There's some great videos of a talk on wfrp here-
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wfrp/3_media/wfrp3seminar.html
I'm still skeptical about this but there are definitely some very interesting things going on with this design. It looks very fiddly though.
One HUGE change from 1E (and one I didn't like in 2E)... "the Empire is on the edge of collapse"...
Which, if history is any indicator, is too late to save the empire. Thanks for snapping the verisimilitude in the first 2 minutes, Jay.
I don't understand your complaint. I always thought the Empire was on the brink anyway; much like the Imperium.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;322696I don't understand your complaint. I always thought the Empire was on the brink anyway; much like the Imperium.
1st end isn't quite there... it's rotting, but not rotten.
2nd ed it's rotten to the core...
Quote from: aramis;3226971st end isn't quite there... it's rotting, but not rotten.
2nd ed it's rotten to the core...
Thats how i always played it. The empire worked, the common people got on with their lives, but there was a taint to things. Of course, this meant that you could ignore the "collapsing empire" theme using canon sources, just by not exposing the party to that.
With 2nd Ed as written, you could not ignore that side of things unless (as i did) you just used 1st Ed setting with 2nd Ed rules.
There's a lot more interesting things to discuss here than some fluff nonsense. How about that dice mechanic? I can't imagine that ever being easy to use. And the track thingy. And the tactic cards. And the group card. This looks like a complete pain to play.
I like the idea of what I see here, for the most part. But I think there is an easier way to go about it rather than include a shit ton of components that make the whole product expensive and cumbersome. Do they really need all those different types of dice; all with unique symbols and all able to interact meaningfully with each different type?
One thing that continuously jumps out at me is that the game is designed to be very difficult to pirate. Everything is printed out on cards or interlocking puzzle pieces and all the dice are custom. Not the kind of thing you could run after purchasing the pdf.
Then again, maybe they are playing to the aesthetics of Fantasy Flight Games' strength - making pretty board games. Sure, they have repeated that this is not a board game (since there is no board) but it certainly has many elements from FFG's board and card games, like the idea of placing effect cards on the player sheet or the party sheet etc.
Also, their business model does seem to be taking a big page out of WotC's strategy of cranking out additional products. The guy on the video kept referring to "expansions" over and over again. I think the intent will be to crank out all kinds of extra stuff like the 'Halfling expansion' and 'Player Careers volume 2' and sell us packs of power cards, career cards, extra dice, extra player sheets and what have you.
All in all it certainly feels like a very odd mix and not like anything we've seen before. I can't see this gaining any traction with the old school grognards but it may have some appeal to newer gamers if they aren't scared off by the price point.
It might be difficult to pirate, but the people who pirate won't be paying $100 anyway so there will be no loss of sales IMO. But there will be pdf's of the rulebooks in the usual places, of that I am convinced.
Quote from: aramis;3226971st end isn't quite there... it's rotting, but not rotten.
2nd ed it's rotten to the core...
I think this is a distinction which is trivially easy for GMs to tweak to suit their preferences. I also think you are oversimplifying things.
I remember that in the earliest Warhammer-based novels and WFRP materials it was interestingly ambiguous precisely how deep the rot went; 2nd edition simply made it explicit that the rot goes very, very deep indeed. Any GM worth their salt can toss the ambiguity back in.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;322728I like the idea of what I see here, for the most part. But I think there is an easier way to go about it rather than include a shit ton of components that make the whole product expensive and cumbersome. Do they really need all those different types of dice; all with unique symbols and all able to interact meaningfully with each different type?
Not to defend them, but it makes sense on a certain level, if they aim to sell their product at toy stores rather than book stores.
Quote from: mhensley;322708There's a lot more interesting things to discuss here than some fluff nonsense. How about that dice mechanic? I can't imagine that ever being easy to use. And the track thingy. And the tactic cards. And the group card. This looks like a complete pain to play.
You have to understand Fantasy Flight's design approach. They'll never have just three decks of cards in a game if they can have four decks.
They know from experience that their customers love pieces, tracks, markers, decks, chits, card displays, and lengthy set-up times. I expect WFRP 3E will be lavish. I don't expect it to be elegant. That's just not the way Fantasy Flight rolls.
Quote from: Haffrung;322751They know from experience that their customers love pieces, tracks, markers, decks, chits, card displays, and lengthy set-up times. I expect WFRP 3E will be lavish. I don't expect it to be elegant. That's just not the way Fantasy Flight rolls.
The problem I have is that all that extra shit tends to get
LOST over time.
You don't need to constantly reference a rulebook if you have a well designed system, good character sheet, and a decent GM screen. Most RPG companys have figured this out.
FFG seems to be taking a step back in RPG design and presentation. There's a happy medium that most RPGs try to hit between skirmish game and story game. If you swing too much one way or the other, you start to miss the mark.
Quote from: Warthur;322740I think this is a distinction which is trivially easy for GMs to tweak to suit their preferences. I also think you are oversimplifying things.
I remember that in the earliest Warhammer-based novels and WFRP materials it was interestingly ambiguous precisely how deep the rot went; 2nd edition simply made it explicit that the rot goes very, very deep indeed. Any GM worth their salt can toss the ambiguity back in.
TEW puts the rot mostly at the top. Illuminatis type stuff.
2nd ed makes it pervasive at all levels.
I like 1e and am not much interested in the new game... I expect they will continue to change the setting to be more in tune with the miniatures game and that holds no appeal for me...
But beyond all that... having all this extra crap in the box turns me right off.
If it was a one off board game that would be one thing... but with RPGs... and anything vaguely connected to GW I get a different reaction.
My assumption is that, in addition to the anti-piracy thing (how big a problem is piracy?) is that it locks the owner into a psychological reliance on future products... anything you'd make for yourself isn't going to look half as nice as any 'official' new cards or dice they bring out.
To me having all the fancy extras in the box is a solid ploy for future marketing that I want to avoid.
This is a product line intended for an audience that strongly prefers to trade money for time, and by that I mean they are willing to spend a lot of money to pay for an official and professionally-produced product that addresses a want on their part. It is meant to be something of a geek status symbol, in the same way that high end cars are, as shown by the premium price tag and presentation. It's Warhammer Quest for a new, emerging adult geek generation that somehow is gainfully employed and not sucked deeply into World of Warcraft.
Quote from: aramis;322796TEW puts the rot mostly at the top. Illuminatis type stuff.
2nd ed makes it pervasive at all levels.
1E only looks that way because you're not paranoid enough.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;322836It is meant to be something of a geek status symbol, in the same way that high end cars are, as shown by the premium price tag and presentation.
Except 99$ isn't a premium price tag. Hasn't been for quite a few years now.
I think it actually takes a stronger GM to make the game feel like everything is rotten to the core yet still make it believable that regular people could still survive in that kind of setting.
I think the easier way out is to tone down the corruption and play closer to 1e style.
This has to have the worst dice mechanic I have ever seen. And I have Rolemaster.
Great googly-moogly - I haven't played WFRP since waaay back, but this looks pretty darned different.
Nice that the Toolkit contains "new Actions" that aren't in the main box. I presume those "Actions" are spells or something...
"I'm sorry, Bill, your halfling can't swim. I don't have that supplement." :)
I'm surprised that there aren't minis in the box. I'd love to see how combat actually works. I'm guessing it will look something like combat in Cutthroat Caverns except slower and less fun.
I was a little surprised by the lack of minis as well, but it looks like the box will be jam-packed already. Perhaps there'll be a coupon or something in there to try to get new WFRPers to check out their local Games Workshop or something.
Quote from: MarionPoliquin;322868Except 99$ isn't a premium price tag. Hasn't been for quite a few years now.
For board games, you'd be right.
For RPG's, core rules tend to run US $40 to $50. Anything over $75 is definitely premium.
There are no minis because the GW agreement with FFG is no minis games. It was spelled out at the beginning because people were excited about a new Warhammer Quest or Blood Bowl or Space Hulk and we were told NO WAY which was a bummer.
Quote from: Spinachcat;323023There are no minis because the GW agreement with FFG is no minis games. It was spelled out at the beginning because people were excited about a new Warhammer Quest or Blood Bowl or Space Hulk and we were told NO WAY which was a bummer.
Not quite true, hence the Minis in Talisman.
Essentially as I understand it GW made a list of games that FFG cannot remake, whish are essentially the Miniature Heavy ones.
Quote from: jadrax;323033Not quite true, hence the Minis in Talisman.
Essentially as I understand it GW made a list of games that FFG cannot remake, whish are essentially the Miniature Heavy ones.
It should also be pointed out that Space Hulk just got a limited rerelease, and Blood Bowl is still available from GW's Specialist Games site - they still sell the miniatures too, and they keep the rules up to date to boot.
Quote from: aramis;323006For board games, you'd be right.
For RPG's, core rules tend to run US $40 to $50. Anything over $75 is definitely premium.
So D&D is premium?
Quote from: Fifth Element;323046So D&D is premium?
I think that's pretty apparent by it being the most expensive role playing game in existence.
Quote from: jadrax;323080I think that's pretty apparent by it being the most expensive role playing game in existence.
Since the highest selling roleplaying game out there also carries one of the highest prices, claiming that WFRP carries a premium price tag is meaningless.
I'd also like to point out that carrying one the highest prices does not in itself make that price high.
I repeat: 99$ is not a high price if what you get for that price seems right. It. just. isn't.
I think you're reading too much into it. Premium priced and over priced are not necessarily the same thing.
Quote from: aramis;323006For board games, you'd be right.
For RPG's, core rules tend to run US $40 to $50. Anything over $75 is definitely premium.
For board games, he isn't right. $99 is MORE expensive than FFG's biggest, fanciest games, like Starcraft or WoW or Descent, and those are still above the watermark for the average upscale yuppie boardgame like Settlers, and far in excess of more massmarket games like Monopoly or even Heroscape.
For RPGs, the only thing that has ever come close is D&D, and then only if you take the sum of the three cores in total as a single purchase (and if you're a smart buyer, you can often find package deals to reduce that $90 tag for the full set). And really, only the DM ever has to make that big of a purchase.
The only thing this has going for it from a cost-benefit perspective to the consumer, is that it looks to be the complete package, everything everyone in the group needs to play. But you could say the same thing about a $30-40 corebook and a cheap set of dice.
You are correct sir. I got my 4e core books in a set for us $60.
Did anyone here pay full price, really?
The savings argument is meaningless since there is no reason why you won't be able to get similar deals for WFRP.
Get it through your thick skulls, people. My point isn't that WFRP isn't among the highest priced RPGs out there. My point is that 99$ isn't a high price for what you get. For fuck's sake, back in the 90's the french edition of Vampire the Masquerade was 75$ and people bought it nonetheless.
You people are stuck in another time, like that old dude that used to tip me 10 cents for carrying his groceries and thought that was generous.
Quote from: MarionPoliquin;323137The savings argument is meaningless since there is no reason why you won't be able to get similar deals for WFRP.
Get it through your thick skulls, people. My point isn't that WFRP isn't among the highest priced RPGs out there. My point is that 99$ isn't a high price for what you get. For fuck's sake, back in the 90's the french edition of Vampire the Masquerade was 75$ and people bought it nonetheless.
You people are stuck in another time, like that old dude that used to tip me 10 cents for carrying his groceries and thought that was generous.
Games, on the shelf, right now, in stores across the country, are "from another time"?
Oh brother. I suppose we're going to go through all the old salts all over again with WFRP3e that we did with 4e? You're going to tell us all how out of ouch we are, how we need to get with the future, how not liking it makes us all irrelevant grognards even if we were the very people who made the previous edition what it was, and on and on.
Futurism is boring. And usually leaves it's proponents discredited and irrelevant far more often than it's opponents.
Quote from: J Arcane;323141Games, on the shelf, right now, in stores across the country, are "from another time"?
Not what I said. I'm beginning to suspect you have a hard time ordering food at restaurants where there aren't pictures on the menu.
QuoteOh brother. I suppose we're going to go through all the old salts all over again with WFRP3e that we did with 4e? You're going to tell us all how out of ouch we are, how we need to get with the future, how not liking it makes us all irrelevant grognards even if we were the very people who made the previous edition what it was, and on and on.
Futurism is boring. And usually leaves it's proponents discredited and irrelevant far more often than it's opponents.
Yet you have apparently no problem predicting that I'm going to buy WFRP, love it and become a WFRP evangelist. I'll leave the futurism to you, J, since you seem so good at it. Although I am concerned by your considerable lack of awareness of the present.
QuoteNot what I said. I'm beginning to suspect you have a hard time ordering food at restaurants where there aren't pictures on the menu.
You may not have realized it, with your own deliberate assumptions about my sources and motives, but it's what you said nonetheless.
I'm not looking to any past time to judge the price of the game, I'm looking to the alternatives sitting on the shelves as we speak, and compared to every single one of those, including the most popular one of all, the game is goddamn expensive. $100 is a lot for a roleplaying game, by any modern standard of the present market of not just the game itself, but even to comparable gaming media.
But you didn't stop to think about that, no, you just continue on with your amateurish attempts to descredit and invalidate any negative opinion of the game, as you've so far done in every fucking thread about it.
So yes, that's exactly what you fucking said, you dishonest twat, you're just too fucking dumb and too fucking bought into your own lies to realize it.
Quote from: MarionPoliquin;323137The savings argument is meaningless since there is no reason why you won't be able to get similar deals for WFRP.
Get it through your thick skulls, people. My point isn't that WFRP isn't among the highest priced RPGs out there. My point is that 99$ isn't a high price for what you get. For fuck's sake, back in the 90's the french edition of Vampire the Masquerade was 75$ and people bought it nonetheless.
You people are stuck in another time, like that old dude that used to tip me 10 cents for carrying his groceries and thought that was generous.
Actually, the 1990's was another time. A time of economic prosperity, and copious disposable income- unlike the current day. furthermoe, there weren't 100's of free RPGs available on line in 1990's. Also, France is another country, so your example is not only from another time, but another country- and hemispshere, from the one most of live in.
And, one more thing, fatboy, my skull is as thin as an eggshell.
$100 is a premium price for a TRPG. Players never pay more than $40, and that's for something bought in the store like Spycraft 1st Edition; the savvy guys buy from the deep discounters, if they buy at all since players don't need to buy a damned thing.
TRPGs are a dirt-cheap hobby. Trying to make it into something it's not is a damned stupid idea, and this exemplifies just about all of the damned stupid ideas into a big boxed set. Paper, pencil, dice and a single book or file is all you need; FFG's new Warhammer Quest (because that's what it is) is just trying to say that white is black.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;323188Paper, pencil, dice and a single book or file is all you need; FFG's new Warhammer Quest (because that's what it is) is just trying to say that white is black.
It really does not seem to be a new Warhammer Quest, although I say that as someone who really thinks a new Warhammer Quest would be a bloody good idea.
Quote from: jadrax;323080I think that's pretty apparent by it being the most expensive role playing game in existence.
I don't think you understand what "premium" means in this context, then.
Quote from: Fifth Element;323266I don't think you understand what "premium" means in this context, then.
The contect was set by Bradford C. Walker when he brought up the term "It is meant to be something of a geek status symbol, in the same way that high end cars are, as shown by the premium price tag and presentation."
I think you will find that it is you who is the cock-stroking twat getting off on playing word games. D&D is a fucking expensive system that relies on its its geek-cred to sell.
Thing is, D&D is seeing a lot of sales in the $40-$60 range for a supposedly $90 game.
Now, FFG isn't one of the dealers blocking discount sales (a few BoardGame houses require their distributors to require the retailers to agree not to sell below cover price; a few others require online retailers/distributors to agree all online sales sell at cover). Odds are it will be available for between $70-$90 online.
Still, it's the second largest single chunk pricetag in the RPG marketspace I'm aware of. (Metal Cover Judge Dredd was a couple hundred.) It is more than the premium editions of Buffy and Angel.
We won't know the actual price until the product actually hits the shelves and we see what the online discounters do with it. I imagine that all the online chatter is creating some in-house discussions at FFG.
From what we've seen up to this point, the box feels weak for $100, but $75 with free shipping via Amazon would not be an issue. FFG does a great job with components so I expect the look of the game will impress.
I hope the gameplay does as well.
Quote from: jadrax;323194It really does not seem to be a new Warhammer Quest, although I say that as someone who really thinks a new Warhammer Quest would be a bloody good idea.
Fuck yeah!
And a new Space Hulk (or Star Crusade) too!
QuoteAnd a new Space Hulk (or Star Crusade) too!
Good news everyone! (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod210009a)
Well, semi-good news anyway. It IS GW, and it IS a "specialist game", so of course, it's $100, and limited time only, pre-order now, while supplies last, etc.
Jay was quite lear in the videos that an Hourglass meant it, that while you were Cautious in your actions, it took longer, and as a result, changed things... for example... you reached the window using your sneak skill, but were too long doing so.. and so missed over hearing anything useful...
I would imagine that effect is on the 'Sneak' Action card.... "You suceed, but as a result, you are too late for it to be useful"
Obviously, as an RPG, 'Sneak' might be used in a number of situations, and a generic answer may not be applicable to all situations, and that may be where the GM comes in (as we are familiar) to decide exactly how that time delay affects the game....
I think in order to answer some of these questions, we need to see some example cards, and some basic mechanics. Given that is is a random rol on a die, I would imagine it is NOT like the Delay Action from 2nd Ed... and more a semi detrimental one.... simply saying "it takes longer" is no use when applying to Sneak... Melee Attack... Ranged Attack, etc etc.. as the effects of a dely in any of those, PLUS the context and situation in which the action is being peformed, will vary hugely.
I think that Dagobah Dave posted this to the FFG forums.
It's 'trust the game designer, not the GM,' game design at it's very best. Where did that come from? :cool:
Quote from: jadrax;323271The contect was set by Bradford C. Walker when he brought up the term "It is meant to be something of a geek status symbol, in the same way that high end cars are, as shown by the premium price tag and presentation."
I can't imagine how you equate high-end cars to D&D. D&D is the "standard" in the world of RPGs. It's not a status symbol.
Quote from: jadrax;323271I think you will find that it is you who is the cock-stroking twat getting off on playing word games. D&D is a fucking expensive system that relies on its its geek-cred to sell.
It's not only "premium" items that rely on brand recognition to sell. Premium items rely on their brand recognition
as premium items to sell. I dispute your claim that D&D is considered a "premium" item by its customers. Fuckwad.
Quote from: Fifth Element;323465I can't imagine how you equate high-end cars to D&D. D&D is the "standard" in the world of RPGs. It's not a status symbol.
It's not only "premium" items that rely on brand recognition to sell. Premium items rely on their brand recognition as premium items to sell. I dispute your claim that D&D is considered a "premium" item by its customers. Fuckwad.
There you go again. You cant fucking argue on the facts so you instantly leap to some shit where you say I said what you want me too, and then say its wrong. Your even putting words in double quotes like you are some fucking reject from the 80s.
Stop playing wank-ass games with terminology and a join the actual conversation about D&D/WFRP being expensive.
I think some people are overlooking that $100 is the total outlay required of a whole group. Unless WFRP 3E is all about player system mastery, the players won't need to buy the game.
It's expensive. But not out of line with other big-box Fantasy Flight games that the buyers expect to get a lot of replay value out of. Lots of folks buy $70 boardgames and only play them twice.
Quote from: Haffrung;323469I think some people are overlooking that $100 is the total outlay required of a whole group.
That depends on how limited it is.
In 4e, to play d&d and get the classic D&D experience you would expect, you need both PHB. As half the Iconic Careers and Races have been moved to the second book. WFRP3 seems to have done the same by moving core elements, like the Rat-catcher (voted among the top 3 most iconic careers) and the Halfling to other box-sets.
So you have the problem that the game has a high initial price point to try it, then you have to get special dice each*, then a couple of other boxed sets that may well be expensive.
It is probably overall slightly cheaper than D&D, but WFRP doesn't compete against D&D, it competes against things like Savage Worlds. How much of a barrier to sales that will be is uncertain, there was a vocal minority that despised WFRP2 for being a rip-off, but I think they mainly overlap with people that would not be buying WFRP3 anyway. It's the Impulse buyers that have not heard of WFRP and so are not willing to blow $100 on a whim that I think it will most effect.
*Some groups are willing to share dice, but many are not.
Quote from: Haffrung;323469I think some people are overlooking that $100 is the total outlay required of a whole group. Unless WFRP 3E is all about player system mastery, the players won't need to buy the game.
It's expensive. But not out of line with other big-box Fantasy Flight games that the buyers expect to get a lot of replay value out of. Lots of folks buy $70 boardgames and only play them twice.
that's true of every rpg i've ever played though.
Quote from: jadrax;323468There you go again. You cant fucking argue on the facts so you instantly leap to some shit where you say I said what you want me too, and then say its wrong.
The only fact I see here is:
1. D&D is the market standard for RPGs.
Do you dispute this fact? If not I don't see how you can argue that D&D is a premium item in its market, akin to a high-end car.
Quote from: jadrax;323468Stop playing wank-ass games with terminology and a join the actual conversation about D&D/WFRP being expensive.
Conversations use terminology, fuckwad, so if you're using a term incorrectly you're not helping the conversation.
Quote from: Fifth Element;323475The only fact I see here is:
1. D&D is the market standard for RPGs.
Do you dispute this fact? If not I don't see how you can argue that D&D is a premium item in its market, akin to a high-end car.
Just because something is industry standard does not stop it being the most expensive item on the market. You seem to be in some weird world where RPGs have a lot in common with cars, rather than having fuck all in common with cars.
No-one but you gives a shit about cars, Argue your fucking point.
QuoteConversations use terminology, fuckwad, so if you're using a term incorrectly you're not helping the conversation.
Go back to the original post you tried to redefine and try and work out what the context was. You are not having a conversation, you are masturbating by arguing against points that you dreamt up in the first place.
Quote from: Fifth Element;3234751. D&D is the market standard for RPGs.
Btw, how the fuck is this in any way a fact? D&D is utterly exceptional in practically every way with regards to sales. It could only be standard if every game sold the same number of books as D&D.
Hi kids!
Today were gonna play Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay! Cheers!
I've got some pens and a huge starter box so we got all we need to play. Well, me and 3 others that is, Jimmy you have to share Thomas box... and his skills... and I prefer if you don't talk actually.
Well kids, fist you gonna pull a card and see what race you are... you can be human, dwarf, elf or elf.
What? Halfling? Nooo... I said Elf... or elf. Elves are cool you'll see! Hopefully you'll be able to play Darkelf and Dragon(ogre)born when the next expansion comes out, but for the moment you have to settle with elf or elf... and perhaps human if you're dull. Now pull a card! Ahh... elf.
And now you pull a card for your name! Drizztolas! Sounds cool!
Then we pull a profession! Oh sweet, you're a Warlord (of Morr)! Well, its almost as a warrior but you shout more... and like death... and are a bit more cool...
Well this ain't a board game... but the game comes with the Arkham horror pawns with elves on them. So if you imagine that you stand in a 5x5 room and have you imaginary pawns at the imaginary door! Eh... well not there, a little more to the left. Ah, perfect!
Well Thomas, do you have the actions card for listening at the door? Rulebook? Nah, well keep all the rules by cards nowadays! It makes rulebooks unnecessary! What? Well we got 4 of them in the box, instead of one hardback, but they're primarily a reference text explaining the cards and cool tokens you'll get in the game. Well, get though your playing deck and see if you can find the card for listening at doors. Eh... Birds of Paradise? Oh... must got in the deck by mistake. Sigh... tell me when you're ready.
Ah, there it is! Now you can decide if you listen to the door carefully or if you got an aggressive stance when you listen to the door! What? How? Well I suppose that you roar a bit and look really angry if you're trying to listen to the door in an aggressive stance... but you roll more happy happy shiny blue dice if you do! And you can actually get another happy happy blue dice if we got the group marked as happy happy och the group character sheet! What do the group sheet say? Manic depressive? Bugger... is that Jimmy messing around now again?
Your card says you can roll four happy happy blue dice for you listening attempt. Eh... numbers? No we don't do that, it feels sooo 90:s. The listening dice is a blue d8 with an ear icon on four of the sides. What? Flip a coin?!!! Nah, this is something completely different! What? Roll 4+ on a d6?? Sigh, what do you get this silly ideas from? You don't get an unparalleled story-telling option from ordinary dice mind you! Now roll the happy happy blue dice! Fine, two ear tokens! That means you hear (flip a GM card) aha 1 critter dice orcs in there! The critter dice is a red dice with 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 orcy dots on them! Not an ordinary dice, its a red critter dice mind you!
The orcs are annoyed by your aggressive listening so the break though the imaginary door and attack! ROAAAAR! Now I roll the happy orcy green violence dice! (looking through the dice bag) Bugger... somewhere... blast missed it! Sigh... We have to try to survive this fight with the yellow violence dice instead. OK... the orcs attack you.... well... in some aggressive stance I suppose. And their group morale is set to... pretty pissed. That makes 5 violence dice! (roll roll)
Soo... I can see at least 2 concussion icons, one nutcracker and one insulted ego, so this fight didn't go that well for you. You have to discard one life card from you deck! No, that's a social encounter card.... nope that's the shoplifting card... and that's another freakin Bird of Paradise! You don't got any life cards left?! oh you're dead then I suppose... hehe bugger!
Don't be sad, you can always pull another card to do another character!
Pasted from the FFG forums.
It hurts!
Can you provide a link to where you found that OHT?
RPGPundit
Quote from: jadrax;323480You are not having a conversation, you are masturbating by arguing against points that you dreamt up in the first place.
You might not have made the point I'm arguing against, fuckwad, but that doesn't mean it wasn't made.
Quote from: jadrax;323482Btw, how the fuck is this in any way a fact? D&D is utterly exceptional in practically every way with regards to sales. It could only be standard if every game sold the same number of books as D&D.
You misunderstand what I mean by standard, apparently. It's standard in that it's the market leader. It's by far the most recognizable RPG.
Quote from: One Horse Town;324619Pasted from the FFG forums.
It hurts!
That's clearly not actual play, but I wonder if it's based on the actual rules of the game, or whether it's some guy's cynical impression based on some press releases?
Quote from: Fifth Element;324702That's clearly not actual play, but I wonder if it's based on the actual rules of the game, or whether it's some guy's cynical impression based on some press releases?
Mostly cynical impressions with a touch of hints at the rules.
Quote from: Fifth Element;324699You might not have made the point I'm arguing against, fuckwad, but that doesn't mean it wasn't made.
I know the point was made, but only by you. And for fucks sake learn to insult someone properly rather than coming across like a low rent Bevis and Butthead.
Quote from: Fifth Element;324701You misunderstand what I mean by standard, apparently. It's standard in that it's the market leader. It's by far the most recognizable RPG.
I understand it. It's just a fucking irrelevance like the rest of your post. The one thing its not smart to copy from D&D its its fucking prices until you have copied its sales numbers. Which is why no other RPG does.
Quote from: J Arcane;323147You may not have realized it, with your own deliberate assumptions about my sources and motives, but it's what you said nonetheless.
I'm not looking to any past time to judge the price of the game, I'm looking to the alternatives sitting on the shelves as we speak, and compared to every single one of those, including the most popular one of all, the game is goddamn expensive. $100 is a lot for a roleplaying game, by any modern standard of the present market of not just the game itself, but even to comparable gaming media.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough when I carefully wrote that 100$ will make WFRP one of the most expensive games out there. Then again, maybe you should stick to pretty pictures and leave the wordy things to others.
QuoteBut you didn't stop to think about that, no, you just continue on with your amateurish attempts to descredit and invalidate any negative opinion of the game, as you've so far done in every fucking thread about it.
I have? I remember arguing that the price doesn't seem too high for what you will get and quoting a few lines from FFG's site to straighten-out a few misconceptions. Oh, and having an exchange with RPGPundit about one of his unfortunate misplaced outbursts. I note that even he seems to have mellowed somewhat on the subject since more information has come out from people who've actually played the game.
Other than that, I have nothing to say about the game. I haven't played it and I haven't seen it. As far as I know, it has about as much chance of being the game of the year as it has of being a giant stinking turd. But we won't know until it comes out, won't we? After all, only an imbecile of pantagruelian (sorry, I mean "big") proportions would judge a game without having at least leafed through it. Right?
QuoteSo yes, that's exactly what you fucking said, you dishonest twat, you're just too fucking dumb and too fucking bought into your own lies to realize it.
I recommend the big chain restaurants, they usually have the most pictures on their menus.
Quote from: Aos;323177Actually, the 1990's was another time. A time of economic prosperity, and copious disposable income- unlike the current day. furthermoe, there weren't 100's of free RPGs available on line in 1990's. Also, France is another country, so your example is not only from another time, but another country- and hemispshere, from the one most of live in.
And, one more thing, fatboy, my skull is as thin as an eggshell.
I don't have much to say about the first part of your post.
But if you believe that everyone who speaks French lives in France, then there must be a whole lot of water in that thin skull of yours. My location is right under my name ignoramusboy.
Quote from: Fifth Element;324702That's clearly not actual play, but I wonder if it's based on the actual rules of the game, or whether it's some guy's cynical impression based on some press releases?
Yeah, it's a jokey, satirical poke at what we've seen so far...with a bit of artistic license thrown in.
I'll hunt a link down...
http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=179956 (http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=149&efcid=3&efidt=179956)
Thanks for linking that satire, OneHorseTown. That was fantastic.
Having clicked on your link, I see the same pointless debate on the price entry tag wages on that forum too. For the life of me, I can't see why people find it even interesting to discuss this. It's a lot of money, but that doesn't make it expensive. Personally, I'd be more willing to dish out a hundred dollars if the box was complete - when it plainly isn't. Future actions, core races and career paths being left out; not to mention how you'll be able to buy cards with new "stances" rendering the core box maneuvers obsolete. So I'm going to avoid it. It's like the 4E expansion line which supplies you all the barbarians, bards, gnomes, alchemy, illusion magic, divine domains, ranger's animal companions you never got when you dished out $90 for the core rule set. See, you can buy these bards, divine domains, etc. at a a 29.95 price tag each - "each" meaning one, not two, not three, and certainly not all of these left out core rules bits.
Mechanically, I'm interested how novice GMs will cope with WFRP 3E's dice pool system. I think it's an improvement over the binary "roll a d20 to see if you hit target number", but an improvement that well overshot its mark. Too many symbols and colours, will make it hard for the DM to really (let alone, quickly) translate a die pool result into narration. What's more, while the resolution system is innovative, the components driving it aren't; just imagine D&D and, instead of skill ranks, you get to roll a bonus die to add to your d20 roll correlating to the number of ranks in the skill (so it's a bit like Earthdawn 1E/2E). That's just clunky. And frankly, I'm interested in whether constantly adjusting the colours in one's die pool is even germane to many roleplaying situations. If your scoundrel doesn't manage to offset a trap, you think his player or his party cares if he just had a bad day (two bane die) or couldn't access his skills effectively? Sometimes going binary is just enough for a RPG. And even when it isn't - why should you have dice decide these things? Sometimes (not always) I treasure this type of narrative freedom (was a failure due to bad luck or lack of effort?) as a GM. So I'd wish they had an inbuilt mechanic which allowed the GM to bypass that clunky multicoloured die-rolling if he wishes to do so (or sees fit to do so); because it looks like the game doesn't give the GM that choice. I'll be curious, as well, if there'll be a table with all possible die roll outcomes, translating them roughly into narrative terms.
And finally, while I'm thrilled there's a mechanic to mirror in-party tension, that mechanic is geared to a party-outlook that the players choose on their first session (the one on the presentation was, for instance, "idealistic adventurers"; the presenter also mentioned "diplomatic entourage", and "outcast scoundrels"). That's a good enough idea which works if you got a constant player base. I don't. My campaigns last years, and player attendance varies, with people dropping out and new ones coming in. Basically, your outcast scoundrels could migrate to a diplomatic entourage after all (or vice versa), and I'd be interested to see how the game mirrors such changes, especially when they are gradual. Because if the game isn't flexible in such cases, it'sbasically a narrative straight jacket I'd rather do without.
The beginning kit comes with enough stuff for 3 players + 1 GM. I'm guessing the player packs will be $20-$25.
That includes a rulebooks/setting book for each of them. Basically the Core set is All the GM stuff and combat stuff + 3 player packs. Otherwise, you'll just start writing shit down on paper and index cards and substituting numbered dice for players that don't have player packs.
There's a lot of cool mechanic conceits too. For example, when you're wounded you draw a wounded card (to remind that you're wounded). If you're critically wounded you flip the wound card over and your critical effect is printed on the other side of the card. Beats marking a box and rolling on a table yes?
If you buy an expansion and it contains new careers, just throw them into the careers deck. Beats Looking through countless source books for the job you want to play.
The price isn't too bad when you compare it to other games. For D&D 4e a DM needs to buy the core set for $105. Hopefully his players are nice and also buy the PHB for $35 a piece.
So for 4 players you've spent $210. That's with no battlemat (required for D&D 4e), no dice(also required), no minis(not necessarily required, but something to track monsters and PCs on the battlemat), no power cards, etc.
I think the starter kit will be well worth $100.
QuoteBeats marking a box and rolling on a table yes?
Not really. I like my tables. And checking that box cost me a few cents for the copy and about 2 secs time, so it's not like it's some onerous burden like, say, $100 a box and the excess setup time from all those random fiddly bits.
At this point I'm not seeing anything concrete that will actually make playing the game better. The visual aids are nice and I can see some value in them, but I can make up career cards for the current game (which I actually like for that idea). The wound cards are nice, but again they could be made for the current rules. The new wound mechanics where you can take modified injuries at any point in the battle is a good idea. The stance system - feels really gimmicky to me. But beyond that I haven't seen anything yet system wise that is going to give me $100 worth of new game feel.
It's not even the $100 tag that is keeping me leery of jumping on board it's that from what they've been releasing this game seems very niche play based. Dwarf's from a specific place, Reikland Humans etc... They seem to be narrowing the scope significantly. That itself doesn't diminish what you can do with a story. But it does make the potential for them to run rampant with all these minor expansions and that would drive me nuts.
Quote from: jadrax;324720And for fucks sake learn to insult someone properly rather than coming across like a low rent Bevis and Butthead.
Fuckwad (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/).
I am not anonymous, it's pretty easy to find out who I am, where I live and practically any other detail about me. Please feel free to fail again.
Quote from: jadrax;324720The one thing its not smart to copy from D&D its its fucking prices until you have copied its sales numbers. Which is why no other RPG does.
But that's the opposite of a premium product. Premium product = high price but low sales volume. People are paying a premium to get something beyond a standard product in the market, and relatively few people are willing to do that.
D&D has both a high price and high sales volume, by your argument. So how is D&D a premium RPG again?
Quote from: jadrax;325764I am not anonymous, it's pretty easy to find out who I am, where I live and practically any other detail about me. Please feel free to fail again.
My apologies, I don't generally Google those who insult me on the internet. It's not worth my time.
But if you're not a fuckwad, why are you acting like one? That is:
Me: "Something you disagree with."
You: "You're a cunt."
Quote from: Fifth Element;325765D&D has both a high price and high sales volume, by your argument. So how is D&D a premium RPG again?
Since when as it has high sales? It has very low sales, it just has higher sales than any other RPG.
It is a premium product because as a product, it is high priced and has low numbers published.
And this is still you continuing to pull your pud over terminology rather than making a coherent argument as to why $100 is in any way not expensive for an RPG.
Quote from: Fifth Element;325768Me: "Something you disagree with."
You: "You're a cunt."
No, I think you are a cunt for gong around telling people what you think they do and do not understand.
Quote from: jadrax;325769It is a premium product because as a product, it is high priced and has low numbers published.
Lower numbers than what? D&D is a product sold in the RPG marketplace. Any designation of budget, mass-market, or premium only makes sense in the context of that marketplace.
Ptolus is a premium RPG product. The Rappan Athuk boxed set is a premium RPG product. D&D is not a premium RPG product.
Quote from: Haffrung;325784Lower numbers than what? D&D is a product sold in the RPG marketplace. Any designation of budget, mass-market, or premium only makes sense in the context of that marketplace.
Ptolus is a premium RPG product. The Rappan Athuk boxed set is a premium RPG product. D&D is not a premium RPG product.
I don't think there is really such a thing as a RPG product or RPG Market, they are marketed, manufactured and sold as part of the wider game or book market. Sadly resorting to analogy, its like saying a Phantom is not a premium product because it is the best selling Rolls Royce.
And again, its pretty clear what Bradford C. Walker meant in his post, and quibbling with his terminology in no way invalidates his point.
Quote from: jadrax;325786I
And again, its pretty clear what Bradford C. Walker meant in his post, and quibbling with his terminology in no way invalidates his point.
Quibbling with terminology is all that some people have.