Today I stumbled in my forgotten copy of the "Mage" conversion for GURPS, in a dusty drawer, and I all of sudden rememberd that they *had* converted some WW books for GURPS before things went awry.
This happened during my "I-almost-quit-playing-RPGs" period, so I didn't follow the fracas. I only remember that there was some Jasonbournish (*) exchange between WW and SJ Games, and then the project of converting the other titles stopped.
Well, my curiosity is back. Does anyone know/remembers what actually happened?
(*) Jasonbournish (adj.): an hard to follow controversy that, in form, expression and words resembles an all-out unchoreographed fight seen through incomprehensible shakycam.
This is the first I've heard of any kind of controversy. Something went awry?
I don't have any inside knowledge. I just remember working at a game store when we found out that there wasn't going to be any more SJ conversions. We were selling them like hotcakes and tons of people that didn't play white wolf were getting them.
I remember the guy who ran the shop said that he thought that WW didn't think anyone would buy them, and when they turned out to be so popular they became a direct threat. /shrug
This thread and links off it seem to have the best info you'll get: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=19401
Quote from: Cranewings;447901I remember the guy who ran the shop said that he thought that WW didn't think anyone would buy them, and when they turned out to be so popular they became a direct threat. /shrug
That's basically how I remember it going. Imagine the contempt WW would have had for a "roll-playing not role-playing" system like GURPS. They would have thought SJ was on a fool's errand.
RPGPundit
I suppose it just goes to show how disconnected WW was from gaming, and how right SJG go it.
Quote from: Cranewings;447901I remember the guy who ran the shop said that he thought that WW didn't think anyone would buy them, and when they turned out to be so popular they became a direct threat. /shrug
I heard the same thing at the time. It happened right while I was exiting the industry, so I got only rumors.
It is an old story, but after reading reading the two versions at the link previously given it is worth noticing how SJ is irate but factual, while WW "answer" doesn't explain s*it.
However (for what is worth) I also remember when "Fallout" (the PC RPG) was going to be a direct conversion of GURPS for the PC. When Interplay/Black Isle decided to drop GURPS and create a new system I asked them what happened (at that year's ECTS in London IIRC). All I got (unofficially) from Interplay was that "Working with SJ is like having an ulcer". So between SJ and WW must have been a sort of Clash of Titans :D
I heard this (http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=400) of all things was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Quote from: The Butcher;447971I heard this (http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=400) of all things was the straw that broke the camel's back.
If it is true it was totally worth it ^^
Quote from: The Butcher;447971I heard this (http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=400) of all things was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Pundit will LOVE that - possibly the very first reference ever to the Pretentious Swine that he loathes.
IF thats true - then that means the disagreement was actually because WW didn't want to admit to having no sense of humor and SJG maybe went for the joke too much.
- Ed C.
(I'd love it if this was truly what caused the rift between the two)
Porkavian :teehee:
Quote from: The Butcher;447971I heard this (http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=400) of all things was the straw that broke the camel's back.
That's just... uncanny.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Reckall;447968However (for what is worth) I also remember when "Fallout" (the PC RPG) was going to be a direct conversion of GURPS for the PC. When Interplay/Black Isle decided to drop GURPS and create a new system I asked them what happened (at that year's ECTS in London IIRC). All I got (unofficially) from Interplay was that "Working with SJ is like having an ulcer". So between SJ and WW must have been a sort of Clash of Titans :D
I have heard more people live and online who consider Steve Jackson to be an enormous douchenozzle than I have who like him.
He seems to have a personality inverse from his talent at game designing.
(Ogre is a fucking CLASSIC, and one of the finest wargames ever made.)
Any deal that goes south between SJG and any other company is probably Steve's fault from all known evidence.
Shit, I know people who won't buy anything he makes or has made just out of having 1 con interaction with him.
I guess Big Steve is the anti Jolly Blackburn.
Jolly and the company he works for are GOOD PEOPLE but they generally make things I wouldn't play for free.
Big Steve is apparently a massive dickhead but has made some of gaming's best products.
I am gonna feel SO DIRTY preordering Ogre 6th edition. Not that it will stop me mind you.
Captain Rufus,
.......HOWEVER.......
There was a con in Kentucky in 1997 or so where Steve Jackson was a guest and he was great there - friendly, got along with everybody, did demos of games and generally left a good impression.
It might just all depend on context and which year and which con you meet him at.
On the other hand - "Kromm", Sean Punch - who is the primary line editor for GURPS is a heck of a nice guy in-person.
Still, I beginning to think its a case of White Wolf had no sense of humor and SJ Games did.
- Ed C.
Hell, at one GEN CON I'm pretty sure I got Andrew Hackard to crack a grin - and everybody online seems to diuslike him because he's a moderator.
You know, I had a nice exchange of emails with Steve Jackson on the topic of my doing some writing for GURPS a few years ago and it was very civil and I have nothing bad to say about it.
That I didn't go on to do any writing for GURPS falls lower on the pyramid (heh) though in the end the fault is mine alone. I'm just not interested in writing they type of thing they are interested in publishing.
I would hazard a guess that Steve Jackson is easily frusterated and is short on patience when it comes to creative disagreements. I would be willing to bet that his perfectionism, obession with precision, and sure, ego too make him hard to work with.
But that's why he makes such great games too.
As for White Wolf, I couldn't tell you. They were never of much interest to me.
Steve Jackson was gracious enough to correspond with me when I made conversion notes from GURPS to Active Exploits Diceless. He personally took the time to check the document over. That coupled with him being the ultimate small press/indie publisher and putting out awesome sourcebooks, I have a lot of respect for him.
As for White Wolf, my only real dealings with them was back in the 90s when I ordered a book directly from them (part of some promotion) and they lost the order. Oh yeah, and drivethrurpg...
What you have to remember about game companies is that they are run by gamers.
Next game session, look around the table and try to imagine those people running a company.
Creativity? Definitely.
Organisational skills? Um...
Reliability? Er...
Ability to work well with people they perceive as rivals? Ah...
It's a miracle any game books get published in readable form at all.
I don't really buy that. The people who get to the point of someone like Steve Jackson are not your common gamers.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;448074What you have to remember about game companies is that they are run by gamers.
Next game session, look around the table and try to imagine those people running a company.
Creativity? Definitely.
Organisational skills? Um...
Reliability? Er...
Ability to work well with people they perceive as rivals? Ah...
It's a miracle any game books get published in readable form at all.
Really? I've seen it in two industries, hospitality and fitness. Places can be run really atrociously and still make money. That's because there's a demand for their services, so whoever can best fulfill that demand will make money - even if they're not very well-organised.
Whoever can do it best is not necessarily doing it well. And once they have a certain amount of success, they start hiring other and more competent people to do things for them while they "supervise", spending more time having arguments with other people at their level, etc.
That's what I mean - it can be true of anything. No need to even bring it up in this case.
Think about the other gaming companies that started within a year or so of when Steve Jackson Games started.
How many are still around?
How many would have survived the Secret Service attack/controversy?
...and also started a legal foundation for electronic/internet rights?
Compared to other game companies of a similar age - SJG is doing alright and managing to survive in rough economic times.
This is NOT being a 'fanboy' its just a fact.
- Ed C.
Some of the folks who have mentioned negative experiences with the guy I will have to alert them to this thread. Perhaps they can either share or have their reasoning explained as possibly not what they thought. If I can remember to bring it up with them anyhow.
Quote from: brettmb;448078That's what I mean - it can be true of anything. No need to even bring it up in this case.
That's my point, and it's important to bring it up in this case.
Ordinary companies are run by ordinary people. Which means they do ordinary things, like have spats with others over nothing, and semi-deliberately fuck up deals that could have benefited them both.
Steve Jackson is just a big dumb geek like the rest of us. And so is Wieck. Has anyone here
not ever seen a big dumb geek have an argument with another big dumb geek over nothing, and fuck things up royally?
I had no idea SJG did a VtM spoof!
Mind you I did know Paranoia 5th ed supposidely did a "spoof" that was so bad that it killed the line until Varney revived it declaring that edition and all it's supliments "unproducts"
Quote from: Captain Rufus;448047Any deal that goes south between SJG and any other company is probably Steve's fault from all known evidence.
Anecdotes from random gamers on the Internet about how personal Steve Jackson may or may not be isn't "known evidence."
All things point to both parts being a pain in the ass.
White Wolf, in 1993 being in full-gear thin-skinned artiste mode, and SJG with Steve Jackson being a control freak or whatever.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;448092Ordinary companies are run by ordinary people.
Steve Jackson is just a big dumb geek like the rest of us.
You don't survive in this business for 30 years on dumb luck. I'd wager Steve Jackson is sharp as a tack and has good management and multi-tasking skills, as well as being a PITA perfectionist. I'd offer Erik Mona and Matt Sprange as more recent start-ups who might be geeky gamers but have skillsets and energy that most of us (who remain employees rather than employers) couldn't hope to match.
Quote from: Reckall;447968snip It is an old story, but after reading reading the two versions at the link previously given it is worth noticing how SJ is irate but factual, while WW "answer" doesn't explain s*it. Snip
Interesting to note that WW response is in typical story-game/baby sitting style, whilst GURPS responds in an appropriately crunchy way.
Quote from: Koltar;448079Think about the other gaming companies that started within a year or so of when Steve Jackson Games started.
How many are still around?
How many would have survived the Secret Service attack/controversy?
...and also started a legal foundation for electronic/internet rights?
Compared to other game companies of a similar age - SJG is doing alright and managing to survive in rough economic times.
This is NOT being a 'fanboy' its just a fact.
This is exactly how I feel about the Beastie Boys.
Quote from: two_fishes;448138This is exactly how I feel about the Beastie Boys.
What rhymes with "generic, universal role playing system" anyway?
Steve Jackson seemed pretty mellow, laid-back and low-key to me. Course I wasn't looking to publish through SJG games, and didn't have any kind of licensing deal we were working on.
We just played some RPG games at a small regional convention.
In addition, my experiences have all been positive with running GURPS games at conventions with the MiB crews... They advertise pickup GURPS games, provide prize support and SWAG, even for Independent GM's, and always contribute to the Convention charity fundraisers and prize pools.
An all around first-rate gaming company! Not many of those left.
My only beef with them, is they kept Ogre out-of-print for so long, but things are finally looking up.
Quote from: The_Shadow;448111You don't survive in this business for 30 years on dumb luck. I'd wager Steve Jackson is sharp as a tack and has good management and multi-tasking skills, as well as being a PITA perfectionist.
None of which really contradicts Kyle's point, as I understand it, that even the best of the game publishers are still gamers, and can't be expected to be otherwise.
To be blunt, most of the bitching about Steve Jackson I've heard has been from bitter wankers like SJohn that he fired years ago.
There's one or two guys who have an axe to grind just because SJ wouldn't print some shitty book, or edited out the wrong typo, and they've managed to win enough internet fanboys that the rumors of him being a total cockwit spread unquestioningly about.
SJ himself being largely reclusive in online presence just opens the door for such speculation, and so it propogates from forum to forum on and on.
I've seen very little actual reliable evidence or account that he's anything other than just some guy who happens to run a game studio.
Oddly enough I've found him more accessible and available than the guys who are in charge of Pyramid and GURPS.
Having worked a while as the FAQ maintainer for INWO, and later on having played a game of Lego pirates with him, Steve Jackson seems like a perfectly normal guy.
Of course, for any given person, there's people out there who can't stand them for reasons that don't make sense to me anyway, so it's entirely possible that there's some folks that SJ has had a bad time with, for whatever reason. I know that as much as I try to be a nice guy, there's times when I'm an ass, either intentionally or by mistake. So it goes.