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Quote of relevance:

QuoteWFRP 3
A coupe of weeks ago, our regular roleplaying group was privileged enough to playtest 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The guys from Fantasy Flight Games were over at Games Workshop HQ, and Jay Little very kindly did a show and tell for us over at Alessio Cavatore's house, where we saw how much the game has changed from its previous incarnation. Our gaming group has been going for some time and we were all interested to see what was new with WFRP, since we'd playtested the previous edition also. It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I've played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we'd rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

By the time we'd despatched the goblins and rescued the coachman, we didn't have much time left to play out the more interpersonal encounters of the intro game, but we'd already gotten our heads around the system and were already looking to develop our characters – which is a good sign in any playtest. Overall, I really liked the changes to the game, and it makes a nice change from sitting with my Players Handbook and a grubby character sheet. I'm liking what Jay has done with the game, and there's a clear desire to make it fit properly with the Warhammer World, where a lot of the previous edition's books, with the best will in the world, just didn't.

My first reaction is horror.  But this is very little info to go on, so I'm trying to contain myself.

RPGPundit

Given the issues with the BI playtest (read as "Simon deleting anything that pointed out flaws in the mechanics), like my and Mark McIntire's posts about the flaws with the critical system....

It's not a bad Idea to revise. I just wonder if TEW will work with it...

QuoteOur gaming group has been going for some time and we were all interested to see what was new with WFRP, since we’d playtested the previous edition also. It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I’ve played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

Are you sure this isn't some April 1st prank? *blink*

Quote from: RPGPundit;312390My first reaction is horror.  But this is very little info to go on, so I'm trying to contain myself.

RPGPundit

But then horror is how you usually react to change.

Its not surprising.   Warhammer RPG and Warhammer Battles have never been the same tone and the setting was different in subtle, but important ways.   Mordheim was closer to the RPG than the Battle game which is definitely High to Super-High Fantasy.

So now they are going to try a RPG that emulates the world of the Battle game.  My hope is that your PC can have lots of minions easily, AKA be able to essentially play a warband from the minis game.

Quote from: RPGPundit;312390I'm trying to contain myself.

Now there's a first! :)

I too feel horror. First of all, the second edition is, with damn few caveats, perfect.  One of those caveats is that perfection is not truly attainable in something as subjective as an RPG.    

With that said, let me highlight my issues, and why I'm not holding back on the horror.

QuoteWFRP 3
A coupe of weeks ago, our regular roleplaying group was privileged enough to playtest 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The guys from Fantasy Flight Games were over at Games Workshop HQ, and Jay Little very kindly did a show and tell for us over at Alessio Cavatore's house, where we saw how much the game has changed from its previous incarnation. Our gaming group has been going for some time and we were all interested to see what was new with WFRP, since we'd playtested the previous edition also. It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I've played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we'd rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

By the time we'd despatched the goblins and rescued the coachman, we didn't have much time left to play out the more interpersonal encounters of the intro game, but we'd already gotten our heads around the system and were already looking to develop our characters – which is a good sign in any playtest. Overall, I really liked the changes to the game, and it makes a nice change from sitting with my Players Handbook and a grubby character sheet. I'm liking what Jay has done with the game, and there's a clear desire to make it fit properly with the Warhammer World, where a lot of the previous edition's books, with the best will in the world, just didn't.

Now let me parse it a little more finely:

the game was very different to anything  First of all, change for its own sake is not an admirable goal. Then too, I grow increasingly weary of people trying to re-invent games. Improve them? Sure, improve away, but re-inventions are usually all about missing the fucking point.

action and ability cards,  Oh, great. Its fourth fucking edition D&D!  I know, I know: Some people like it. I'm more than cool with that.  What I DO NOT stay cool with is some fucking borg like assimilation of all other RPGs on the fucking market.

strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game You know what? I've played 'board game RPGs'... and you know what I learned?  They aren't fucking RPGs. They are board games with some set dressing. Utterly absent is any really freedom to leave the confines of the board and just, I dunno... seduce the dragon instead of fighting it.

the new dice pool system Seen it, played it. Talk about clunk factor. Combine it with the 4e connection and what we've got is "D&D of Darkness:the suckitude"

the holy grail of any roleplaying system. So, the new design team is either made of martyred saints or they all die horribly failing miserably because they are only human.  Wonderful. Do you even know what the quest for the holy grail IS?  

it makes a nice change from sitting with my Players Handbook and a grubby character sheet  The Fuck?!  So does sitting down at a computer, but that doesn't make WoW a step up from old school RPGs, just different.  Hey? You know what else makes a nice change from a book and a character sheet?  Going to a movie!  Maybe you should just fucking FILM your warhammer fantasy game for us!!! Won't that be... swell.

make it fit properly with the Warhammer World, where a lot of the previous edition's books, with the best will in the world, just didn't.

And the capstone on a post filled with stupid shit disguised as hype.  One thing I've learned over the ages is that once a product leaves the hands of the creater it is no longer theirs to decide what the consumer actually DOES with it... and this is only good and proper.  Further, there has long been a standing ideological war between HOW WFRP is supposed to play out, and two of the major 'sides' are both, essentially, right.  Now, it may seem like a good idea for a designer to support a POV he personally believes in, but its a shitty decision from a business standpoint (alienating a good chunk of your base) and it leads to shitty designs that fail to please even the people you are, obstensibly, siding with!

In other words, this is the shit frosting on a rotten cake.


Horror indeed.

-Spike, going all grognardy and bitter who will now quit gaming for all time to protest.

Seriously.  Why doesn't anyone believe him?

QuoteLikewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

I now live a life in which each instant I am unsettled by the idea of dice pools in WHFRP.

What was wrong with Advanced Heroquest?

EDIT: OTOH, there´d be absolutely no need for a new edtion if they didn´t actually change everything.

I know people love WHFRP but it was much better at aping a fantasy version of Adventures of a Simpleton than Warhammer Fantasy. If the new edition of WHFRP is anything like the much more suitable WHQ, it will be good (for me, at least).

Tangal, what was wrong with Advanced Heroquest?

Quote from: Settembrini;312409What was wrong with Advanced Heroquest?

It wasn't as cool as Warhammer Quest.

But AH was very fun, just not as gonzo great as WHQ.

Quote from: The Worid;312407I now live a life in which each instant I am unsettled by the idea of dice pools in WHFRP.

Dice pools?! Oh, no! :(

I hope that I am not induced to drive over there.

Seems a bit early for a big new edition to me.  I guess everyone is new edition happy.

I don't get the point of this big change, though.  From a financial POV, I mean - what's the upside here?  You can't out-D&D D&D, you've made the game even less compatible with your 40K RPG line, and you've alienated your former fans without having enough market share to really bring in many new ones.

I guess the point is to appeal to Warhammer Fantasy Battles players, but I never got the impression they were that popular in the grand scheme of things.  I've always seen 40K being far, far more popular among minis gamers (and half of them seem to have stopped now to play that collectible Monsters thing).

I don't understand why they don't just focus on making WFRP 2e and Dark Heresy as compatible with each other as possible. They have a perfectly playable system there. If I had my way, I'd make Dark Heresy more compatible with WFRP 2e, and continue with both lines, though I'd want to put a Perception and Corruption stat in WFRP 2e.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;312446I hope that I am not induced to drive over there.

Maybe I can get a couple of my buddies who work there tell me what's up. If they can.

Eh, I still have my second edition books. I'll agree with Spike, WHFRP 2nd is a flawless game.

If it's closer to the world of the tabletop game, I know plenty of people who'd like to play it. I know the darkness of the setting was a pretty big turnoff for a lot of players I know.

My initial reaction when I heard 'dice pools' was:Fantasy Shadowrun.

I'm making my prediction now. WHFRP 3e is going to be Fantasy Shadowrun.

Ok, woah woah woah. What is this "WFRP2nd is the perfect RPG" stuff? Where can I get a feel for it, maybe a taste of the rules or a good, unbiased (!!!) review? Honestly, I've never played any version of WFRP, and I probably ignore/glossed over any threads about it beofre since I was happy with 3e, but hey, if it is the bee's knees, I might be interested. Hell, just give me some idea why it rocks on toast?

Sett, I have no problem with AHQ. I didn't play it much but I had no issue with it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;312435It wasn't as cool as Warhammer Quest.

Very few games are.

Yup my crap-ola meter is going off the chart.

Mind you if this turns out to be Warhammer Quest where you can make your own characters and have free form advancement I'll take that back.

Quote from: Werekoala;312472Ok, woah woah woah. What is this "WFRP2nd is the perfect RPG" stuff? Where can I get a feel for it, maybe a taste of the rules or a good, unbiased (!!!) review? Honestly, I've never played any version of WFRP, and I probably ignore/glossed over any threads about it beofre since I was happy with 3e, but hey, if it is the bee's knees, I might be interested. Hell, just give me some idea why it rocks on toast?

Basically, if you dig the idea of character careers (i.e. going from profession to profession to carve your character's abilities instead of the rigid "one class and that's it for life"), rolling d100 for a resolution system, and liked Third edition D&D but thought it was a little heavy on the crunch, chances are, you're going to love WFRPG2.

The Good and the Bad about WFRP1/WFRP2/Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader:

Base stats rolled on 2d10+20+Racial mods for all but Wounds. WFRP1 Str, Move, and Toughness are on 1d3+1, instead, being non-percentile.

All are roll 1d100 for stat or less, with modifiers for having the right skill(s). To hit is Weapon Skill or less, for example. A Bow or Gun is Ballistic Skill or less.

Your stats and skills are limited (generally) to only taking the advances offered by your current career. Attribute advances are limits based upon maximum advancement from starting career... so if you go from a career with a "WS +10" to a career with a "WS+20", that means you can only raise it another 10 points.

WFRP1 had boolean skills; you had them or you didn't. Some were +10 to a test that you could make unskilled; a few were +20; several enabled one to make tests that were either done at half stat or not permitted at all if unskilled.

WFRP 2, DH, RT all have a default mode of unskilled is 1/2 stat, base skill +0, improved +10, and maximum +20.  Items that are essentially boolean are called talents, and some are simply training (weapon proficiencies), some are exceptional abilities, or even paranormal abilities. Cybernetics (RT & DH) need talents to enable their features.

Interesting side note: Hit location is not rolled; the dice-roll is read reversed to find hit location. This was an optional rule in 1E, and core in later works. It was introduced in the GW Judge Dredd game, which is mechanically closely related.

Damage, Melee weapons:
WFRP1: 1d6+AttS-TgtT-TgtAV, damage is marked against Wounds. When wounds exceeded, amount negative is checked for which critical is applied; at end of round, current W is reset to 0 if it was negative. Essentially, each point negative is a 10% chance of being dead...

WFRP2: 1d10, not 1d6 for most weapons, tho' some are 1d5. Otherwise, works the same, tho' the specific crits are both harsher but less lethal. S and T: use the 10's digit of the stat for the "bonus", which is used like the earlier edition's S & T for damage purposes.

RT/DH: negative does NOT reset, and the crits are very similar to WFRP2. No rolls, either; the crits are determined by damage type, location, and specific amount negative.

Insanity: All games have an insanity system, where increasing gains of insanity points get converted to new insanities. Specifics differ from game to game

DH, probably also RT: Corruption. Brings about mutations rather than insanity, works the same way. Different causes.

WFRP1E Stat List: Move, Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength*, Toughness*, Wounds**, Initiative, Dexterity, Intelligence, Cool, Willpower, Leadership, Felowship.

WFRP2E,: Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Wounds**,  Agility, Intelligence, Willpower, Fellowship.

 DH, RT: Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Wounds**,  Agility, Intelligence, Perception, Willpower, Fellowship

*1d3+1
** formulaic by race; human in WFRP1 is 4-7, don't recall in 2E, and it ranges from 5-12 for starting DH characters.

The Good: Play is fast, and supports tactical miniatures mode of combat. Character generation is fast, advancement is based upon current career. Career limits advancement over baseline (initial rolled stat), and does not stack.

The Bad: Characters tend to go insane. Often repeatedly gaining disorders.  Characters, even highly experienced, are at risk from even minor attackers like snotlings.

It's kind of "Cthuluhu meets Middle Earth meets Hyperborea..." but that's the crux of the Warhammer world in general.

All are really good, none are truly perfect, tho' each has many players for whom it's as close as a published game is going to get.

Oh yes. After reading Aramis' post, I forgot in my snapshot post above: It's lethal. Very lethal.

If true then I'll wait until I've read the game before passing judgement.

That said, it makes sense that Fantasy Flight would produce an RPG that resembles the battle game. I expect that's how they won the license in the first place.

Until I see some proper proof from another source, I'm going to flat call bullshit.  The scenario described is far too ludicrous to sustain believability, and I suspect it's author is having us all on.  It reads like a deliberately constructed description designed to baffled and infuriate as many as possible.  

I do not see why they would suddenly switch gears mid turn to pull a "4e but moreso" in WFRP when they've done no such thing whatsoever with the more popular, both in itself and it's parent property, Dark Heresy.  All accounts suggest that Rogue Trader is just Dark Heresy, but starting out at a higher level, as was always implied.

I mean, I suppose it's vaguely possible that some besuited twat at either FFG or GW saw 4e and decided to go one further on them in the "lets go boardgame" drive, taking advantage of the existing talents of FFG's Descent/etc. "Heroquest clone" team.  

I think if this account is at all true, it'll more likely turn out to be a WHFRP branded separate boardgame in the vein of Descent, and the author has confused it with a new edition of the RPG.

More likely though I think, is that he's just being a big fucking troll.

I went poking around FFG's website; they have a card based game coming out that seems to fit the description from the OP.

For WFRP comparison: WFRP 1- I took B2, and it was several weeks play to get them through it, just replacing the D&D monsters with the same named WFRP monsters.

Quote from: Werekoala;312472Hell, just give me some idea why it rocks on toast?

If gritty, lethal fantasy sounds fun, then at least grab WFRP 1e off ebay.   Characters are mostly fighter/rogue types and magic is less common than D&D. Some dude is selling it for $5 with shipping right now.

Quote from: J Arcane;312518I mean, I suppose it's vaguely possible that some besuited twat at either FFG or GW saw 4e and decided to go one further on them in the "lets go boardgame" drive, taking advantage of the existing talents of FFG's Descent/etc. "Heroquest clone" team.

It would make sense that FFG would design a hybrid RPG.   Their core strength is card games and boardgames.   I would LOVE them to put out a new Warhammer Quest.

Quote from: aramis;312519I went poking around FFG's website; they have a card based game coming out that seems to fit the description from the OP.

Warhammer: Invasion the CCG based on the Warhammer Online MMO
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=652

WFRP1 is well worth it.

That play test originally linked sounds like trollbait or a new boardgame if anything for WFRP.  It also sounds like they just mashed 4e with Exalted and made up the rest.  I highly doubt that's the face of WFRP 3e.  3e will likely just be an update to the rule changes they've made for Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader and nothing much more.

Quote from: kryyst;312559That play test originally linked sounds like trollbait or a new boardgame if anything for WFRP.  It also sounds like they just mashed 4e with Exalted and made up the rest.  I highly doubt that's the face of WFRP 3e.  3e will likely just be an update to the rule changes they've made for Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader and nothing much more.

Dunno. Jay Little is a fan of GNS theory and of Ron Edwards, so anything's possible.

I think I threw up in my mouth a little after reading that description of new mechanics.

Quote from: Saphim;312397But then horror is how you usually react to change.

Only when change sucks. I was wildly happy about WFRP 2e, for example.

RPGPundit

Quote from: One Horse Town;312614Dunno. Jay Little is a fan of GNS theory and of Ron Edwards, so anything's possible.

Please don't rain on my bubble world.  We are having a parade right now.

The only consoling factor is that if it goes that route WFRP 2nd ed can easily give me 10+ years out of playing it before I feel like bursting my bubble.

Quote from: aramis;312526WFRP1 is well worth it.

I love that book. I never did get a chance to actually play the game, but man did I pore over that book for hour after hour. I should go dig it out and give it a hug right now.

Quote from: Fifth Element;313261I should go dig it out and give it a hug right now.

When you are done nurgle-fucking it, holler over some friends, roll up some characters and play the damned thing!!!   :)

Quote from: Spinachcat;313308When you are done nurgle-fucking it, holler over some friends, roll up some characters and play the damned thing!!!   :)

Unfortunately my current gaming friends are mostly casual gamers. They're comfortable with D&D, so we play D&D. They'll try a new system when it's a different genre, like Shadowrun, but I doubt they'd be willing to take the time to learn a new fantasy game. Such is life.

Quote from: Fifth Element;313319Unfortunately my current gaming friends are mostly casual gamers. They're comfortable with D&D, so we play D&D. They'll try a new system when it's a different genre, like Shadowrun, but I doubt they'd be willing to take the time to learn a new fantasy game. Such is life.

Warhammer is a completely different genre from D&D.  The settings may be similar, but the stock genre's are night and day.

I'm going to join the chorus of people calling bullshit. Fantasy Flight go to all that effort to land the system, continue to use the same system in Rogue Trader (if the Free RPG Day adventure is anything to go by), and as far as anyone knows intends to use it in Deathwatch too... but they're planning to burn it all to the ground and come up with a completely different system? Seems bizarre to me.

I am going to be charitable and assume that the person quoted in the OP got their wires crossed, and they were actually testing a new version of Warhammer Quest, or something similar to it.

Quote from: kryyst;313591Warhammer is a completely different genre from D&D.  The settings may be similar, but the stock genre's are night and day.

As I said, they're casual players. You and I may see a huge difference, but they wouldn't, unless they played it.

Quote from: Fifth Element;313597As I said, they're casual players. You and I may see a huge difference, but they wouldn't, unless they played it.

I understand.  Just saying.  Sell it as a different genre to them.  If they are willing to play other games, because they want a different experience.  Then you may be able to sell them on it.  Killing orcs in warhammer feels a lot different then doing the same in D&D.  Plus I mean if you are GM'ing the games you may have some pull there.   But then again you know your players better then I do.

Quote from: kryyst;313591Warhammer is a completely different genre from D&D.  The settings may be similar, but the stock genre's are night and day.

This is not apparent to a casual gamer.  Warhammer looks like D&D, and you do much the same sort of things as D&D, so for a casual gamer it might as well be D&D.  It's like trying to argue that two mid-sized cars with similar prices and appearance are really all that different due to their brand names.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;313599This is not apparent to a casual gamer.  Warhammer looks like D&D, and you do much the same sort of things as D&D, so for a casual gamer it might as well be D&D.  It's like trying to argue that two mid-sized cars with similar prices and appearance are really all that different due to their brand names.

So your point is then to not bother trying?  I know they appear the same from the outside and at a casual glance.  If the players are willing to try a different system, like Shadowrun, because it's a different genre.  Then you are half way in getting them to play a different system in a similar setting.

Quote from: Fifth Element;313319Unfortunately my current gaming friends are mostly casual gamers. They're comfortable with D&D, so we play D&D. They'll try a new system when it's a different genre, like Shadowrun, but I doubt they'd be willing to take the time to learn a new fantasy game. Such is life.

WFRP1 is EASIER than D&D, by a considerable margin.

Get it to table, you won't regret it.

Hmmm, it looks like this rumour may be based on garbled accounts of this (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/07/ffg-news-warhammer-invasion-card-game.html).

Quote from: Warthur;315067Hmmm, it looks like this rumour may be based on garbled accounts of this (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/07/ffg-news-warhammer-invasion-card-game.html).

I am not convinced.

How does that (from Pundit's OP) ...

Quotewe were all interested to see what was new with WFRP, since we'd playtested the previous edition also. It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I've played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we'd rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

By the time we'd despatched the goblins and rescued the coachman, we didn't have much time left to play out the more interpersonal encounters of the intro game, but we'd already gotten our heads around the system and were already looking to develop our characters –

... rhyme with that (from your link) ...

QuoteTaking place in the war-torn setting of Warhammer Fantasy, players muster their forces, collect vast resources, venture out on perilous -but rewarding- quests, build and develop their kingdom, and lead massive sieges against heavily fortified foes. Designed by Eric M. Lang, award-winning designer of the Call of Cthulhu and A Game of Thrones card games, Warhammer: Invasion puts you in charge of an empire seeking to rule the lands.

Will you play the indestructible grudge-bearing Dwarfs, the shrewd and manoeuvrable Empire, the savage and destructive Orcs, or the entropic and mutating forces of Chaos? Or will you cleverly craft an alliance, playing the combined might of the forces of either Order or Destruction?

... and that?

QuoteWarhammer Invasion LCG Core Set contains:

1 Rulebook
220 Cards representing 4 factions
4 Capital Boards
35 Resource Tokens
60 Damage Tokens
4 Burning Tokens

• No dice to form dice pools?
• Races/factions instead of single characters?
• No character sheets?
• A kingdom-building wargame in which a single coachman has to be saved from goblins?

Quote from: One Horse Town;312614Dunno. Jay Little is a fan of GNS theory and of Ron Edwards, so anything's possible.

Indeed it is.

There is a link to this (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=93) over at RPG.net.

I'm trying to figure out if playtesters are still under NDA or not.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;320275There is a link to this (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=93) over at RPG.net.

I'm trying to figure out if playtesters are still under NDA or not.

Ugh. That looks not good.

QuoteWarhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a new, exciting way to experience the popular Warhammer Fantasy setting. It is a grim world, constantly at war. As a hero, you will take up weapon, spell, or prayer and do your best to combat the might of enemies terrifying to behold. As the Game Master, you will make the lands of the Old World real as you craft the story, the people, creatures, and the mysteries the other players will encounter during their adventures.

Everything your group needs to begin its adventures in the Old World is included in the Core set. This Core set is an excellent way to bring new players into the fold, as well as to reward experienced roleplaying with new and exciting innovations.

•4 comprehensive rule books provide all the knowledge you will need on the Old World
•Over 30 Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling
•Party sheets provide new skills and abilities to keep everyone engaged
•40 different careers and 4 different races offer a multitude of character options
•More than 300 cards keep you in the game, no need to look up skills or abilities
•Three character keepers designed to hold everything your hero will need each session

Custom Dice = Story Telling Options
Party Sheets = ?
300 Cards = Keep you in the game

Wow...

QuoteRolling up a story

Using a new task resolution system featuring custom dice, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay gives you unparalleled story-telling options.

Every roll of the dice has a story to tell, providing far more information and flavour than just “you hit” or “you miss.” These dice represent the abilities and skills your characters will gain, as well as include the whims of fate. With each roll, players will be able to see how the check succeeded or failed. Did they make it through based on their natural skills or did they just get lucky as fortune intervened?

There are more than 30 custom dice included to help you craft your story.

Appears there is a dice game mechanic that you manipulate.

QuoteAction at hand
Mighty warriors perform mighty deeds. You can quickly reference the full-colour action cards to see what your abilities and innate skills can accomplish, allowing players to spend more time focusing on the task at hand. From spells, blessings, and attacks to social gambits, and reactions, and acrobatics you will have the actions you need to tell your character’s tale.

Cards for all your actions...

QuoteThis Core set is best suited for a group of four players – one Game Master and three Player Characters. Adding more players is easy! You can find more careers, party sheets, action cards, and components in the the Adventurer’s Toolkit.

Oi oi oi!

You gotta BUY an expansion to add players to your game.

QuoteThe massive Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd Edition box, which will retail for $99.95, contains everything a group of adventurers will need to play – four different rule-books, 36 custom dice, over 300 cards, counters, “character keeper” boxes, and much more.

100 bucks for a game with no board and no minis??

Playtesters and writers are still under NDA.

urgh...

another grand old game is destroyed

seriously, this shit can fuck the hell right off

Well, they will be running games at GenCon. I'll see how that shakes out, but my hopes are not high. I'm guessing you were a playtester pseudo?

I will reserve final judgment until I play it, but here's my initial thoughts.

1) It looks like a game.  RPGs look like books.  So maybe people who like games will be drawn to it.

2) Custom dice solves the piracy issue.  Keeps the dice profit in house instead of going to Chessex.

3) I would have rather them sold it as Warhammer Quest than WFRP 3e.  I guess this means the 2e line is dead.

4) $100 is overkill.  $70-$80 for one of their big box boardgames is fine because there are oodles of minis and colorful toy crap inside and their replay value is great.   $100 for Cards / Books / Dice sounds at least $30 over the market value.

5) It can be sold in toy stores and book stores.  Looks like something you would buy as a present...just not during a recession.

Quote from: KrakaJak;320284Well, they will be running games at GenCon. I'll see how that shakes out, but my hopes are not high. I'm guessing you were a playtester pseudo?

An alpha playtester, yes. I don't know how it's changed since then. I've been told not to talk about anything beyond what they mention on the site, but I'm keeping my ear open for word that I'm out from under my NDA.

One hundred US dollars for dice that tell stories.

And that's Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying, you say.

Just when did I pass through the portal to the bizarroworld?

Would it be accurate to say this is like Arkham Horror trying to bill itself as Call of Cthulhu 7th edition?

Quote from: JasperAK;320305Would it be accurate to say this is like Arkham Horror trying to bill itself as Call of Cthulhu 7th edition?

:hatsoff:

Quote from: JasperAK;320305Would it be accurate to say this is like Arkham Horror trying to bill itself as Call of Cthulhu 7th edition?

No board / no minis / no counters and maybe the scenarios are not pre-set either so it would not appear to be a boardgame like Arkham.

RPG + Card game? + Dice game? = new Hybrid?

Consider how successful FFG has been with Arkham, Descent, LotR and their other boardgames, I suspect that their Warhammer will be fun to play.

So the question for me is...

Is this the time to unload my few Warhammer 2E books?  Or the time to snatch up the Warhammer 2E books that looked cool? =P

It may be a fun game that I may not be opposed to...so as far as THAT goes, I'll wait for reviews and more info.

It has minis, or at least the ArHo style standees in some of the pictures. I'm guessing one for each player class based on the player class card shown and the standee shown use the same image.

What I want is an RPG that plays just like the minis game mechanically. I don't want cards or tokens or require minis, but I want it to be simple, fast, and compatible with the minis game.

Ha! Shows what i know.

Edit: It appears my inner grognard is crying.

Ah, fuck me, it looks terrible. Why are they trying to out-4E 4E?

I don't see what's the problem. WFRP was really horribly dated and in dire need of a facelift. Nobody I know liked its shitty magic system, its slow and boring leveling, not to mention the useless and pathetic characters you were supposed to play. Who wants ratcatchers and sheepherds for heroes? Who wants to be afreaid of measly goblins? That's not a rewarding experience and plainly not fun for most of us. Everyone I know has always played the game with advanced career characters and most of us used dice pool systems. I suppose if the butthurt brigade really wants to enjoy getting gangrene from rat bites in some dank cellar instead of experiencing the high-octane fun you could get from Warhammer Fantasy Battles (which is how the game was always supposed to be - the new WH is closer to Halliwell and Priestley's original vision than anything before; the original WFRP edition was itself a departure from the real Warhammer world), they are welcome to share their sob stories over their Cheeto-stained rulebooks. The rest of us will be having good social fun over killing some gobboes with a Sigmar's hammer spell. If you haven't tried that, it's rolling a lot of dice while enemies fall left and right - it makes you feel liquid awesome! I am really pumped about the new edition. :) :) :)

Tyranny!

Looks potentially interesting. Though there's no chance I'm going to spend that much on something potentially interesting.

Everything looked and sounded great to me until I clicked through all the links and to the part where they showed the custom dice. A bunch of colored d6s and d8s with strange symbols on them. I like my dice with numbers. I like using my lucky dice for important roles. I want to be able to use my personal dice that I hand selected from many other sets on the shelf of my local FLGS, not be forced to use some abomination that only comes in a $100 box.

The overall concept of the new version looked very interesting and I'm curious to see how big of a success it will be but I just can't get over the dice thing. Sigh.

Quote from: GoOrange;320340Everything looked and sounded great to me until I clicked through all the links and to the part where they showed the custom dice. A bunch of colored d6s and d8s with strange symbols on them. I like my dice with numbers. I like using my lucky dice for important roles. I want to be able to use my personal dice that I hand selected from many other sets on the shelf of my local FLGS, not be forced to use some abomination that only comes in a $100 box.

The overall concept of the new version looked very interesting and I'm curious to see how big of a success it will be but I just can't get over the dice thing. Sigh.

Dice with numbers means math and math is hard.  It isn't fun to do math, so they'll be none of that.  Besides you have to buy the special dice from them only.

While I'm not prepared to jump on the bandwagon yet and given that WFRP 2e is an extremely complete game that I can play for 10 years I don't have to.

But I can't help but think that some of the the concepts sound really compelling and it could potentially be a gateway game to bring fans of games like Descent and Talisman into role play.  I'm curious as hell.  I'm fully prepared to stand on my rock and shout "THIS IS NOT WARHAMMER" but at the same time I want to read more.

QuoteRolling up a story
Using a new task resolution system featuring custom dice, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay gives you unparalleled story-telling options. Every roll of the dice has a story to tell, providing far more information and flavour than just “you hit” or “you miss.” These dice represent the abilities and skills your characters will gain, as well as include the whims of fate. With each roll, players will be able to see how the check succeeded or failed. Did they make it through based on their natural skills or did they just get lucky as fortune intervened? There are more than 30 custom dice included to help you craft your story.

How much will you risk?
With every decision comes a risk to assess. In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, heroes will decide how they wish to approach any situation. Do they rush in, swords drawn, in an attempt to quickly overwhelm their foes? Do they advance cautiously and appraise the situation before entering to gain advantage? Your stance, reckless or conservative, will guide your actions and the bonuses they provide. As stances can be changed on the fly, players will have new levels of control over situations.

More fun in a group
Every hero is powerful on their own, but when combined, heroes interact in interesting, new ways. Each party will be able to select a party sheet, which helps track and manage the group as a whole. Will the dwarf and high elf be able to put aside their differences in order to work as a cohesive unit, or will the ancient grudges be too much for them? Can the human overcome the arrogance of the high elf, and can the high elf overcome the brashness of the short-lived human? Each party sheet also provides special abilities for the party members. In this way, every group becomes far more than the sum of its parts.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is an experience like no other. Custom dice help you to tell the story with every roll, the stance system provides greater depth to the decisions the GM and the PCs must make, action cards keep all your options close at hand, group party sheets give each party a reason for existing and unique abilities to draw from, and the wide variety of careers give each player a variety of options when creating their character and even more options when they advance their hero.

That sounds awesome.  Having systems that actually tie the players into the group and rules that actually give purpose to the group as a whole are in a word well awesome.  The whole group as an Entity concept is one thing I love about the Reign RPG.

If the dice results do give you more then just pass fail, that again is really an interesting component.  I mean crap.  I'm not sure where I stand.  I'd certainly have to see some more detailed examples of this game as it comes out and read more reviews.  But really this could be a fun twist.

Now there are certainly similarities between this and 4e, which throws up all sorts of red flags.  But if this Warhammer keeps the system flowing quickly (a huge failing in 4e in my eyes) and keeps the grim feel of Warhammer.....  Well it could be fun.

I really don't know.  This is certainly not your fathers Warhammer and I'm fully willing to press on with 2e, I was good with WFRP 1e for a decade.   A new system that puts the action right there on the table and with my love for boardgames.  I'd be lying if I didn't say this 3.0 does have an appeal to me.  I already can think of a few people that I could possibly get to play a game like this that would normally never agree to play an RPG.

QuoteI mean, I suppose it's vaguely possible that some besuited twat at either FFG or GW saw 4e and decided to go one further on them in the "lets go boardgame" drive, taking advantage of the existing talents of FFG's Descent/etc. "Heroquest clone" team.

Fuck.

This was not supposed to be the part of the post I was right about.

So help me God if they fuck with my fucking Dark Heresy . . .

My Simulationist Dwarf Troll Slayer rolls the bones of fate and gets a skull! Ha! That means you have to sit in the corner and consider what an insensitive monster you've been!

Story wins!

Egad, FFG.

Well, it seems that rather than simply dally 'bout the edges and slowly modify this game, they gave a hearty, "fuck that," while dry humping old copies of White Dwarf and swilling down warm malt liquor.

At least that's how it looks to me.




I've simply got to stop re-reading my Transmetropolitan stuff while drinking as it appears to be affecting my ability to make rational comparisons anymore.

As of last I checked, the response on the FFG website from fans - especially in the actual forum for this edition of the game - seems to be extremely negative.

I would love to be a fly on the wall at the FFG stand at Gen Con this year to listen to people express their opinions about the new edition. It'd be interesting to see what sort of balance of pissed off to vaguely interested people they get.

Quote from: Warthur;320379As of last I checked, the response on the FFG website from fans - especially in the actual forum for this edition of the game - seems to be extremely negative.

I would love to be a fly on the wall at the FFG stand at Gen Con this year to listen to people express their opinions about the new edition. It'd be interesting to see what sort of balance of pissed off to vaguely interested people they get.

At first blush, it looks like a grab at current wargamers and the MMO gamers money. Shit, if there's a collectable aspect to it, GW might even stock this edition in their stores.

Shiny.

Big box.

Big price.

A bit of me is horrified that i'm now identifying with grognards everywhere, whilst another part is thinking "well done, lets see if this brings in fresh blood." I just have to recognise that i'm stale blood and get over it.

I suppose I can sigh into my grognard beard and wistfully hope that a tide of bad feeling at Gen Con will prompt a hasty rebrand - "Warhammer Descent" has a nice ring to it. ;)

Quote from: Melan;320332I don't see what's the problem. WFRP was really horribly dated and in dire need of a facelift. Nobody I know liked its shitty magic system, its slow and boring leveling, not to mention the useless and pathetic characters you were supposed to play.

Then you know no-one but the ignorant and/or persons with poor taste.

The system is one where heroes are built of ordinary men in extraordinary circumstances.

The 1st ed magic system was good, the second much more potent... but much riskier.

Bullshit!
WFRP was Cthulhu for the Fantasy crowd. NO CONNECTION to the actual source materiél!

What were you calling bullshit, Sett?

Quote from: aramis;320384Then you know no-one but the ignorant and/or persons with poor taste.

Then that makes two of us. The combat mechanics are boring due to the interminable back and forth. The magic mechanics are boring because you almost always end up casting the same spell over and over again. The skill mechanics are boring because of the high whiff factor. The profession system is interesting but extremely impractical in long campaigns - which is what has been almost exclusively published for the game.

Quote from: aramis;320384Then you know no-one but the ignorant and/or persons with poor taste.

The system is one where heroes are built of ordinary men in extraordinary circumstances.

The 1st ed magic system was good, the second much more potent... but much riskier.

Well, this "system" didn't accurately reflect the canonical Warhammer source material at all. Real Warhammer has the Emperor Karl Franz riding around on his awesome griffin steed, it is these two (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Gotrex_and_Felix_hardcover.jpg), the knights of Bretonnia questing on behalf of the Lady of the Lake (or an equivalent; I can't exactly recall the names) and big battles between the forces of chaos and the Empire. I mean, Warhammer is this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/Warhammer-second-edition-cover.jpg), not some lame-ass no-fun rules like getting gangrene and dying in a brain surgery operation and playing shepherds or milkmen. It takes little effort to realise WFRP was simply a poorly designed game that didn't allow for heroism at all. Even the adventures they released were no fun - in the first one, you had to kill a... dun dun... lawyer, and after that, you were supposed to become merchants on the Empire's rivers. It took until Empire in Flames to start to fix things, but then unfortunately the game got stuck as it was until now. It is high time a company took a good hard look at what makes Warhammer fun, and redesign it according to those principles.

It is really that simple.

Not to mention how much hassle it was to bring a character to a good enough power level. Too much hard work and frustration, too litle reward.

It´s overdue that some holy cows were slaughtered.
The a-historical "carreer" system was one of them.

Quote from: Melan;320396Not to mention how much hassle it was to bring a character to a good enough power level. Too much hard work and frustration, too litle reward.

You speak a big word with lightly. Fuck, for the first ten sessions any roll over 35% is a failure anyway, so why bother at all? There´s no differentiation anyway.

You're just pissed at the bad German puns, Sett. Go on, admit it.

WFRP1 was pretty commensurate with WFB 3

Karl Franz wasn't riding a griffin. The Überhero motif of WFB 5 simply shows the two had grown apart.

On its own merits, WFRP is a good game; tactical combat, skill tells profoundly, and most players can manage to get 45% or more on a 1st round.

But it is also a game that relies on the GM doing his damned job and awarding modifiers as approrpriate to the situation.

The career system has its flaws, but it provides an excellent start for the hero's journey.

Quote from: Settembrini;320397It´s overdue that some holy cows were slaughtered.
The a-historical "carreer" system was one of them.

Well, you're going to be disappointed, because as far as I can tell from the announcement some sort of career system is staying.

Hopefully with better careers, though. I am all right with people if they say "my Inquisitor, Fritz Holstein, used to be a beggar in Nuln before he became a Cavalryman" as a backstory, but let's not incorporate the rat-killing threadmill into the base game. Otherwise the game will be as boring as Simplicissimus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_abenteuerliche_Simplicissimus) (before he becomes a mercenary captain and starts to be a hero and take names, of course - the book really picked up after that).

But it surely won´t be retro-pretentiouss simulationist crap, it will be 100% gamist, and therefore be a HELP rather than the HINDRANCE the old I-read-one-book-on-tudor-england-and-now-know-shit system was.

Quote from: One Horse Town;320399You're just pissed at the bad German puns, Sett. Go on, admit it.

Those weren´t puns, those were brutal rapes of our powerful and logical language.
"Zahnarzt" is a Demon? WTF? That´s a fucking dentist!
"Eva Braun" is a Demon? Now that´s just tasteless.

I´m sure 3rd will do away with such petty (oh-we-are-so-glad-the-yanks-saved-our-sorry-asses-so-now-we-can-mock-germany-till-the-end-of-time) parochialisms.

I knew it! :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;312390Source. (http://www.graham-mcneill.com/gmblog/PermaLink,guid,24ed7843-8f78-48b7-a2cc-507afc907eab.aspx)

Quote of relevance:



My first reaction is horror.  But this is very little info to go on, so I'm trying to contain myself.

RPGPundit

I don't understand since this is apparently everything you've been asking for from publishers lately.

A boxed set that will be sold in regular stores, apparently made so beginners can join in the fun right away, at a reasonable price point. 100$ isn't that much if, like a board game, not everyone is expected to have their own copy.

Quote from: Melan;320332Who wants ratcatchers and sheepherds for heroes?

I immensely enjoy the low power fantasy aspect of Warhammer.  

However, as a WFB player since the early days, I have always found the disconnect between the war game and the RPG to be odd as they are essentially two related, but drasticly different settings.

Quote from: mhensley;320344Besides you have to buy the special dice from them only.

Brilliant move.  Kills piracy, keeps dice cashflow in house and adds a unique game aspect to the play.   Unlike all the other RPGs which use the same D20s, D10s or D6s, Warhammer will have its own distinct randomizers.

Quote from: One Horse Town;320381At first blush, it looks like a grab at current wargamers and the MMO gamers money. Shit, if there's a collectable aspect to it, GW might even stock this edition in their stores.

The problem I see with this strategy is that boardgamers and wargamers like to compete.   They like to win.   RPGs have no winners and not even an endgame like a cooperative boardgame.

Quote from: One Horse Town;320387What were you calling bullshit, Sett?

The voices in his head.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320410I don't understand since this is apparently everything you've been asking for from publishers lately.

A boxed set that will be sold in regular stores, apparently made so beginners can join in the fun right away, at a reasonable price point. 100$ isn't that much if, like a board game, not everyone is expected to have their own copy.

It won't be though. 100 dollar boardgames won't be sold in regular stores.

Go to Target and Walmart (or your country's equivalent) and see how many pricey boardgames there are.  By and large boardgames sell for less than a new console videogame.  The most expensive boardgames at such stores top out around 40 bucks, and rarely sell at that price point.

(New videogames sell for 50-60.)

I'm not interested, I won't buy it.  I have a ton of WHRPG 2nd edition stuff anyhow and thus don't need a new edition.

If I want to play some board tabletop hybrid I have Heroquest, Warhammer Quest, Space Crusade, and Doom the Boardgame in my collection and could easily get Descent or that Weird WW2 one.

Hell, yesterday some guy was talking about running Warhammer Quest.

With luck FFG will realize this is a game without a market and either scrap it or revise it into something people may actually want.

A board RPG hybrid with quasi Indie mechanics really has 3 seperate groups who DO NOT WANT, added in with the high price for casuals (who will immediately go the other way at the cost) and it replacing a version of the game that is generally beloved by its devoted playerbase and its a recipe for disaster.

Unless the RPGnet consumer whore crowd is even worse than I thought.  Then it will make fat cash.  And I will continue to hate my fellow gamers for being dipshits.

Quote from: Settembrini;320407Those weren´t puns, those were brutal rapes of our powerful and logical language.
"Zahnarzt" is a Demon? WTF? That´s a fucking dentist!
"Eva Braun" is a Demon? Now that´s just tasteless.

I´m sure 3rd will do away with such petty (oh-we-are-so-glad-the-yanks-saved-our-sorry-asses-so-now-we-can-mock-germany-till-the-end-of-time) parochialisms.

LOL The indignation! German pride at work. Priceless! :D

;)

WFB and WFRP both started at roughly the same power level, long long ago. But both moved in different directions. WFRP moved toward the dark and dingy, and WFB moved toward selling people $15 minis of hyper-muscular dudes with gigantic swords riding griffins.

What you have there, then, is a good argument for one system or the other requiring a name change, but you have a really bad argument for actually wanting to change WFRP, one of the best RPGs ever made (particularly the 2e version) into the WFB RPG of playing ridiculously overpowered characters based on $15 miniatures.

RPGPundit

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320410I don't understand since this is apparently everything you've been asking for from publishers lately.

A boxed set that will be sold in regular stores, apparently made so beginners can join in the fun right away, at a reasonable price point. 100$ isn't that much if, like a board game, not everyone is expected to have their own copy.

$100 is an absurd amount of money for a game. And I doubt very much that this game will end up selling to any meaningful amount of beginners.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Danger;320373Egad, FFG.

Well, it seems that rather than simply dally 'bout the edges and slowly modify this game, they gave a hearty, "fuck that," while dry humping old copies of White Dwarf and swilling down warm malt liquor.

At least that's how it looks to me.




I've simply got to stop re-reading my Transmetropolitan stuff while drinking as it appears to be affecting my ability to make rational comparisons anymore.

That seemed perfectly rational to me.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Settembrini;320386Bullshit!
WFRP was Cthulhu for the Fantasy crowd. NO CONNECTION to the actual source materiél!

No, Sett. WFRP 1e, the basic book, was a great game, it was later TURNED INTO CoC for the fantasy crowd in the minds of a great deal of Swine. It was never really that, though.
And WFRP 2e was very well guided by Black Industries as to never be able to become that. It featured some of the best fantasy adventures to have been written in decades, and was action packed gritty swords & sorcery play.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Melan;320332I don't see what's the problem. WFRP was really horribly dated and in dire need of a facelift. Nobody I know liked its shitty magic system, its slow and boring leveling, not to mention the useless and pathetic characters you were supposed to play. Who wants ratcatchers and sheepherds for heroes? Who wants to be afreaid of measly goblins? That's not a rewarding experience and plainly not fun for most of us. Everyone I know has always played the game with advanced career characters and most of us used dice pool systems. I suppose if the butthurt brigade really wants to enjoy getting gangrene from rat bites in some dank cellar

I don't know what kind of game you're talking about Melan, but over here, in MY WFRP 2e campaign, the PCs were killing minotaurs when they were still on their first adventure, and went on to become utterly kickass. The halfling who could convince anyone of almost anything, and the Dwarf that was a nigh-unstoppable killing machine particularly stood out.

It was a truly spectacular campaign, and it mainly came to an end because the characters had run out of things to seriously challenge them (we were going to go on to Karak Azgal, but decided to just let the campaign go instead).

RPGPundit

That doesn't sound bad at all. Now imagine how much raw awesome the overhauled, 3rd edition rules will bring to the game! I am sure they will have some brutal chaos beasts for the heroes to slay.

Minotaurs, Shminotaurs!

THIS is what we want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh-d18olxeE !!

Yeah, but a huge part of that awesome was the vast range of character possibilities: everything from scumbags to nobles, utterly non-combat charismatic-characters to killing machines. If all you get is to be superpowered killing machine from day one, you miss the whole point.

RPGPundit

Man, that´s quite stupid:

If being awesome is fun, being awesome RIGHT from the start is even MORE fun! Especially as you get to fight even bigger and badder evils ALL THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN!!
And in the end, I can control a VAST ARMY!

Now, compare that to a whore-pussy-cleaner, who after years of gaming becomes a DREADED WITCH HUNTER! Oh my!

Seriously, I prefer working from Witch Hunter TOWARDS something BETTER!

Quote from: Settembrini;320448Man, that´s quite stupid:

If being awesome is fun, being awesome RIGHT from the start is even MORE fun! Especially as you get to fight even bigger and badder evils ALL THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN!!
And in the end, I can control a VAST ARMY!

Now, compare that to a whore-pussy-cleaner, who after years of gaming becomes a DREADED WITCH HUNTER! Oh my!

Seriously, I prefer working from Witch Hunter TOWARDS something BETTER!

The game you want already exists. It's D&D 4E. Or REIGN. Or Exalted (YES I WENT THERE).

We don't need WFRP turning into that. I hope plenty of people at Gen Con tell them as much.

Aww, sorry, but I Warhammer was ALWAYS like THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKOhzfkCdbY

Warhammer was MATRIX when D&D was still HISTORY BOOK!!!!!

Damn. Sett and Melan seem to be channeling a dude... what's his name?  Fuck... eric something? Maybe? All they need now is big, forum raping sized pictures of chaos lords and Heavy Metal covers to complete the transition.

Quote from: Warthur;320451The game you want already exists. It's D&D 4E. Or REIGN. Or Exalted (YES I WENT THERE).

No, it's not.

It's Warhammer we're talking about. Not some intellectually bankrupt game smelling ass and sweat from the time their writers had to push their shit through and put it on the page.

No.

This is a real game innovation right there. The real deal.

In 2e, non-combat-focused characters are fairly viable because they bring other skillsets and other ways of solving problems to the team.

Quote from: Settembrini;320407Those weren´t puns, those were brutal rapes of our powerful and logical language.
"Zahnarzt" is a Demon? WTF? That´s a fucking dentist!
"Eva Braun" is a Demon? Now that´s just tasteless.

I´m sure 3rd will do away with such petty (oh-we-are-so-glad-the-yanks-saved-our-sorry-asses-so-now-we-can-mock-germany-till-the-end-of-time) parochialisms.

Playing with german speakers who are not ethnic germans, we had a great time laughing at the bad bad plays on words.

Dentist as demon: sure... most of them love pain.

But many such plays existed in WFB 3 & 4... it was not the exclusive Provence of WFRP.

And for us Yanks, picking on Germany seems to be a national hobby... along with picking on Poles, Russians, and South Americans.

Quote from: Settembrini;320448Man, that´s quite stupid:

If being awesome is fun, being awesome RIGHT from the start is even MORE fun! Especially as you get to fight even bigger and badder evils ALL THROUGH THE CAMPAIGN!!
And in the end, I can control a VAST ARMY!

Now, compare that to a whore-pussy-cleaner, who after years of gaming becomes a DREADED WITCH HUNTER! Oh my!

Seriously, I prefer working from Witch Hunter TOWARDS something BETTER!

So wait, when D&D did it, it was bad, but when WFRP does it, its suddenly good?

You're not being very consistent there, Sett.

No, being Awebringer McAwesome from day one is NOT the definition of a good game, its a definition of a game that will become boring pretty fucking quickly.

RPGPundit

There is a good chance, based on them commenting specifically about social situations and things to do whilst not fighting that there will be non-combat based careers.  While I think it's certainly likely characters will come across as being more capable in general.  I'm betting that the rules are not so much about simple pass/fail when it comes to something.  Likely it'll be about introducing more into the situation then a simple question of did you pick the lock or not.

It's entirely possible that this new version will not only do grim very well, but be engaging as well.  I think that mechanically it'll be pretty gamie but that doesn't mean it can't create a good story around what you do with those game elements.  Slapping a card with some text could move the story forward.  Where it'll suck is if all your free choice of actions are removed and turned into a case of what card do I choose.

I'll be sure to get out of the way.

-clash

Quote from: RPGPundit;320443Yeah, but a huge part of that awesome was the vast range of character possibilities: everything from scumbags to nobles, utterly non-combat charismatic-characters to killing machines. If all you get is to be superpowered killing machine from day one, you miss the whole point.

RPGPundit

I agree with this. It's nice having the option to start off as either an asskicker or an everyman.

You're all WRONG! It's going to be the next best thing since sliced bread and Fourth Edition! :D

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320424It won't be though. 100 dollar boardgames won't be sold in regular stores.

Quote from: RPGPundit$100 is an absurd amount of money for a game. And I doubt very much that this game will end up selling to any meaningful amount of beginners.

By regular store I meant not at the FLGS.

I can find really expensive games at almost any book store in my town. A french copy of Agricola goes for 75$ in my parts. Dominion is 55$ - for a bunch of cards and a rules leaflet. Talisman is 85$. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that 100$ (which I expect to be about 115$ in english and 130$ in french in my province) isn't even going to make people twitch.

What's more I have no doubt that beginners will have no problem getting their parents to buy the game because it doesn't look like a roleplaying game. One of the most common objections I've seen raised by parents when their kid wants them to buy a 40$ RPG rulebook is "that looks like a lot of work, are you sure you won't get bored and give up?"

I don't know that it's a game I'll want to play, but I'll give anything a shot at least once.

I am pretty sure it isn't a game I'll buy - $100 is very steep from what I saw of the box contents.  I'm sure half of that or more is because of the custom dice.... which I'd be worried my cat would steal.  Most fatally, the limited number of players would be a major buzzkill for my group of 5-7 players any given night.  I shudder to think how much more expensive that would get with the expansions, and I wouldn't want to tell any of them, "Sorry, we have too many players for Warhammer tonight."

But really, I have my WFRP2 books - almost the complete collection - and I love the game.  And this may be radical, but I can always keep playing that one, you know?  They haven't done anything to WFRP2 - it's still around and playable, just out of print like many other awesome games are.  They've just released a new edition which I might or might not like - it's hardly something to get pissed about.

-O

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320484By regular store I meant not at the FLGS.

I can find really expensive games at almost any book store in my town. A french copy of Agricola goes for 75$ in my parts. Dominion is 55$ - for a bunch of cards and a rules leaflet. Talisman is 85$. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that 100$ (which I expect to be about 115$ in english and 130$ in french in my province) isn't even going to make people twitch.

And NONE of those you mentioned are "break-through" games with vast appeal among new gamers. They are specialty games for geeks looking for that particular type of game.

To suggest that the average 12-year old (or parent shopping for a 12-year old) is going to go for this is just absurd.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;320509And NONE of those you mentioned are "break-through" games with vast appeal among new gamers. They are specialty games for geeks looking for that particular type of game.

To suggest that the average 12-year old (or parent shopping for a 12-year old) is going to go for this is just absurd.

RPGPundit

What the fuck are you talking about? Those were clearly meant as exemples of the kind of prices people will pay for games nowadays and nothing more.

Do you really, honestly believe that people still give a shit about paying over 100$ if the product looks like it's worth that much?

You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a regular 14-year old non-gamer will spontaneously buy Talisman or Dominion, or any other board game priced over about $30.

These aren't fucking RISK or Axis & Allies. They're not selling in the millions.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;320519You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a regular 14-year old non-gamer will spontaneously buy Talisman or Dominion, or any other board game priced over about $30.

These aren't fucking RISK or Axis & Allies. They're not selling in the millions.

RPGPundit

You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a 14-year old non-gamer is spending his own money to buy games.

And what the fuck are you talking about with your "selling millions"? Is that the new lunacy-induced bar that games now have to reach to meet your nebulously fickle criteria?

In reality-land, almost all roleplaying games except for D&D can only wish they could sell as many copies as most expensive board games like the ones companies like FFG and Days of Wonder produce.

From where I'm standing, FFG's attempt to make people see roleplaying games in a new light by spicing up the game aspect of it instead of the storytelling wankery aspect looks like a smart move; one you would probably be applauding if FFG didn't also happen to do it on the corpse of one of your RPGsite darlings.

Quote from: SpikeDamn. Sett and Melan seem to be channeling a dude... what's his name? Fuck... eric something? Maybe? All they need now is big, forum raping sized pictures of chaos lords and Heavy Metal covers to complete the transition.

It looks like Americans are not very good with irony, even the blatantly obvious. Their secret weakness? Hmmm.

Melan: What Sett and Melan are doing isn't irony, it's sarcasm.

It's also inane, but hey... some people think inane is funny. In text, however, sarcasm often falls flat.

Irony would be if they believed the crap they are spouting.

Thank you for the correction; based on your posts in this thread, I defer to your judgement on the recognition of irony and/or sarcasm.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320513Do you really, honestly believe that people still give a shit about paying over 100$ if the product looks like it's worth that much?

Actually? Yes, they do. The third digit itself is a huge psychological barrier.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320519You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a regular 14-year old non-gamer will spontaneously buy Talisman or Dominion, or any other board game priced over about $30.

The majority of teens believe "game" = video game and thus, anything that doesn't play on a screen will be off their radar - it just not part of their culture.  

Thus, the only potential teen target are teens who already define "game" as more than just video games and probably are into boardgames.  

The advantage of marketing toward board gamers is that most them play lots of games, unlike RPG players who tend to stick to D&D or at best, two or three others.   Board gamers may own and play dozens of games.  Also, with games like Dominion, Arkham, Doom, Descent and other, the definition of "board game" is being broken down and hybrids are much more welcome.

Quote from: Benoist;320547The third digit itself is a huge psychological barrier.

That why its $99!

I hate the bullshit argument about WFRP and WHFB not being the same universe anymore.  They're no more seperate universes than Dark Heresy vs. WH40K, they just focus on different parts of it and different moods and levels of society.

They're big fucking universes.  Just because one book decides to focus on poorly trained amatuers blundering through a cult investigation, while another is about big fuckers in powered armor smashing demons in the face, doesn't mean they can't both be part of the same place.

Stop being so goddamn singleminded about everything.  Any good universe can be run a multitude of ways from many angles.

Quote from: J Arcane;320550Any good universe can be run a multitude of ways from many angles.

Agreed, but there are customer expectations.   If I buy a Star Wars RPG, I had better be able to play a version of Luke, Han and R2.  So for the WFB fan is going to want to play his favorite mini.  

Chances are, his favorite mini is some badass hero fig.   This is why when WFB players show up at my WFRP games, I tell them its Mordheim level gameplay and they get it.

As for the 3e, I can't be worried right now.  My Warhammer energies are focussed on a future Savage Worlds Necromunda campaign and playing with my Tyranid army.

Or, you know, we can not be condescending, insulting shitheads, and actually assume they're capable of making the creative leap to understanding other possibilities of the universe.

But I suppose I should expect as much who posts shit like this:  

QuoteThe majority of teens believe "game" = video game and thus, anything that doesn't play on a screen will be off their radar - it just not part of their culture.

You know why kids don't want to join your precious fucking hobby?  Because no one likes being treated like a fucking idiot, ESPECIALLY not teenagers.  The last thing that will win votes from the youth is treating them like a bunch of fucking braindead kindergartners.

Quote from: Benoist;320547Actually? Yes, they do. The third digit itself is a huge psychological barrier.

Which is why the price point is $99.95...

That nickel makes a good bit of difference for some people.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320424It won't be though. 100 dollar boardgames won't be sold in regular stores.

I'm willing to bet FFG's boardgame Descent has sold more copies since its release than any RPG except D&D. They don't have to sell a Warhammer RPG for $40 at Target to make it a very successful by RPG standards.

I won't be buying the game. But if you think there's no market for a quasi RPG/boardgame for $100, then you must not follow the boardgame side of the market very closely.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320509And NONE of those you mentioned are "break-through" games with vast appeal among new gamers. They are specialty games for geeks looking for that particular type of game.

To suggest that the average 12-year old (or parent shopping for a 12-year old) is going to go for this is just absurd.

And who suggested that? Not FGG. They don't need to publish the next Red Box D&D for the game to be a success. I'm sure they'd be pleased with 20,000 units. In a RPG market where most 'successful' games have initial print runs of around 2,000-4,000, that looks pretty good.

Quote from: J Arcane;320550Stop being so goddamn singleminded about everything.

Aren't you the one who posted that they'd better not touch "your" Dark Heresy?

Quote from: J Arcane;320557Or, you know, we can not be condescending, insulting shitheads, and actually assume they're capable of making the creative leap to understanding other possibilities of the universe.

You know why kids don't want to join your precious fucking hobby?  Because no one likes being treated like a fucking idiot, ESPECIALLY not teenagers.  The last thing that will win votes from the youth is treating them like a bunch of fucking braindead kindergartners.

Agreed.

It's not price points keeping kids out of the hobby.  It's the continuing stigma that keeps being perpetuated.

Lets also add that they probably don't want to sit in a smelly shop looking at some fat cat piss smelling person with Cheetos dust still in his beard.  Also that parents don't like entering stores that are flocked with said people who look up at them like *they* are the freaks.  That stigma will keep games out of their teenagers hands as much, if not more then anything.

Where I live we really only have about 2 significant gaming stores of any worth.  One caters pretty much to mini-games, with a smattering of RPG's, board games and collectibles.  They have gaming tables setup and a constant crowd of people loitering about and it smells like the stereo type.  It stays in business because of it's loyal fans that are all friends and hang out there 24/7.  I think the store makes money more through osmosis then actual sales.

The other store is a rather large primarily boardgame and collectible store.  But the sell pretty much everything, art supplies, greeting cards, lego's stuffed animals, comics, minis, rpg's, educational stuf etc.... They don't have gaming tables they are friendly and approachable and they have a constant stream of sales of $50+ games.  Games like Descent, Doom, Eve, Android, and Dominion don't stay on the shelves.  

Parents bring their kids in there regularly just to shop around.  It's places like that keep kids in the hobby.  Parents see that normal people partake of this activity and don't feel odd that their kids are hanging out in some smelly questionable place.

In stores like that WFRP can do well, because it will look awesome sitting on the shelf and it'll be sitting alongside other similarly priced games.  It's a known name in the hobby industry and it could very easily bridge the gap between Descent and previous RPG's.

I'm still not wholy sold on the idea, but I'm warming to what they are trying to accomplish.  I do still feel that the price point is about %20 to high.

It's a $100 it seems for a four person game, three players and one GM.

It is starting to look like you need to buy expansions to add players, though I still hope that's wrong.

If that is the case though, that's a big problem.  Four is too few, most rpg groups are five to six participants, most boardgames play at five to six as their sweet spot, four is too few.

On that basis, to play it in my group my entry cost is $100 plus the first expansion, at that point it's getting pretty pricey.

Quote from: Haffrung;320579I'm willing to bet FFG's boardgame Descent has sold more copies since its release than any RPG except D&D. They don't have to sell a Warhammer RPG for $40 at Target to make it a very successful by RPG standards.

I won't be buying the game. But if you think there's no market for a quasi RPG/boardgame for $100, then you must not follow the boardgame side of the market very closely.

So how is it going to outsell Descent?  It costs $20 more and comes with much, much less.  I know which one I'd pick.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320519You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a regular 14-year old non-gamer will spontaneously buy Talisman or Dominion, or any other board game priced over about $30.

These aren't fucking RISK or Axis & Allies. They're not selling in the millions.

Just for comparison:

What does a starter box of Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40.000 cost?
To whom is GW marketing the game, and who buys it?
How successful are those games?

I am on a similar fence with this "Third Edition" as I am with the other "Fourth Edition"--I think both games are (or will be) fully playable and fun (for the right kind of players), but I am despised by their publishers decision to alienate their life long customers.  D&D4 wouldn't be so controversial if it hadn't been called "D&D", and I am surprised that GW wants to do a similar "burning of bridges" with their WH RPG.

While I can understand WotC's reasons--they couldn't publish a second fantasy RPG along with 3.5--I don't understand GW. "Warhammer" is already a varied franchise with different product types sharing the name, and there would have been room for a new Warhammer Quest along with WH FB and WH FRP2.

Quote from: Balbinus;320613It's a $100 it seems for a four person game, three players and one GM.
(...)
If that is the case though, that's a big problem.  Four is too few, most rpg groups are five to six participants, most boardgames play at five to six as their sweet spot, four is too few.

I am not that sure about this. It might be true for us older players (I don't like to GM for only three players, so I am partly with you) but that might be a case of the way we learned it to be and the way our social circles operated in the 80s and 90s. I do see a different social world when it comes to today's youngsters, and a game that does not rely on large groups having to coordinate their schedules might actually be a good idea. If that game also has a solution for the GM problem (quick prep and almost out-of-the-box playability) then they might be onto something.I for one am quite happy that one of the big players wants to give it a try.

That the old WH FRP has to die for this is lamentable and despicable but last time I saw a WH shelf the game looked pretty much "done" for me--in the sense of "complete"--and WH FRP was never a game aimed at beginners. This upcoming incarnation seems to fit much better into the product family and target demographic--not grognards but 14 year olds who will, for a period of 2-3 years, buy a lot of GW stuff and move on to other hobbies.

As much as I dislike the "burning of bridges" approach, I am too interested in seeing how this plan unfolds to be mad at Games Workshop.

Quote from: Fifth Element;320585Aren't you the one who posted that they'd better not touch "your" Dark Heresy?

Way to miss the point there, douchebag.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320528You're pretty freaking out of touch if you think that a 14-year old non-gamer is spending his own money to buy games.

Ok, let's go through this step by step, you motherfucking retard:

1. We are assuming a 14 year old boy who does NOT know about RPGs, and wants to get into something cool.
2. Right, you've already conceded the point that there's no 14 year old who would, himself, when window shopping, spontaneously drop $100 on a game he's never heard of.
3. That leaves parents.

4. Now, if you're a parent, wandering around the toy shoppe, looking for something for your kid, you are also not going to drop $100 on something your kid hasn't specifically asked you for.

Conclusion: Unless FFG plans to make a massive marketing campaign so that every kid in america is ASKING mommy and daddy for the new WFRP, this is NOT a fucking introductory game.
An introductory game is a $25 box set that sells at Toys R Us, not a $100 mega-compendium that will probably only sell in FLGSes, GW stores, and specialty game stores for old fat math nerds who like stupid German math-games.

QuoteAnd what the fuck are you talking about with your "selling millions"? Is that the new lunacy-induced bar that games now have to reach to meet your nebulously fickle criteria?

Perhaps you haven't heard of this game:
(http://sob.apotheon.org/img/dnd_redbox_full.jpg)

That, you cunt, THAT is the fucking "criteria".

RPGPundit

Quote from: Haffrung;320582And who suggested that? Not FGG. They don't need to publish the next Red Box D&D for the game to be a success. I'm sure they'd be pleased with 20,000 units. In a RPG market where most 'successful' games have initial print runs of around 2,000-4,000, that looks pretty good.

Now you're shifting Marion's goalposts. He'd stated that this was the "new introductory game" that everyone had been waiting for, that would bring new blood into the hobby on a massive scale.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;320628Just for comparison:

What does a starter box of Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40.000 cost?
To whom is GW marketing the game, and who buys it?
How successful are those games?

In the UK, Games Workshop has excellent adversing by providing babysitting facilities for teenage boys right in the middle of shopping centres. The fact that replicating that model in the states has been so hard is a reason for its poor penetration.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;320628Just for comparison:

What does a starter box of Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40.000 cost?
To whom is GW marketing the game, and who buys it?
How successful are those games?

Warhammer Fantasy Battle: Battle For Skull Pass  
$75 and it comes with over 100 minis.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320655Now you're shifting Marion's goalposts. He'd stated that this was the "new introductory game" that everyone had been waiting for, that would bring new blood into the hobby on a massive scale.

RPGPundit

Yeah! Except for the part where I didn't.

"apparently made so beginners can join in the fun right away" is what I said. I may be a retard and a cunt, but I can fucking follow a simple discourse.

While my only real issue is the title they've used for the product, I think it's ridiculous to think of rpg marketing only in terms of the rpg market.

High end board games, miniatures games, and rpgs are competitors for the same dollars and time and the same customer base.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320653An introductory game is a $25 box set that sells at Toys R Us, not a $100 mega-compendium that will probably only sell in FLGSes, GW stores, and specialty game stores for old fat math nerds who like stupid German math-games.

There are a half-dozens stores in Calgary alone that sell Descent, Arkham Horror, BattleLore, and other fantasy boardgames. The boardgame scene is growing by leaps and bounds. Settlers of Catan has sold a half a million units in the U.S. alone in the last four years. And that's with no advertising to speak of. And only now is Toys R Us even considering stocking Settlers. If you think any pen and paper RPG has a shot at making it unto the shelves of Toys R Us, you're batshit fucking insane.

Descent and the like have a far more varied player demographic than WFRP 2E. Parents, kids, teenagers, couples. Fantasy Flight is a successful company in a growing market. Can any RPG publishers say the same thing? It's pen and paper RPGs that are played by a shrinking population of greying fatbeards.

QuoteThat, you cunt, THAT is the fucking "criteria".

By your criteria, there has only been one introductory RPG ever produced. And outside a few dozen bitter old DMs who post on RPG forums, everyone else in the world who plays or makes games understands that the halcyon days of D&D were a once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon that will never happen again.

But don't let that stop you from setting such insane criteria for a successful or introductory RPGs that you can sit back and judge every single person in the RPG industry as a fucking moron for not achieving it.

If you want to go around claiming that pen and paper fantasy RPGs have a more widespread appeal than boardgames, go right fucking ahead. It'll just make you look like even more of an embittered crank.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320664Yeah! Except for the part where I didn't.

"apparently made so beginners can join in the fun right away" is what I said. I may be a retard and a cunt, but I can fucking follow a simple discourse.

You were claiming that it was an "introductory game"· in the sense I've always been arguing for here and on my blog. I can tell you without a fucking doubt it is NOT: It is not because of the price, because of the presentation, and unless they do something radically different with regards to marketing than what I expect they do, it will utterly fail in that regard too.

This game is meant to sell to EXISTING GAMERS and to Warhammer Fantasy Battle fans who are not RPG gamers. That's the only possible penetration it will have. And I think that it will STILL fail to draw the latter demographic in.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Haffrung;320677If you want to go around claiming that pen and paper fantasy RPGs have a more widespread appeal than boardgames, go right fucking ahead. It'll just make you look like even more of an embittered crank.

Of course they don't. And the day someone makes an RPG (even just a half-decent one will do) in a boardgame box that sells for $20-40 in regular stores (NOT Comic stores or FLGSes), it will be a spectacular success, like Basic D&D was.

That is NOT what this game is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Haffrung;320677There are a half-dozens stores in Calgary alone that sell Descent, Arkham Horror, BattleLore, and other fantasy boardgames. The boardgame scene is growing by leaps and bounds. Settlers of Catan has sold a half a million units in the U.S. alone in the last four years. And that's with no advertising to speak of. And only now is Toys R Us even considering stocking Settlers. If you think any pen and paper RPG has a shot at making it unto the shelves of Toys R Us, you're batshit fucking insane.

Uhh.. you know that game picture Pundit posted?  IT USED TO BE SOLD IN TRU.  Wow.  RPGs HAVE been sold in toy stores.  Maybe a company could do it.. again?  Nahh.. that requires doing more than catering to the hobby game market which seems to happily shit itself whenever a totally new incompatible game edition comes out that makes them rebuy all their old shit and whine about anyone who dares stick with the old game or actually GASP!  realize using new money to buy their old shit intentionally modified to force them to do so doesn't exactly work so well.

Or is the ever shrinking RPG market soley because of videogames?  Oh wait.. people played videogames in the 70s and 80s too.  And nobody EVER bought D&D or Battletech computer games.  That silly Dawn of War game?  Didn't bring anyone into 40K and its overpriced unbalanced gameplay.

QuoteDescent and the like have a far more varied player demographic than WFRP 2E. Parents, kids, teenagers, couples. Fantasy Flight is a successful company in a growing market. Can any RPG publishers say the same thing? It's pen and paper RPGs that are played by a shrinking population of greying fatbeards.

You know WHY FFG is popular?  Pretty products with tons of toy value and generally decent gameplay.  (Generally.  Their World of Warcraft game SUCKED ASS, and Twilight Imperium is known as "That Master of Orion boardgame that nobody actually finishes".)

Of course boardgames do well.  They are SELF CONTAINED GAMES that new editions don't magically make the old one go away or fragment the playerbase.  One person buys the game and you can play for ever.  Expansions are available, but optional.  I love Settlers of Catan, but it and Seafarers are the only things I bought.  I BS my way with paper counters for 5-6 player games, and the other big expansion to the game (Cities and Knights) basically turns a wonderful casual game even most nongamers like into a spergy borefest.  You don't actually NEED the expansions unlike RPGs that all but force people to buy them.  And when they run out of obvious expansions?  NEW EDITION TIME FUCKERS.

One person buys a boardgame.  Then its standalone fun forever.  And most boardgames aren't intended to be played every week for months on end.  Most can be finished in a single game session and usually only needs 3 people to play.  No massive organized group getting their schedules in order to play at a certain time reliably for months on end.  

Most boardgames have rather simple rules too.  I can teach Wings of War in 5 minutes.  The card game Kings Blood in about the same.  Catan, Carcassonne, or Ticket to Ride likewise.  TransEuropa/America even less.  Kung Fu Fighting takes like 2 minutes.  Tsuro is a 2 sentence set of game rules.  Blokus as well.

Try doing it with the ever increasingly spergy RPG rulesets.  Plus most RPG core books are like 40-50 bucks now.  For that price most boardgames can be purchased with neat toys in the box and MUCH less reading.  You get percieved VALUE for your money.  In an RPG you get an expensive coffee table book that usually isn't even convenient for in play use.

Right now the closest we have to a value for money RPG is Tunnels & Trolls 7.5 which I have never even SEEN in a game store.  I had to preorder the damn thing from the publisher. It was 35 bucks for a complete game with tons of handy spiral bound books and counters in it.

QuoteBy your criteria, there has only been one introductory RPG ever produced. And outside a few dozen bitter old DMs who post on RPG forums, everyone else in the world who plays or makes games understands that the halcyon days of D&D were a once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon that will never happen again.

But don't let that stop you from setting such insane criteria for a successful or introductory RPGs that you can sit back and judge every single person in the RPG industry as a fucking moron for not achieving it.

If you want to go around claiming that pen and paper fantasy RPGs have a more widespread appeal than boardgames, go right fucking ahead. It'll just make you look like even more of an embittered crank.

No, RPGs don't.  But they could.  If we get the RPGnet consumer whore morons, the White Wolf players who all seem to want a mixture of Machiavelli meets Grand Theft Auto, and the D&D only brandsluts to get the fuck OUT, we may have a chance.

To hell with full color hardbacks.  To hell with massively detailed game systems appealing to sperge freaks.  (Just look how well ever increasing detail did to hex and chit wargames and the "machine sheet" wargame genre.  Wargames are effectively dead, machine sheet games are only slightly above them.  How many people play Starfleet Battles or Car Wars today?  Howabout Battletech?  Those games used to be MAJOR titles in gaming.)

More fast and fun games like D6 Star Wars or Ghostbusters.  Here is an RPG challenge.  Every ESSENTIAL and NEEDED rule for an RPG should be summarizable on a single sheet of paper.  If a player can read this one page and be ready to make their first character and then get into the game, its enough rules.

The GM?  At best, a 48 page booklet which should include everything they need to get going.  And maybe a 12-16 page introductory scenario for teaching them how to run a game.

There is another thing RPGs mostly miss too these days.  Nobody outside of other nerds KNOWS about it.

Where is the cartoon on tv?  Advertisements?  Videogames?  Action figure tie ins?

I know many gamers sneer at the Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh kids, but look what cartoon and videogame tie ins did there.  Hell, the Pokemon cartoon was so huge it literally cemented Nintendo's hold over the portable game market for another decade even with at the time an inferior aging machine.  The market bought the game, they watched the show, they bought into the CCG in mad numbers.  

Yu Gi Oh did the same, and now Bakugan is doing it.

Imagine how well Heroscape would have done with a TV show.  

Even Battletech and Heavy Gear had cartoons, though thanks to the games not being available at toy stores it didn't help much, but it STILL brought some new people into the fold.

Marketing matters.  Word of mouth doesn't do much of anything.

I have been promoting RPGs not named D&D for fucking YEARS.  Most of the time people look at me like I just whipped my wang out and started jerkin it.

The gamer market can go fuck off.  

We need new blood that hasn't been tainted by the stupid.  People who RPGnet and the Camarilla haven't turned into douchebags yet.  Folks who haven't drunk the Games Workshop Kool Aid and think 5 unassembled unpainted 1 inch tall plastic figurines are worth 50 dollars.

The only way to grow gaming is to get NEW people.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320687You were claiming that it was an "introductory game"· in the sense I've always been arguing for here and on my blog. I can tell you without a fucking doubt it is NOT: It is not because of the price, because of the presentation, and unless they do something radically different with regards to marketing than what I expect they do, it will utterly fail in that regard too.

This game is meant to sell to EXISTING GAMERS and to Warhammer Fantasy Battle fans who are not RPG gamers. That's the only possible penetration it will have. And I think that it will STILL fail to draw the latter demographic in.

RPGPundit

Oh, I don't think for a minute it'll be an introductory roleplaying game in the way we usually think of introductory roleplaying games. But I bet it's made to be played by anyone right out of the box, like a regular board game. That's why I see a lot of potential for attracting a new crowd in this fusion of board game and roleplaying game.

And whatever else you may think, the 100$ price tag is not an issue. If the production values are right (and with FFG they usually are) people will pay. All that matters is how good the game is. If WFRP3 is good, it will sell on the strength of FFG's brand alone - and if it sells well enough it may end up being the best thing that happened to the hobby in a while.

FFG makes wicked awesome boardgames.  That's what this is in fact, and that's how I'll take it.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691Right now the closest we have to a value for money RPG is Tunnels & Trolls 7.5 which I have never even SEEN in a game store.  I had to preorder the damn thing from the publisher. It was 35 bucks for a complete game with tons of handy spiral bound books and counters in it.

I bought mine at  Bosco's Comics and Games, 2606 Spenard Road, Anchorage, AK... in person. As of two weeks ago, they had another copy on the shelf. Hobbycraft also has had it on the shelves in their Dimond Center location.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691The only way to grow gaming is to get NEW people.

And that's the one problem with T&T 7.x... Ken doesn't feel it can be an introductory ruleset.

(well, that, and not having Liz Danforth's editorial touches...)

8.0 is likely to be a little bit more newb-friendly (IE, better explained)...

Quote from: RPGPundit;320687This game is meant to sell to EXISTING GAMERS and to Warhammer Fantasy Battle fans who are not RPG gamers. That's the only possible penetration it will have. And I think that it will STILL fail to draw the latter demographic in.

RPGPundit

Hell, as far as I can tell, this game isn't even meant to sell to current WHFRP players.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691Most boardgames have rather simple rules too.

Well, perhaps.  But FFG games tend not to, for example.

I've recently played A Game of Thrones and Arkham Horror, neither I would call exactly simple.  None would pass your rpg page count tests.  Similarly, 1960 was far from simple.

And that's not getting into the older games I've played like the (admittedly famously complex) Republic of Rome or Kremlin.

I think boardgame simplicity gets overstated.  Most rulesets I have go to about 30 to 40 pages of rules.  Now, that's still a fraction of rpgs, and much of it is examples, so I agree with the essence of your point, but I wouldn't go as far as simple.  It's just that rpgs are hideously complex.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691Plus most RPG core books are like 40-50 bucks now.  For that price most boardgames can be purchased with neat toys in the box and MUCH less reading.  You get percieved VALUE for your money.  In an RPG you get an expensive coffee table book that usually isn't even convenient for in play use.

You get boardgames way cheaper than I do.  I tend to pay 1.5 to 2 times the price of an rpg for most boardgames.

I do get better value for that spend though.  A fully playable game, rather than a fat book with often doubtfully tested rules.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;320691More fast and fun games like D6 Star Wars or Ghostbusters.  Here is an RPG challenge.  Every ESSENTIAL and NEEDED rule for an RPG should be summarizable on a single sheet of paper.  If a player can read this one page and be ready to make their first character and then get into the game, its enough rules.

The GM?  At best, a 48 page booklet which should include everything they need to get going.  And maybe a 12-16 page introductory scenario for teaching them how to run a game.

How many rpgs in history pass that challenge?  Very few I think.

I agree with you that many current games are way too complex, but that's driven by market pressures.  A simple game is hard to pad in such a way you can charge forty bucks for it after all.  But one page?  That's pretty tight, too tight I think.  I would have two to four closer to the mark, and even then I'd note most games fail by a mile.

Great post though, I disagree with you on some details, but not on the essential point.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;320711Hell, as far as I can tell, this game isn't even meant to sell to current WHFRP players.

Correct.

and it's wuffrup. :cool:

Q: If a company want's to make a game for non-gamers they need to:

A. Listen to people who waste hours of their lives on RPG forums masturbating over some stupid fucking game or another.

B. Listen to some twat who gets off on being a "big-man" in our shitty little corner of the ass-hole of the entertainment market.

C. Listen to a bunch of fat-beards, cat-piss men, lawn crappers, spending thousands of dollars and hours upon hours of their time going to Indianapolis.*

What do you think?

Fuck guys, we've established that WE are the fucking problem.

WE are the ass-holes demanding games that are doomed to bore everyone else to fucking tears.

If I were actually trying to make a game to appeal to normal people the last fucking thing I'd do is listen to us.

If you want a game that people are going to like you're going to have to get out of the fucking way OR be content with your hobby and forget it ever being popular again.


*Not everyone who goes to gen-con falls into the above categories but it only takes a handful to out-smell and out-shout and out-loser everyone else.

So Piestrio, who do you think is capable of creating this mythical RPG?

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;320724So Piestrio, who do you think is capable of creating this mythical RPG?

Hell if I know.

I'm part of the problem remember? ;)

Quote from: Piestrio;320725Hell if I know.

I'm part of the problem remember? ;)

We're doomed!

My argument boils down to this:

When RPGs began to tank in the 80's TSR decided to market more and more toward their most dedicated (and highest spending) fans. This locked TSR catering more and more to a smaller and smaller group of people with tastes antithetical to the mass-market.

We are the descendants of that "core" spendthrift market. We are bred and raised on games that most people just plain don't fucking have any interest in. A truly popular mass-market game would probably not sell well or be well liked in the "hobby".

It would be different. We know what we want sure, and if you want to sell to us you should pay attention to us.

But if you don't want to sell to us, the best we will do is poison your game.

Quote from: Piestrio;320721Q: If a company want's to make a game for non-gamers they need to:

A. Listen to people who waste hours of their lives on RPG forums masturbating over some stupid fucking game or another.

B. Listen to some twat who gets off on being a "big-man" in our shitty little corner of the ass-hole of the entertainment market.

C. Listen to a bunch of fat-beards, cat-piss men, lawn crappers, spending thousands of dollars and hours upon hours of their time going to Indianapolis.*

What do you think?

I think we need a D.

You're right, of course.

Quote from: Fifth Element;320741I think we need a D.

You wouldn't know it listening to this crowd.

Company: "How can we stop pandering to "Gamers" and sell our game to more people?"

Gamers: "I know! You could try pandering to us some more!"

So, Piestrio, have you stopped beating your wife? Just curious. :wizard:

Quote from: RPGPundit;320688And the day someone makes an RPG (even just a half-decent one will do) in a boardgame box that sells for $20-40 in regular stores (NOT Comic stores or FLGSes), it will be a spectacular success, like Basic D&D was.

What makes you believe this is true for 2010?

QuoteIf you want a game that people are going to like you're going to have to get out of the fucking way OR be content with your hobby and forget it ever being popular again.

Let me take a wild stab in the dark and guess you're a 4e fan.

I'm sadly a little too familiar with that line at this point.  The irony of it is, it's generally being shouted by people every bit as irrelevant as they claim their opponents are.  Not to mention the usual "less geeky than thou" undertones, particularly popular on RPGnet.  

The general extremism of your posts are just as readily obvious.  You crow a lot about the dangers of hardcoreism, and it's a fair point, but you conveniently ignore the dangers of abandoning the core market entirely.  Not to mention the excluded middle approach of balancing the two to ensure everyone gets to have fun.  No, instead it's just typical technologism and faux populism aimed at a non-existent populace.  

You're boring.  If you don't have anything new to offer than last years 4e talking points and geek hate, save your fucking breath.  

0/10.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320509And NONE of those you mentioned are "break-through" games with vast appeal among new gamers. They are specialty games for geeks looking for that particular type of game.

To suggest that the average 12-year old (or parent shopping for a 12-year old) is going to go for this is just absurd.

RPGPundit

And yet people outlay shit tons to just start the tabletop game. The buy in price for Warhammer miniatures is staggering. Yet during the start of the current economic woes, GW were actually doing very well, even though it would be obvious logic to assume they would be among the first to fall to a recession. Not long after they put their prices up!

This game isn't that much more expensive than Dark Heresy, which costs £40 - I imagine this will be no more than £60. The WFB starter box is £40 and you don't get anywhere near as much as you WILL need to play the long term.

This price argument is bullshit.

I think it's good to see them trying something different. The only things that concern me are the buy in to add more players (which is phenomenally stupid), and the potential for getting this into GW stores, which seems the ultimate goal.

Dark Heresy was $50. WFRP3 is $100.
Twice the price, half the portability.

I'll admit I'm curious, but I can't justify the price. Waiting for rejected copies to hit ebay....

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;320857The only things that concern me are the buy in to add more players (which is phenomenally stupid), and the potential for getting this into GW stores, which seems the ultimate goal.

I though I saw some mention of an Adventurer's Box.  I suspect that will provide numerous character options and thus be the game expander.  It will be interesting to see how many boxes they eventually crank out for the game line.

I am surprised they limited the basic set to 3 players + GM.    I wonder if they have market data that backs up that choice.   4 + GM would have been the minimum in my mind.

Quote from: aramis;320859Dark Heresy was $50. WFRP3 is $100.
Twice the price, half the portability.

I'll admit I'm curious, but I can't justify the price. Waiting for rejected copies to hit ebay....

The Starcraft big (BIG box boardgame is £50 here. I doubt this game will be any different and won't have anywhere near the parts. Even the new Middle Earth big box game is only £60. The pricetag is expensive per se, but I don't see it being the reason this will fail when warhammer fans regularly outlay (fuck knows ow, looking at some of them) way way WAY more for the tabletop game.

There is no real way of knowing what the UK price will be at this point, prices are set per country depending upon the internal market.

Quote from: J Arcane;320851Let me take a wild stab in the dark and guess you're a 4e fan.

I'm sadly a little too familiar with that line at this point.  The irony of it is, it's generally being shouted by people every bit as irrelevant as they claim their opponents are.  Not to mention the usual "less geeky than thou" undertones, particularly popular on RPGnet.  

The general extremism of your posts are just as readily obvious.  You crow a lot about the dangers of hardcoreism, and it's a fair point, but you conveniently ignore the dangers of abandoning the core market entirely.  Not to mention the excluded middle approach of balancing the two to ensure everyone gets to have fun.  No, instead it's just typical technologism and faux populism aimed at a non-existent populace.  

You're boring.  If you don't have anything new to offer than last years 4e talking points and geek hate, save your fucking breath.  

0/10.

Nope sorry, not a huge 4e fan. Played it once, was like "meh"

IN FACT, 4e is one of the games I'm talking about when I say "Only a geek could love it" it's got all the stupid focus on all the crap that no-one cares about but us. Combing through lists of powers and "building" a character after spending $90 of huge fucking books and then wanking off about "tactics" is just NOT that fun for most people.

In fact I didn't even really like 3e.

I'm more an AD&D guy when I'm looking to play D&D.

Sorry I don't fit into you're little box.

EDIT: And to be clear I LIKE the games we have now (for the most part). I've just reconciled myself to the fact that a REALLY popular mainstream rpg will be sufficiently different from what I like that it's kinda silly to hope for.

Kinda like Pundit and Vampire. Fact is it was a great popular, intro rpg. But also changed the face of rpgs into something he didn't like. Sucks for him.

It'll look less like somehting we want and more like this:

(http://www.timeaftertimetoys.com/images/OSITpicks/MISCELLANEOUS/POKEMON%20JR.%20ADVENTURE%20GAME%20F.JPG)

Quote from: Piestrio;320744You wouldn't know it listening to this crowd.

Oh yes. I'm not saying that you forgot the D. I'm saying there really isn't a D (at least not a significant one), but we should get one.

Quote from: Spinachcat;320850What makes you believe this is true for 2010?

Indeed. I could point to a lot of fads that were popular in 1982. Are they all just waiting to be revived on a mass-market?

Or is it just that there are handful of geeks on the internet who hate the current RPG industry and dream of a return to a yesteryear?

Quote from: Piestrio;320875It'll look less like somehting we want and more like this:

(Image cut for size)

Isn't that that woefully incomplete game that promised catching 151 pokemon, but only contained 26? That one that didn't sell well enough to justify the next expansion, so was never finished?

Quote from: Piestrio;320875I've just reconciled myself to the fact that a REALLY popular mainstream rpg will be sufficiently different from what I like that it's kinda silly to hope for.

Exactly. Some folks around here need to grow up and recognize that:

A) 1982 is over and it's never coming back.

B) Their own tastes are no longer mainstream, and they probably never will be again.

I mean, fuck, isn't it sad that a bunch of 30 and 40 something guys dream of a game that millions of 13-year-olds will love, and that it will be something they will love too? I don't expect to like the same movies, games, music, etc. that adolescents do. It's frankly pathetic that some adults around here do.

Quote from: The Worid;320902Isn't that that woefully incomplete game that promised catching 151 pokemon, but only contained 26? That one that didn't sell well enough to justify the next expansion, so was never finished?

It's the game released at the end of of the pokemon fad and ran into licensing issues that prevented the other expansions.

IFAICT the license was the hold up, not poor sales.

Quote from: The Worid;320902Isn't that that woefully incomplete game that promised catching 151 pokemon, but only contained 26? That one that didn't sell well enough to justify the next expansion, so was never finished?

That's not the point. The point is that the next roleplaying game that succeeds in bringing in lots of new gamers, if there is ever one, is not likely to look like something a hardcore roleplayer would like.

Just look at how Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is obviously trying to open up roleplaying a little.

Quote from: Spinachcat;320860I am surprised they limited the basic set to 3 players + GM.  

That's not what the marketing blurb says.

This Core set is best suited for a group of four players – one Game Master and three Player Characters.

Maybe that means the core set is limited to four players, maybe it just means some players will have to share cards and dice if there are more than four players.

(Edit: This reads a bit more dickish than I wanted. I just mean that it isn't clear and we probably won't have a better idea until we have more information.)

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320938Just look at how Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is obviously trying to open up roleplaying a little.

That's what makes him so adorable, in a ridiculous kind of way.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320938That's not the point. The point is that the next roleplaying game that succeeds in bringing in lots of new gamers, if there is ever one, is not likely to look like something a hardcore roleplayer would like.

Just look at how Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is obviously trying to open up roleplaying a little.

The Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is trying to remake WFRP into a boardgame, and that will FAIL to "open up" roleplaying AT ALL.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;320857GW were actually doing very well, even though it would be obvious logic to assume they would be among the first to fall to a recession.

No, it wouldn't be. ECON 101 is that games do WELL during recessions. It would have been a very bad sign for them if they'd done poorly.

QuoteThe WFB starter box is £40 and you don't get anywhere near as much as you WILL need to play the long term.

No, you only get like over 100 minis. Let's face it, while in theory no doubt you're right that the playable hours on even this WFRP will be longer than the playable hours of the WFB starter set, that's not what sells. What sells is the content. No kid is going to say "wow.. I can keep playing this game for ages!", they're going to say "wow.. this game comes with two entire armies of minis! And this other, more expensive one.. doesn't? Well, that sucks arse!"

They're never going to be able to make this product compete with WFB on that front, not unless they cost 20 pounds LESS, rather than more.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;320968The Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is trying to remake WFRP into a boardgame, and that will FAIL to "open up" roleplaying AT ALL.

RPGPundit

To be fair, it appears as though they are including some of the trappings you expect to find in a boardgame - hee, a WFRP pun!

The jury is still out as to whether the mechanics are boardgame like or not.

anyone know what the word from gencon about this is?

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320940That's not what the marketing blurb says.

This Core set is best suited for a group of four players – one Game Master and three Player Characters.

Maybe that means the core set is limited to four players, maybe it just means some players will have to share cards and dice if there are more than four players.

Yeah, reading between the lines, and given some of their recent statements (suggesting that the game is more closely related to early editions than the original announcement implied), I get the impression that the adventurer's pack just has extra cards and stuff. The core game box contains enough cards and dice and bits and pieces so that every player can have one, and - according to the more recent things I heard - the cards and so forth are basically a clever way of summarising stuff from the rulebook so people have to consult it less frequently. (Even the dice, apparently - which I raise an eyebrow at, but then I remember that GW put out vehicle damage dice which were basically just pretty ways of rolling for vehicle damage in Warhammer 40,000 without having to look up the chart, so that might work.)

The acid test would be whether a player can participate simply with rulebook, pen, paper, and normal polyhedrals. If that's possible, then I'm a bit happier.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320969No, it wouldn't be. ECON 101 is that games do WELL during recessions. It would have been a very bad sign for them if they'd done poorly.



No, you only get like over 100 minis. Let's face it, while in theory no doubt you're right that the playable hours on even this WFRP will be longer than the playable hours of the WFB starter set, that's not what sells. What sells is the content. No kid is going to say "wow.. I can keep playing this game for ages!", they're going to say "wow.. this game comes with two entire armies of minis! And this other, more expensive one.. doesn't? Well, that sucks arse!"

They're never going to be able to make this product compete with WFB on that front, not unless they cost 20 pounds LESS, rather than more.

RPGPundit

well obviously it would be a bad sign if they were doing poorly.

But the idea tht this boxed set is less sellable than any other warhammer boxed set is just bollocks. though FFG need to get this in GW shops.

Their big box products sell, so do GW's products and Warhammer is a hideously expensive hobby. So i don't really get this criticism about the price point.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320968The Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is trying to remake WFRP into a boardgame, and that will FAIL to "open up" roleplaying AT ALL.

RPGPundit

Presumably i missed the part where it said there was actually a board within this game, or, if there is, why that should necessarily preclude its players from being able to roleplay. Minis have been a part of roleplaying gaming since day 1.

you just come across as elitist: a swine, if you will.

Quote from: MarionPoliquin;320940Maybe that means the core set is limited to four players, maybe it just means some players will have to share cards and dice if there are more than four players.

I re-read the blurb and I think you may be right.   The only holdup is how important those "character folders" may be to actual play.   Dice can always be passed around the table and cards can always be shared.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320968The Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is trying to remake WFRP into a boardgame, and that will FAIL to "open up" roleplaying AT ALL.

You may be right.   But we won't know jack shit until the game hits the shelves and we see what exactly is going on in the gameplay.  

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;320995anyone know what the word from gencon about this is?

You want to inject facts into a forum discussion?   You madman!

QuoteIt'll look less like somehting we want and more like this:

Ahhh.  I see what your game is now, cheeky little monkey.  You want them to fail horribly and be consigned to the bargain bins in less than a month, so we can all go back to playing real games.

Quote from: J Arcane;321033Ahhh.  I see what your game is now, cheeky little monkey.  You want them to fail horribly and be consigned to the bargain bins in less than a month, so we can all go back to playing real games.

You can find some neat stuff in bargain bins sometimes.  Just sayin'.

My thoughts on the WFRP 3e situation are up on my blog, in my sig.  Don't feel like reiterating myself at the moment; by all means, please go have a looksee if you're interested.

Quote from: Corvus;321035You can find some neat stuff in bargain bins sometimes.  Just sayin'.

My thoughts on the WFRP 3e situation are up on my blog, in my sig.  Don't feel like reiterating myself at the moment; by all means, please go have a looksee if you're interested.

Actually, when I was a young lad, I very nearly bought WFRP1e once from a bargain bin for $15.  It was in a forgotten basket on the floor stuff under a stand full of boardgames.

Quote from: RPGPundit;320968The Pundit is losing his shit over a game that is trying to remake WFRP into a boardgame, and that will FAIL to "open up" roleplaying AT ALL.

RPGPundit

You may be entirely right, you may be partially right, you may be entirely wrong.

But this seems to indicate that you are at least partially full of shit:

One player gets to be the Game Master. The Game Master is responsible for crafting the story, and giving life to the adventure the heroes are about to undertake. Setting up the encounters, adopting the role of the non-player characters (often referred to as NPCs), and acting as the ruling authority for how the rules apply to the game at hand all fall under the Game Master's sway.