So, long and short of it. My players are having a ball. They love all their abilities, they love how tough their characters are, and the plot of the game.

I am DMing, and am sick to death of 5E. I don't think it's the antichrist of D&D or anything, but I have a number of serious complaints. The group is around level 8 (5 players) and almost anything I throw at them, even when I throw Deadly Encounters (by the book, at the very highest end of the xp budget or above), I can't challenge them anymore. Their magical items are moderate at best, one character still has none at all. I also find the sheer number of abilities the characters have is daunting to keep track of. I want to just take the campaign, wave the wand and have it switch to AD&D (1e) and keep moving on.

But how to convince the group? How do I sell them on why this needs to happen. Because, seriously, I like the direction the story is going, I love the characters (and there has been some deaths), and I'm delighted the group is having fun, but it's no damn fun for me. It's also a hell of a lot of work for me to design the encounters and opponents in the game. I personally love AD&D 1E, and have done so since I bought it (by accident) at a used game store.

Not sure if I'm venting here or not, but... advice? And please - for the love of Pete, the advice of "just run what the players are enjoying" is neither appreciated nor constructive. I don't wish to continue using the 5E engine at all, and have been threatening to cancel the game lately due to my lack of fun.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;912492[...]the advice of "just run what the players are enjoying" is neither appreciated nor constructive. I don't wish to continue using the 5E engine at all, and have been threatening to cancel the game lately due to my lack of fun.

Then you are at an impasse.

Ask if one of the players is willing to take over GMing duties while you play.  If you're not even willing to play 5E and you're prepared to prioritize that choice over having fun with your friends, cancelling the game is the only option you've allowed yourself.

I'd say, rather than waste your time trying to explain to the players why you don't enjoy running that other game - demonstrate your obvious enthusiasm for 1e AD&D and see how that goes. Obviously, there's probably going to be a certain element of 'you just want to take our toys away from us', but hopefully they'll be mature enough, and trust you enough, to get over that in favor of everyone having a good time. At least in my experience, sticking with 1e ultimately makes for a much richer experience precisely because you're not tasked with juggling all manner of player abilities and massive stat blocks and can focus on just playing the game. You'll also be freed up to improvise encounters on the fly - which sounds like it's next to impossible in 5e.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;912492So, long and short of it. My players are having a ball. They love all their abilities, they love how tough their characters are, and the plot of the game.

I am DMing, and am sick to death of 5E. I don't think it's the antichrist of D&D or anything, but I have a number of serious complaints. The group is around level 8 (5 players) and almost anything I throw at them, even when I throw Deadly Encounters (by the book, at the very highest end of the xp budget or above), I can't challenge them anymore. Their magical items are moderate at best, one character still has none at all. I also find the sheer number of abilities the characters have is daunting to keep track of. I want to just take the campaign, wave the wand and have it switch to AD&D (1e) and keep moving on.

But how to convince the group? How do I sell them on why this needs to happen. Because, seriously, I like the direction the story is going, I love the characters (and there has been some deaths), and I'm delighted the group is having fun, but it's no damn fun for me. It's also a hell of a lot of work for me to design the encounters and opponents in the game. I personally love AD&D 1E, and have done so since I bought it (by accident) at a used game store.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;912492Not sure if I'm venting here or not, but... advice? And please - for the love of Pete, the advice of "just run what the players are enjoying" is neither appreciated nor constructive. I don't wish to continue using the 5E engine at all, and have been threatening to cancel the game lately due to my lack of fun.

How much experience you had running AD&D campaigns?

When you say AD&D? Are you talking about Unearthed Arcana as well? Are the two Survival books with their proficiency system are going to be part of it? Are you going to severely limit the amount of magic items, because AD&D 1st still has the same problems as 5e it just shifted over the magic items the players acquire. The UA classes are overpowered compared to the PHB classes. Then there is the fact that the Monster Manual is really OD&D Plus. So when you throw UA in the mix, the player's power curve exceeds that of the monsters.

The way I foisted OD&D, in the form of Swords & Wizardry, on my group is that I explained this is campaign I am going to run and how the rules work with it. What helped was the fact that all the options they were used were still present except they were more notes for your character sheet with much of their effects roleplayed rather using rule mechanics like GURPS advantage and skill setup.

I introduced a handful of house rules that I felt were necessary to run my setting using OD&D. They were Ritual casting, Abilities, and Combat Stunts. Ritual casting were for a cost in gold, the character could cast any spell out of their spellbook (or any clerical spell) as a ritual) The limits were that it took 10 minutes to do (think wandering monster checks), and that you could only cast spells up to half of the highest level you can memorize.  Abilities work liked skills except any character can do them, some were better at a certain abilities than others. For example Fighters would good at Athletics (bending bars, lift gates, open doors, etc), and Burglars were good at Stealth. But Burglars can use Athletics, and Fighters could use Stealth. Combat Stunt allow character to things like trip, disarm, etc in lieu of damage, but the target got a unmodifiered saving throw. Which what worked against a orc or even a troll was not likely to result while fighting a Demon Lord or a high level Fighter.

I am not saying these are the changes YOU need to make, but what you need to do is think about the kind of campaign you want to run with AD&D. Add anything you need to make that campaign happen the way you want it to happen with the AD&D rules. Then sell the CAMPAIGN to the players.

Otherwise the chances are high they will say no. D&D 5e has more ways of customizing your characters than AD&D and has more details and options in how you can fight out a combat encounters. Both are the primary source of complaints back in the day about AD&D versus the competition.

You may find that, as a compromise, that you stick with 5e but you use only the four classes from the Basic book. Or those four plus a handful of others you deem suitable for your campaign. And like my suggestion for AD&D, I would recommend you think about the kind of campaign you want to run. Go through 5e and pick out everything you want for the campaign and ignore the rest. Sell the campaign to the players and why it works the way it does.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;912492I don't think it's the antichrist of D&D or anything, but I have a number of serious complaints. The group is around level 8 (5 players) and almost anything I throw at them, even when I throw Deadly Encounters (by the book, at the very highest end of the xp budget or above), I can't challenge them anymore. Their magical items are moderate at best, one character still has none at all. I also find the sheer number of abilities the characters have is daunting to keep track of.

For what little it's worth, your situation matches mine.

Between teleportation, wind walking, elemental wildshapes (think earthglide and fly speed of 100ft while resistant to mundane weapons), polymorphing, reroll abilities on everybody and everything, perpetual invisibility, scrying that recharges on a short rest for the warlock... I don't know, I just don't want to cook my brain anymore for the bizarre scenarios and dick moves it takes to challenge a party that can do all those things while waving off buckets of damage.

Few fictional universes allow this many reality-breaking powers on the protagonists, and those that do have to resort to frequent bullshit excuses in order to tell any sort of human-relatable story with identifiable dramatic tension. I'm just not skillful enough to keep up.

I'm probably going to let one of my games die at an appropriate point of closure and run the other one until 10th level or so and call it quits.

I don't know what system and premise I'll switch to next, but the special powers will be much more focused and limited.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;912492But how to convince the group? How do I sell them on why this needs to happen. Because, seriously, I like the direction the story is going, I love the characters (and there has been some deaths), and I'm delighted the group is having fun, but it's no damn fun for me. It's also a hell of a lot of work for me to design the encounters and opponents in the game. I personally love AD&D 1E, and have done so since I bought it (by accident) at a used game store.

Tell your group what you typed up here. Ask them if they'd be willing to switch to AD&D. If they say No, you're fucked. Quit playing/GMing.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;912513Between teleportation, wind walking, elemental wildshapes (think earthglide and fly speed of 100ft while resistant to mundane weapons), polymorphing, reroll abilities on everybody and everything, perpetual invisibility, scrying that recharges on a short rest for the warlock... I don't know, I just don't want to cook my brain anymore for the bizarre scenarios and dick moves it takes to challenge a party that can do all those things while waving off buckets of damage.

Does it seem like E6/P6 might make a comeback?

How about plain vanilla 5E? The big four races/classes.  Or, if you really want to power down, this and roll everything random (which means very few spell casters).

Some observations from DMing 5e and playing it.

1: The CRs for encounters are a loose guide at best and are not the be-all-end-all of gauges for how tough a battle will be.

2: Make sure the players arent abusing things like Polymorph, which it sounds like someone possibly is. Keep an eye on the restrictions. Teleport and Fly are two more that get abused. In fact it kinda sounds like your players are reading from the "How to Abuse Spells For Dummies" playbook. Which leads to 3.

3: If the players are trying to game the system and/or abuse magic or abilities. Then switching to AD&D isnt going to stop that. In fact you'll get instances where they can MORE abuse things.

X: Personally I'd be finding your group getting progressively on my nerves if I were the DM and that was going on. Instead I'd lock down some things and make sure the players are aware that some of those tricks dont fly. Or dont work as they thought they would. And more importantly. If they can do these stunts. So can the enemy. Its not so funny when an enemy sorcerer uses those same tricks you have been.
Probably part of the probem too is you have a large group. These tend to be ALOT harder to challenge as they can cover alot of points whereas smaller groups have more and more openings that can be exploited.

Also look at tactics for the enemy. Lowly wolves can be a threat to even higher level groups under the right circumstances. Or even just shifting to more skilled ranged combatants and mages.

As for switching to AD&D. About all you can do is pitch the idea and see if they go for it. But as noted. You may end up with the exact same problem all over.

"My players are using the game as intended, and it's annoying me.  SO I want to change to a system that's even more broken and prone to abuses, that'll fix their wagon!"

Did I get that right?

Announce that you are no longer enjoying running the game because <$REASONS> but you'd dig an old-school, save-or-die, balls-to-the-walls AD&D 1e game. So much, in fact, that you'd be willing to use the same setting and characters (including the PCs), as a compromise, if everyone's game.

If you're not enjoying running the game, just don't run it. You don't have a sacred duty to run the game everyone loves when it's no longer fun for you. You're just as entitled to enjoy yourself as everyone else.

Quote from: Omega;912531If the players are trying to game the system and/or abuse magic or abilities. Then switching to AD&D isnt going to stop that. In fact you'll get instances where they can MORE abuse things.

Also this. Make sure the problem is with 5e and not with the way players are behaving. Ask yourself whether a change in setting would serve you better than a change in system, or if a simpler conversation on playstyle and expectations would save you a lot of headache.

The easiest way to up the difficulty of 5E if things are getting too easy is to change the definition of short rest to a night's rest, and long rest to consecutive nights in a safe locale. And you can always make encounters more difficult in any edition by changing the context. So more proactive enemies, more ambushes, intelligent spell use by enemies, combining monsters in cruel ways, combining traps and monsters, etc.

If you're still frustrated, convert Rappan Athuk to 5E and have at it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;912536"My players are using the game as intended, and it's annoying me.  SO I want to change to a system that's even more broken and prone to abuses, that'll fix their wagon!"

Did I get that right?

Someone seems to really like 5E.:-)

I feel like it's the fiddliness the OP doesn't like, as indicated by the tracking of all the different things a PC can do. I also find that a complete turn off, as well, which is one reason I don't run 5th. I also wholeheartedly agree with Cb here that AD&D might simply present different problems, leaving the OP in the same position as before (which is why I suggested "Freebooters on the Frontier").:-D

I'm sure that there are ways to make the game more challenging for them (for you).

Restrict how many Rests that they can take. Have the enemy also use those exploitative spells. Introduce more environmental complications that restrict movement/flight/concentration checks. Increase the DC of your challenges so that they have to use up their Inspiration. Pile on more monsters that have save or OUCH effects (Banshees, Medusas etc...).

Or yeah, just talk with them and explain that you aren't having much fun because you're not beating up their characters enough, I guess.

EDIT: if it's more about the fiddlyness of tracking their abilities... Do you supervise their choices in levelling up? Do you check up on the spells that they choose? I once missed that a spellcaster chose Flight and regretted it.

Quote from: cranebump;912549Someone seems to really like 5E.:-)

Not really.  It's just that I've played 2e more than I care to remember, I have the 1e books, and given the sheer mass of conflicting stuff, AD&D really is prone to more abuse.

Quote from: cranebump;912549I feel like it's the fiddliness the OP doesn't like, as indicated by the tracking of all the different things a PC can do. I also find that a complete turn off, as well, which is one reason I don't run 5th. I also wholeheartedly agree with Cb here that AD&D might simply present different problems, leaving the OP in the same position as before (which is why I suggested "Freebooters on the Frontier").:-D

And the Players should be handling their classes, not the DM.