill Teams - 10 figs per side, terrain, 1 hour or less of play. Necromunda would a great option for this.

Speaking as someone who doesn't play Warhammer but _might_ play Warhammer, this isn't a bad idea. Even offering the castings plain, with one side cast in one color and the other another color, would open up options for new players a lot.

For all the people saying they need a Kill Team-esque game...you mean like this?

http://www.spikeybits.com/2016/09/40ks-kill-team-game-first-look.html

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40000-Kill-Team-ENG

Spehss Mareens v. Tau

EDIT: Like I said the new CEO of GeeDubs is considerably less stupid than the last one.

Quote from: Michael Gray;917719For all the people saying they need a Kill Team-esque game...you mean like this?

http://www.spikeybits.com/2016/09/40ks-kill-team-game-first-look.html

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40000-Kill-Team-ENG

Spehss Mareens v. Tau

EDIT: Like I said the new CEO of GeeDubs is considerably less stupid than the last one.

I ordered this and have yet to open it.  Honestly, that's a HELL of a bargain.  

The squad of Marines is $40.  The squad of cuntfaced Xeno filth is $50.  

And there's the Kill-Team rules, AND a smaller version of the 40k rulebook.  

Brilliant- it's $65

Quote from: yosemitemike;917640Valid for the game?  What does that even mean?  What is the trade-off?  Isn't it obvious?  The rule book can only have so much in it.  To add something, you have to take something out.  It can't expand indefinitely.  It was already a pretty big and expensive book.  The way character creation and advancement work in that system means that even a few careers and associated options and gear would take up a significant number of pages.    

Should have had them?  Why?  Why should Dark Heresy have had them?  What should have been cut out to give half baked Eldar rules?  Would people have been satisfied with that or would they have complained that the Eldar rules weren't fleshed out enough and didn't have proper careers or enough options to support different character concepts?  I think we both know gamers enough to know which would have probably happened.  I can see them in a supplement for Rogue Trader but in the core book for Dark Heresy?  They're peripheral at best there.  

They were present as enemies.  They were just not fleshed out enough to be used as PCs.

I admit, I did not really understand your point until I read this (I bolded what I considered to be the most important part) :

Quote from: yosemitemike;917680They kind of have to assume that people are not familiar with the setting in an RPG book.  The sourcebooks added more stuff and eventually Orc Freebooter PCs.  I would have started with the better known races as enemies but maybe they just wanted something different.  

It doesn't really matter if a game is wholly successful or not, it is what it is, and calls on "it must have this or that" is unimportant, as long as it works well enough.
Am I right in my assumption?

Anyway, it makes your first question "what does "valid for the game" even mean?" both more important and interesting.
It virtually became more like:
Who did they make the game for?
The games are made for newcomers, quite clearly.
However, with that definition, some were more or less left out, mainly those who knows WH40K already, and wanted to roleplay in that same (or very similar) world.
Because for them, the well-known xenos were indeed missing from those games, and they didn't even get some kid of splatbook for those, from my impression.
Also, a more over-arcing setting description might have been more fitting than detailing one area so much.

Quote from: Catelf;917730It doesn't really matter if a game is wholly successful or not, it is what it is, and calls on "it must have this or that" is unimportant, as long as it works well enough.
Am I right in my assumption?

Not quite.  First, no core book for a 40k RPG could be wholly successful to everyone.  There will always be thing that it doesn't include that some players would like to have seen.  The 40k universe is too big for it to be otherwise.  Second, saying that a game "must have that" means that the game has an imperative need or duty to have that thing.  What does a game about Inquisitorial acolytes have an imperative need or duty to have?  I can think of a few obvious things like rules for making acolytes, the core game system and, if the game is aimed at people new to the universe, enough fluff for people to understand what the setting rules and how it works.  Rules for xenos characters that are, at best, peripheral to the premise wouldn't make that list.  

Quote from: Catelf;917730Anyway, it makes your first question "what does "valid for the game" even mean?" both more important and interesting.
It virtually became more like:
Who did they make the game for?
The games are made for newcomers, quite clearly.
However, with that definition, some were more or less left out, mainly those who knows WH40K already, and wanted to roleplay in that same (or very similar) world.
Because for them, the well-known xenos were indeed missing from those games, and they didn't even get some kid of splatbook for those, from my impression.
Also, a more over-arcing setting description might have been more fitting than detailing one area so much.

Saying that something is valid for a game simply means that it is justifiable.  Someone can justify it.  That can mean just about anything since just about anything can be justified with a little creativity.  Since it can mean nearly anything it means almost nothing.  

As for the new xenos, I suspect that they just wanted to put in something new for the game.  The bottom line is that you can't please all of the people all of the time.  Put in the same ones from the miniatures game and people complain that there isn't any new material.  Put in new ones and people complain that the iconic xenos are missing.  Everything can't be put in so something has to give.  You just have to pick your poison and know that some people will be unhappy no matter what you do.  Even if you put out books for everything, people will complain about having to buy too many books.

If your game line focuses on the Imperium, as the FFG 40k line clearly did, where do xenos splatbooks fall on the list of priorities?  It's probably pretty low on the list.  

What would have been more fitting depends on what they wanted to do.  It's impossible for us to really know that but, judging by what they did, they wanted to give a GM a premade area with enough retail to set games there without a lot of worldbuilding work and some adventures to run there.  Presenting a relatively shallow description of the whole setting rather than a more detailed description of that one area would not be fitting at all for that goal.  They picked an unexplored area beyond the Segmentum Obscurus which, in the 40k universe, is the equivalent of the wild frontier.  This is an obvious sort of place to pick for adventure and allows them to fill it in with new stuff without clashing too much with existing canon.  It's more or less a wide open playground for them.  Even with everything published, it doesn't begin to completely fill in the Koronus Expanse isn't even close to full detailed.  It's a huge area.  You don't have to set your game there but it's there for people to use.

Personally, I've always liked the humanocentric approach to Warhammer RPGs.

You're writing a 4OK RPG.
You KNOW there are a lot of folks out there who would like to play Eldar, Tau and other stuff.
Why would you NOT include rules for that except for some fucked up "This is how we want you to play" reasoning?
That right off starts annoying a sizeable chunk of your potential customers.

Not that it's all that hard to come up with your own rules for... anything... but it's a glaring omission no matter what the apologists say. It's a mistake.

Quote from: Simlasa;917818You're writing a 4OK RPG.
You KNOW there are a lot of folks out there who would like to slaughter the shit out of Eldar, Tau and other stuff.
Why would you NOT include rules for that except for some fucked up "This is how we want you to play" reasoning?
That right off starts annoying a sizeable chunk of your potential customers.

I fixed that for you

Quote from: TristramEvans;917807Personally, I've always liked the humanocentric approach to Warhammer RPGs.

I'd legitimately be interested to hear you elaborate on that.

Quote from: Crüesader;917821I fixed that for you

Well, there's those folks as well.

Quote from: Simlasa;917825Well, there's those folks as well.

Yes, we call them 'Loyal' and 'Pious', and 'true servants of the God Emperor'.  

But seriously, I get what you're saying.  I'd have rather received a toolkit than a standalone, area-specific, limited product.

Quote from: Crüesader;917826I'd have rather received a toolkit than a standalone, area-specific, limited product.

I think I can make a prediction here:
Unless GW divides up its rpg properties on several holders, then the next commercial property based on WH40K that makes a good enough stat converter between the wargame rules and its rpg rules, as well as solid enough rpg rules, of course, will outsell FFG's WH40K-based line.