It's a $100 it seems for a four person game, three players and one GM.

It is starting to look like you need to buy expansions to add players, though I still hope that's wrong.

If that is the case though, that's a big problem.  Four is too few, most rpg groups are five to six participants, most boardgames play at five to six as their sweet spot, four is too few.

On that basis, to play it in my group my entry cost is $100 plus the first expansion, at that point it's getting pretty pricey.

Quote from: Haffrung;320579I'm willing to bet FFG's boardgame Descent has sold more copies since its release than any RPG except D&D. They don't have to sell a Warhammer RPG for $40 at Target to make it a very successful by RPG standards.

I won't be buying the game. But if you think there's no market for a quasi RPG/boardgame for $100, then you must not follow the boardgame side of the market very closely.

So how is it going to outsell Descent?  It costs $20 more and comes with much, much less.  I know which one I'd pick.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320519You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a regular 14-year old non-gamer will spontaneously buy Talisman or Dominion, or any other board game priced over about $30.

These aren't fucking RISK or Axis & Allies. They're not selling in the millions.

Just for comparison:

What does a starter box of Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40.000 cost?
To whom is GW marketing the game, and who buys it?
How successful are those games?

I am on a similar fence with this "Third Edition" as I am with the other "Fourth Edition"--I think both games are (or will be) fully playable and fun (for the right kind of players), but I am despised by their publishers decision to alienate their life long customers.  D&D4 wouldn't be so controversial if it hadn't been called "D&D", and I am surprised that GW wants to do a similar "burning of bridges" with their WH RPG.

While I can understand WotC's reasons--they couldn't publish a second fantasy RPG along with 3.5--I don't understand GW. "Warhammer" is already a varied franchise with different product types sharing the name, and there would have been room for a new Warhammer Quest along with WH FB and WH FRP2.

Quote from: Balbinus;320613It's a $100 it seems for a four person game, three players and one GM.
(...)
If that is the case though, that's a big problem.  Four is too few, most rpg groups are five to six participants, most boardgames play at five to six as their sweet spot, four is too few.

I am not that sure about this. It might be true for us older players (I don't like to GM for only three players, so I am partly with you) but that might be a case of the way we learned it to be and the way our social circles operated in the 80s and 90s. I do see a different social world when it comes to today's youngsters, and a game that does not rely on large groups having to coordinate their schedules might actually be a good idea. If that game also has a solution for the GM problem (quick prep and almost out-of-the-box playability) then they might be onto something.I for one am quite happy that one of the big players wants to give it a try.

That the old WH FRP has to die for this is lamentable and despicable but last time I saw a WH shelf the game looked pretty much "done" for me--in the sense of "complete"--and WH FRP was never a game aimed at beginners. This upcoming incarnation seems to fit much better into the product family and target demographic--not grognards but 14 year olds who will, for a period of 2-3 years, buy a lot of GW stuff and move on to other hobbies.

As much as I dislike the "burning of bridges" approach, I am too interested in seeing how this plan unfolds to be mad at Games Workshop.

Quote from: Fifth Element;320585Aren't you the one who posted that they'd better not touch "your" Dark Heresy?

Way to miss the point there, douchebag.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320528You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a 14-year old non-gamer is spending his own money to buy games.

Ok, let's go through this step by step, you motherfucking retard:

1. We are assuming a 14 year old boy who does NOT know about RPGs, and wants to get into something cool.
2. Right, you've already conceded the point that there's no 14 year old who would, himself, when window shopping, spontaneously drop $100 on a game he's never heard of.
3. That leaves parents.

4. Now, if you're a parent, wandering around the toy shoppe, looking for something for your kid, you are also not going to drop $100 on something your kid hasn't specifically asked you for.

Conclusion: Unless FFG plans to make a massive marketing campaign so that every kid in america is ASKING mommy and daddy for the new WFRP, this is NOT a fucking introductory game.
An introductory game is a $25 box set that sells at Toys R Us, not a $100 mega-compendium that will probably only sell in FLGSes, GW stores, and specialty game stores for old fat math nerds who like stupid German math-games.

QuoteAnd what the fuck are you talking about with your "selling millions"? Is that the new lunacy-induced bar that games now have to reach to meet your nebulously fickle criteria?

Perhaps you haven't heard of this game:


That, you cunt, THAT is the fucking "criteria".

RPGPundit

Quote from: Haffrung;320582And who suggested that? Not FGG. They don't need to publish the next Red Box D&D for the game to be a success. I'm sure they'd be pleased with 20,000 units. In a RPG market where most 'successful' games have initial print runs of around 2,000-4,000, that looks pretty good.

Now you're shifting Marion's goalposts. He'd stated that this was the "new introductory game" that everyone had been waiting for, that would bring new blood into the hobby on a massive scale.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;320628Just for comparison:

What does a starter box of Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40.000 cost?
To whom is GW marketing the game, and who buys it?
How successful are those games?

In the UK, Games Workshop has excellent adversing by providing babysitting facilities for teenage boys right in the middle of shopping centres. The fact that replicating that model in the states has been so hard is a reason for its poor penetration.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;320628Just for comparison:

What does a starter box of Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40.000 cost?
To whom is GW marketing the game, and who buys it?
How successful are those games?

Warhammer Fantasy Battle: Battle For Skull Pass  
$75 and it comes with over 100 minis.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320655Now you're shifting Marion's goalposts. He'd stated that this was the "new introductory game" that everyone had been waiting for, that would bring new blood into the hobby on a massive scale.

RPGPundit

Yeah! Except for the part where I didn't.

"apparently made so beginners can join in the fun right away" is what I said. I may be a retard and a cunt, but I can fucking follow a simple discourse.

While my only real issue is the title they've used for the product, I think it's ridiculous to think of rpg marketing only in terms of the rpg market.

High end board games, miniatures games, and rpgs are competitors for the same dollars and time and the same customer base.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320653An introductory game is a $25 box set that sells at Toys R Us, not a $100 mega-compendium that will probably only sell in FLGSes, GW stores, and specialty game stores for old fat math nerds who like stupid German math-games.

There are a half-dozens stores in Calgary alone that sell Descent, Arkham Horror, BattleLore, and other fantasy boardgames. The boardgame scene is growing by leaps and bounds. Settlers of Catan has sold a half a million units in the U.S. alone in the last four years. And that's with no advertising to speak of. And only now is Toys R Us even considering stocking Settlers. If you think any pen and paper RPG has a shot at making it unto the shelves of Toys R Us, you're batshit fucking insane.

Descent and the like have a far more varied player demographic than WFRP 2E. Parents, kids, teenagers, couples. Fantasy Flight is a successful company in a growing market. Can any RPG publishers say the same thing? It's pen and paper RPGs that are played by a shrinking population of greying fatbeards.

QuoteThat, you cunt, THAT is the fucking "criteria".

By your criteria, there has only been one introductory RPG ever produced. And outside a few dozen bitter old DMs who post on RPG forums, everyone else in the world who plays or makes games understands that the halcyon days of D&D were a once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon that will never happen again.

But don't let that stop you from setting such insane criteria for a successful or introductory RPGs that you can sit back and judge every single person in the RPG industry as a fucking moron for not achieving it.

If you want to go around claiming that pen and paper fantasy RPGs have a more widespread appeal than boardgames, go right fucking ahead. It'll just make you look like even more of an embittered crank.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320664Yeah! Except for the part where I didn't.

"apparently made so beginners can join in the fun right away" is what I said. I may be a retard and a cunt, but I can fucking follow a simple discourse.

You were claiming that it was an "introductory game"· in the sense I've always been arguing for here and on my blog. I can tell you without a fucking doubt it is NOT: It is not because of the price, because of the presentation, and unless they do something radically different with regards to marketing than what I expect they do, it will utterly fail in that regard too.

This game is meant to sell to EXISTING GAMERS and to Warhammer Fantasy Battle fans who are not RPG gamers. That's the only possible penetration it will have. And I think that it will STILL fail to draw the latter demographic in.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Haffrung;320677If you want to go around claiming that pen and paper fantasy RPGs have a more widespread appeal than boardgames, go right fucking ahead. It'll just make you look like even more of an embittered crank.

Of course they don't. And the day someone makes an RPG (even just a half-decent one will do) in a boardgame box that sells for $20-40 in regular stores (NOT Comic stores or FLGSes), it will be a spectacular success, like Basic D&D was.

That is NOT what this game is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Haffrung;320677There are a half-dozens stores in Calgary alone that sell Descent, Arkham Horror, BattleLore, and other fantasy boardgames. The boardgame scene is growing by leaps and bounds. Settlers of Catan has sold a half a million units in the U.S. alone in the last four years. And that's with no advertising to speak of. And only now is Toys R Us even considering stocking Settlers. If you think any pen and paper RPG has a shot at making it unto the shelves of Toys R Us, you're batshit fucking insane.

Uhh.. you know that game picture Pundit posted?  IT USED TO BE SOLD IN TRU.  Wow.  RPGs HAVE been sold in toy stores.  Maybe a company could do it.. again?  Nahh.. that requires doing more than catering to the hobby game market which seems to happily shit itself whenever a totally new incompatible game edition comes out that makes them rebuy all their old shit and whine about anyone who dares stick with the old game or actually GASP!  realize using new money to buy their old shit intentionally modified to force them to do so doesn't exactly work so well.

Or is the ever shrinking RPG market soley because of videogames?  Oh wait.. people played videogames in the 70s and 80s too.  And nobody EVER bought D&D or Battletech computer games.  That silly Dawn of War game?  Didn't bring anyone into 40K and its overpriced unbalanced gameplay.

QuoteDescent and the like have a far more varied player demographic than WFRP 2E. Parents, kids, teenagers, couples. Fantasy Flight is a successful company in a growing market. Can any RPG publishers say the same thing? It's pen and paper RPGs that are played by a shrinking population of greying fatbeards.

You know WHY FFG is popular?  Pretty products with tons of toy value and generally decent gameplay.  (Generally.  Their World of Warcraft game SUCKED ASS, and Twilight Imperium is known as "That Master of Orion boardgame that nobody actually finishes".)

Of course boardgames do well.  They are SELF CONTAINED GAMES that new editions don't magically make the old one go away or fragment the playerbase.  One person buys the game and you can play for ever.  Expansions are available, but optional.  I love Settlers of Catan, but it and Seafarers are the only things I bought.  I BS my way with paper counters for 5-6 player games, and the other big expansion to the game (Cities and Knights) basically turns a wonderful casual game even most nongamers like into a spergy borefest.  You don't actually NEED the expansions unlike RPGs that all but force people to buy them.  And when they run out of obvious expansions?  NEW EDITION TIME FUCKERS.

One person buys a boardgame.  Then its standalone fun forever.  And most boardgames aren't intended to be played every week for months on end.  Most can be finished in a single game session and usually only needs 3 people to play.  No massive organized group getting their schedules in order to play at a certain time reliably for months on end.  

Most boardgames have rather simple rules too.  I can teach Wings of War in 5 minutes.  The card game Kings Blood in about the same.  Catan, Carcassonne, or Ticket to Ride likewise.  TransEuropa/America even less.  Kung Fu Fighting takes like 2 minutes.  Tsuro is a 2 sentence set of game rules.  Blokus as well.

Try doing it with the ever increasingly spergy RPG rulesets.  Plus most RPG core books are like 40-50 bucks now.  For that price most boardgames can be purchased with neat toys in the box and MUCH less reading.  You get percieved VALUE for your money.  In an RPG you get an expensive coffee table book that usually isn't even convenient for in play use.

Right now the closest we have to a value for money RPG is Tunnels & Trolls 7.5 which I have never even SEEN in a game store.  I had to preorder the damn thing from the publisher. It was 35 bucks for a complete game with tons of handy spiral bound books and counters in it.

QuoteBy your criteria, there has only been one introductory RPG ever produced. And outside a few dozen bitter old DMs who post on RPG forums, everyone else in the world who plays or makes games understands that the halcyon days of D&D were a once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon that will never happen again.

But don't let that stop you from setting such insane criteria for a successful or introductory RPGs that you can sit back and judge every single person in the RPG industry as a fucking moron for not achieving it.

If you want to go around claiming that pen and paper fantasy RPGs have a more widespread appeal than boardgames, go right fucking ahead. It'll just make you look like even more of an embittered crank.

No, RPGs don't.  But they could.  If we get the RPGnet consumer whore morons, the White Wolf players who all seem to want a mixture of Machiavelli meets Grand Theft Auto, and the D&D only brandsluts to get the fuck OUT, we may have a chance.

To hell with full color hardbacks.  To hell with massively detailed game systems appealing to sperge freaks.  (Just look how well ever increasing detail did to hex and chit wargames and the "machine sheet" wargame genre.  Wargames are effectively dead, machine sheet games are only slightly above them.  How many people play Starfleet Battles or Car Wars today?  Howabout Battletech?  Those games used to be MAJOR titles in gaming.)

More fast and fun games like D6 Star Wars or Ghostbusters.  Here is an RPG challenge.  Every ESSENTIAL and NEEDED rule for an RPG should be summarizable on a single sheet of paper.  If a player can read this one page and be ready to make their first character and then get into the game, its enough rules.

The GM?  At best, a 48 page booklet which should include everything they need to get going.  And maybe a 12-16 page introductory scenario for teaching them how to run a game.

There is another thing RPGs mostly miss too these days.  Nobody outside of other nerds KNOWS about it.

Where is the cartoon on tv?  Advertisements?  Videogames?  Action figure tie ins?

I know many gamers sneer at the Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh kids, but look what cartoon and videogame tie ins did there.  Hell, the Pokemon cartoon was so huge it literally cemented Nintendo's hold over the portable game market for another decade even with at the time an inferior aging machine.  The market bought the game, they watched the show, they bought into the CCG in mad numbers.  

Yu Gi Oh did the same, and now Bakugan is doing it.

Imagine how well Heroscape would have done with a TV show.  

Even Battletech and Heavy Gear had cartoons, though thanks to the games not being available at toy stores it didn't help much, but it STILL brought some new people into the fold.

Marketing matters.  Word of mouth doesn't do much of anything.

I have been promoting RPGs not named D&D for fucking YEARS.  Most of the time people look at me like I just whipped my wang out and started jerkin it.

The gamer market can go fuck off.  

We need new blood that hasn't been tainted by the stupid.  People who RPGnet and the Camarilla haven't turned into douchebags yet.  Folks who haven't drunk the Games Workshop Kool Aid and think 5 unassembled unpainted 1 inch tall plastic figurines are worth 50 dollars.

The only way to grow gaming is to get NEW people.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320687You were claiming that it was an "introductory game"· in the sense I've always been arguing for here and on my blog. I can tell you without a fucking doubt it is NOT: It is not because of the price, because of the presentation, and unless they do something radically different with regards to marketing than what I expect they do, it will utterly fail in that regard too.

This game is meant to sell to EXISTING GAMERS and to Warhammer Fantasy Battle fans who are not RPG gamers. That's the only possible penetration it will have. And I think that it will STILL fail to draw the latter demographic in.

RPGPundit

Oh, I don't think for a minute it'll be an introductory roleplaying game in the way we usually think of introductory roleplaying games. But I bet it's made to be played by anyone right out of the box, like a regular board game. That's why I see a lot of potential for attracting a new crowd in this fusion of board game and roleplaying game.

And whatever else you may think, the 100$ price tag is not an issue. If the production values are right (and with FFG they usually are) people will pay. All that matters is how good the game is. If WFRP3 is good, it will sell on the strength of FFG's brand alone - and if it sells well enough it may end up being the best thing that happened to the hobby in a while.