With the release of the B/X stuff, there seems to be a renewed discussion around halflings and if they should have thief skills too because Bilbo was stealthy. But was he really? I admit it's been a while since I read the book, but I don't recall him being stealthy at all until after he got the ring (which would make anyone stealthy). His big attempt at stealth was an utter failure (the trolls). Just because Gandalf said, "No one might notice a hobbit", is that justification that halflings are extra stealthy?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;621336With the release of the B/X stuff, there seems to be a renewed discussion around halflings and if they should have thief skills too because Bilbo was stealthy. But was he really? I admit it's been a while since I read the book, but I don't recall him being stealthy at all until after he got the ring (which would make anyone stealthy). His big attempt at stealth was an utter failure (the trolls). Just because Gandalf said, "No one might notice a hobbit", is that justification that halflings are extra stealthy?
Tolkien specifically states that Hobbits can pass silently without leaving a trace if they need to.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;621336Just because Gandalf said, "No one might notice a hobbit", is that justification that halflings are extra stealthy?
No. However, by virtue of their size and cultural norms, I don't think it's unreasonable to assign them a small bonus to doing 'stealthy' things in certain situations.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;621336Just because Gandalf said, "No one might notice a hobbit", is that justification that halflings are extra stealthy?
Extra stealthy? No. Give them thieves' skills as well? No.
Halflings already have a
Special Ability in Moldvay Basic that codifies their stealthiness. (See page B10). It mostly pertains to "vanish[ing] into woods or underbrush" but also comes into play in dungeons when a Halfling has a chance to find cover (shadows) and remains quiet.
AD&D Halflings can move very silently. I'm sure that later editions of D&D provided some kind of stealthy racial feature for Halflings, but I don't know them well enough to quote them. Suffice to say, no additional rules or advantages are needed to reflect a Halfling's capabilities.
AD&D 1 and 2 gave Halflings bonuses to their percentile Thief/Rogue skills in most categories, if memory serves right they were an optimal thief choice.
I think Sacro makes an interesting observation. I am tempted to re-read the hobbit and LOTR to check for hobbit stealth.
I think whether or not Tolkein intended them to be so stealthy, they have sort of become that way for most gamers.
The hobbits in The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings weren't any more stealthy than the other characters in any discernible way. The major examples of halfling stealth result from the use of magical items; Bilbo and the ring primarily in the Hobbit, and the cloaks from Lothlorien in the Lord of the Rings.
Obviously, with the trolls, when Bilbo attempts to 'burglar' one of them, he fails (though magic was involved to negate his stealth, if I'm remembering correctly - didn't the wallet speak?). While invisible, he did survive in the halls of the Elf King of Mirkwood fairly successfully, but when he met with Smaug, even invisible he was noticed...
In the Lord of the Rings, Frodo and Sam do slip and cause a ruckus outside of the gates of Mordor - the cloak allows them to avoid detection. Later, Faramir has no trouble capturing Sam and Frodo - despite their cloaks - but he doesn't succeed in capturing Gollum. Clearly, Gollum is the 'stealthier'.
When Merry and Pippin are captured by the band of orcs, they're not seen by the Riders of Rohan; but they also had cloaks, and it was dark, and they were focused on combat.
In general, hobbits are small enough that they can hide in places that wouldn't be suitable for a 'normal sized person'. As the parent of a 5-year-old an a 1-1/2-year-old, I know that being small can make someone easier to overlook.
I think all of a hobbit's 'stealth' can be chalked up to their small size. A small creature would be likely to make less noise (being lighter) and more able to hide. It's easier to spot a dog than a cat; a cat than a rat; a rat than a cockroach. Size matters.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;621599I think all of a hobbit's 'stealth' can be chalked up to their small size. A small creature would be likely to make less noise (being lighter) and more able to hide. It's easier to spot a dog than a cat; a cat than a rat; a rat than a cockroach. Size matters.
Also, they are normally barefoot, so they make less noise than dwarves and humans wearing boots. But yeah, I think it's just a minor physical advantage.
Happily, I'm reading
The Hobbit to my children right now, as a bedtime story, and we just finished the fight with the Trolls yesterday night...
Quote from: K Peterson;621363Halflings already have a Special Ability in Moldvay Basic that codifies their stealthiness. (See page B10). It mostly pertains to "vanish[ing] into woods or underbrush" but also comes into play in dungeons when a Halfling has a chance to find cover (shadows) and remains quiet.
And that's almost a direct quote from Tolkien.
But I've always read it mostly as bigger folk, even Dwarves, not paying them much mind.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;621599Obviously, with the trolls, when Bilbo attempts to 'burglar' one of them, he fails (though magic was involved to negate his stealth, if I'm remembering correctly - didn't the wallet speak?).
Good memory!
William the Troll's purse does talk, alerting the Troll's to Bilbo's presence.
Quote from: Novastar;621630William the Troll's purse does talk, alerting the Troll's to Bilbo's presence.
Talks in a Cockney accent, IIRC.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;621636Talks in a Cockney accent, IIRC.
"'e're now 'oo are you?" :)
In The Hobbit, Bilbo is explicitly stealthy. I've got my copy out, and I'm not gonna retype passages, but p.34, when Bilbo sneaks up on the Troll's fire mentions that he's rather good at it.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;621661In The Hobbit, Bilbo is explicitly stealthy. I've got my copy out, and I'm not gonna retype passages, but p.34, when Bilbo sneaks up on the Troll's fire mentions that he's rather good at it.
I know I've pointed this out in other threads regarding works by JRR Tolkien, but the book is also supposed to have been penned by Bilbo and reworked by Frodo - ie, it's not a third-party omniscient narrator. Bilbo thinking he's sneaky compared to dwarves doesn't NECESSARILY mean much. He could be right, but he could also be wrong.
"There is little or no magic about [hobbits], except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like an elephant which they can hear a mile off."
(Besides stating the stealthiness of all hobbits, this quote shows that the book is not narrated by Bilbo or another hobbit. The narrator is the author. Bilbo writes a similar book in the fiction, but this version of the story is told by a human.)
In the part about the trolls:
"But at any rate hobbits can move quietly in the wood, absolutely quietly. They take pride in it, and Bilbo had sniffed more than once at what he called "all this dwarvish racket," as they went along, though I don't suppose you or I would have noticed anything at all on a windy night, not if the whole cavalcade had passed two feet off. As for Bilbo walking primly towards the red light, I don't suppose even a weasel would have stirred a whisker at it. So, naturally, he got right up to the fire - for fire it was - without disturbing anyone."
Again, highlights that the narrator is not a hobbit.
Quote from: jhkim;621709Again, highlights that the narrator is not a hobbit.
Winner winner chicken dinner.
I'm reading The Hobbit to my wife and my 4-month baby girl, too! Well, more like reading it to my wife, anyway. And JRRT definitely goes put of his way to explain that Hobbits are really stealthy people.
I'm doing the same for my kids, but I'm a bit further along. Another few quotes...
"Hobbits are not quite like ordinary people; and after all if their
holes are nice cheery places and properly aired, quite different from the
tunnels of the goblins, still they are more used to tunnelling than we are,
and they do not easily lose their sense of direction underground-not when
their heads have recovered from being bumped. Also they can move very
quietly, and hide easily, and recover wonderfully from falls and bruises,
and they have a fund of wisdom and wise sayings that men have mostly never
heard or have forgotten long ago."
"Having made up his mind he crept along as cleverly as he could. Hobbits are
clever at quietness, especially in woods, as I have already told you; also
Bilbo had slipped on his ring before he started. That is why the spiders
neither saw nor heard him coming."
and one last big one...
"Old Smaug is weary and asleep," he thought. "He can't, see me and he
won't hear me. Cheer up Bilbo!" He had forgotten or had never heard about
dragons' sense of smell.
Quote from: jhkim;621709"There is little or no magic about [hobbits], except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like an elephant which they can hear a mile off." [...]Again, highlights that the narrator is not a hobbit.
That's also the first passage that came to my mind upon reading the OP. Not sure if the source was already given, but it's from the opening pages of the LotR, the introduction 'On Hobbits'.
The later parts of The Hobbit, with Bilbo sneaking into Smaug's lair (and only his odour revealing his presence to the dragon) are hard to assess because... well... by that point the protagonist was equipped with a level 30 ring of invisibility. :p
See, I always got the impression from Tolkien that hobbits were not stealthy by nature, but were often overlooked and ignored due to their stature. They were more or less an 'everyman' of Middle-Earth and easily forgotten.
Quote from: jeff37923;621728See, I always got the impression from Tolkien that hobbits were not stealthy by nature, but were often overlooked and ignored due to their stature. They were more or less an 'everyman' of Middle-Earth and easily forgotten.
That's obviously the literary implication he was trying to make. It doesn't change the emulative function of that in the world.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jhkim;621709"There is little or no magic about [hobbits], except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like an elephant which they can hear a mile off."
(Besides stating the stealthiness of all hobbits, this quote shows that the book is not narrated by Bilbo or another hobbit. The narrator is the author. Bilbo writes a similar book in the fiction, but this version of the story is told by a human.)
In the part about the trolls:
"But at any rate hobbits can move quietly in the wood, absolutely quietly. They take pride in it, and Bilbo had sniffed more than once at what he called "all this dwarvish racket," as they went along, though I don't suppose you or I would have noticed anything at all on a windy night, not if the whole cavalcade had passed two feet off. As for Bilbo walking primly towards the red light, I don't suppose even a weasel would have stirred a whisker at it. So, naturally, he got right up to the fire - for fire it was - without disturbing anyone."
Again, highlights that the narrator is not a hobbit.
Perhaps I should have typed it out. Thanks. :)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;621336With the release of the B/X stuff, there seems to be a renewed discussion around halflings and if they should have thief skills too because Bilbo was stealthy. But was he really? I admit it's been a while since I read the book, but I don't recall him being stealthy at all until after he got the ring (which would make anyone stealthy). His big attempt at stealth was an utter failure (the trolls). Just because Gandalf said, "No one might notice a hobbit", is that justification that halflings are extra stealthy?
Part of it, I think, is that when they called the calss "thief" there was immediate associations with Bilbo's title as "Burgler" in the Hobbit. The introduction of the Thief Class was also the time that quite a bit of influx of Tolkien influences were added to the game. From the other side of it, Tolkien's implication and basis for Hobbits, "Hobs" from English folkore (also called Brownies, hobgoblins etc), were the house spirits of Britain. The assumption si ultimately this is what happened to the hobbits: they became stealthy spirits of hearth and home as magic diappears from the wolrd and Middengard becomes our Earth. Just as the elves eventually became the spirits he wrote of in Smith of Wotton Major.
I prefer lately to think of halflings as vicious little bastards rather than the folksy charm of Tolkien's hobbit.
My favorite quote on the subject comes not from Tolkien but from the parody book "Bored of the Ring" where it say something along the lines of "The hobbits sent a company of sling-wielding snipers to participate in the last great war, but nobody knew which side they were on".
Those are my halflings.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;622721I prefer lately to think of halflings as vicious little bastards rather than the folksy charm of Tolkien's hobbit.
My favorite quote on the subject comes not from Tolkien but from the parody book "Bored of the Ring" where it say something along the lines of "The hobbits sent a company of sling-wielding snipers to participate in the last great war, but nobody knew which side they were on".
Those are my halflings.
RPGPundit
I like the Warhammer Fantasy (1st edition Halflings) which are close to that, being almost a perfect counterpart to Discworld's "Nobby Nobbs"; dirty, grimy little bastards that will steal your food when your not looking.
I never really liked the Tolkien Hobbit until I played Lord of the Rings Online. The Shire in the game is hilarious.
Quote from: RPGPundit;622721I prefer lately to think of halflings as vicious little bastards rather than the folksy charm of Tolkien's hobbit.
My favorite quote on the subject comes not from Tolkien but from the parody book "Bored of the Ring" where it say something along the lines of "The hobbits sent a company of sling-wielding snipers to participate in the last great war, but nobody knew which side they were on".
Those are my halflings.
RPGPundit
In a 3.5 game I ran. The only requirement I had of the players was that they play halflings. Otherwise I cast open the floodgates. I allowed everything and anything. We ended up with a halfling druid with eerie magic powers, a half dragon/half halfling, and a pair of halfling barbarian old timey circus strongmen.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;621650"'e're now 'oo are you?" :)
Troll's purses are mischief, and this one was no exception.
Quote from: RPGPundit;622721I prefer lately to think of halflings as vicious little bastards rather than the folksy charm of Tolkien's hobbit.
My favorite quote on the subject comes not from Tolkien but from the parody book "Bored of the Ring" where it say something along the lines of "The hobbits sent a company of sling-wielding snipers to participate in the last great war, but nobody knew which side they were on".
Those are my halflings.
RPGPundit
Mine too. In my Homebrew Altus Adventum setting, halflings are very similar to Roman legions, using great feats of teamwork and strategy to slice the hell out of any enemy. I believe one of their racial traits was that any ally within 10' gains a +1 to hit due to the tactical leadership of the halfling.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;622802Mine too. In my Homebrew Altus Adventum setting, halflings are very similar to Roman legions, using great feats of teamwork and strategy to slice the hell out of any enemy. I believe one of their racial traits was that any ally within 10' gains a +1 to hit due to the tactical leadership of the halfling.
That's not really related to what I was implying in my quote.. I really don't think of halflings as tactical geniuses...
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;622993That's not really related to what I was implying in my quote.. I really don't think of halflings as tactical geniuses...
RPGPundit
I meant the similarity that they are less rotound stealthy happy go lucky hobbits, and more bloodthirsty killers
Quote from: RPGPundit;622721I prefer lately to think of halflings as vicious little bastards rather than the folksy charm of Tolkien's hobbit.
My favorite quote on the subject comes not from Tolkien but from the parody book "Bored of the Ring" where it say something along the lines of "The hobbits sent a company of sling-wielding snipers to participate in the last great war, but nobody knew which side they were on".
Those are my halflings.
So, Sackville-Bagginses, basically.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;623010I meant the similarity that they are less rotound stealthy happy go lucky hobbits, and more bloodthirsty killers
I wasn't thinking bloodthirsty killers either. Rather, sneaky little bastard opportunists.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Pete Nash;621726they do not easily lose their sense of direction underground-not when
their heads have recovered from being bumped.
So, similar to Dwarven ability in 3e to sense direction underground.
QuoteAlso they can move very
quietly,
Bonus to move silent
Quoteand hide easily,[/I]
Bonus to hide
Quoteand recover wonderfully from falls and bruises,
Recover hit points at a faster rate than normal?
Quoteand they have a fund of wisdom and wise sayings that men have mostly never heard or have forgotten long ago."
Wisdom bonus?
Quote"Having made up his mind he crept along as cleverly as he could. Hobbits are
clever at quietness, especially in woods,
Extra move silent and hide bonus in woods?
I don't know if this has already been posted, but saw this on facebook. Gary Busey sharing his thoughts on Hobbits:
http://io9.com/5975746/gary-busey-explains-hobbits-and-the-results-are-predictably-insane (http://io9.com/5975746/gary-busey-explains-hobbits-and-the-results-are-predictably-insane)
Quote from: Doctor Jest;623016So, Sackville-Bagginses, basically.
I'd say more like Jack Large from that episode of Blackadder.
RPGPundit