Interesting article about "Mixed Reality" games.
Includes a shout out to using this tech for D&D.
http://venturebeat.com/2016/04/11/castars-latest-demos-show-how-it-plans-to-enable-tabletop-mixed-reality-games/
Would you use it?
A blending of Virtual Tabletop software like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 with VR technology (Virtual Reality TableTop or VRTT) is inevitable. But, it would take the reality of VTT software now, which is that if you're not a programmer, you're stuck with the base tools essentially playing 100% RAW, and multiply it 100 fold. Are your elves tall Noldor like elves, smaller Greyhawk like Elves or anime-animalistic Warcraft Night Elves? If the VRTT comes with one set of graphics, you're fucked, relying on others to do the computer graphics for you.
Minecraft and other similar "digital lego" games show what you can do as far as putting together a do-it-yourself approach to graphics and environment building, unfortunately someone would have to take that user-friendly UI approach, meld it with user-friendly form-editing tools and put it out as a cohesive whole. Supposedly there's not enough money in tabletop to do that.
What will happen is various companies will come out with their own, proprietary VRTT systems, and some of them will include mod tools. Maybe a decade after the first few professionally polished VRTT boardgames come out (which itself is probably 5-10 away) the tech will be ubiquitous enough that people will be putting together software systems that would let you easily pick from massive libraries. We'll be rocking it from the old folks home.
Ironically, the company that has the heft to buy themselves into the God-spot with this technology is Hasbro themselves. With a billion boardgames, Magic the Gathering and D&D, a universal VRTT system with graphics and rules packages to allow you to play their entire library of games on the VRTT would definitely make them the market leader and probably grab them up a ton of patents if they went for it. Unfortunately, they would require such ridiculous IP licensing like $9 a month per game or $5 per day per game for access to the Hasbro catalog.
Second Life has that level of creativity and customizability and has been used for extensive VR TTRPGing. On the text only scale theres at least one complete translation of Shadowrun into a MUD. Unfortunately the admin are worse than abusive so no one plays it.
Quote from: Omega;895123Second Life has that level of creativity and customizability and has been used for extensive VR TTRPGing. On the text only scale theres at least one complete translation of Shadowrun into a MUD. Unfortunately the admin are worse than abusive so no one plays it.
Do tell.
Would I use it? Well... no. I stopped using miniatures and battle setups for D&D. I want people to play inside their mind.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;895260Do tell.
SL? A very freeform builder MMO that allows alot of freedom to craft about anything. Bodies, gear, vehicles, environments, etc. I saw briefly a Dune zone (until it was shut down) and one player I know has an extensive aerospace museum with replicas of many aircraft and vehicles. Limited only by ability to 3d model or failing that build from the systems basic shapes. At least one D&D zone.
Shadowrun? As mentioned in other threads, a near perfect translation of the SR RPG rules into a MUD. Character gen, skills, races, equipment, everything. Also alot of areas created and NPCs to get missions from. Problem is the admin. Theres a reason (several actually) why only a handfull play it anymore. At the time I quit I didnt know just how bad off things were. Up to and including one of the admin using login data to stalk and harass.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895261Would I use it? Well... no. I stopped using miniatures and battle setups for D&D. I want people to play inside their mind.
"... because the graphics are better."
Quote from: CRKrueger;895103Are your elves tall Noldor like elves, smaller Greyhawk like Elves or anime-animalistic Warcraft Night Elves? If the VRTT comes with one set of graphics, you're fucked, relying on others to do the computer graphics for you.
That's a problem with miniatures and cardboard heroes/FR pawns and Dwarven Forge/Dungeon Floor Plans as well.
Or with games that rely on lots of physical components, like card-based RPGs.
If the platform is good, it will be modded, I did that with wargames for a long time, and found that someone updated one of my old campaigns and ran it as a challenge in a wargame forum, which was pretty cool. I could totally see some sort of VRTT doing ok with enough support, most likely in another order of processing power, so it's down the road some.
Would I use it? Doubtful. A lot of the hobby's interaction with computing solutions involve expensive, clunky products with high learning curves, with the end users as unpaid beta testers, and a high obsolescence rate as the ephemeral companies making them go out of business or drop the line. When you add up that these "solutions" are often for things we've been doing all along at almost no expense (mapmaking being one of the lead offenders), no thanks.
Nope, I don't want any part of "VR RPG Tabletop" for $500 from Fanboyz, Inc., in 2020. I'll consider "VRPG 5 Pro Suite" from Apple in 2035, maybe.
No one does LAN parties anymore. VTT looks like something the Internet will over-ride as well.
Quote from: CRKrueger;895103A blending of Virtual Tabletop software like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 with VR technology (Virtual Reality TableTop or VRTT) is inevitable. But, it would take the reality of VTT software now, which is that if you're not a programmer, you're stuck with the base tools essentially playing 100% RAW, and multiply it 100 fold. Are your elves tall Noldor like elves, smaller Greyhawk like Elves or anime-animalistic Warcraft Night Elves? If the VRTT comes with one set of graphics, you're fucked, relying on others to do the computer graphics for you.
I share your sentiment. For me Neverwinter Nights by Bioware convinced me that 3D technology is of little utility to traditional tabletop campaigns. The overhead of creating custom 3D content is just too much for most for the foreseeable future.
It not the presentation but what you have to do to make the image what you want. 2D Art in contrast is far more approachable and more readily available. So the chance of you (player or referee) of finding something that matches your vision is several order of magnitude greater.
Now what could work is something like Tabletop Simulator on Steam. They are not trying to go for the 3D virtual reality experience but rather replicate bits and pieces of an actual boardgame. It incorporates 2D images like a playing board or a piece of paper. So it seems to strike a good balance between 3D and 2D.
However I think the key development is the maturing of Virtual Tabletops. If 3D makes an appearance it will be a specialized add-on like dwarven forge is to face to face. Not a central part of the experience.
One thing that could alleviate the issues with 3d modeling is the counterpart to 3d Printing - 3d Scanning. For example, there are people out there taking old GW figures and scanning for a 3d Printer, and putting the datasets online. If you had a way of 3d scanning for a computer modeling dataset as opposed to a 3d printing dataset, then you could take your entire miniatures and terrain line, scan it in and have it available for use in a 3d digital tabletop that people from all over the world could be seeing on their own tables.
We'll get there, but only after the fortunes have been made and the tech is ubiquitous enough to make it into open source models. Maybe Hasbro would do it for their own games, or Games Workshop, or FFG, Privateer Press, Wizkids, whoever the god of minis are these days, but it's highly unlikely that any of them would want an open, extendable system, and without the IP sales, no startup is going to get very far with just the tech that needs a ton of self-coding to be useful.
What we'll get in the short and near term is a bunch of competing startups running around looking for IP licensing for extremely limited configurations.
Quote from: CRKrueger;895607What we'll get in the short and near term is a bunch of competing startups running around looking for IP licensing for extremely limited configurations.
I will admit I am pessimistic about the whole VR thing. What I see is people trying but failing. The 3D virtual reality will develop but it will develop similar to D&D on the computer back in the late 70s and early 80s. People will succeed in getting the rules working but the whole package won't feel anything like a tabletop session. But it will develop from there into its own thing from that point the first megahits will develop.
What I think is a more likely possibility is surface computing and 3D printing. You have a table that is in essence a giant monitor. You have physical playing pieces with encoded bottom or chips that interact with the surface. The 3D Printer will allow people to print the pieces of the game they just downloaded onto their surface. Just apply the barcode/chips and off you go playing.
The action for the next five years will be the VTTs like Roll20 and Fantasy Ground and the biggest changes will be in the support that surround the VTTs rather than the software itself. For example both Roll20 and FG have stores that make it easy to purchase and integrate content. The software will continue to evolve and I will leave myself some wiggle room by saying as VTT developer gain experience they may come up with surprising tricks that really work well. For example Roll20's dynamic lightning is a pretty sweet bit of tech. But it more work to setup.
Quote from: Omega;895123Second Life has that level of creativity and customizability and has been used for extensive VR TTRPGing. On the text only scale theres at least one complete translation of Shadowrun into a MUD. Unfortunately the admin are worse than abusive so no one plays it.
And there is Neverwinter Nights by Bioware.
Running campaigns using NWN (or SL or any freeform 3D RPG engine) is more like running a LARP event then refereeing a tabletop session. It not a substitute for tabletop roleplaying.
Quote from: estar;895611And there is Neverwinter Nights by Bioware.
Running campaigns using NWN (or SL or any freeform 3D RPG engine) is more like running a LARP event then refereeing a tabletop session. It not a substitute for tabletop roleplaying.
One of the main drawbacks is NPCs. A single DM can only control and speak through one at a time. Or move groups around unless you pre-code some paths and canned conversation. Youd need something like a LARP with a DM and a crew to play the NPCs. Though as mentioned in an older thread. I've met two free roaming AIs now. One was on a MUD and was very sophisticated. The other was on Second Life and not as sophisticated by far.
Who knows where we will be in a few more years.
lol At people solving their own problems they put up. Once the processing power is there, integration, the AI's, modeling, will all happen. It will probably be 10-20 years from now, and then have to have time for the technology to mature and become standard.
Quote from: CRKrueger;895103A blending of Virtual Tabletop software like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20 with VR technology (Virtual Reality TableTop or VRTT) is inevitable. But, it would take the reality of VTT software now, which is that if you're not a programmer, you're stuck with the base tools essentially playing 100% RAW, and multiply it 100 fold. Are your elves tall Noldor like elves, smaller Greyhawk like Elves or anime-animalistic Warcraft Night Elves?
Not to mention short and muscular Elfquest elves or plant-based Gloranthan Aldryami elves...and what about Moorcock's pale faced Melniboneans and Vadhagh, the Tuatha de Danaan or the fae?
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895261Would I use it? Well... no. I stopped using miniatures and battle setups for D&D.
Now when I pull out the minis I will congratulate myself that I am more old school than the oldest school. ;)
Quote from: Ravenswing;895538A lot of the hobby's interaction with computing solutions involve expensive, clunky products with high learning curves, with the end users as unpaid beta testers, and a high obsolescence rate as the ephemeral companies making them go out of business or drop the line.
Those three are killers for me. I was gearing up to use Obsidian Portal for my H+I campaign, then they did an upgrade and suddenly all the old sites looked like shit and became difficult to use. Killed my enthusiasm right there.
Quote from: Bren;895624I was gearing up to use Obsidian Portal for my H+I campaign, then they did an upgrade and suddenly all the old sites looked like shit and became difficult to use. Killed my enthusiasm right there.
Worst upgrade ever though, it's like they didn't even test it first, then when I complained I lost a ton of wiki entries (68 pages worth) plus all the comments on the logs, and no topics in the forums, their reply was "it's gone". Not a good way to treat people, I even was a kickstarter backer. The good thing is that it motivated me to migrate to my own forum, which has actually been far less painful than OP.
Quote from: CRKrueger;895607One thing that could alleviate the issues with 3d modeling is the counterpart to 3d Printing - 3d Scanning. For example, there are people out there taking old GW figures and scanning for a 3d Printer, and putting the datasets online. If you had a way of 3d scanning for a computer modeling dataset as opposed to a 3d printing dataset, then you could take your entire miniatures and terrain line, scan it in and have it available for use in a 3d digital tabletop that people from all over the world could be seeing on their own tables.
I could be wrong but posting those datasets without permission could run up against copyright law. Sculpting / modeling is copyrightable.
You have also a secondary problem that scans of 3d models, much like any old 3d model someone might have created for 3D rendering / animation or a game isn't necessarily set up to 3d print correctly. A 3d model should be a sealed surface with no geometry overlapping or faces inverted. Print something that hasn't been cleaned up and the results could be like a botched transporter accident.
Quote from: Ravenswing;895538A lot of the hobby's interaction with computing solutions involve expensive, clunky products with high learning curves, with the end users as unpaid beta testers, and a high obsolescence rate as the ephemeral companies making them go out of business or drop the line. When you add up that these "solutions" are often for things we've been doing all along at almost no expense (mapmaking being one of the lead offenders), no thanks.
I was quite surprised at the crappy CAD experience of ProFantasy. I can see why a company may want to take that route but it isn't one that fits a vertical market like ours. To me, it seems much better to work with a 3d modeling application for building original content and then using an 'integration' type tool for other purposes (terrain, characters).
Quote from: Omega;895620One of the main drawbacks is NPCs. A single DM can only control and speak through one at a time. Or move groups around unless you pre-code some paths and canned conversation. Youd need something like a LARP with a DM and a crew to play the NPCs. Though as mentioned in an older thread. I've met two free roaming AIs now. One was on a MUD and was very sophisticated. The other was on Second Life and not as sophisticated by far.
Who knows where we will be in a few more years.
Having human helper would help. But in NWN case they had this "possession" feature that worked quickly enough that I was able to roleplay a half-dozen NPCs. And for combat encounter, the AI was sufficient allowing me to hop around strategically to play the leader and/or lieutenant.
Actually had one really outstanding session that lasted for about eight hours. But oh god the time it took to set it up.
My recommendation if somebody is serious about this is do the Neverwinter Nights user interface for actually running/playing the game. Coupled with a Roll20 style store to buy asset, with a stackoverflow style request area where request for models can get voted up. A 3D modeler can then look at see what popular and make it to sell in the marketplace. Then have a robust multiplayer engine for persistent worlds. NWN PW utilities were cobbled together by the community.
The biggest R&D is figuring out how to improve on NWN editors to make it easier without straightjacketing somebody creativity. NWN was just too time consuming.
Personally I would take a page from Dwarven Forge and start off with Dungeon only setup. You got a town, and some crazy ass dungeon that you can customize to your heart's content. Be smart and build in the ability to expand.
You know now that i think about it, maybe that the way to go. Replicate or license Dwarven Forge as 3D Models along with Dungeon tiles for the service. Fuck trying to make a textured virtual really. Just go what been known to work in face to face gaming.
Then layer on top of that NWN style spawn area, pathing monster, scripting, etc, etc.
Still won't substitute for tabletop but might spawn another type of computer roleplaying game where the play and content are more dynamic.
Quote from: Lynn;895628I could be wrong but posting those datasets without permission could run up against copyright law. Sculpting / modeling is copyrightable.
You have also a secondary problem that scans of 3d models, much like any old 3d model someone might have created for 3D rendering / animation or a game isn't necessarily set up to 3d print correctly. A 3d model should be a sealed surface with no geometry overlapping or faces inverted. Print something that hasn't been cleaned up and the results could be like a botched transporter accident.
Oh it's definitely illegal, I was just using that as an example.
Quote from: Bren;895624Those three are killers for me. I was gearing up to use Obsidian Portal for my H+I campaign, then they did an upgrade and suddenly all the old sites looked like shit and became difficult to use. Killed my enthusiasm right there.
Yep. Part of my fuel for my rant about mapmaking programs was a week on TBP a few years back when there were
three threads, each on a different mapmaking software package, where the OP was along the lines of "I loved my old program, but I just switched computers, I can't unlock the software, and the company's folded/no one's answering phones or e-mail."
Beyond that -- for those of you who haven't seen the rant -- look. I know how to draw maps. I'm by no means a professional cartographer or artist, but I'm satisfied with my work. I learned how to do it long ago (probably back in elementary school), and I didn't need to master a 96 page manual to do it. My investment is a few bucks into a box of generic colored pencils and a couple bucks into some clear green plastic mechanical drawing templates (which I bought sometime in the 1980s). I draw on a 17"x22" pad of graph paper that I bought for a couple bucks in the summer of 1982, and is down to its last five sheets. (That'll be four by the end of the week; I've a new city map to draw.)
Using that as a guideline, before I try
any electronic gimmick or software, I require the following:
* That it cost me very little more (if any) money than the methods I currently use do;
* That there's very little learning curve involved, because quite aside from MY time, I expect my players would much rather I spent dozens of hours on prep work than on learning new software;
* That it's noticeably easier to use than my current method;
* That it provides a dimension currently lacking; and
* That the company involved is a mature, stable firm likely to be supporting it for a long time to come.
So far -- using mapping again as an example -- not even
Campaign Cartographer has been around as long as that 17x22 pad of mine.
Quote from: Ravenswing;895665Yep. Part of my fuel for my rant about mapmaking programs was a week on TBP a few years back when there were three threads, each on a different mapmaking software package, where the OP was along the lines of "I loved my old program, but I just switched computers, I can't unlock the software, and the company's folded/no one's answering phones or e-mail."
Back in the mid 1990s I bought my friends old DOS-based version of Campaign Cartographer. It was easy to learn, used vector images so you could zoom in without loss of resolution, and made nice maps. I probably still have it somewhere in my office, but it's likely on a 3.5" diskette that none of my last two generations of computers can read and Ghu knows if it will run on my current OS. I miss that program.
AutoRealm and photoshop work well for me. I bought CS6, but AutoRealm is free: https://sourceforge.net/projects/autorealm/
Quote from: CRKrueger;895607One thing that could alleviate the issues with 3d modeling is the counterpart to 3d Printing - 3d Scanning.
http://www.123dapp.com/catch
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;895525"... because the graphics are better."
Exactly, sir.
Quote from: Bren;895668Ghu knows if it will run on my current OS.
I know that reference!
Quote from: Bren;895624Now when I pull out the minis I will congratulate myself that I am more old school than the oldest school. ;)
According to those who were there. Neither Gary nor Dave used minis for OD&D. Or of they did, it wasnt much.
SSI's Gold Box games actually captured the feel of playing D&D with minis as the combat section was on a grid. The Neverwinter Nights MMO had that neo-VRTTRPG aspect as it used the same engine.
Some of the newer VTTs have made forays into minis use either 3d or 2d.
Quote from: Omega;895693According to those who were there. Neither Gary nor Dave used minis for OD&D. Or of they did, it wasnt much.
But they did for the even older school, Chainmail. :D
Quote from: Bren;895668Back in the mid 1990s I bought my friends old DOS-based version of Campaign Cartographer. It was easy to learn, used vector images so you could zoom in without loss of resolution, and made nice maps. I probably still have it somewhere in my office, but it's likely on a 3.5" diskette that none of my last two generations of computers can read and Ghu knows if it will run on my current OS. I miss that program.
Yep. I have gaming material on 5 1/4' floppies that nothing can read any more, on IOMEGA zip disks nothing can read any more, on Atari ST format disks nothing can read any more, from proprietary programs nothing can read any more.
Quote from: Ravenswing;895699Yep. I have gaming material on 5 1/4' floppies that nothing can read any more, on IOMEGA zip disks nothing can read any more, on Atari ST format disks nothing can read any more, from proprietary programs nothing can read any more.
And some folks wonder why the computer age did not usher in a paperless society.
Quote from: Omega;895693According to those who were there. Neither Gary nor Dave used minis for OD&D. Or of they did, it wasnt much.
At least in home games, Dave ALWAYS used minis.
Gary NEVER used minis.
The Internet will now explode.
Quote from: Omega;895123Second Life has that level of creativity and customizability and has been used for extensive VR TTRPGing. On the text only scale theres at least one complete translation of Shadowrun into a MUD. Unfortunately the admin are worse than abusive so no one plays it.
I play in an Urban RP sim, and have been RPing in Second Life since about 2006. I wouldn't recommend it for D&D, aside from trying to organize a game within the Urban RP game which uses mesh polyhedral dice and actual physics to roll them. :D
I also have the Ultimate Licence for Fantasy Grounds and a few other VTTs (Tabletop Simulator, iTabletop and d20Pro) and I think using one of these in an Augmented Reality format might be more practical... eventually. Fantasy Grounds has good potential for this, and when they switch to Unity then maybe 3D representations would be possible. Of the the above I have mentioned, probably the best equipped for Augmented Reality play is Tabletop Simulator.
My current tech I am using for pen and paper D&D is Fantasy Grounds on my travel laptop that I plug into my friend's TV, and then run combat and stuff so everyone can see. There's even a way to manually enter die rolls so players can still use their own dice, or if they are lazy I just drag and drop the attacks. :D
Quote from: Bren;895695But they did for the even older school, Chainmail. :D
Which isnt an RPG.
Quote from: Omega;895710Which isnt an RPG.
What do you mean? I can play a hero or a wizard, or an Ent or a company of orcs...
But seriously, printed on each rule book in large font it said
QuoteRules for Fantastic Medieval Wargames
Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil
and Miniature Figures
Quote from: Ravenswing;895699Yep. I have gaming material on 5 1/4' floppies that nothing can read any more, on IOMEGA zip disks nothing can read any more, on Atari ST format disks nothing can read any more, from proprietary programs nothing can read any more.
No kidding. I finally was able to get back after 15 years my old hard discs that had ALL my RPG book material on it for printing. And had a hard time finding anything that could open the text files. The image files still cant. But no loss there.
Quote from: Bren;895905What do you mean? I can play a hero or a wizard, or an Ent or a company of orcs...
But seriously, printed on each rule book in large font it said
Guess you missed the Wargame part there for Chainmail. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Omega;895941Guess you missed the Wargame part there for Chainmail. :rolleyes:
I'm unsure what you mean here. :huh: If this is a joke, I didn't get it. Sorry.
What I quoted is on the cover of the each of the original three booklets of D&D. I'm assuming your are not suggesting that OD&D is not a roleplaying game because the designers called it a wargame. Right?
The subtitle for Chainmail is:
Quoterules for medieval miniatures
[/FONT]
It doesn't say it is a wargame, but the motto of the company that published it is "WARGAMING WITH MINIARTURES." Clearly from context Chainmail is a wargame. Circa 1974, Chainmail and D&D were each called wargames.
Now the Chainmail rules are mostly about fighting with miniatures representing units. I alluded to that by my comment about roleplaying a unit of orcs. That was intended to humorously acknowledge your accurate point that Chainmail was mostly about playing miniatures that represented units not individuals. Even though the fantasy section clearly includes individuals like the above mentioned heroes, wizards, and Ents.
The rules to Chainmail include rules for individual combat e.g. the Man-to-Man Melee Table and the Individual Fires with Missiles tables which allows and seems to suggest people playing individual people, like in an RPG. Chainmail even includes rules for jousting for individual knights. At the point that you are playing the Hero Sir Hugo the Huge jousting against the infamous Black Knight Superhero, Sir Bruce San Spitty it's kind of difficult to argue that what you are doing is entirely unrelated to roleplaying. If I wanted to keep arguing that Chainmail is a roleplaying game that's the route I'd take...but I've always considered it a sort of predecessor to D&D that still had two feet in the wargaming camp and a toe or two in the nascent area of roleplaying.
If we are still disagreeing, could you kindly point me to what our disagreement is. At this point I'm confused.
Yeah thought youd trot that out. Keep struggling since you are so pathetic at trolling.
Back on topic.
The big question with VRTTs is. What are they bringing to the table that existing systems arent doing allready in 2d or semi-3d, or basic 3d?
I mean a fair portion of players dont use minis for RPGs so having a VTT then is adding what? I can sit around in SL and get the same result.
Quote from: Omega;896031I mean a fair portion of players dont use minis for RPGs so having a VTT then is adding what?
Character management. NPC management. Being able to make maps with pins for points of interest which open descriptive links when you click on them if you want. Being able to keep track of initiative automatically. Being able to track combat including rolls and saving throws. Automatic chat logging. There's a lot of useful tools, enough that I am setting up a travel laptop for Fantasy Grounds and Hero Lab so I can go to a friend's place and hook it up to his TV and run encounters without having to worry about loose pieces of paper. I realize you can still run a game without technology. Heck, you don't even need rulebooks if you are determined enough to play something. But I happen to like it.
Quote from: Omega;896031I mean a fair portion of players dont use minis for RPGs so having a VTT then is adding what? I can sit around in SL and get the same result.
If you are talking about current VTTs it isn't a matter that other program and site have a collaborative whiteboard, something to use a dice roller, text chat, and voice. It a matter of it all being combined in a way that is a lot less work for running RPG campaigns. However all software have a learning curve, so if your group know Second Life forwards and back then that going to trump the VTT no matter how good it is. The only thing to consider at that point is whether the RPG utilities the VTT includes for the system your group is using is worth making the switch. As those are of use regardless of whether you use minis or not.
I play a fair bit online using Roll 20 and Fantasy grounds and Google Hangouts and Skype... of all those, with all their bells and whistles, I still find the best experience is just having a hangout for voice chat and texting... maybe the occasional quick sketch to describe something held up to the camera. The rest of them... so many technical issues slowing the game down... and even when everything is working smoothly it ends up feeling so much like boardgames that if it isn't on the screen people cease to imagine it. So extremely limiting on what situations, creatures, atmospheres can be portrayed.
Trying to cram TTRPGs into a video games experience is soooooo restricting... unless of course my imaginary D&D game looks EXACTLY like Neverwinter Nights or whatever.
No interest in the VTT... not even if it were piping the images right out of my head and onto the screen.
I have been intrigued by the idea of using Second Life for role playing for some time--mainly as a way for me to connect with some of my role playing friends who are far away. (I realize there are better means for this, but SL adds a visual context as well.) I can also find most of the things I would want for my Cthulhu Invictus campaign already built. (Tentacled monsters pose a special problem but therein hangs an SL story.) NPC's require a quick change of accounts, but that needn't be insurmountable.
Quote from: wombat1;896449I have been intrigued by the idea of using Second Life for role playing for some time--mainly as a way for me to connect with some of my role playing friends who are far away. (I realize there are better means for this, but SL adds a visual context as well.) I can also find most of the things I would want for my Cthulhu Invictus campaign already built. (Tentacled monsters pose a special problem but therein hangs an SL story.) NPC's require a quick change of accounts, but that needn't be insurmountable.
Having used Second Life for the better part of a decade I can safely say that you should have no trouble at all from finding tentacled creatures. :D
aheh. Actually I was thinking back to tools that were around back in the late 90s like WebRPG. If anyone remembers that. And then later programs that pretty much bring together everything needed to play a TTRPG online. Hence the question what is VRTT bringing to this that is not allready there in some form. Aside from the obvious "oh neet VR!" part?
Quote from: Krimson;896454Having used Second Life for the better part of a decade I can safely say that you should have no trouble at all from finding tentacled creatures. :D
Oh finding was not the problem. It was very much an SL thing--I contacted one of the groups of tentacle critter artistes and programmers about the possibility of having an otherwise off-the-shelf tentacle beastie scripted to seem to devour a character (the character would disappear inside it). This is, of course, a very Call of Cthulhu thing for a tentacled beastie to do.
The answer came back, in essence, that they "didn't do vore" (but if I wanted the tentacled beastie to rudely use the character, that was available immediately.)
I moved off in other directions at that point.
As for "What is there that isn't already there," I would use it essentially as a means of bringing together a separated role playing group. I accept there are many other ways to do this, but I thought it would be an interesting experiment.
I just wish they had added a first person view to Neverwinter Nights 2. The original Neverwinter Nights MMO had (limited) first person. You are telling me something made in 3d 13 tears later cant even accomplish that? (aheh. Actually I understand it was due to the skybox. But still.(And yes somone did finally make a mod pack for first person.))
Quote from: wombat1;896591Oh finding was not the problem. It was very much an SL thing--I contacted one of the groups of tentacle critter artistes and programmers about the possibility of having an otherwise off-the-shelf tentacle beastie scripted to seem to devour a character (the character would disappear inside it). This is, of course, a very Call of Cthulhu thing for a tentacled beastie to do.
The answer came back, in essence, that they "didn't do vore" (but if I wanted the tentacled beastie to rudely use the character, that was available immediately.)
I moved off in other directions at that point.
As for "What is there that isn't already there," I would use it essentially as a means of bringing together a separated role playing group. I accept there are many other ways to do this, but I thought it would be an interesting experiment.
Amusing I didn't even know what vore was until last year when I played on the Neverwinter Nights persistent world Sinfar for a few months.
"When she said she wanted to eat me, I thought she was going to give me a blowjob."
Quote from: wombat1;896591The answer came back, in essence, that they "didn't do vore" (but if I wanted the tentacled beastie to rudely use the character, that was available immediately.)
Right there, all you've ever needed to know about Second Life.
Huh, I guess you do learn something new every day (I did at least). Never even heard of vore until this thread.
Quote from: CRKrueger;896767Right there, all you've ever needed to know about Second Life.
Been on since October 2006 and to this day I have not actually seen it in Second Life.
Quote from: Ravenswing;895699Yep. I have gaming material on 5 1/4' floppies that nothing can read any more, on IOMEGA zip disks nothing can read any more, on Atari ST format disks nothing can read any more, from proprietary programs nothing can read any more.
there are ways to use them on newer machines its a pain in the ass but it can be done sadly im not smart enough to do such or help with it
Quote from: Bren;895701And some folks wonder why the computer age did not usher in a paperless society.
yah really
Quote from: Krimson;896781Been on since October 2006 and to this day I have not actually seen it in Second Life.
There was. Problem was one of the zone admin was more than abusive and eventually everyone left. Said admin was admin and abusive on no less that two MUDs I'd tried way back. Seems her MO. Then another was created and it fared no better due to its own issues.
There was also a really well done space horror zone. But something went wrong at some point while I was away and its gone now.
Which is the main problem with SL. Nothing lasts due to the cost alone.
Quote from: Omega;896960Which is the main problem with SL. Nothing lasts due to the cost alone.
Having owned an island in the past, yes cost is a major factor. A full region has a monthly tier of $US 295 which was $400 when I owned one almost a decade ago. The problem with RP in Second Life is that it's herding cats. Not only do you have to have a player base, many of whom live in different timezones, but unless you have a decent job which lets you pay tier out of pocket that cost has to be mitigated by rentals. So now, you're not only herding cats, you're also trying to herd cats who have money. Drama happens often and can and will destroy sims. You really have to have an admin team with a common vision and the smaller the better.
Quote from: Krimson;897043Having owned an island in the past, yes cost is a major factor. A full region has a monthly tier of $US 295 which was $400 when I owned one almost a decade ago. The problem with RP in Second Life is that it's herding cats. Not only do you have to have a player base, many of whom live in different timezones, but unless you have a decent job which lets you pay tier out of pocket that cost has to be mitigated by rentals. So now, you're not only herding cats, you're also trying to herd cats who have money. Drama happens often and can and will destroy sims. You really have to have an admin team with a common vision and the smaller the better.
My idea was somewhat less ambitious. I intended to rent a fraction of an island or a sim (a 'lot' if you will) which one can do readily enough. I then intended to set up the following:
1. An otherwise thoroughly conventional RPG, in this case to test my Cthulhu Invictus/Call of Cthulhu campaign with,
2. A group of people I already knew, in this case, old college friends, some of whom were still nearby and some of whom moved off, perhaps with a handful of SL types who were at least arguably not bat-doots crazy, who would,
3. Make standard characters using the standard character rules in the game, and who would also,
4. Sign up for SL accounts, and then,
5. Learn just enough to function in system, and also,
6. Play just enough "dress-a-doll" to make the avatars look vaguely Roman, after which,
7. I would set up a two level site on the virtual lot, with the lower level being a fairly modern looking structure in which the "Player Avatars" would gather, and,
8. A scene suitable for the Roman game on the upper lot, let us in this case think of a Roman-era building, where,
9. I would set up furniture and clues and also,
10. Set up a Non-Player Avatar run by me when and if necessary, which is where the tentacled beastie that would appear to devour a character, belch politely, and then pick its fangs with a fang-pick afterwards, as a polite monster ought, comes in.
Now, instead of going through the mechanism where I tell the player "Make a spot hidden, oh you got it, you find the Dingus of Doom in the desk drawer," the player is free to interact with the desk, and if he does so, finds the object, and gets a note card telling him about it. Also, instead of seeing me, dilapidated middle aged man attempting to pretend to characterize a Roman centurion, or a matronly Roman noble lady, or a whiffy priest who is actually a serpent man in disguise, the players actually see all of those avatars. (They still hear me on voice, which could be bad enough.)
Once the players feel they have mined the information out of there, they go back down to the lower level, and have some time to confer over what they have discovered. They also tell me what they intend to look into next, and I work like a maniac on the upper level, setting up the next scene, swapping out the building, the clues and furniture, and the NPC's.
As for the times, it would be the same as setting up any other game over the table face to face--difficult but not impossible.
That sounded pretty cool to me as an experiment, but it would be very different from the typical SL experience.
I haven't been happy with current gen VTT for RPGs. I am interested to see what VR immersion would look like and I'd actually be more interesting in DMing than in playing.
I agree with what several of you mentioned, a key problem is that Monster X will look like how the company designed Monster X and it will be a while before we can do more than very limited customization which still puts imagination far ahead of the VR.
But it may provide a fun game experience. Maybe more like a HeroQuest / Descent experience than a "true" RPG.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896766"When she said she wanted to eat me, I thought she was going to give me a blowjob."
Back in the early 80s, our Friday Night Game Club was mix of high school and college kids. One college dude loved to RP succubus, incubus, dopplegangers and other "false front" creatures. He was a fun bastard and he played on the high school dorks' power fantasy of wanting a hot chick to give them attention. He would lure PCs to seclusion for some hot talk and action, then all hell would break loose.
To quote one confused player: "He gave me chub, then killed my character!" (omg, we laughed our asses over that quote for years).