Quote from: VarajMy only complaint with the new version is the magic system.  It feels flat and slightly overpowered.

I mean it's flat in the power gamer aspect because you do have a limited number of spells.  But there is plenty of flavor to the spell system, with the risks of casting constantly there, not to mention paranoid peasents always eager for a fresh burning.  They've also increased the number of spells you can learn in Realms of Sorcery.  Plus, there is nothing stopping you from learning rituals.

As for overpowered. Haven't had a wizard live long enough to put that to the test.

Quote from: the ultimate nullifierI have said it before and I will say it again, never cared much for the system, but love the setting.

The world of Warhammer is my favorite fantasy setting, not just in games but other media too. I liked the original system well enough but the second edition is a huge improvement.

Quote from: the ultimate nullifierI have said it before and I will say it again, never cared much for the system, but love the setting.

Ditto

Quote from: Xavier LangIn Warhammer Fantasy, the new version, the basic game system works great.

If you touch magic it goes to downhill fast.
Priests - Priest of war and a priest of healing, priest of death, or nature you have the same skill increases and the same talents.  If you start off as an initiate, the priestly basic career, you will be about 2500-3000exp into the game before you can do magic that is specific to your diety.  Start off as something else and your even farther away.  At a minimum it will be your 2nd advanced career and there is a basic career you will have to go through first I believe.  Up until that moment, you are a mediocre combat with a weak spell effect or 2.

I disagree - entirely.  Mechanically you aren't off but it's never been about how powerful your character is in combat.  Priests have a massive social advantage that no other character can touch.  You are a Priest, people will instinctively make exceptions for you that most other characters can't hope to gain.  You have to look at the big picture and not just issolate out the mechanics.  A priest can walk into town and people will welcome them for the most part.  You also are a man of god and don't have to worry about casting spells in public.  People won't just run in fear and panic.  You also have advantages when trying to interact in the higher circles.  These are all part of  balancing factors that need to be considered.  However if you are just looking at the priest class in terms of numbers then yes they seem weak.

QuoteWizard ...

Again see above.  Wizards are seen first as Witches/Warlocks by most people.  You walk into town and start doing sorcery people are going to call the witch hunters first.  Also you have a simple spell go wrong and curdle all the milk in the area.  Well better hope you have protection from fire available.  Etc...etc...

QuoteBoth - Extremely limited spell selection.  
Damage/effect from spells is set, not flexible.  If you cast the spell as a journey man, its 100% equal to the spell when cast a Wizard Lord.
The spells on the limited list are specific, not general.  They do very narrow things meaning your magic user can be amazing at a few things barring a double roll.
The only exception is healing does 1d10 + magic characteristic, damaging spells are static.

The spell effects generally don't scale to your level but you can cast more powerful spells.  Also since the game in general doesn't escalate to the same levels of insanity that D20 does.  You don't need to have to deal ever increasing ammounts of damage out.   A spell that does a strength 6 hit (you still roll the 1d10 for damage crit's apply) is still a devestating spell to a beginning or an advanced character.  Plus you can do that every round, all day long until your luck eventually runs out.  

Not seeing a problem at all with the balance of Magic in Warhammer.

Quote from: kryystI disagree - entirely.  Mechanically you aren't off but it's never been about how powerful your character is in combat.  Priests have a massive social advantage that no other character can touch.  You are a Priest, people will instinctively make exceptions for you that most other characters can't hope to gain.  You have to look at the big picture and not just issolate out the mechanics.  A priest can walk into town and people will welcome them for the most part.  You also are a man of god and don't have to worry about casting spells in public.  People won't just run in fear and panic.  You also have advantages when trying to interact in the higher circles.  These are all part of  balancing factors that need to be considered.  However if you are just looking at the priest class in terms of numbers then yes they seem weak.

I am looking at the big picture.
I'm not just talking about combat.
The rule book says priests of war are only truely welcome in times of war.
The rule book talks about shrines to Rinald being destroyed whenever they are found by authorities.
If I'm a priest of nature, why can't I hunt, or track, or survive in nature?  The only priest class doesn't allow any of those talents or encourage the attributes that go with them.
Why is the priest of healing and mercy as skilled a combatant as the priest of war?  
Wouldn't the priest, especially socially, be expected to fight his own duel as a priest of Sigmard?  He's not as skilled as many of the basic profession fighter classes even when he is in his advanced profession of priest.
As an NPC, the social advantage works just fine.  As a PC, you are going to be asked to actually do things, your going to encounter people who don't respect your religiousness, who are going to fight you despite or because of your religion.

I think Warhammer did all priests a disservice when they made one and only one priest class.  The religions presented are diverse enough there needs to be reasonable differences for each religion at each of the 4 classes.

QuoteAgain see above.  Wizards are seen first as Witches/Warlocks by most people.  You walk into town and start doing sorcery people are going to call the witch hunters first.  Also you have a simple spell go wrong and curdle all the milk in the area.  Well better hope you have protection from fire available.  Etc...etc...

I didn't have an problems with wizards from that perspective.  I just don't feel like they have enough breadth or things they can do, nor do I like the fact that they don't scale.

QuoteThe spell effects generally don't scale to your level but you can cast more powerful spells.  Also since the game in general doesn't escalate to the same levels of insanity that D20 does.  You don't need to have to deal ever increasing ammounts of damage out.   A spell that does a strength 6 hit (you still roll the 1d10 for damage crit's apply) is still a devestating spell to a beginning or an advanced character.  Plus you can do that every round, all day long until your luck eventually runs out.  

Not seeing a problem at all with the balance of Magic in Warhammer.

A wizard has all of there spells as a Journeyman.  The may not have the magic characteristic to cast every spell on the list yet, but the list is set.  Also, the end level spell is almost invariably and area of effect or better version of a low level spell.  Instead of giving them something new at higher power levels they just scaled a spell up instead of having some form of scaling already in magic.
I've never suggested that spells needs to do more damage than they do, I didn't like that it did the same damage no matter who cast it.  I would prefer the journeyman do less and the Wizard lord do more while the one in between did the amount listed in the book.  

Some of the wizard stuff may have changed with the new magic book that came out, I haven't had a chance to read it.  I hope it improved things, but if you only have the main book its not great.

Kryyst, I've read 5 or 6 novels set in the universe and I'm playing in a campaign currently where we are at about 2800exp.  Most people are heading for there 3rd or 4th career.  I love the feel of the world and the stories I've read/played in it.  The melee/missle combat is done great, its simple, makes sense and easy to understand.  The magic is just lacking in areas.

Quote from: Xavier LangI am looking at the big picture.
I'm not just talking about combat.
The rule book says priests of war are only truely welcome in times of war.
The rule book talks about shrines to Rinald being destroyed whenever they are found by authorities.
If I'm a priest of nature, why can't I hunt, or track, or survive in nature?  The only priest class doesn't allow any of those talents or encourage the attributes that go with them.
Why is the priest of healing and mercy as skilled a combatant as the priest of war?  

Why is it that a priest of nature would be expected to be able to hunt better then or even equal to a trained hunter?  There is nothing stopping them from grabbing a bow and heading into the woods to go and hunt.  But they have spent much of their time pouring over scriptures, learning rituals and attending to temple/shrine needs.  Priests of healing and mercy they are skewed.  But they do offer a few 'or' skills to change to less combat.  Ranald is the god of theives so you take that burden when you choose to be a priest of his.  However in certain circles you still have an advantage.

QuoteWouldn't the priest, especially socially, be expected to fight his own duel as a priest of Sigmard?  He's not as skilled as many of the basic profession fighter classes even when he is in his advanced profession of priest.

They'd be expected to hold their own against common people but they aren't going to go toe to toe against a trained fighter.  But put one up against a rat catcher and they'd clean house.

But then again an initiate is someone who's grown up entered the priest hood and is learning to know all there is to know about what God X means.  They are the ones tending to the temples, holding services and doing generic duties.  If you want a priest of Taal that can hunt start him as a hunter you get all the skills that make him a great hunter spend your first 200xp and enter him in the priest hood.  While I do understand the point you are getting at, the rist is you'd end up with an uber career right off the start.

QuoteAs an NPC, the social advantage works just fine.  As a PC, you are going to be asked to actually do things, your going to encounter people who don't respect your religiousness, who are going to fight you despite or because of your religion.

Probably the reason those pansy priests of Mercy learned how to fight?

QuoteI think Warhammer did all priests a disservice when they made one and only one priest class.  The religions presented are diverse enough there needs to be reasonable differences for each religion at each of the 4 classes.

You could easily solve this by chaining in a few more or skills and talents.  

QuoteI didn't have an problems with wizards from that perspective.  I just don't feel like they have enough breadth or things they can do, nor do I like the fact that they don't scale.

Their breadth of knowledge has been greatly expanded in the Realms of Sorcery book.  They have at least doubled the ammount of spells available to each school.  You now have 3 paths of a given school to choose from.  Then spells that aren't part of your path you can learn them like lesser magic spells by spending XP.

What more do you want to scale?  How much more damage do they really need?  They can be extremely deadly.  Besides as a wizard advances it's not about doing that magic missle type spell with more impact it's about being able to cast it that much easier.  Then moving onto a more powerful spell.  

QuoteSome of the wizard stuff may have changed with the new magic book that came out, I haven't had a chance to read it.  I hope it improved things, but if you only have the main book its not great.

The source book does add more depth.  But the main book works, it's just a question of taste.

Quote from: Xavier LangKryyst, I've read 5 or 6 novels set in the universe and I'm playing in a campaign currently where we are at about 2800exp.  Most people are heading for there 3rd or 4th career.  I love the feel of the world and the stories I've read/played in it.  The melee/missle combat is done great, its simple, makes sense and easy to understand.  The magic is just lacking in areas.

I guess it really depends on your mileage.  We're at around 3200 exp and have finished the Altdorf modules, and the Wizard in our group (Wizard of Heaven), is disgustingly powerful.  This ability to repeatedly throw spells that are hard to resist, with high damage, very easily compared to weapon skills, without defensive rolls, have made him the most powerful character on the block.

And he's not overly limited in what he can do with his magic in comparison to many of the other schools.  He can heal, do a ton of damage, banish demons, and has enough general tricks too that he has more options than all but my Swashbuckler as far as tactics in combat.

If anything, I think a repeatable high damage, hard to block magical combat system was the wrong direction to move.

Quote from: kryystWhy is it that a priest of nature would be expected to be able to hunt better then or even equal to a trained hunter?There is nothing stopping them from grabbing a bow and heading into the woods to go and hunt.  But they have spent much of their time pouring over scriptures, learning rituals and attending to temple/shrine needs.  Priests of healing and mercy they are skewed.  But they do offer a few 'or' skills to change to less combat.  Ranald is the god of theives so you take that burden when you choose to be a priest of his.  However in certain circles you still have an advantage.

Having an advantage based upon profession in certain circles is part of any class.  It isn't the overwhelming social advantage you said all priests have, that was my point.  Rat catchers may have a social advantage with other Rat catchers.  It doesn't make them socially adept.

QuoteThey'd be expected to hold their own against common people but they aren't going to go toe to toe against a trained fighter.  But put one up against a rat catcher and they'd clean house.

A rat catcher has a +10% weapon skill and one attack as a basic career
A Priest or war has a +10% weapon skill and one attack as an advanced career.  The Priest wouldn't clean house.  They would be in an even fight against a weaker opponent.  Even if they worship war, combat, and tactics.

It would also apply if they worship peace and mercy.  I am of the opinion that the priest of war should clean house against the rat catcher and the priest of shallya have trouble or even lose because they have a different advantage somewhere else.  Its the lack of variance that bothers me.

QuoteBut then again an initiate is someone who's grown up entered the priest hood and is learning to know all there is to know about what God X means.  They are the ones tending to the temples, holding services and doing generic duties.  If you want a priest of Taal that can hunt start him as a hunter you get all the skills that make him a great hunter spend your first 200xp and enter him in the priest hood.  While I do understand the point you are getting at, the rist is you'd end up with an uber career right off the start.

I'm not aware of being able to go from basic career of hunter to advanced career of priest.  My understanding of the career paths means you would have to be a hunter, then initiate (After paying 200 to switch basic class) and then move on to priest.  
 

QuoteTheir breadth of knowledge has been greatly expanded in the Realms of Sorcery book.  They have at least doubled the ammount of spells available to each school.  You now have 3 paths of a given school to choose from.  Then spells that aren't part of your path you can learn them like lesser magic spells by spending XP.

I'm glad they improved things over the basic book, that was what I wanted.

QuoteWhat more do you want to scale?  How much more damage do they really need?  They can be extremely deadly.  Besides as a wizard advances it's not about doing that magic missle type spell with more impact it's about being able to cast it that much easier.  Then moving onto a more powerful spell.  

I have yet to ask for more damage.  I want the damage to be more variable, not simply higher.
When casting a spell a journey man wizard and a wizard lord do the same amount of damage with a spell.  The Wizard Lord has more dice to roll, but more dice under the doubles and triples rules are bad.  The system means your WL doesn't want to roll all there dice most of the time, its too dangerous.  I wish the wizard lord (third advanced career in a chain, a powerful class) did more damage than the journeyman wizard with the same spell.  I wouldn't mind if the journey man did less. and the profession in between them did the amount in the book.

The number of spells a wizard has from only the main book is low enough that just being able to cast one or two more spells at a high risk of the curse isn't a reasonable "improvement" for completing 2 more advanced careers.  

The high end spell for our wizard is simply an improved basic spell.  That's not a bad thing, but I would rather see some improved breath not just a bigger badder combat spell.  As you have mentioned, and I agree, wizards are not lacking in the combat arena.

If your totally happy with the system, great.  We are going to have to agree to disagree then.  I get the impression we are both having fun playing Warhammer and that's the important thing.

Hey kryyst, remember the mini campaign thing I posted on NTL?

Will start it next Wednesday

They asked me to pregen some characters for them...

Quote from: Xavier LangHaving an advantage based upon profession in certain circles is part of any class.  It isn't the overwhelming social advantage you said all priests have, that was my point.  Rat catchers may have a social advantage with other Rat catchers.  It doesn't make them socially adept.

We could go at this in circles.  You are right that many classes have social advantages in certain circles.  However if you are trying to get the attention of someone important or be accepted in town.  I'd put my money on an priest over a Rat Catcher.  

QuoteA rat catcher has a +10% weapon skill and one attack as a basic career
A Priest or war has a +10% weapon skill and one attack as an advanced career.  The Priest wouldn't clean house.  They would be in an even fight against a weaker opponent.  Even if they worship war, combat, and tactics.

But the initiate has some better combat talents that the rat catcher doesn't have that will give him the edge.

QuoteIt would also apply if they worship peace and mercy.  I am of the opinion that the priest of war should clean house against the rat catcher and the priest of shallya have trouble or even lose because they have a different advantage somewhere else.  Its the lack of variance that bothers me.

I do understand your point on it.  But I'm just not seeing it as a huge sticking point.  There are or skills and talents to the initiate class that gives you some diversification.  The other thing is that for the most part a Player Priest of any god is not the one stuck in the stuffy church giving sermons.  They are the ones on the front lines running missions for their faith.  Regardless if they are of War or Mercy they will be the ones actively partaking on missions and the fact that they learn to fight makes sense to me.  Some more varration wouldn't help but that's done through spells more then skills/talents.

QuoteI'm not aware of being able to go from basic career of hunter to advanced career of priest.  My understanding of the career paths means you would have to be a hunter, then initiate (After paying 200 to switch basic class) and then move on to priest.  

Sorry for the confussion I meant Priest as in the entire career path, yes you'd have to go hunter>initiate>preist,etc...  But still it holds.  You start out as a hunter in love with nature and then want to server your god so you become an initiate even before finishing your hunting career.  You have all the skills talents as a hunter but you quickly start your journey in your faith rather then progressing as a hunter.
 

QuoteI'm glad they improved things over the basic book, that was what I wanted.[/qoute]  I really suggest picking up the Realms of Sorcery book it's got some areas that are missing but for the content it does provide it's excellent.  Definitely a must have for a Warhammer book (the other one being the Bestiary).

QuoteI have yet to ask for more damage.  I want the damage to be more variable, not simply higher.
When casting a spell a journey man wizard and a wizard lord do the same amount of damage with a spell.  The Wizard Lord has more dice to roll, but more dice under the doubles and triples rules are bad.  The system means your WL doesn't want to roll all there dice most of the time, its too dangerous.  I wish the wizard lord (third advanced career in a chain, a powerful class) did more damage than the journeyman wizard with the same spell.  I wouldn't mind if the journey man did less. and the profession in between them did the amount in the book.

If you are asking for greater varriability the goal is more damage.  The WL doesn't need to roll all his dice at anytime but he has them if he wants to ensure his casting.  Also he adds in his magic stat to the roll so if his magic is 4 and only rolls 2 dice, or 1 die it's still +4.  This fixed +4 makes a big impact on repeatedly and succesfully casting simpler spells.  The different mages are going to be dealing out different effects by the level of spell they are casting and the success rate at which they can cast the.  I just don't see any need to have a D&D style varriablity to the spells.  Warhammer doesn't scale up in the same way.  So making a seperate spell that does 2+d10 then another that does 4+d10 and a finale that does 6+d10 is kinda pointless.  

What I would like is the ability to chain targets.  So while a journeyman may be able to cast a spell that effects one target a WL would be able to cast the same spell but target 3 opponents.  

QuoteThe number of spells a wizard has from only the main book is low enough that just being able to cast one or two more spells at a high risk of the curse isn't a reasonable "improvement" for completing 2 more advanced careers.  

But they do gain more lesser spells also and can cast mid - high level spells more effectively.  Again it's a mater of taste.  The wizards aren't walking utility books like D&D mages, they are more like limited trick wizards from more atypical fantasy settings.  

QuoteThe high end spell for our wizard is simply an improved basic spell.  That's not a bad thing, but I would rather see some improved breath not just a bigger badder combat spell.  As you have mentioned, and I agree, wizards are not lacking in the combat arena.

It does depend on the type of wizard/priest.   But again pick up the Realms of Sorcerry and you can add much more variety to your spell chucker.

QuoteIf your totally happy with the system, great.  We are going to have to agree to disagree then.  I get the impression we are both having fun playing Warhammer and that's the important thing.

Pretty much.  It's really pointless to flog it for much more.  We both understand each others points on it, neither of which are wrong since it's just our opinions.  Fortunately it's fairly easy to add more power to wizards since the system is flexible enough to accomodate simple tweaks.  Which really most of the things you are asking for are simple tweaks.  Increasing varriability of spells is easy.  Increasing the spell access is also easy.  Just let a wizard spend 100 or 200xp on learning a spell not from his school, just like the would learn a lesser magic spell.

Quote from: YigHey kryyst, remember the mini campaign thing I posted on NTL?

Will start it next Wednesday

They asked me to pregen some characters for them...

Yeah I remember about that and congrats on finally getting the chance to run it.  I hope that you have as much fun with the system as the rest of us are.  Even those of us debating the system are doing it out of our love for the game and not because we are finding serious issues with it.

If you are pregenning characters for them I'd suggest you still let them have a little input into the process.  Just allowing them to select their 'or' skills/talents and even little flavor as to what sort of hand weapon can go a long way into helping them feel ownership over a character.  

One other thing you may want to do is create maybe double the characters you need then let them pick from amongst them.  It's not going to take you that much time, hell use that random starting character generator on my site and it's simple as click and print.

I love the new Warhammer FRP but am really waiting on the 40k version.

I just read through this one lastnight and it looks great. I don't agree with most of the complaints people have about it though. I hoep to have a review posted by the end of the week. I also picked up a few other WHF2 books that I will post reviews on.

Quote from: kryystOne other thing you may want to do is create maybe double the characters you need then let them pick from amongst them.  It's not going to take you that much time, hell use that random starting character generator on my site and it's simple as click and print.

Decided to start them at the begening of their second career.

And I aksed them what they wanted to play.

I got dwarf veteran (shieldbreaker), elf journeyman (apprentice), human priest of Sigmar (initiate) and elf scout (kithband).

Course, I'll have to beef up the oposition a bit.

Beside having a better range, is there something else than an elfbow get when compared to a longbow?

I assume that wounds, attacks and magic advances don't stack? I take the best like the % stats?

Quote from: YigI assume that wounds, attacks and magic advances don't stack? I take the best like the % stats?

yes, I believe this is correct.