I've recently been dipping my toe back into historical wargaming.
I'm kind of shocked at how expensive wargames products are.
Wargames Vault, the drivethru equivalent, is packed with 40 or 50 page amateurish-looking black and white rulebooks with minimal art cut and pasted from wikipedia or somewhere, that go for fifteen or twenty quid.
I looked at one naval wargame that wanted about fifteen quid for a 50pp core rulebook, then another six or seven for a book to play a particular period, then another fiver or so for ship data cards...
Compare and contrast vs say World Without Number, 400 gorgeous full colour pages and years of gaming for fifteen quid.
I guess wargamers are just more used to splashing the cash.
I think RPG books are quite famous for being cheap!
I think 'serious' wargames take the attitude that you're paying for the rules not the presentation, so shorter is better. Not sure how viable this model is in the Internet age, though.
Don't go anywhere near Games Workshop, then. RPG manual quality, at wargame scaled prices.
Quote from: Marchand on April 08, 2021, 04:23:55 AMCompare and contrast vs say World Without Number, 400 gorgeous full colour pages and years of gaming for fifteen quid.
RPG are mostly just art books, sold based on their eye catching art and layouts. Wargames exist to be played and not just read (GW notwithstanding).
Speaking for miniature naval wargames (my other hobby), the price goes up for two unavoidable reasons:
1) Few players. A sad reality of today gaming. Even those who publish their games without profit in mind need to keep the prices up to at least recoup their investment in time and effort.
2) Research (i.e. where time and effort go). Once you have a working rule set (already an achievement by itself) you have to research and translate into your rule set hundreds - if not thousands - of "platforms" (i.e. Ships, Subs and Airplanes for a naval wargame). A game like "Seekrieg V" (the virtual king of naval wargaming) offers, in its base package, a number of pre-compiled ship logs from various nations, plus some ready-to-play famous battles. Then, in its "GREAT BRITAIN 1880-1945" expansion alone, you find over 1,800 pre-compiled ship logs from the era - with each ship further detailed according to upgrades, refits etc. (so the USS Texas in 1920 uses a different log than the same ship in 1944). And whoe if you miss a single secondary AA battery on a torpedo boat.
So, it is apples vs. oranges. You can't really compare a detailed wargame with the base book of an RPG.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 08, 2021, 11:47:21 AM
Quote from: Marchand on April 08, 2021, 04:23:55 AMCompare and contrast vs say World Without Number, 400 gorgeous full colour pages and years of gaming for fifteen quid.
RPG are mostly just art books, sold based on their eye catching art and layouts. Wargames exist to be played and not just read (GW notwithstanding).
Current RPG books, concur. 'Twas not always thus; more's the pity.
Quote from: Marchand on April 08, 2021, 04:23:55 AM
I've recently been dipping my toe back into historical wargaming.
I'm kind of shocked at how expensive wargames products are.
Wargames Vault, the drivethru equivalent, is packed with 40 or 50 page amateurish-looking black and white rulebooks with minimal art cut and pasted from wikipedia or somewhere, that go for fifteen or twenty quid.
I looked at one naval wargame that wanted about fifteen quid for a 50pp core rulebook, then another six or seven for a book to play a particular period, then another fiver or so for ship data cards...
Compare and contrast vs say World Without Number, 400 gorgeous full colour pages and years of gaming for fifteen quid.
I guess wargamers are just more used to splashing the cash.
I haven't used this one so... http://www.ravenfeast.com/free-downloads.html (http://www.ravenfeast.com/free-downloads.html)
Totally not WH or WH40K https://onepagerules.com/ (https://onepagerules.com/) Don't let the name fool you AoF & GDF are about 28 pages, also their suplements are free, and the full book is for sale in DTRPG IIRC.
Think this one is in DTTRPG FreeWars_LRGGv1.2
Really short rules https://fubarwargames.wordpress.com/downloads/ (https://fubarwargames.wordpress.com/downloads/)
Edited to add:Yet Another Totally not WH, this time it's a full blown book with armies and sheit: https://printandplayfantasy.com/three-plains-rulebooks/ (https://printandplayfantasy.com/three-plains-rulebooks/)
Fleet warfare but in space https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/rules.html (https://shop.groundzerogames.co.uk/rules.html)
Quote from: Reckall on April 08, 2021, 11:57:05 AM
Speaking for miniature naval wargames (my other hobby), the price goes up for two unavoidable reasons:
1) Few players. A sad reality of today gaming. Even those who publish their games without profit in mind need to keep the prices up to at least recoup their investment in time and effort.
2) Research (i.e. where time and effort go). Once you have a working rule set (already an achievement by itself) you have to research and translate into your rule set hundreds - if not thousands - of "platforms" (i.e. Ships, Subs and Airplanes for a naval wargame). A game like "Seekrieg V" (the virtual king of naval wargaming) offers, in its base package, a number of pre-compiled ship logs from various nations, plus some ready-to-play famous battles. Then, in its "GREAT BRITAIN 1880-1945" expansion alone, you find over 1,800 pre-compiled ship logs from the era - with each ship further detailed according to upgrades, refits etc. (so the USS Texas in 1920 uses a different log than the same ship in 1944). And whoe if you miss a single secondary AA battery on a torpedo boat.
So, it is apples vs. oranges. You can't really compare a detailed wargame with the base book of an RPG.
QFT.
Quote from: S'mon on April 08, 2021, 05:53:17 AM
I think RPG books are quite famous for being cheap!
I think 'serious' wargames take the attitude that you're paying for the rules not the presentation, so shorter is better. Not sure how viable this model is in the Internet age, though.
For sure that's still true about RPGs long-term; short-term depends on are you a
hoarder collector or not and how much you need for up-front buy. Def beats wargames as minis costs accrue.
Service manuals for automobiles are not cheap. Lots of charts and rules in them.
There are loads of freebies here, although the list hasn't been updated for a while so many will be dead links.
https://freewargamesrules.fandom.com/wiki/Freewargamesrules_Wiki