TheRPGSite

QuoteIn 2009, we debuted the third edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. This new edition changed the way players experience the Warhammer Fantasy setting and brought new life to the Old World.

In the years since its release, we have published a veritable library of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay products, including twenty expansions, several core products, and even a digital application.

Today, we present the final FAQ and Errata, which are available for download on the support page. With these documents, we have fulfilled our vision for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, having delivered a complete game experience.

Although we've reached the end of our road for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, your journey continues. With published campaigns and adventure supplements, such as The Gathering Storm and Lure of Power, along with supplementary material available to help GMs create their own stories, such as the Game Master's Toolkit, we're confident that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay will continue to provide enjoyment for years to come.

A Word from the Developers

With the release of the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Third Edition core set in 2009, Fantasy Flight Games launched an exciting new adventure in the Old World, both for our players and for ourselves. We'd never worked on a project quite like it before, and most of our players had never played anything quite like it, either. The new format brought on interesting design challenges, and talking those challenges was in itself an exciting and rewarding experience.

Our adventure in the Old World has come to a close with the release of this final FAQ update. As you can see, the changes between this and the penultimate version are modest (a few new errata for Hero's Call) and we don't foresee a need to update the document any further. We won't be releasing any new products for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd Edition.

The design team would like to thank the fans for giving us the opportunity to make this game which we love so much an important part of our lives for so long. We hope you continue to enjoy Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and look forward to hearing your stories of playing in the Old World for many years to come.

Thanks for playing and, as always, enjoy the game!

-Jay, Dan, Michael, Tim, and Chris

Thanks!

While this foray into the Old World in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has concluded, we are huge fans of the Warhammer Fantasy world and would not be surprised if we found ourselves someday crafting new adventures in it.

Thank you for your support of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Together, we have crafted countless adventures and forged new paths. We wish you many years of continued enjoyment.

So, what'll happen to the RPG IP? Will FFG sell it around or keep it just in case they have all aces in the hole in regard to their Warhammer - based board games?

Quote from: Rincewind1;779199So, what'll happen to the RPG IP? Will FFG sell it around or keep it just in case they have all aces in the hole in regard to their Warhammer - based board games?

I expect a 4e announcement next year

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;779204I expect a 4e announcement next year

I doubt it. I like 3E, but it didn't gain much traction. And it must have taken a lot of resources away from FFGs booming boardgame segment. FFG have better uses for their money, talent, and time than the tiny non-D&D RPG market.

I'm skeptical that FFG would saturate their RPG lineup with another Warhammer game at this point, especially a fantasy game with a new D&D edition and the OSR in full swing.  I think WFRP4e is several years away, if we ever get it.

Quote from: Haffrung;779211I doubt it. I like 3E, but it didn't gain much traction. And it must have taken a lot of resources away from FFGs lucrative boardgame segment. FFG have better uses for their money, talent, and time than the tiny non-D&D RPG market.

  And even within that market, I imagine Star Wars is considerably more profitable than Warhammer.
 
   A similar problem afflicts those of us who enjoyed TSR/WotC's non-D&D or even non-AD&D/FR properties. Those things are just so big and successful that it's hard to justify resources on other products.

Quote from: Rincewind1;779199So, what'll happen to the RPG IP? Will FFG sell it around or keep it just in case they have all aces in the hole in regard to their Warhammer - based board games?

It will most likely lie about unused unless and until FFG decide it'd be profitable to do a 4E. I don't see Games Workshop feeling any pressing need to split their RPGs between different licensees, and even with the Star Wars RPGs diverting their attention FFG has been able to keep up a substantially more regular release schedule for their 40K lines than for WFRP.

To be honest, I'm deeply unsurprised by this. It's been fairly clear to me from their barren release schedule and the overall reaction that 3E was just not successful enough to merit FFG spending their time on it. More or less every existing WFRP player I knew rejected 3E; it suffered from the D&D 4E syndrome of severing too many ties to the game's history, except the new system was even more distant from precedent than D&D 4E was from late 3.5. The new system was such a root-and-branch change that backwards compatibility was comprehensively wrecked, and there was more than one instance where a subject that was exhaustively covered in a single book in the 2E line was spread over multiple products in the 3E line, so anyone who'd invested in the 2E line (itself exceptionally complete - oh, there's a few gaps here and there, but compared to both 1E and 3E it's a really solid game line) would have to be willing to spend an extraordinary amount of money merely to get the 3E versions of stuff they already have, assuming they were excited enough about the new system to bother in the first place.

I hope that if a 4E happens it goes back to the tradition established in 1E/2E. 3E was essentially a different game that happened to share the same title, and I'm increasingly of the opinion that if you're going to give a game a completely new system, then you need to give it a completely new title, unless you're specifically basing it off a non-gaming IP like Star Wars, because calling checkers "chess 2nd edition" is just a farce despite the commonalities between the games.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that the release doesn't rule out future reprints of material if there's demand for it, but making this sort of announcement is inevitably going to dampen demand to a certain extent as those folk who put a high priority on playing a currently-supported system drift away.

Quote from: Haffrung;779211I doubt it. I like 3E, but it didn't gain much traction. And it must have taken a lot of resources away from FFGs booming boardgame segment. FFG have better uses for their money, talent, and time than the tiny non-D&D RPG market.

Dark Heresy 2E is on the verge of being released, so they're still willing to put out new editions of their non-Star Wars RPGs.

On the other hand, Dark Heresy works off book plus usual RPG dice, rather than book plus cards plus special dice plus other boardgamey components. I can see how they can justify keeping up book-based RPG lines if they have a suitable printing deal, because that doesn't take manufacturing budget away from their boardgame lines in the same way as putting out complex boxed sets might. DH 2E also takes up less vastly space per hundred copies in their warehouse or on game store shelves than the huge-ass WFRP 3E boxes.

(Yes, I know 3E had more normal rulebooks come out later in the line and you could always make conversion charts for the special dice, but making special charts is extra faff that will slow the game down in practice and the conventional rulebooks came out late enough in the line that anyone who wasn't up for buying RPGs in big boxes crammed with boardgamey components had already turned their back on 3E.)

I didn't even know it was still going up to this point. I kinda shut it from my mind.

I expect it to be brought back in line with the 40k rpg system after a couple years of lying fallow.

Really it's the game that should never have been made and it suffered much like D&D 4e did, because it fractured the fan base, it needs to return to its roots.

It's mechanical legacy will live on in the FFG Star Wars game.

Quote from: One Horse Town;779228I didn't even know it was still going up to this point. I kinda shut it from my mind.

This. I thought the line had already died, seeing as I never see any chatter about it.

I have both WHFRP2E & 3E, to tell you the truth, I prefer 3E over 2nd, I like the role-play aspect brought into the game by the dice, I also have the Star Wars FFG version and enjoy the dice conventions in there as well, it gives a good vibe in the game, something different than the usual roll and beat a certain number and that's it in the game.  WHFRP made GMing quite easy as well, IMO,,it put all the rules for the players right in their hands with the cards, no more asking what this feat or that power does, or needing to look up a spell, you had your spell card right there in front of you.  I will miss seeing new stuff for it, too bad, I don't think people gave it a chance, they bashed it before they knew what it could bring to the tabletop for gaming IMO.

It was okay. I had fun playing it at a con, but wouldn't buy it as it wouldn't work at our club due to all the cardboard. I won't miss never playing it again.

The rules were made incredibly visible, stuff like the cards was a great design decision (Put everything a player needs to know, right in front of them!), but it was still no 1e.

Quote from: One Horse Town;779228I didn't even know it was still going up to this point. I kinda shut it from my mind.

They were down to releasing decks of new spell cards as the only product since the Enemy Within adventure.


I am resisting the urge to burn my box set, but it is tempting.

Unlikely thought. But could be that GW upped the licensing fee to a level FFG did not feel like meeting.

Good fucking riddance!

Hopefully someone who understands and gets the 1st Edition will pick it up (one can dream!).

Quote from: One Horse Town;779228I didn't even know it was still going up to this point. I kinda shut it from my mind.

I think we all did.

jg

Quote from: David Johansen;779229I expect it to be brought back in line with the 40k rpg system after a couple years of lying fallow.

Really it's the game that should never have been made and it suffered much like D&D 4e did, because it fractured the fan base, it needs to return to its roots.

I doubt the existing WFRP fanbase was big enough for FFG to bother with. The previous license-holders pretty much went out of business. IMHO, FFG were trying to create a new player-base with 3E. Take a setting that's well-known (even if you hadn't played WFRP), and present it with new mechanics and the kind of bits that FFG fans absolutely love. I like the game a lot. However, it's wasn't easy to get into, mechanically or on the pocket-book. That did more to limit its appeal than the grumbling of a grognard market that couldn't number more than a couple thousand.

Quote from: flyingcircus;779232I have both WHFRP2E & 3E, to tell you the truth, I prefer 3E over 2nd, I like the role-play aspect brought into the game by the dice, I also have the Star Wars FFG version and enjoy the dice conventions in there as well, it gives a good vibe in the game, something different than the usual roll and beat a certain number and that's it in the game.  WHFRP made GMing quite easy as well, IMO,,it put all the rules for the players right in their hands with the cards, no more asking what this feat or that power does, or needing to look up a spell, you had your spell card right there in front of you.  I will miss seeing new stuff for it, too bad, I don't think people gave it a chance, they bashed it before they knew what it could bring to the tabletop for gaming IMO.

Agreed. Any game that has discrete powers that players can pick and choose from should present them in card format. It's far, far easier than handing around a book and writing everything down on lined paper.

And I'd be surprised if even 1/4 of the grognards who hated on WFRP 3E ever played the game.

Quote from: Haffrung;779279Agreed. Any game that has discrete powers that players can pick and choose from should present them in card format. It's far, far easier than handing around a book and writing everything down on lined paper.

   Were spell cards ever published for 1st Edition AD&D? And did anyone try to do them with the d20STL/OGL? Because I know they were done for 2nd Edition and 4th Edition, and GF9 has spell decks for 5E on deck for release.

Quote from: Haffrung;779279I doubt the existing WFRP fanbase was big enough for FFG to bother with. The previous license-holders pretty much went out of business. IMHO, FFG were trying to create a new player-base with 3E. Take a setting that's well-known (even if you hadn't played WFRP), and present it with new mechanics and the kind of bits that FFG fans absolutely love. I like the game a lot. However, it's wasn't easy to get into, mechanically or on the pocket-book. That did more to limit its appeal than the grumbling of a grognard market that couldn't number more than a couple thousand.




Agreed. Any game that has discrete powers that players can pick and choose from should present them in card format. It's far, far easier than handing around a book and writing everything down on lined paper.

And I'd be surprised if even 1/4 of the grognards who hated on WFRP 3E ever played the game.

2008 called, it wants it's 4vengers style arguments back.

Here is the thing that people have to figure out.  RPGs must/need to run on just book, paper & pencil, and normal number dice.  The moment you add in more the more cost you add to yourself and the more investment your asking from the players.  Many players do not want to invest a lot into their gaming in order to learn what your fancy dice and cards do.  That is why Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition failed.  It ask to much and alienated people.

Quote from: Rincewind1;7792932008 called, it wants it's 4vengers style arguments back.

So do you think the existing WFRP market was big enough for a company like FFG to throw big resources at? A company whose boardgames sell in the tens of thousands?

Any RPG besides D&D that's sustained largely by grognards is basically a vanity project. Any RPG publisher that wants to sell more than 2,000 copies of its game targets new customers.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779296Here is the thing that people have to figure out.  RPGs must/need to run on just book, paper & pencil, and normal number dice.  The moment you add in more the more cost you add to yourself and the more investment your asking from the players.  Many players do not want to invest a lot into their gaming in order to learn what your fancy dice and cards do.  That is why Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition failed.  It ask to much and alienated people.

FFG has enjoyed fanstastic growth over the last 15 years catering to a large and growing market of customers who absolutely love all kinds of cards and fancy dice. In that span of time, the tabletop RPG industry has shrunk dramatically. So do you cater to the small and shrinking pen and paper hobbyists who only want books? Or try to bring in some of the customers who buy print run after print run of Descent, A Game of Thrones, and Arkham Horror?

Quote from: Haffrung;779300So do you think the existing WFRP market was big enough for a company like FFG to throw big resources at? A company whose boardgames sell in the tens of thousands?

They don't seem to mind throwing resources at 40k. Of course, nowadays 40k is the more popular one thanks to video games, but that's just the times - I remember still quite the contrary situation.

QuoteAny RPG besides D&D that's sustained largely by grognards is basically a vanity project. Any RPG publisher that wants to sell more than 2,000 copies of its game targets new customers.

Yeah well again - we see how well that turned out for D&D itself, didn't it. If you're going to alienate the old playerbase, you may as well just write a whole new game, because newsflash - the new customers don't appear out of the thin air. If you count your money on popularity of the Warhammer to bring customers, why not actually sell Warhammer?

Of course, FFG was always about the licence for board games, the RPGs were just a splash in that deal.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779296Here is the thing that people have to figure out.  RPGs must/need to run on just book, paper & pencil, and normal number dice.  The moment you add in more the more cost you add to yourself and the more investment your asking from the players.  Many players do not want to invest a lot into their gaming in order to learn what your fancy dice and cards do.  That is why Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition failed.  It ask to much and alienated people.

FFG is doing incredibly well with the Star Wars line, having reprints of a good many books and I think several reprints on some.

The problem with Warhammer Fantasy 3rd was the number of fiddlies and complication.

Star Wars has just the special dice. And while it uses similar dice conventions to WHRP3e, its a whooole lot simpler.

Quote from: Haffrung;779279I doubt the existing WFRP fanbase was big enough for FFG to bother with. The previous license-holders pretty much went out of business.

Green Ronin has gone out of business now? Their huge Gen Con presence seems a bit wasteful then....

Quote from: Rincewind1;779302Yeah well again - we see how well that turned out for D&D itself, didn't it. If you're going to alienate the old playerbase, you may as well just write a whole new game, because newsflash - the new customers don't appear out of the thin air.

New customers appear out of thin air all the time. If they didn't, the RPG industry would be long dead. Just because forums are full of people who have been playing for 15+ years doesn't mean they're representative of the wider market.

The mistake the designers made with both D&D 4E and WFRP 3E was targeting a game at new customers that was so fiddly and complex. The hardcore RPG community, which includes the designers and publishers, had lost all sense of perspective when it comes to complexity. WotC has more or less admitted that's the lesson they learned over the last 10 years - that hardcore RPGers are not representative of the RPG market (or the potential market) at large.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;779304FFG is doing incredibly well with the Star Wars line, having reprints of a good many books and I think several reprints on some.

The problem with Warhammer Fantasy 3rd was the number of fiddlies and complication.

Star Wars has just the special dice. And while it uses similar dice conventions to WHRP3e, its a whooole lot simpler.

So FFG eventually learned the same lesson WotC learned: Want to break out of the RPG ghetto? Then design a game guys who play Arkham Horror or Descent can pick up and learn in a couple hours.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;779304The problem with Warhammer Fantasy 3rd was the number of fiddlies and complication.

Star Wars has just the special dice. And while it uses similar dice conventions to WHRP3e, its a whooole lot simpler.

The production values and creativity in the 3ed products were outstanding--if FFG were to "re-release" 3rd in a similar fashion to how the Star Wars rules work (special dice, rpg books and supplements, no fiddly bits) I'd buy in a heartbeat.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;779304The problem with Warhammer Fantasy 3rd was the number of fiddlies and complication.

Star Wars has just the special dice. And while it uses similar dice conventions to WHRP3e, its a whooole lot simpler.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a WFRP 4e done like Star Wars, with just the dice. Maybe split into three for low end traditional WFRP, to the previous unseen super-heroic stuff.

I liked the game a lot, and followed through the development: I was even one of the playtesters. My players loved it (just as much as we loved the other editions, which we had also played to death).

But yeah, eventually we got overwhelmed with all the bits. I have every single expansion and book (most of which I got at huge discount or even free for being a playtester), and it all takes up a lot of space.

It was easy for me to like it a lot because I didn't have to invest a lot of cash: for regular gamers it must've been a bit much.

Most of the other 3e fans like myself have found ways to streamline it: removing a lot of the bits and simplifying it. Part of my desire for simplicity stemmed from my discovery of the OSR and so the complex nature of the game lost a bit of charm.

I'm a bit sad to see it end, but I haven't played the game in 2-3 years anyway and haven't been involved in the FFG forums at all for about that long.

I'll probably still hold onto everything just because it's all so pretty and I can re-use a lot of the parts for other games (I have enough tokens to last a thousand years).

Quote from: Skywalker;779314I wouldn't be surprised to see a WFRP 4e done like Star Wars, with just the dice. Maybe split into three for low end traditional WFRP, to the previous unseen super-heroic stuff.

I might actually buy it then.

I am looking forward to more FFG boardgames for Warhammer. I would love some Dark Heresy boardgames. More 40k boardgames!!!

Of course, for WFRP fans, there is ZWEIHANDER!!! (hopefully)

If you haven't heard about it...check it out.
http://grimandperilous.com/

I figured this was coming.  I was hoping an announcement like this would take a while longer before appearring, because there are still a few things I'd like to pick up for the game before the line being officially discontinued caused things to shoot up in price.  Luckily, I've got the core almost entirely out of the way, and all I have left are a few adventures which I can honestly do without.

Since FFG got Star Wars, their agreement with GW has meant less and less.  Talisman looks to be wrapping up with the fourth corner board expansion being released soon, and that will effectively "complete" the game.  WHFRP is done, and I doubt with Star Wars doing so well that they'll do a new edition.  The various WH/WH40K card games seem to have dried up in favor of their Star Wars themed equivalents.  Dark Heresy 2e seems more like a last gasp type of thing, but that remains to be seen.

If a bitless but special dice revision of WHFRP appears, it might be with the Descent/Runebound universe, but I doubt that will happen either.

Quote from: Gabriel2;779340The various WH/WH40K card games seem to have dried up in favor of their Star Wars themed equivalents.  Dark Heresy 2e seems more like a last gasp type of thing, but that remains to be seen.

I would agree with everything except Warhammer 40k being neglected. A new card game is being released and Dark Heresy 2e is coming down the pipeline. The profits are with 40k and not Warhammer Fantasy. Which is a damn shame, as I see it WHFRP being much more roleplaying friendly.

I reckon they'd be mad to announce WFRP 4 this year, there's been another big fantasy RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/120902/Far-Away-Land-RPG-Core-Rules?term=far+away+land&filters=100_0_0_0_0) release recently that is basically going to dominate the genre for a while.

And given that Nagash is currently scheduled to return to Warhammer to do something doubtless unpleasant, any game would quickly be out-of-date with the new fluff, and I doubt GW would let anyone announce anything post-Nagash before they announce their Nagash thing properly officially. So, next year, maybe; if the shake-up is as big as has been rumoured, there would be a lot of potential for new material without just republishing the same books again.

Quote from: Skywalker;779314I wouldn't be surprised to see a WFRP 4e done like Star Wars, with just the dice. Maybe split into three for low end traditional WFRP, to the previous unseen super-heroic stuff.

I once heard a rumour of a WFRP character who could tie HIS OWN shoelaces, 73% of the time.

Quote from: Ladybird;779345I reckon they'd be mad to announce WFRP 4 this year, there's been another big fantasy RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/120902/Far-Away-Land-RPG-Core-Rules?term=far+away+land&filters=100_0_0_0_0) release recently that is basically going to dominate the genre for a while.

Haha! Yus :)

Quote from: Ladybird;779345I once heard a rumour of a WFRP character who could tie HIS OWN shoelaces, 73% of the time.

Yeah, it shows even a rubbish GM can destroy an RPG as good WRFP ;)

Quote from: Ladybird;779345I once heard a rumour of a WFRP character who could tie HIS OWN shoelaces, 73% of the time.

That lie was debunked years ago; there is no way a WFRP character will ever be able to afford to wear shoes...

Quote from: Warboss Squee;779318I might actually buy it then.

Well today is yours and the other who were asking for such a release, lucky day.

They did it 2 years ago...

The players guide
http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Players-Guide/dp/1589947401/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1407968104&sr=8-1&keywords=warhammer+fantasy+players+guide

The GMs Guide
http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Masters-Guide/dp/158994724X/ref=pd_sim_t_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=19NF6JFPCT5QR66409G1

The Creatures guide
http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Creature-Guide/dp/1589947045/ref=pd_bxgy_t_text_y

You can get all the expansions in PDF form from DTRPG
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/90381/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Omens-of-War?term=Warhammer+

and then just use paper ignore th fiddly bits and stuff.  Granted some of the expansion information is on cards you wont get,  but the PDFs gets you 85% or so of what you need to play.  

As for third I have been playing it since it came out and we have and continue to have a blast playing.  Talking about starting a second group up as well over skype or G+.  The dice mechanics make for such a deep and fun role play experience, all my players are way deep in character. We have had a dwarf almost go over to khorne just to get the power he wanted to destroy some skaven.  We have a player who started as a gambler and is now building a criminal empire.  The entire party has been pulled into intrigue with the church, witch hunters and the nobility of the empire.  We have had one combat were they were all laid out, several have scars and have had chances to lose limbs, but through good role play and the party working together they saved the limb.  
Its not 1e or 2e,  but its fun. The dice give many opportunities to role play and expand the stories.  The Warhammer mythos are as deep and the corruption, fatigue and stress mechanics are as big a threat as taking a wound.  There are so many ways to wound a character and they even make the choice to take the fatigue or stress cause its what their character would do.  
Its not perfect but, I will play it with my kids in a few years, cause its Warhammer and I not water it down just cause they are 8, we can play numeneria until then.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779296Here is the thing that people have to figure out.  RPGs must/need to run on just book, paper & pencil, and normal number dice.  The moment you add in more the more cost you add to yourself and the more investment your asking from the players.  Many players do not want to invest a lot into their gaming in order to learn what your fancy dice and cards do.  That is why Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition failed.  It ask to much and alienated people.

It alienated people because gamer's are DICK HOLES plain and simple, they are caught up in their never changing world of don't fix or change my game Bullshit that when a new system for doing something comes along that is really innovative and fun, they would rather throw stones at it than try it out.  I say fuck all of em' anyhow.  I don't like most gamer's and they don't like me and I don't give a flying rats ass either.  I've met miniature war game players with more inclination to try a new system than a RPGer, thats why the RPG market is so damn small and getting smaller by the month.  As far as dice, you don't have a damn clue, I have all kinds of dice from the last 30 years of all different styles and sizes for many different games, if we stuck to your logic, then NORMAL would mean the only fuckin' die allowed today by your statement would be the d6!

Seriously how about you guys accept the fact that majority of people didn't like the third edition and thus they didn't buy it.  Bitching at people that like other systems isn't making you look good.  It makes you look like a whiny child that didn't get any ice cream.

Edit:  Wow the guy must had deleted his post.  Still I think my statement still stands.

Quote from: Ladybird;779345I reckon they'd be mad to announce WFRP 4 this year, there's been another big fantasy RPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/120902/Far-Away-Land-RPG-Core-Rules?term=far+away+land&filters=100_0_0_0_0) release recently that is basically going to dominate the genre for a while.

Oh! That DOES look fun!

Quote from: darnest;779356They did it 2 years ago...

No, they didn't. The material was packed together in book form but the result wasn't that great or comprehensive the way the Star Wars RPG is. It ended up as a "poor man's" version of the game. And the approach wasn't expanded on in the supplements.

I could see a market for a WFRP done in the manner of the Star Wars RPGs.

Quote from: Simlasa;779362Oh! That DOES look fun!

I run it for my two daughters and it is indeed fun: http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=756177&postcount=125

Quote from: Warboss Squee;779231This. I thought the line had already died, seeing as I never see any chatter about it.

According to 3E fan forums basically nothing except reprints has come out for the last 2-3 years so I think we could all be forgiven for assuming the thing died long ago.

How did they handle the setting?

I like 2e well enough as far as system goes but the whole "OMG Storm of Chaos!!!!!1!!1!1!!1one" minature game event tie-in felt kind of tacked on. "WFRP 2e, now with Twice The Grimdark!"

Next time I run it I'm taking the hex map from The Enemy Within and populating it with stuff from all over 1e and 2e. Drachenfels, Lichemaster, the works.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779360Seriously how about you guys accept the fact that majority of people didn't like the third edition and thus they didn't buy it.

Who are 'the majority of people?' The majority of existing players? You're probably right, but I'm guessing a majority of people who played 3E had never played WFRP before at all.

This notion that the RPG market is a fixed group of people who have been playing for 15+ years is one of the weirder memes on RPG forums. If that were really the case, commercial publishers the size of WotC and FFG would have dropped out of RPGs long ago to focus on more lucrative sectors of the gaming industry.

Quote from: Spinachcat;779329I am looking forward to more FFG boardgames for Warhammer. I would love some Dark Heresy boardgames. More 40k boardgames!!!

Of course, for WFRP fans, there is ZWEIHANDER!!! (hopefully)

If you haven't heard about it...check it out.
http://grimandperilous.com/

Thanks for the plug!

And yes, ZWEIHANDER is still in the works. We are about two weeks away from releasing the "GRIMDARK Edition" for free, which is theinternal version of the public beta. It's vastly different than the public beta in many ways, and really underpins what's important about Warhammer: controlled brutality and the pathetic aesthetic.

Want to know more about ZWEIHANDER? Read within (http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=8).

Keep an eye on our homepage (http://grimandperilous.com/), or connect with us over at Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/grimandperilous): https://www.facebook.com/grimandperilous


Cheers,
Daniel
daniel@grimandperilous.com

Quote from: The Butcher;779369How did they handle the setting?

It was pretty light in terms of setting as a proportion to the material released. Storm of Chaos was not included (as it was dropped by GW by the time of its released), but it still had Karl Franz riding a Griffin etc

Fuck the Storm of Fucking Chaos.

GW Staffer: "Hey, Ladybird, you play Chaos Warriors! Your army has to join Archaeon's horde. And buy this cannon."
Ladybird (Younger): "Why? He's an idiot. He's going to fail. He's going to overstretch himself and end up cut off in the empire; the horde is strong, but not that strong. Better to stay here and plunder, I reckon, and take advantage of the power vacuum later on." (I played a Khorne and Tzeentch army, can you tell?)
Ladybird: "Also, cannons in a chaos army breaks theme. No ranged weapons, except mages. I don't care if it's a really evil cannon, it's bullshit."
GW Staffer: "Oh. Well, he'll just kill your general, then. Archaeon is so cool!"

...and then he went on to lose, get nutted by an Orc, and the entire thing was retconned out of existence. What a waste of bloody time. I hated the Storm of Chaos.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;779313The production values and creativity in the 3ed products were outstanding--if FFG were to "re-release" 3rd in a similar fashion to how the Star Wars rules work (special dice, rpg books and supplements, no fiddly bits) I'd buy in a heartbeat.

Too bad they weren't capable of drawing a map that's more then a city on a 2x3 card with three items on it.  But since the whole thing was a stillborn mix of Jay Little's fevered forge dreams and FFG's boardgame production team, what more could you ask for then good looking stuff except in the one case where it might actually matter?

Quote from: Ladybird;779383Fuck the Storm of Fucking Chaos.

GW Staffer: "Hey, Ladybird, you play Chaos Warriors! Your army has to join Archaeon's horde. And buy this cannon."
Ladybird (Younger): "Why? He's an idiot. He's going to fail. He's going to overstretch himself and end up cut off in the empire; the horde is strong, but not that strong. Better to stay here and plunder, I reckon, and take advantage of the power vacuum later on." (I played a Khorne and Tzeentch army, can you tell?)
Ladybird: "Also, cannons in a chaos army breaks theme. No ranged weapons, except mages. I don't care if it's a really evil cannon, it's bullshit."
GW Staffer: "Oh. Well, he'll just kill your general, then. Archaeon is so cool!"

...and then he went on to lose, get nutted by an Orc, and the entire thing was retconned out of existence. What a waste of bloody time. I hated the Storm of Chaos.

Yeah, him and Failbaddon.  The Emperor or Guilliman need to wake up and wax his ass already so he stops embarrassing himself every new 40k edition.

Quote from: CRKrueger;779407Too bad they weren't capable of drawing a map that's more then a city on a 2x3 card with three items on it.  But since the whole thing was a stillborn mix of Jay Little's fevered forge dreams and FFG's boardgame production team, what more could you ask for then good looking stuff except in the one case where it might actually matter?

One game designer a year ago I believe stated that the reason FFG likes to reprint or appropriate on the sly other peoples games is because they are REALLY good at glitzing up games to the Nth degree to cover the fact they can barely design a good game anymore.

Really. Every time FFG announces a reprint of some classic we take bets on how many minis they can add into a game that didnt have them, and how many rules they can twerk needlessly to "streamline" and oh yeah, how many bits they can saw off to sell as an "expansion"... etc ad FFGium.

Eh. Such is. Look at how far SJG has fallen from the glory days.

What does SJG even mean?

I think GW believed it was rigged for an absolute chaos win and then were shocked and unprepared when things went otherwise.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779429What does SJG even mean?

Steve Jackson Games.

Quote from: Skywalker;779314I wouldn't be surprised to see a WFRP 4e done like Star Wars, with just the dice. Maybe split into three for low end traditional WFRP, to the previous unseen super-heroic stuff.

That would be cool!

Quote from: Haffrung;779279I doubt the existing WFRP fanbase was big enough for FFG to bother with. The previous license-holders pretty much went out of business. IMHO, FFG were trying to create a new player-base with 3E. Take a setting that's well-known (even if you hadn't played WFRP), and present it with new mechanics and the kind of bits that FFG fans absolutely love.

Yeah, but if it was that easy, why not just get your favorite version of (A)D&D, speak with Cockney accents and add a lot more dysentery?

QuoteAnd I'd be surprised if even 1/4 of the grognards who hated on WFRP 3E ever played the game.

From what little I saw of the older editions I liked the FFG version, but I didn't like the fact that it required the special components (namely dice) to use at all.  The same issue as D&D 4, but more so.

JG

Quote from: Haffrung;779279And I'd be surprised if even 1/4 of the grognards who hated on WFRP 3E ever played the game.

To be fair, killing off a beloved system and replacing it with a completely new and incompatible one is enough of a poke in the eye that I don't blame anyone for saying "Well, fuck you too FFG" and not getting on the 3E train.

Quote from: CRKrueger;779407Too bad they weren't capable of drawing a map that's more then a city on a 2x3 card with three items on it.  But since the whole thing was a stillborn mix of Jay Little's fevered forge dreams and FFG's boardgame production team, what more could you ask for then good looking stuff except in the one case where it might actually matter?

It's funny because it's true!

Quote from: CRKrueger;779408Yeah, him and Failbaddon.  The Emperor or Guilliman need to wake up and wax his ass already so he stops embarrassing himself every new 40k edition.

Yep.

You just can't have colossal "big bads" in a setting that needs to stay constant for IP reasons. Both of the major Chaos leaders have defeated the most powerful demons, have the most powerful artefacts, have the most unstoppable horde... but they can't be allowed to do anything with them. They have to job to the human empire, like chumps, and now they're a spent force.

"Oh, the Imperium will be so much weaker next time!"... well, next time isn't going to be for hundreds of years in setting, and sometime never in the real world. Right now, Chaos is licking it's wounds (With it's seven tongues because lolmutations... and coincidentally, after ten thousand years of failing to do anything to the Imperium, why is Abaddon not chaos spawn yet? The gods do worse to people who have performed better.). And why should we care about the next guy (Who we're never going to see in the game)? He's just going to do the same thing with the same artefacts and the same type of dudes and lose the same way. Meanwhile, out of game, we get the same army list we had before. No "Broken Chaos Horde" list, even for an edition? Oh wait, changing the IP too much, can't do that.

At least with Orcs, the threat is always "there are a lot of them, again" and it's fine if they lose, because they haven't invested much in their invasions, and there are always more Orcs.

Large-scale Chaos works best either insidiously, with cultists (Dawn of War 2 handled this well at a large scale) or as raiding warbands (But then they're just heavy Orcs), but personal-level Chaos is the best Chaos.

It'll be interesting to see how they present Nagash's return, and what they wind up doing to the WHFB setting to de-genericise it.

I loved the dice in 3e, and I similarly love the dice in Star Wars. I like that they are so much more information dense than pure numeric dice yet maintain the low overhead of regular dice.

I hated slotting talents. Fiddly and unnecessarily metagamey. But I did like that the cards put all rules right in front of the players.

I loved the ACE element of enemies. That was a fun way to run NPCs and keep them challenging and unpredictable.

I liked the stance system in theory, but in practice it seemed poorly executed and unnecessarily fiddly.

Overall I liked it, but I found it difficult to get excited about. As others have said, if they were to come out with a version more similar to the Star Wars line, I'd eat that up.

Quote from: Warthur;779485To be fair, killing off a beloved system and replacing it with a completely new and incompatible one is enough of a poke in the eye that I don't blame anyone for saying "Well, fuck you too FFG" and not getting on the 3E train.

Beloved by whom?  I've yet to meet a single WHFRP 1e or 2e player that doesn't readily admit that the mechanics were wonky and whifftastic.  The problem wasn't changing the system, it was changing it to something with so many fiddly bits and new dice.

Quote from: RabidWookie;779535Beloved by whom?  I've yet to meet a single WHFRP 1e or 2e player that doesn't readily admit that the mechanics were wonky and whifftastic.  The problem wasn't changing the system, it was changing it to something with so many fiddly bits and new dice.

2e was only whifftastic if the players were trying to be "Big Damn Heroes" all the time and trying to solo fight everything... Once you start supporting each other you get the gang bonuses and you are no longer whiffing... 2e system wasn't flawed (it might not have been perfect either), it was trying to play it like Dungeons & Dragons (WoTC era) that was...

Quote from: RabidWookie;779535Beloved by whom?  I've yet to meet a single WHFRP 1e or 2e player that doesn't readily admit that the mechanics were wonky and whifftastic.  The problem wasn't changing the system, it was changing it to something with so many fiddly bits and new dice.

Well, for one thing, the folks at Warpstone magazine (perhaps the best WFRP fanzine) point blank refused to support 3E and kept putting out 2E-compatible material instead.

Quote from: Warthur;779485To be fair, killing off a beloved system and replacing it with a completely new and incompatible one is enough of a poke in the eye that I don't blame anyone for saying "Well, fuck you too FFG" and not getting on the 3E train.

"Killed" the system? You mean FFG came into peoples' homes and put the old books to the torch? There wasn't anything left to publish for 2E. Fans can play 2E until they're senile and drooling septuagenarians.

No, it was the usual fanboy butthurt of "someone put out something that didn't suit by preferences and it hurt my feelings real bad!" I'd bet most of the WFRP grognards who pissed and moaned about 3E online don't even play WFRP anymore. It's their memories and preferences and nerd identities that were wounded. There would have been far less wailing and gnashing of teeth if WFRP was still mothballed and nobody had put anything out for it since Black Industries shut down 2E. The reaction to 3E was garden variety nerdfury.

Quote from: RabidWookie;779535Beloved by whom?  I've yet to meet a single WHFRP 1e or 2e player that doesn't readily admit that the mechanics were wonky and whifftastic.  The problem wasn't changing the system, it was changing it to something with so many fiddly bits and new dice.

WFRP players do not necessarily consider those to be bad things.

The WFRP1e rulebook is a bunch of random stuff, all held together by John Blanche and british cynicism. I have never once opened that book and actually found something I have been looking for, but it's always fun to open it and find some new mad rule or concept.

(The time I played WFRP 3e, one player went through three characters. He wasn't playing stupid, just the regular combination of bad luck his side, good luck theirs.)

Quote from: Haffrung;779564There wasn't anything left to publish for 2E.

A claim rather undercut by the fact that Green Ronin wanted to continue with the license.

Quote from: Haffrung;779564"Killed" the system? You mean FFG came into peoples' homes and put the old books to the torch? There wasn't anything left to publish for 2E. Fans can play 2E until they're senile and drooling septuagenarians.

Speaking of people who have lost their marbles, anyone who has been around RPG discussions for as long as you have should be fully aware that "killing the system" is more or less always used as shorthand for "killing active company support for the system" in these conversations and the joke about FFG coming around your house to burn your books was tired-out and ancient when WEG used it in 1980s Paranoia supplements and is even more decrepit today.

As far as there being not much left to publish for 2E, a) as jadrax pointed out Green Ronin didn't agree with you and b) they didn't really produce much that was actually *new* for 3E, they just covered old material and put it in terms of the new system.

Quote from: jadrax;779571A claim rather undercut by the fact that Green Ronin wanted to continue with the license.

Haffrung's just pulling his usual "'cos grognards!" routine with the usual claims that 'most' people follow this or that view/behaviour. ie, claptrap.

Quote from: Warthur;779573Speaking of people who have lost their marbles, anyone who has been around RPG discussions for as long as you have should be fully aware that "killing the system" is more or less always used as shorthand for "killing active company support for the system" in these conversations and the joke about FFG coming around your house to burn your books was tired-out and ancient when WEG used it in 1980s Paranoia supplements and is even more decrepit today

And anyone who has been around RPG discussions for as long as you have knows most gamers don't need any more books for a game once they have 10-15 of them*, and it's not the prospect of no new material that enrages nerds, but the emotional sensitivity of a company 'firing' them as fans by releasing material that doesn't suit their preferences.

* Especially when they're grogs who sneer at published adventures and complain at lazy GMs who don't make up their own content. And then these same grogs melt down when a company stops 'supporting' a favourite game - or worse yet a new company starts supporting a favourite game in a way they don't like.

Quote from: Warthur;779573As far as there being not much left to publish for 2E, a) as jadrax pointed out Green Ronin didn't agree with you and b) they didn't really produce much that was actually *new* for 3E, they just covered old material and put it in terms of the new system.

Which suggest there isn't much else to publish for the WFRP game. What did Green Ronin want to release - a bunch of books on Tilea and Estalia? The last adventure published - A Thousand Thrones - didn't exactly burn up the charts. I'd be shocked it if sold 2,000 copies.

Quote from: One Horse Town;779577Haffrung's just pulling his usual "'cos grognards!" routine with the usual claims that 'most' people follow this or that view/behaviour. ie, claptrap.

Edit: Depends on what you mean by grognard. If you mean someone who has been playing for a long time (I started with Holmes Basic in '79), and who generally prefers old-school approaches to RPGs (look at any thread on lethality or sandbox versus railroad), then I'm a grognard. If you mean someone who reflexively pisses and moans about anything new or innovative, then no, I'm not. I don't have my identity invested in games or game publishers. I don't take anything anyone does on the RPG industry or hobby personally, and I accept that it's okay that my preferences and the output of RPGs publishers often don't align. It's the creeps who talk about being "slapped in the face," "shit on," and companies "killing games" who need to get out and get some fresh air once in a while.

Between Warhammer 3e and D&D 4e it seems like a lot of rpg industry folks looked at the unexpected success of Euro boardgames in the 00's and managed to draw a very wrong conclusion. "If we just boardgamify our rpg's, we can't lose!"

Oops.

On the "new vs older gamers" question, I recently discovered a very good (clean, well lit, well stocked, non-scary staff) FLGS and have started visiting once every few weeks. It's really changed my impression of the hobby's demographics after spending a lot of time reading online forums. Yes, there are indeed younger folks getting into gaming. The median age range of the people I see browsing the rpg section or playing at one of the tables seems to be about 18-25.

Quote from: Haffrung;779584Edit: Depends on what you mean by grognard. If you mean someone who has been playing for a long time (I started with Holmes Basic in '79), and who generally prefers old-school approaches to RPGs (look at any thread on lethality or sandbox versus railroad), then I'm a grognard. If you mean someone who reflexively pisses and moans about anything new or innovative, then no, I'm not. I don't have my identity invested in games or game publishers. I don't take anything anyone does on the RPG industry or hobby personally, and I accept that it's okay that my preferences and the output of RPGs publishers often don't align. It's the creeps who talk about being "slapped in the face," "shit on," and companies "killing games" who need to get out and get some fresh air once in a while.

It's entirely possible to innovate without trying to pass off your fresh, new, innovative system as being any sort of successor to two utterly different systems that happened to have the same title you applied to your bold new experiment.

Quote from: Haffrung;779584I'd be shocked it if sold 2,000 copies.

If it didn't its because it was hard to get hold of due to FFG deciding to hardly print any when they took over. People have it listed at over £50 on amazon.


The list of books that could have been made is long:

This is a game that did not get splat books for its core races for starters.
Then there are the obvious other army book tie ins. Dark Elves, Lustria, Ogres, Orcs. One of the huge tragedies of WFRP is so much of the world is essentially untouched. You only have source books covering half of the equivalent of Europe.

On a semi-related note, who is making money off of the Warhammer novels? I see a healthy amount of shelf space devoted to Warhammer novels and story collections in every big box book store I go into, and have for years. They don't generally stock things that don't sell, so those books must be reasonably popular.

Quote from: Dimitrios;779600On a semi-related note, who is making money off of the Warhammer novels? I see a healthy amount of shelf space devoted to Warhammer novels and story collections in every big box book store I go into, and have for years. They don't generally stock things that don't sell, so those books must be reasonably popular.

Gw's publishing division have been cranking those out for decades. The ones I've read have been decent enough reads, if not exactly the highest of art. Try the Ciaphas Cain ones.

Quote from: Dimitrios;779600On a semi-related note, who is making money off of the Warhammer novels?

Black Library, which is a pretty healthy division of Games Workshop.

Quote from: jadrax;779607Black Library, which is a pretty healthy division of Games Workshop.

Worth noting that prior to the FFG licence, the 40K RPGs and WFRP were handled by Black Industries, which was a subsidiary of Black Library. (Green Ronin were effectively brought in to do WFRP as contractors, whilst Black Industries made Dark Heresy all by themselves before GW yanked the plug and licenced all the RPGs to FFG).

Quote from: Warthur;779608Worth noting that prior to the FFG licence, the 40K RPGs and WFRP were handled by Black Industries, which was a subsidiary of Black Library. (Green Ronin were effectively brought in to do WFRP as contractors, whilst Black Industries made Dark Heresy all by themselves before GW yanked the plug and licenced all the RPGs to FFG).

Yep. After the first print run sold out on pre-orders, the Dark Heresy line was cancelled the weekend before release, due to low sales.

Clearly not enuff sumboyz...

Speaking only for myself of course, but I've played quite a bit of 1e.  Bought the 3e boxed set.  Gorgeous stuff.  

But...


dice were near impossible to get ahold of, and one set isn't nearly enough for an entire table of players (we don't like to hand off dice every time), and personally?  Didn't like all the damn cards and tokens and chits and everything else.  too much crap to deal with.

Again, IMO.  YMMW

Quote from: Warthur;779608Worth noting that prior to the FFG licence, the 40K RPGs and WFRP were handled by Black Industries, which was a subsidiary of Black Library. (Green Ronin were effectively brought in to do WFRP as contractors, whilst Black Industries made Dark Heresy all by themselves before GW yanked the plug and licenced all the RPGs to FFG).

Actually, originally GR were doing Dark Heresy too, i'm pretty sure that Rob Schwalb was involved with Chris Pramas and then suddenly they were saddled with Black Library non-game writers like Kate whatserface, who while a pretty cool person, wasn't a game designer. I think that was the first sign something was up, then everything went tits-up and GR were shelved and Black Industries subsumed into Black Libraries.

Confusing!

I played 3e one session, and it was just too much. I liked some of the ideas, but there was TOO MUCH fiddly going around, and the dice mechanic was interesting, but too complicated.

Really though, the ideas that were great in 3e were turned around and actually made good in their Star Wars line. Cut the cruft, make the dice the only special item needed and make them easily available (they have specialization cards, but really they are just for people who want them, they have no new information and honestly I find them useless), make the dice mechanic simpler, put all the rules in beautiful hardbacks (the WH3e stuff was also beautiful, don't get me wrong, just all box sets with a bazillion fiddlies). Streamline all the crap out of it.

Its obvious that FFG Star Wars is the spiritual successor to WH3e, but its a much better game in my opinion. I think Little learned a lot between the two. It doesn't hurt I suppose that I love the Star Wars universe as well.

One thing that I found interesting about 3e is how the "Perform a Stunt" card, in all of its glory, could really have been used for just about every single dice roll in the game.

Well, possibly, anyway. You could have had that type of action and another one that involved recharge tokens and there you have a big chunk of the mechanics in only 2 action cards.

I expected to hate the dice and the funky bits, but I didn't.  The dice were actually kind of cool, even though the whole "information density" thing was vastly overrated, it was there, if a bit exhausting over time.

What killed it for me...
Abstract range zones
Linked Mooks
Those two those things alone, took standard Old World encounters like Bandits ambushing from different directions, and a beastman band attacking a coach, and made them ridiculously more complicated then if it was just normal range/distance and no mooks/linked encounters.

All the narrative bullshit
Acts, Scenes, etc... no, not just names like other games, but actual dramatic measurements that had mechanical effect like how you could rest.
Focus on combat - powers and cards, with MMOG-style reuse rates and no relation at all to "narrative time" once the combat music stops.  Based on interpretation, a Shallya priestess could either not heal at all out of combat, or could heal infinitely, because the only limit was on the card, which existed only in Combat Time.

Some of the class mechanics though, were really interesting and fun.  As a whole though, the game was laid on a foundation of failed theory.

Quote from: CRKrueger;779667Focus on combat - powers and cards, with MMOG-style reuse rates and no relation at all to "narrative time" once the combat music stops.  Based on interpretation, a Shallya priestess could either not heal at all out of combat, or could heal infinitely, because the only limit was on the card, which existed only in Combat Time.

Have two members of the party draw swords and stare at each other; that'll put you back into combat time, for as long as you want.

Quote from: Ladybird;779673Have two members of the party draw swords and stare at each other; that'll put you back into combat time, for as long as you want.

Still have my 1st ed book from somewhere between 86 and 88. Damn that book is heavy! 364 pages!

Got to meet the Hogshead folk briefly when they first picked it up.

1e is only whifftastic if you're not using tactics. And when you do hit, stuff goes splat pretty fast.

Quote from: Ladybird;779569The WFRP1e rulebook is a bunch of random stuff, all held together by John Blanche and british cynicism.

Thread victory to Ladybird!

Quote from: Ladybird;779569I have never once opened that book and actually found something I have been looking for, but it's always fun to open it and find some new mad rule or concept.

So true! It's crazy how much fun stuff is stacked in those pages. I really like Dark Heresy, but its....too organized? too codified?

Quote from: Ladybird;779611Yep. After the first print run sold out on pre-orders, the Dark Heresy line was cancelled the weekend before release, due to low sales.

Clearly not enuff sumboyz...

That isn't quite my recollection - Black Industries managed to do the first supplement (Inquisitor's Handbook) before they got shitcanned, for starters. But it did get cancelled very suddenly and early for what was by any standards damn strong early sales.

Then again, GW didn't even give it shelf space in their stores so who knows what sales it could have got had they actually chosen to, you know, actually back it to any significant extent beyond letting Black Industries write and print it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779296Here is the thing that people have to figure out.  RPGs must/need to run on just book, paper & pencil, and normal number dice.  The moment you add in more the more cost you add to yourself and the more investment your asking from the players.  Many players do not want to invest a lot into their gaming in order to learn what your fancy dice and cards do.  That is why Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition failed.  It ask to much and alienated people.

Ironically, the original WFRP 1e in 1986 marketed itself as a "bling-heavy" RPG compared to its peers, with glossy pictures of miniatures in the books, boxed sets of dungeon/lair/room floorplans, quality handouts with the adventures etc. I guess the difference is that 1e's "bling" was optional and not integrated into the mechanics - IIRC the dungeon floorplans and RPG-specific minis never sold very well. Oddly, D&D Minis are/were quite popular, meanwhile WFRP fans seem to have a long history of rejecting the bling despite GW  essentially being bling-peddlers themselves.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe;779883Ironically, the original WFRP 1e in 1986 marketed itself as a "bling-heavy" RPG compared to its peers, with glossy pictures of miniatures in the books, boxed sets of dungeon/lair/room floorplans, quality handouts with the adventures etc. I guess the difference is that 1e's "bling" was optional and not integrated into the mechanics - IIRC the dungeon floorplans and RPG-specific minis never sold very well. Oddly, D&D Minis are/were quite popular, meanwhile WFRP fans seem to have a long history of rejecting the bling despite GW  essentially being bling-peddlers themselves.

Nothing wrong with optional things.  It is when you make it mandatory that the problem starts.  Kinda like how some gaming companies force always online even for single player games.  Then those same companies wonder why they did that when their servers crash and customers are piss off.  In other words the more parts you need the more chances you fail.  If the core product is just a book and your imagination, then you got a product that could last you decades.  Maybe even centuries depending on the quality of the book and how well you taken care of it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779888Nothing wrong with optional things.  It is when you make it mandatory that the problem starts.  Kinda like how some gaming companies force always online even for single player games.  Then those same companies wonder why they did that when their servers crash and customers are piss off.

Good point. Even if the physical components enhance a game, making them a requirement might cause some consumers to wonder in the back of their minds if they're being duped.

It is like comparing a hard drive to a solid drive.  Hard drives have moving parts which means it only takes one part to break the whole thing which is why they have a shorter life span.  Solid drives don't have a moving part and thus can last up to a century if you treat them right.

The same principle applies to every thing else.  The more a item needs in terms of "moving parts" the shorter its lifespan is going to be.  The items that don't have "moving parts" tend to last far longer.

That is why Warhammer Fantasy 3rd edition failed.  It had too many moving parts with a rule set that was too clunky.  Not to mention it turned off players that played the previous editions.  A classical DnD 4th edition failure which I wish more companies would pay attention to that.  Just because you want new customers doesn't mean you should piss off, or alienate your old customers.  Only bad things can happen with that.

People bring up Star Wars, but the reason why Star Wars is doing so well is because it reduce the number of moving parts needed.  Seriously if my options are big clumsy game that requires a lot of props, or a medium game that has fancy dice I will always go for option B.  So already we see Fantasy Flight doing exactly what they should had done in the first place.  Not exactly what I want, but at least they are wise enough to reduce the bulk and get straight to business.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779908People bring up Star Wars, but the reason why Star Wars is doing so well is because it reduce the number of moving parts needed.  Seriously if my options are big clumsy game that requires a lot of props, or a medium game that has fancy dice I will always go for option B.  So already we see Fantasy Flight doing exactly what they should had done in the first place.  Not exactly what I want, but at least they are wise enough to reduce the bulk and get straight to business.

Star Wars is doing so well because it's Star Wars.  Warhammer Fantasy, regardless of edition, has never had enough fans to make it anything more than a niche RPG.  FFG could have rereleased WFRP3e with Star Wars sharpee'd over it and it'd have been a bestseller.

While I don't necessarily disagree, RabidWookie, I was tempted by WHFRP 3e several times (and I've got a collection of 1e and 2e books) but shied away due to the fiddly bits.  If they came out with a WHFRP 4e with EotE's system I'd be there day one.

That just makes you a more discriminating WH fan than the Star Wars fans I've seen.

One thing that was really great about 1st ed was that the back of the book had all those examples and maps of common buildings. Road houses, toll bridges, etc.

One thing that minorly bugged me way back was the moments of copycatting D&D. The Troglodyte, Doppleganger and Dragon Turtle come to mind. The Spectre too looks like it was lifted image-wise from D&D.

This is WARHAMMER damnit! Show some originality and play off the weird potential the setting has on its own. yeesh!

I played the first edition. While I never noticed those German Renaissance themes in the game (I was only 15), it always stood out as a more edgier D&D fantasy setting to me. I really liked and still like it's vibe. I find it much cooler than the more generic D&D, which doesn't interest me much. Maybe the game wasn't a succes, because of the more boardgame like features it had? Or it was too expensive?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;780326Maybe the game wasn't a succes, because of the more boardgame like features it had? Or it was too expensive?

The first release was a box for $100, so I imagine that scared some people off.  It did include all the fiddly bits, however.  They later offered the components separately, but the game really did need most of the fiddly bits, which meant that the customer ended up paying north of $100.  At least that is my understanding.  Me, the more boardgame-like features chased me off.  I'm on board for cool dice (SW:EotE, DCC) but WHFRP was too much for me.

Quote from: BigWeather;780332The first release was a box for $100, so I imagine that scared some people off.  It did include all the fiddly bits, however.  They later offered the components separately, but the game really did need most of the fiddly bits, which meant that the customer ended up paying north of $100.  At least that is my understanding.  Me, the more boardgame-like features chased me off.  I'm on board for cool dice (SW:EotE, DCC) but WHFRP was too much for me.

A few things chased me off of 3rd. First off, I was happy with 2e and a new edition wasn't what I was wishing for. The last thing I wanted was a whole new game that didn't sound all that appealing. Then there was was the price. I was also pretty pissed at the time because a couple of 2e books I didn't have the chance to buy yet became really hard to get a hold of at a reasonable price.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;780344I was also pretty pissed at the time because a couple of 2e books I didn't have the chance to buy yet became really hard to get a hold of at a reasonable price.

My god I hate that feeling.  You have my empathy.  Though this is one advantage print on demand has over traditional hard covers.  POD never runs out.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;780344I was also pretty pissed at the time because a couple of 2e books I didn't have the chance to buy yet became really hard to get a hold of at a reasonable price.

That is why I'm budgeting to buy all the FFG star wars books as they release. I made the mistake of not doing that with Star Wars Saga Edition (which I also liked) and some of those had like, 1 print run and done and skyrocketed to hundreds of dollars, even when the game was still live.

It sucks when I want to give a company money and its near impossible.

Quote from: AaronBrown99;779313The production values and creativity in the 3ed products were outstanding--if FFG were to "re-release" 3rd in a similar fashion to how the Star Wars rules work (special dice, rpg books and supplements, no fiddly bits) I'd buy in a heartbeat.

Amen. SW EOTE is a nice easy to run game. Funky dice and all. Once I got over my dice bias.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;780361That is why I'm budgeting to buy all the FFG star wars books as they release. I made the mistake of not doing that with Star Wars Saga Edition (which I also liked) and some of those had like, 1 print run and done and skyrocketed to hundreds of dollars, even when the game was still live.

It sucks when I want to give a company money and its near impossible.

I don't think you need to worry about that with the FFG Star Wars books.  FFG doesn't let their successful games stay out of print.

Quote from: BigWeather;780332The first release was a box for $100, so I imagine that scared some people off.  It did include all the fiddly bits, however.  They later offered the components separately, but the game really did need most of the fiddly bits, which meant that the customer ended up paying north of $100.  At least that is my understanding.

Yeah, the $100 box was pretty woefully incomplete. Very few monsters, no stats for things like horses, No Halflings, Collages of Magic Missing, Cleric Deities missing. It was very clearly going down the D&D 4e Multiple Core Books approach, but charging an awful lot more for them.

Yeah, that's more or less exactly what I was talking about upthread when I was griping about how 3E made you buy more products to cover the same ground that 2E covered.

Quote from: Omega;780202One thing that minorly bugged me way back was the moments of copycatting D&D. The Troglodyte, Doppleganger and Dragon Turtle come to mind. The Spectre too looks like it was lifted image-wise from D&D.

This is WARHAMMER damnit! Show some originality and play off the weird potential the setting has on its own. yeesh!

The setting was still in its infancy back then, so copying D&D in some ways might've helped it gain visibility, and perhaps the authors didn't have enough original ideas of their own. Most of the setting is fairly "kitchen sink fantasy with spiky bitz" anyway. The difference is that Warhammer tends to be more internally consistent than D&D, because GW needs all the army book backgrounds to link together so players of the 16 different armies can justify fighting each other.

Come to think of it, in mechanical terms WFRP2e owes a lot to D&D3e, and WFRP3e owes a lot to D&D4e. So although the Warhammer setting has become more defined over time there's still an element of "D&D but different" in each edition of the RPG.

Quote from: jadrax;780415Yeah, the $100 box was pretty woefully incomplete. Very few monsters, no stats for things like horses, No Halflings, Collages of Magic Missing, Cleric Deities missing. It was very clearly going down the D&D 4e Multiple Core Books approach, but charging an awful lot more for them.

Oh yeah, there was that too.

Reminds e a bit of the current Shadowrun issue. "Buy four books this edition to get everything that was in one book last edition."

I think the reason it was so obvious with Warhammer was the fact that the 2nd ED core was so complete. You literally only needed that, to play for years. The extra stuff was just nice to have, really.

The extra stuff also was quite good at teasing out whole alternate ways to play the game - like the Border Princes supplement where rather than just give a dry rundown of various tiny princedoms they gave you the tools to generate and manage your own.

Played 3E didn't hate it, although I did find all the little tokens and fancy dice a bit annoying.  I wouldn't say it was a bad game.  I would possibly play it again.

I much preferred 1E and 2E though.  3E had too many powers and just ended up producing a game that felt more generic.  It missed that sense of desperation I loved from old Warhammer, where just getting away with your life was an achievement.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;779288Were spell cards ever published for 1st Edition AD&D? And did anyone try to do them with the d20STL/OGL? Because I know they were done for 2nd Edition and 4th Edition, and GF9 has spell decks for 5E on deck for release.

I don't think 1st Edition had any cards. But Green Ronin did spell cards for D20/3.5. At least two publishers have offered them for Pathfinder.

Quote from: Warthur;779485To be fair, killing off a beloved system and replacing it with a completely new and incompatible one is enough of a poke in the eye that I don't blame anyone for saying "Well, fuck you too FFG" and not getting on the 3E train.

OTOH, WFRP was a game that failed multiple times with multiple publishers. I can understand the few existing fans being resistant to the new edition, but it's not like FFG took some huge success story and flushed it.

FFG never sold me on 3E, either. But anyone who thinks they should have just picked up the failed game, crossed their fingers, and tried again with a couple of tweaks is just being unreasonable.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;781098OTOH, WFRP was a game that failed multiple times with multiple publishers. I can understand the few existing fans being resistant to the new edition, but it's not like FFG took some huge success story and flushed it.

All the less reason to call it "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay" and imply continuity with the previous editions, in that case.

And I dispute that 2E failed with Black Industries/Green Ronin. BI was unilaterally killed off by GW who then immediately turned around and relicensed all the properties to FFG. The fact that they bothered to get the licence out suggests to me that there was, in fact, decent money in it - just not decent enough for GW to want to maintain an entire division for publishing it.

Quote from: Warthur;781153And I dispute that 2E failed with Black Industries/Green Ronin. BI was unilaterally killed off by GW who then immediately turned around and relicensed all the properties to FFG. The fact that they bothered to get the licence out suggests to me that there was, in fact, decent money in it - just not decent enough for GW to want to maintain an entire division for publishing it.

Black Industries was also diverting resources from Black Library who publishes the novels, so outsourcing the RPGs to a 3rd party created a clear separation and freed up BL to focus on the novels.

Quote from: Spinachcat;779329I am looking forward to more FFG boardgames for Warhammer. I would love some Dark Heresy boardgames. More 40k boardgames!!!

Of course, for WFRP fans, there is ZWEIHANDER!!! (hopefully)

If you haven't heard about it...check it out.
http://grimandperilous.com/

Despite incorrectly calling itself a WFRP retro-clone (it's a neo-clone), I think Zweihander will be what a lot of the fans were expecting from a WFRP3e - an iteration of the WFRP2e rules incorporating many of the changes that were in the WH40KRPG games.

Quote from: yojimbouk;781305Despite incorrectly calling itself a WFRP retro-clone (it's a neo-clone), I think Zweihander will be what a lot of the fans were expecting from a WFRP3e - an iteration of the WFRP2e rules incorporating many of the changes that were in the WH40KRPG games.

So basicly a Warhammer Fantasy RPG should be like Warhammer 40K? At least ruleswise. I check the Zweihander game btw.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;781309So basicly a Warhammer Fantasy RPG should be like Warhammer 40K? At least ruleswise. I check the Zweihander game btw.

That comment may have sold me off every looking at Zweihander. IMO the 40K RPGs brought almost nothing good to WFRP1e and 2e.

Quote from: Skywalker;781311That comment may have sold me off every looking at Zweihander. IMO the 40K RPGs brought almost nothing good to WFRP1e and 2e.

I lent my copy of Rogue Trader (The RPG) to a colleague recently; said colleague plays 40k, D&D4, is a software engineer who studied geology, etc. Pretty smart guy.

He couldn't understand why the game needed so many rules, and why people would want a game with so many rules. Having ran it, I really couldn't disagree with him.

Quote from: Ladybird;781312He couldn't understand why the game needed so many rules, and why people would want a game with so many rules. Having ran it, I really couldn't disagree with him.

We started to play Rogue Trader after a 6 year WFRP2e game. We have given it up in less than a year. Its the first RPG since D&D 3e where we found the mechanics actually destroyed the fun of playing the game (and we have played Exalted 2e in the interim).

Isn't Warhammer always very rules heavy? I mean I played the first edition and I can remember a lot of dice rolling and a lot of bored players. Usually the ones who weren't rolling. That on of the reasons why I started playing nWoD. That's pretty rules light.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;781338Isn't Warhammer always very rules heavy? I mean I played the first edition and I can remember a lot of dice rolling and a lot of bored players. Usually the ones who weren't rolling. That on of the reasons why I started playing nWoD. That's pretty rules light.

I would say that WFRP2e with its core central mechanic (which 1e doesn't have) is at least as rules light as nWoD (and rules lighter once you add in one of nWoD's splats).

WFRP1e's ruleset is old school in that it has a variety of separate "ad hoc" rules instead of a core mechanic. As a result, though its probably about the same rules weight as WFRP2e, it can feel a little heavier to some people.

The 40K RPGs are much more complex than either.

Quote from: Skywalker;781344I would say that WFRP2e with its core central mechanic (which 1e doesn't have) is at least as rules light as nWoD (and rules light once you add in one of nWoD's splats).

WFRP1e's ruleset is old school in that it has a variety of separate "ad hoc" rules instead of a core mechanic. As a result, though its probably about the same rules weight as WFRP2e, it can feel a little heavier to some people.

The 40K RPGs are much more complex than either.

This is actually a very good explanation. I agree.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;781309So basicly a Warhammer Fantasy RPG should be like Warhammer 40K? At least ruleswise. I check the Zweihander game btw.

I wasn't implying that Zweihander was better than WFRP3e. I think the WFRP3e rules look good and I really like the Star Wars implementation. I was just noting that one of the possible reasons WFRP didn't do as well as FFG's other brands is that it wasn't the game the fans were expecting (Ryan Dancey said something similar about D&D4e). Obviously, there are other reasons it didn't do so well (40K and SW are bigger brands by far).

As for Zweihander, it's more like WFRP2e than it is like Dark Heresy. However, it implements some concepts such as Tiers which are more like DH than WFRP2e. Really, it's a very houseruled version of WFRP2e.

I think the real problem with Warhammer as a fantasy rpg is that it doesn't really have a calling card or significant differentiating factor that appeals to lots of gamers.  I love it for it's focus on the PC's as impoverished hobos that lose limbs and catch scurvy before going insane, but most gamers don't seem to see that as a good time.  Dungeon Crawl Classics has since come along and replaced Warhammer as my murder hobo game of choice.

Quote from: Skywalker;781311That comment may have sold me off every looking at Zweihander. IMO the 40K RPGs brought almost nothing good to WFRP1e and 2e.

I don't know. Rogue Trader is indeed a PITA, at least as far as character creation is concerned, but Dark Heresy (1e anyway) seems simple enough.

Quote from: RabidWookie;781409I love it for it's focus on the PC's as impoverished hobos that lose limbs and catch scurvy before going insane, but most gamers don't seem to see that as a good time.

All they'd have to do is be a non-human. Elves, Dwarves and even Halflings have resistances to mutation and insanity, for some reason, in just about every edition of the game, as far as I can remember.

Hmm... maybe not in 1st. I'd have to double-check.

Quote from: The Butcher;781448I don't know. Rogue Trader is indeed a PITA, at least as far as character creation is concerned, but Dark Heresy (1e anyway) seems simple enough.

It's the simplest of the 40K lines, but even DH is WFRP2e +30% more complexity.

Quote from: Skywalker;781458It's the simplest of the 40K lines, but even DH is WFRP2e +30% more complexity.

I find Black Crusade to be much simpler than DH by a fair amount. But it's still pretty hefty.

Quote from: yojimbouk;781367As for Zweihander, it's more like WFRP2e than it is like Dark Heresy. However, it implements some concepts such as Tiers which are more like DH than WFRP2e. Really, it's a very houseruled version of WFRP2e.

Thanks for the comment.

In fact, it did start out as a house-ruled version of WFRPG 2e, but evolved into its own right as a standalone system.

ZWEIHÄNDER eliminated a lot of the oddities found in WFRP and WH40k by adapting a nested design principle. With nested design, all rules radiate beneath three "parent" concepts: Combat, Wilderness Travel and Social Intrigue. It's a massive spiderweb of interconnectivity, where all "children" rules are bound together by common partnered relationships. Bounded ruleset design completely eliminates the ad hoc approach that many people experience with other tabletop RPGs.

With the elegance of nested design, I found it increasingly easy to adjust and remove rules wholesale - particularly over a year long stint of play testing.

For those who wish to learn more about ZWEIHÄNDER, you can read the introduction to the system here: http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=8

I'm looking forward to the finished product, but one thing about Zweihänder that I'm not crazy about is the idea of giving each career a special perk/rule of its own.

Still, I'll withhold judgement until I've seen the complete game, and I'm very, very happy that someone is doing a retro WFRP tribute game. :)

Quote from: Skywalker;781344I would say that WFRP2e with its core central mechanic (which 1e doesn't have) is at least as rules light as nWoD (and rules lighter once you add in one of nWoD's splats).

WFRP1e's ruleset is old school in that it has a variety of separate "ad hoc" rules instead of a core mechanic. As a result, though its probably about the same rules weight as WFRP2e, it can feel a little heavier to some people.

The 40K RPGs are much more complex than either.

I can remember liking the percentile system, but the combat was sluggish. Attack roll, damage roll, maybe a defense roll (not sure, can't really remember) and a lot of chart looking for where you hit your enemy.

I searched for it and it appears to have a to hit roll, a location, a damage roll, soak and a dodge/parry roll. So combat is more like the old WoD. A lots and lots of tables.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;781722I can remember liking the percentile system, but the combat was sluggish. Attack roll, damage roll, maybe a defense roll (not sure, can't really remember) and a lot of chart looking for where you hit your enemy.

Rolls tend to be very quick though as they are roll d100 under a stat on your own sheet. There is no need to obtain information from your opponent, like in nWoD, or oppose rolls (defence rolls are not directly opposed) which tends to slow down play more IME.

Also, location is not needed for many hits as monster and most PCs have equal armour points on each location.

Finally, I would recommend rolling attack and damage together.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;781722I can remember liking the percentile system, but the combat was sluggish. Attack roll, damage roll, maybe a defense roll (not sure, can't really remember) and a lot of chart looking for where you hit your enemy.

Hit location was actually pretty simple: you just reversed the digits of your dice roll and checked the body location image on each character sheet.

HOWEVER, things indeed got more complicated with multiple attacks. Arguably that's the case in lots of games, though.

Quote from: RabidWookie;781409I think the real problem with Warhammer as a fantasy rpg is that it doesn't really have a calling card or significant differentiating factor that appeals to lots of gamers.  I love it for it's focus on the PC's as impoverished hobos that lose limbs and catch scurvy before going insane, but most gamers don't seem to see that as a good time.  Dungeon Crawl Classics has since come along and replaced Warhammer as my murder hobo game of choice.

The problem is, that approach is a bit like saying that Star Wars is about a desert redneck overthrowing evil king.

Technically you are somewhat right, but there's so much more to that.

Warhammer for me is about the parody/pastiche of Medieval/Renaissance, a world that feels kinda like ours but isn't. It's Blackadder Meets Hitchcock Meets Cthulhu. And indeed, that last part is very important to recognise, at least IMO. WFRP isn't just about murderhobos going into dungeons, though it certainly can be about ruthless mercenaries traversing the countryside - but what stood out the most in say, Enemy Within, Restless Dead and even Lichemaster for me, that it's about characters that are in a Wrong Place doing the Right Thing (and preferably getting rich while doing so).

Sure, they may be scum of the earth, but when the time comes, and they get involved in conspiracies beyond their head, they don't run away from it, but like the heroes of 39 Steps and Man Who Knew Too Much, they are average or slightly above average folk answering the call of duty. This is why they have Fate Points after all - not that they can survive a knife to the ribs from a merchant they tried to rob, but that they can dodge out of a Chaos Knight's axe when the balance of the world hangs. If one'd be tempted for an even grimmer version, one needs to consider the very reasoning for Fate Points - the characters being pieces in the great games of gods, blessed, or perhaps cursed by their involvement in them, since some divinity grants them those FPs after all.

Quote from: Rincewind1;781746The problem is, that approach is a bit like saying that Star Wars is about a desert redneck overthrowing evil king.

Technically you are somewhat right, but there's so much more to that.

Warhammer for me is about the parody/pastiche of Medieval/Renaissance, a world that feels kinda like ours but isn't. It's Blackadder Meets Hitchcock Meets Cthulhu. And indeed, that last part is very important to recognise, at least IMO. WFRP isn't just about murderhobos going into dungeons, though it certainly can be about ruthless mercenaries traversing the countryside - but what stood out the most in say, Enemy Within, Restless Dead and even Lichemaster for me, that it's about characters that are in a Wrong Place doing the Right Thing (and preferably getting rich while doing so).

Sure, they may be scum of the earth, but when the time comes, and they get involved in conspiracies beyond their head, they don't run away from it, but like the heroes of 39 Steps and Man Who Knew Too Much, they are average or slightly above average folk answering the call of duty. This is why they have Fate Points after all - not that they can survive a knife to the ribs from a merchant they tried to rob, but that they can dodge out of a Chaos Knight's axe when the balance of the world hangs. If one'd be tempted for an even grimmer version, one needs to consider the very reasoning for Fate Points - the characters being pieces in the great games of gods, blessed, or perhaps cursed by their involvement in them, since some divinity grants them those FPs after all.

Agreed with all of this. The mixture of ordinary with epic is possibly the greatest barrier to people playing the game IMO, it's hard to hit the right balance without veering too far in either direction. Too much of the ordinary and it just becomes misery tourism with swords -- too far in the other and you might as well just play D&D.

Quote from: RabidWookie;781409I think the real problem with Warhammer as a fantasy rpg is that it doesn't really have a calling card or significant differentiating factor that appeals to lots of gamers.

Also, the WFRP world/style and the WFB world/style have deviated greatly since the early days of the GW hobby.

Quote from: Spinachcat;783593Also, the WFRP world/style and the WFB world/style have deviated greatly since the early days of the GW hobby.

In which way does it differ?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;783695In which way does it differ?

There used to be a more prevalent sense of tongue-in-cheek silliness that nowadays is pretty much relegated to Orcs/Orks.

I mean, just look at the miniatures and illustrations on this blog:

http://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.co.uk/

Nowadays Warhammer Fantasy is much more serious. I mean, that can be okay, but... It is different.

Quote from: Rincewind1;781746Warhammer for me is about the parody/pastiche of Medieval/Renaissance, a world that feels kinda like ours but isn't. It's Blackadder Meets Hitchcock Meets Cthulhu. And indeed, that last part is very important to recognise, at least IMO. WFRP isn't just about murderhobos going into dungeons, though it certainly can be about ruthless mercenaries traversing the countryside - but what stood out the most in say, Enemy Within, Restless Dead and even Lichemaster for me, that it's about characters that are in a Wrong Place doing the Right Thing (and preferably getting rich while doing so).

Brilliant and spot on. Now I really want to run Enemy Within again - and burn down a barge or two.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;783918Brilliant and spot on. Now I really want to run Enemy Within again - and burn down a barge or two.

You know, for those who dislike Warhammer 3e, the one book worth salvaging is the Enemy Within module. The module is rather good and while only making nods to the original set, the scenarios are worthy of play in their own right.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;783921You know, for those who dislike Warhammer 3e, the one book worth salvaging is the Enemy Within module. The module is rather good and while only making nods to the original set, the scenarios are worthy of play in their own right.

I've previously played TEW with 2nd Edition rules but plan to go 1st next time - but should a 3rd Edition version turn up at a fair price, I might give it a look. Same actually goes for the rules. Like I completely missed/skipped 4th edition D&D I never really gave WFRP3 a look - not any hate or aversion, just too little time and too many books/games already - but fiddly bits and strange dice actually appeals to me, so again, should I stumble over a cheap box.