TheRPGSite

Well I absolutely frigging love it.

http://booknest.eu/reviews/charles/1313-vampirethemasquerade5thedition

I gave it a 9.5/10 on my book review of it.

I also like how we've finally gotten some meat and potatoes with the release of the Anarch and Camarilla Guides so we know WHAT the hell has happened to the two main sects.

(The fact the Anarchs are now the main competitng sect tells you a lot about their very 1st Edition orientated vision)

It's led to a really great chronicle.

OMG. Is that really the cover?

Have you run 5e in actual play? If so, tell us more about that. Were any of your players new to Vampire?

Also, how self-contained is the core book? AKA, could you run a chronicle soup to nuts with just the one book?

What are the mechanical issues you've seen in actual play? Any setting choices cause confusion/dislike among the players?

I'm sort of conflicted on it.

On the one hand, I wouldn't mind trying out the new mechanics. Heck, if I had the corebook alone, I could just invoke Rule Zero, get rid of the sucky metaplot and run a V1 game with V5 mechanics.

On the other hand, the continuation of the Revised metaplot is something I generally am opposed to, so I don't know if I should spend my money on this when I already have V1 and V20.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1063524OMG. Is that really the cover?

Have you run 5e in actual play? If so, tell us more about that. Were any of your players new to Vampire?

Also, how self-contained is the core book? AKA, could you run a chronicle soup to nuts with just the one book?

What are the mechanical issues you've seen in actual play? Any setting choices cause confusion/dislike among the players?

1. Yes it is.

2. It's very much like 1st Edition: I have been running a couple of months of regular V5 gameplay set in my own version of Chicago by Night 2018. The player characters were in a collapsed building and thus were in torpor for five years and missed all the changes from the Second Inquisition, Beckoning, and the sudden changes to the sects. All of the players were fairly experienced V:TM gamers and it was the premise of the setting being upended which got them to want to come back. The idea was Chicago was one of the few "safe" cities for vampires and it was suffering a massive population boom due to all the vampires coming in from other parts of America (to often tragic results).

3. It's not going for "everything in the sourcebook" but it contains the 7 main clans of the Camarilla and Anarchs with the Brujah, Gangrel, Ventrue, Malkavians, Nosferatu, Tremere (who have undergone the biggest change), Ventrue, and Toreador. The Lasombra, Tzimisce, and Independent Clans are missing but they do include the Thin Bloods and Caitiff. It also contains all the stats for typical enemies you'll encounter so I'd say it's very good for running a city-based game, not so much if you want to have them fight Assamites or the Sabbat.

4.  Cons: Long time gamers were a bit put off with the fact Disciplines are a good deal more complicated now in that you can basically choose multiple versions of each level of Discipline and combine them into powers. Someone at my table described it as combining Disciplines with Mage: The Ascension rotes. They liked the simplicity of "Dominate 3, you can erase people's memories" whereas now Dominate 3 is six different powers to choose from, including what was formerly known as Dementation. There was also a question how the hell Herds worked since there's now a big huge focus on them and they come with special abilities. Merging Merits and Flaws with Backgrounds also confused people and felt like an unnecessary change to them.

Pros: The players really like Touchstones and Convictions replacing Nature and Demeanor along with a loss of Appearance. Now everyone can just be as hot as they want with maybe a bonus if you're really hot as a Merit. There's also been a lot of good talk about how Willpower is more useful now as well as making sense. People generally are liking the fact that there's no points above 6 now as it means that player characters can take on Elders and ancients much easier now. Blood Potency (from Requiem) is liked even though it's alongside generation now. Everyone LOVES the changes to feeding and that if you're above 10th generation, you can't drink animal blood.

5. So far, the players LOVE the setting changes and think the whole idea of vampire hunters being a major danger to vampires to the point of people fearing extermination is great. The fact the Anarchs have gone from being the "loyal opposition" to, "people who are going to murder the Prince and take over the city" have also been well-received. They've basically reclaimed a lot of the ground they lost to the Sabbat and are no longer jokes. The Beckoning was badly described but the later books clarified it's just the Methuselah who have disappeared.

Really, now player character Ancilla and Neonates feel like they're major players in the setting.

This is my CHEAT SHEET which explained to a friend my experience with V5:

 I think this will be very helpful for players and STs. It's stuff I've found out/used from my currently on-going Chicago game.

=====

How do you play V5

I strongly suggest you try and search the internet for a PDF of Rusted Veins because I think a big part of the problem in the main book is the fact Rusted Veins wasn't included within the chronicle and you don't actually get a sense of HOW the game is supposed to be run unless you either read it or listen to the Gentleman Gamer's 7 video series on how the universe has changed.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgP8QN-kHS0
Part 2: https://youtu.be/G4_HOn8mmNM
Part 3: https://youtu.be/xql-QOdKMT8
Part 4: https://youtu.be/YmCiqv-T9M0
Part 5: https://youtu.be/8wtIMlxcomM
Part 6: https://youtu.be/_p0jC-RMel4
Part 7: https://youtu.be/6KmaK_IbjcQ

Honestly, you shouldn't have to have 7 vlogs to understand things or an adventure model but I think the problem isn't that new gamers can't understand V5. It's that OLD GAMERS have difficulty understanding what is different versus what is the same. A lot of gamers think all elders are dead/beckoned, that no vampire can actually meet with other vampires, and other crazy stuff they get from exaggerating the idea.

Rusted Veins and the videos above depict a "back to basics" sort of universe that the metaplot is trying to encourage you to of:

1. Anarchs vs. Camarilla
2. Older vampires vs. new ones
3. Trying to keep ties with your human life or humans you care about
4. trying to avoid people spotting you as a vampire

What Rusted Veins tells us about 5E

If you can't track down Rusted Veins, the premise is actually really simple. Your player characters are a coterie of vampires who live in Gary and have been embraced there. An old contact of them is involved in organized crime (of the shitty low paying kind) and tells them about a hugely profitable drug deal that's about to take place. Either because they're nervous, they're snitching, or they want to share the good news.

Well, this being Gary, the whole deal goes South and the cops of Gary steal the drugs and the money because they want to make a shit ton of money for themselves--because it's the World of Darkness. It's only the players who discover how much of a shistorm this has caused because the drugs belonged to Modius who has been reduced to drug dealing to maintain his *airquotes* "lavish" lifestyle. The book even nicely states Modius is shit at this and giving way too a good a selection of drugs for the price he's asking.

Modius wants to kill every mortal involved in this clusterfuck, including the PC's friend and the cops (which will draw heavy heat because killing a bunch of cops even in Gary is the kind of thing that gets noticed by the Second Inquisition).

Juggler and Sullivan Dane are side characters with the former wanting the money and drugs himself (which he can sell at a much-much better price than Modius) while being willing to split it with the PCs--he's just mostly interested in sticking it to the Prince now.

Sullivan Dane is an old man now but still spry enough to want to save a bunch of humans from an insane old elder. The book states Sullivan is fully prepared to substitute himself to be killed by Modius for the PC's friend, reminding us that while many religious people are hypocrites in the WOD--SD walks the walk. Also, it will kill Modius since his blood is like holy acid to Kindred.

Then the Primogen of Chicago arrive because this has turned into an epic clusterfuck. This allows the PCs to make a good first impression.

It's a VERY first edition and frankly awesome module that should have been included with the main book like Baptism by Fire.

Things to remember when using V5

When I use the "new" rules for 1st Edition style games, I told all of my players to basically forget the specifics and focus on the themes--which are not that difficult to remember or implement.

Here's steps 1-10 for that.

1. Have your players tell you, in detail, how your characters feed. Incentivize it with the fact they will get a bonus to skills and maybe an attribute or even discipline depending on how interesting it is. We're all adults here and a few extra points here and there is not a gamebreaker. Do you mug people, seduce them, presence them, or run an elaborate scam about New Age blood treatments?

2. Tell your player characters that if they kill someone with the Kiss, they don't have to roll for Hunger frenzies for the rest of the night. It's a small detail but it's something that highlights the terrible temptation to finish off your enemies via feeding.

3. Tell the player characters to mark something on their sheet that your character actually believes in. Like, "overthrow the Prince", "protect blacks from my neighborhood against corrupt cops and white developers", or "make sure my mom is cared for despite the fact I'm dead and she's demented."

Tell them this will help their humanity or degeneration depending on it.

4. Ask the players to have one mortal who means something to them. It doesn't have to be a GOOD relationship and I encourage it to be fucked up in some way. I use Heather Poe as an example. Your hot ghoul girlfriend who you have wanted to protect and love but you've kind of, well, made her your sex slave.

Other examples being:

* The aforementioned demented mother who is your last tie to your old life and WILL die soon.
* Your mortal brother and/or his kids.
* Dave your old war buddy who is also your ghoul but almost an equal because he still has enough of a willpower score not to be Renfield and even occasionally talk back.
* A child prodigy who you finance through art school because you, kinda, sorta, killed her parents.

5. Tell the player characters the Kindred world is still largely mysterious to them. If they have Occult, they have HEARD of the Banu Haqim, Giovanni, and Ministry of Set but note it's pretty rare for them to be encountered. Also, the Sabbat has been oft kilter for like a decade so if you're a new vampire then they're more like ISIS terrorists at best (heard of but rarely encountered) or the boogeyman everyone older than you remembers.

I.e. very much like Chicago 1st Edition where there's all manner of horrifying and terrible secrets but none of the indie clans. The Sabbat are the 0 Humanity but still apparently functional psychopaths out to save everyone.

A couple of other setting points:

6. Thin Bloods are a much bigger deal in 5th Edition than they are in 1st Edition and provide, essentially, a bunch of people lower on the totem pole than the PCs. PCs are meant to be 12th and 13th generation nobodies in the original 1st Edition so, "the lowest of the low" but this gives them someone to feel protective of since they're Queen of the Damned Lestat compared to these guys. I recommend letting the PCs know a couple or even consider being one as the rules are there and well designed.

7. The changes of feeding mean that roughly this is the case:

8th and 9th generation vampires can't feed on animal blood or blood bags. They need a herd and to feed directly from the tap.
10th generation I'm iffy on.

11th, 12th, and 13th can drink animal blood and blood bags as a substitute.

This is a big change as it gives a cost to being a vampire of higher stronger power and gives a mechanical incentive to being a shitty 13th generation. Animalism, which allows lower generations to feed on animals now, also becomes a MUCH MUCH more important skill if you're going to play a Friendly Neighborhood Vampire.

8. Disciplines are more weird and flexible but honestly I don't see much difference. The biggest changes are with Animalism as mentioned.

9. Hunger mechanics basically work on the idea of, "you need to feed every night if you want to avoid being dangerous to people." It's not going to actually affect your characters much if they don't want it to. State you have a regular supply of blood (see above) and show how but if you don't want it to be steady, it can be a souce of adventures. In simple terms, Herds are much more important in this world.

Either that or you pony up, buy Animalism, and play a Higher generation vampire in which case it's then exactly like 2nd edition of "I summon a swarm of rats, eat, and be done. Now, where's the adventure?"

But if you don't want to do that, you can always open an adventure with, "You haven't fed in three nights and are a ticking time bomb."

10. For experienced players who do want to play things like the Beckoning and/Or Second Edition I tell them:

"The Elders are still there but there's a bunch of missing seats at the table that have gotten more noticeable in the past couple of years. It really effects the Elders more than it does you because you only know one less older than dirt asshole is making your day harder, well more like 3 (out of 20), but every one of those remaining Elders knows someone that has died or gone missing. The ones that died are less disconcerting than the fact Sirrus, the obnoxious Ventrue Primogen, bought an M4 off your buddy Lenny and a sword off the internet (did he even know how to use a computer?) to go fight in the Crusades. Malkavian prank? Maybe, but it's not a funny one since he's bought a freighter ticket to Syria. Now all the newspapers in the city are reporting the occult crimes they used to cover up."

"It's only recently occurred that people YOU know, like Dave the Kindred gas station attendant, have started to go missing. Dave got arrested by the police who somehow subdued a 10th generation Brujah and no one can find out what happened to him. Probably because he was left in a room with a sunny view. Now you have to wonder, are the cops outside the club in the know? If they are, do they know what you are? Are you safe in your haven? Probably. No one is reporting vampires in the nightly news so maybe it's just some elders blowing smoke or maybe this is the end. Either way, you still need to feed and the gorgeous girl across the nightclub has been eyeing you all night. She's probably not a plant."

It's not something that has affected everyone except the Tremere personally but is a source of paranoia and fear.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1063527I'm sort of conflicted on it.

On the one hand, I wouldn't mind trying out the new mechanics. Heck, if I had the corebook alone, I could just invoke Rule Zero, get rid of the sucky metaplot and run a V1 game with V5 mechanics.

On the other hand, the continuation of the Revised metaplot is something I generally am opposed to, so I don't know if I should spend my money on this when I already have V1 and V20.

They've kind of royally backed from Revised, haven't they?

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063544They've kind of royally backed from Revised, haven't they?

Maybe, but I never liked the metaplot.

I prefer my Gangrel in the Camarilla and the Ravnos as a full clan.

Though once finances improve for me, I may buy V5.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063541People generally are liking the fact that there's no points above 6 now as it means that player characters can take on Elders and ancients much easier now.

Not sure I particularly like this myself. Elders and Ancients shouldn't be easy to deal with at all.

Also, this doesn't sound like it bodes well for the next edition of Werewolf and the enhanced stats from changing forms.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1063545Maybe, but I never liked the metaplot.

I prefer my Gangrel in the Camarilla and the Ravnos as a full clan.

Though once finances improve for me, I may buy V5.

Well, the Gangrel are now part of the Anarchs according to the Gangrel and Anarchs. The Brujah also were driven from the Camarilla except for the Loyalists.

So the Anarchs are Gangrel, Brujah, and the Ministry (Followers of Set).

The Camarilla really fucked up getting rid of everyone who can actually fight worth a damn.

Quote from: Orphan81;1063553Not sure I particularly like this myself. Elders and Ancients shouldn't be easy to deal with at all.

Also, this doesn't sound like it bodes well for the next edition of Werewolf and the enhanced stats from changing forms.

I think they've more or less stated that they're going to nerf Rage so that vampires and werewolves will be able to fight.

So werewolves will have enhanced strength but that won't be that much different than Potence.

Rage will bonus dice to hit rather than extra actions.

FYI, here's how character sheets work now for CHICAGO BY NIGHT and other sourcebooks:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/chicago-by-night-for-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-ed/posts/2333196

Anita Wainwright  

Epitaph: Anarch Intelligence Exchange
Quote: "I know you have this misconception that all Anarchs are mindless thugs. I'm here to convince you otherwise."
Clan: Brujah  

Mortal Days: Natural Rebel  

Anita Wainwright has been fighting The Man since the 1950s, when she was a student at the University of Illinois. She took several Freedom Rides with mixed-race groups on public buses to Alabama, challenging the non-enforcement of illegal bus segregation laid down by Morgan v. Virginia. She joined up with the Diggers in New York City and ran a Free Store in Chicago, writing for a local underground newspaper, the Chicago Seed. Throughout her young adult life, she flitted from cause to cause, passionately believing in revolution through communal deeds -- that helping the common man would leave to the overthrow of the rich and powerful.  

During her time as a reporter for the Seed, she met a Black Panther named Theodore Dooley. She quickly struck up an intimate relationship with him. The relationship was the final straw for her conservative parents, who disowned her over her refusal to stop seeing Dooley. Spurred by the fight with her parents, she threw herself more fiercely into her activism, which was subtly encouraged by Dooley.  

Anita was one of the organizers who helped plan the Vietnam War protests at the Chicago Democratic National Convention in 1968. Police were sent to break up the protests, and Anita lost Dooley in the crowd before she was badly beaten by an officer.

After she recovered, she went looking for Dooley to find out what happened to him. After several days and nights of searching, she eventually found him in the basement of the building acting as the headquarters for the Black Panthers. She stumbled across him drinking the blood of the cop that had beaten her in the protest. At first, she was horrified, but she quickly accepted the situation, even before Dooley had a chance to explain. She saw the act not just as a literal thirst for blood, but a metaphorical one. She was angry and wanted vengeance. They spent a few nights together, and by the end of it, Anita convinced Dooley to Embrace her.  

Kindred Nights: At the Cusp  

At first, Anita used her new-found Kindred strength to dive more fully into the concerns of the human world. But as the '70s came and went, her involvement in mortal society waned, as she and Dooley turned their attentions to the reformation of Kindred society instead. Her passion for change, and propensity for bloodthirsty revenge, hasn't diminished one iota, however, and she is one of the few Anarchs in Chicago to develop connections all over the country. "Think locally, act globally," she would often say, as she would spend countless nights making phone calls, writing letters, and even risking dangerous travel to meet with potential allies in her cause.  

By the '90s, Camarilla control over Chicago was stronger than ever, and she was considering moving to one of the Anarch Free States in California. That's when the Lupines attacked, slaughtering many of the local Kindred. She barely managed to avoid the claws of the werewolves herself, but many of her friends were not so lucky -- including her sire and lover, Dooley. Her need for revenge intensified, and she swore to find and destroy the Lupines who killed her friends.  

Anita stayed in Chicago and carefully planned her next steps. She spent years accumulating information about her foes. Her network of connections increased, as she became less discerning about the allegiance of her Kindred contacts. Anarchs, independents, and even moderately-high-ranking members of the sects traded correspondence and cell phone calls with her, all to accumulate whatever knowledge she could about the Chicago Lupines.  

Indeed, it was Anita who received the first rumors about the Lasombra coming to Chicago. She attempted to trade this information to some of her local Camarilla contacts in exchange for the whereabouts of the werewolves (or their descendants), but by the time they came to trust her offer, the Prince announced the arrival of the Lasombra "delegates" to the whole court. Her information was useless, but many of her more reluctant contacts recognized the quality of her information network. Marc Levesque has also quietly joined her, helping to maintain her network while plotting his own revenge against the Kindred of Chicago.  

Plots and Schemes:  

• Solid Ground: Now Anita has moved from "occasionally useful" to "extremely useful" in the eyes of many powerful Kindred on all sides, she wants to tread carefully and reinforce her power base before she makes any big moves.  

• Doubtful Connection: One of her Camarilla contacts is Critias. His well-known sexism worked against Anita for decades, and even though they shared a clan, she saw him as the embodiment of the patriarchal system that held her and her friends down. With the Entelechy School, she sees the potential value the elder brings to the city. Anita isn't sure if she wants to suck up to the elder (and maybe convince him to join the Anarchs), or arrange to have him killed. She doesn't know about the Eternal Academy or what happens to its failed fledgling students yet.  

• Dark Past: Anita is still extremely well-connected. She has links to Brujah and Anarchs all over the United States, and she's willing to get anyone in touch with anyone, as long as she trusts them and considers their cause to be worthwhile. She's aware that her list of contacts is valuable, which is why she doesn't disclose it to anyone. No Camarilla Kindred wants to have it known they've collaborated with an Anarch, so the implicit blackmail keeps her safe.  

• Wolf Hunt: She hasn't lost sight of her true goal: finding the werewolves who killed her friends. She recognizes some of them may be dead after 25 years of looking, so she'd be happy with vengeance against their families or loved ones at this point. She would do almost anything for concrete, first-hand information on how to kill werewolves, or where her enemies live right now.  

Domain and Haven:  

• Riverdale Community (Contacts 3, Haven 2, Herd 3, Influence 2, Resources 1) Riverdale is one of the areas allotted to the Brujah as feeding ground, back when Ventrue Princes were trying to shaft the clan. Today it's still an area where crime is too high and the average wage is too low. Anita has quietly claimed it for the Anarch cause, and no one has contested her because very few Kindred actually want it.  

• Riverdale Communal Homestead (Allies 4, Contacts 3, Haven 3) Anita lives in a house that looks condemned, but she has renovated the insides to be quite comfortable, modern, and secure. Several Anarchs use the building as crash space -- most notably Marc Levesque, her informal enforcer.  

Thralls and Tools:  

• Francis (Retainers 3) When she started her plans of revenge against the Lupines, she created a ghoul -- a young black man named Francis that reminded her of Dooley -- to help her with tasks not requiring her direct attention. Now she's more secure, she plans to Embrace Francis. Problem is, she either needs to get Camarilla permission for the Embrace (thus reducing her standing in the eyes of the Anarchs) or flaunt the Traditions for her own gain (thus reducing her utility in the eyes of her Camarilla contacts, and risking banishment or destruction). She's currently debating Embracing Francis and blaming one of her rivals for "poaching" him.

• Nation of Islam (Allies 3, Contacts 3, Herd 3) Anita hides behind mortal protest groups and foundations for the disenfranchised citizens of Chicago and Gary. She's genuinely respected among the Chicago wing of the Nation of Islam, despite her outsider status, and often relies on them for favors such as protecting her haven and tracking her enemies.

Kindred Relationships:

• Gérard (Problematic) Marc Levesque is her biggest supporter, and her biggest problem. He is passionately devoted to the Anarchs in general and to her specifically. He is also passionately devoted to kicking the shit out of Balthazar. Balthazar hasn't exactly made a lot of friends within the Camarilla, but he is still part of the Ivory Tower, so the optics of a hardcore Anarch killing a hardcore Camarilla Kindred just don't work for her. At the same time, she knows she can only put Gérard off of his murderous plans for so long.

• Critias (Work in Progress) Anita is developing a business relationship with Critias, the Brujah Primogen. Recently he's started to display both more rebellious tendencies and a fervent desire to actually help the mortals in Chicago. The big problem is that he doesn't seem to trust her because she's a woman, which rouses her feminist instincts. They perform a careful dance to not set each other off, because both see the value in collaboration.

• Rosa Hernandez (Potential) Both women despise werewolves, Anita because they took her love away, Rosa because she feels betrayed by the savagery of their nature. Anita feels the two could form an effective coterie of Lupine hunters, if only she could convince the Gangrel to join the Anarchs.

Whispers:

• National Network: Anita is the Anarchs' information hub. If you want any Anarch in the United States to know something, you only have to tell her.

• Big Game: Anita is a fearsome werewolf hunter, with over a dozen pelts hanging on her wall.

• The Little Things: Anita is such a hardcore Chicagoan that she has four stars tattooed on her back.

• Brujah Blood: Anita and Marc Levesque are lovers.

Mask and Mien:

 • Anita is a Caucasian female of moderate size. She stands 5'8" tall, and weighs 125 pounds. She has auburn hair, and dresses casually in modern styles, although she tends towards a "retro" look that seems to cycle back into fashion from time to time.

• She has a carefully cultivated appearance. Her dress, demeanor, and speech patterns are carefully calibrated to give off the vibe of "young brash Brujah," but she knows what she's doing. She can dial her revolutionary rhetoric up or down at a moment's notice to suit her audience.

• Anita uses the identity of Patricia Dooley as her Mask, the widow of the deceased Theodore Dooley. Patricia is a private woman who occasionally handles charity work at the city's children centers, her stand-offish behavior enough to prevent most deep questions (Mask 1).

Sire: Theodore Dooley
Embraced: 1968 (Born 1941)
Ambition: Eradicate the Lupines who killed my friends
Convictions: Protect my memory of Dooley
Touchstones: Francis -- the ghoul who reminders her of Dooley
Humanity: 8
Generation: 12th
Blood Potency: 2

Attributes: Strength 3, Dexterity 4, Stamina 5; Charisma 4, Manipulation 3, Composure 3; Intelligence 4, Wits 4, Resolve 5

Secondary Attributes: Health 8, Willpower 8

Skills: Athletics 3, Firearms 1, Melee 2, Larceny (Breaking In) 3, Stealth 2; Animal Ken 2, Etiquette 1, Insight 3, Intimidation (Silent Treatment) 1, Persuasion 4; Academics 2, Investigation 2, Medicine 2, Occult (Lupines) 2, Politics (Anarchs) 3, Technology 2

Disciplines: Celerity 3, Fortitude 1, Potence 1, Presence 2

Wow, this is more and more shaping up towards making me want to stick with the 20th anniversary edition rather than 5th edition.

Every change to the Masquerade setting just sounds worse and worse.... and the rules changes aren't helping at all either.... Masquerade Vampires should NOT be on par with Apocalypse Werewolves...That was the whole point of why Kindred were terrified of the wilderness, because Lupines would mess you up.

The criticisms I hear of 5th edition just aping Requiem are sounding more and more accurate.

Quote from: Orphan81;1063557Wow, this is more and more shaping up towards making me want to stick with the 20th anniversary edition rather than 5th edition.

Every change to the Masquerade setting just sounds worse and worse.... and the rules changes aren't helping at all either.... Masquerade Vampires should NOT be on par with Apocalypse Werewolves...That was the whole point of why Kindred were terrified of the wilderness, because Lupines would mess you up.

The criticisms I hear of 5th edition just aping Requiem are sounding more and more accurate.

Well this is what I've heard and I don't know anything about Werewolf: The Apocalypse 5E if such a beast will exist (or won't).

I am interested in hearing what your criticisms are. I read another thread and bluntly, it was clear they didn't understand the rules as they were complaining about stuff which was in the original game.

A few in my circles bought the book and were hashing it out in detail. Afterwards I am still not interested, especially because of the changes. I still have my VtM 1e (and some mixed edition splats), which I think of as an easier and more familiar chassis with which to tinker.

There is no 'there' there for me. :)

Man that game seems really complicated. I'd love to play it because I like modern gothic horror as a setting but the game seems very complex.

Quote from: Lurtch;1063574Man that game seems really complicated. I'd love to play it because I like modern gothic horror as a setting but the game seems very complex.

I felt it was simpler everywhere but Disciplines.

I'm curious to hear more about the state of the current Camarilla, because I always favored the Camarilla the most. Unfortunately, I also always thought that the Camarilla should have been more diverse, with more Clans present than in the canon. It looks like they moved in the opposite direction though by removing Clans. They seem to be including the Assamites now, which are ironically the one Clan which I think is the most inappropriate to join the Camarilla. These aren't absolute deal breakers for me and I can always change fluff that I don't like, but if there are too many things like that, I wonder if it is worth it at all.

That said, it was probably a good idea to change the setting in bold ways. It is a gamble, but the 5th edition has to distinguish itself somehow from V20 else no one will shell out the money for it.

I like the idea of making vampires and werewolves more of a match in combat, though that is just speculation on something that is off topic anyway. I'm not even really a big fan of crossovers.

One major concern of mine in buying V:tM now is political, so I want to avoid going into too much detail in this thread about the game itself, but some of the political baggage in the game along with the developers' reactions to certain issues have really rubbed me the wrong way and I increasingly feel obligated to withhold my money from companies who further agendas that I believe are harmful to society. So the substance of the game is going to have to really excite me to overcome this.

That said, I do want to hear more about the new Camarilla, maybe something can catch my imagination and spark my interest.

The Camarilla can be found out now because they released the 5th EditionThe Anarchs andThe Camarilla yesterday.

https://www.modiphius.net/collections/vampire-the-masquerade

The Anarchs are very different but interesting.

Interested in seeing how they've changed the Camarilla.

QuoteI'm curious to hear more about the state of the current Camarilla, because I always favored the Camarilla the most. Unfortunately, I also always thought that the Camarilla should have been more diverse, with more Clans present than in the canon. It looks like they moved in the opposite direction though by removing Clans. They seem to be including the Assamites now, which are ironically the one Clan which I think is the most inappropriate to join the Camarilla. These aren't absolute deal breakers for me and I can always change fluff that I don't like, but if there are too many things like that, I wonder if it is worth it at all.

The Assamites are now known as the Banu Haqim and basically they're going with the Schism from the metaplot with the Viziers and Sorcerers having joined the Camarilla. The Banu Haqim in Chicago by Night are a 50-something super-rich Iranian socialite art patron and her drug dealing progeny who wants to escape being her slave.
Honestly, I have the conspiracy theory the Assamites are being destroyed as an old concept because of Assassins Creed having made the concept untentable.

QuoteOne major concern of mine in buying V:tM now is political, so I want to avoid going into too much detail in this thread about the game itself, but some of the political baggage in the game along with the developers' reactions to certain issues have really rubbed me the wrong way and I increasingly feel obligated to withhold my money from companies who further agendas that I believe are harmful to society. So the substance of the game is going to have to really excite me to overcome this.

That said, I do want to hear more about the new Camarilla, maybe something can catch my imagination and spark my interest.

The Anarchs more or less spells out the politics of Vampire: The Masquerade and it's more or less unchanged from the 90s. The Brujah are deeply involved in counter-culture movements, whatever they are, so there's Brujah Antifa fighting Brujah Neo-Nazis when they're not actively trying to kill the Camarilla which only exists to protect its privileges yet is surprisingly non-racist or sexist (perhaps because Helena can force you to eat your own fingers if you make a sexist response).

They have doubled down on the "Punk" feel, though, that the system is irrepairably broken and there's a certain level of nihilism involved for vampires.

Given vampire is the first game to have black, gay, and transgender characters when other settings were at the time lily-white and straight--I'm willing to cut V:TM a lot of slack--particularly since the developers are romancing that time of "fight the establishment."

The Chicago by Night characters also continue the diversity of past editions with some changes (the Prince and Sheriff are now black).

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063576I felt it was simpler everywhere but Disciplines.

Just the way people talk about it. Maybe it's just the verbiage they use but the game sounds way more complicated than D&D or BRP or anything

If I were to buy V5, I would invoke Rule Zero and get rid of the setting changes because none of them sound appealing to me at all.

In my games, the setting changes in Revised and V5 never happened and never will happen, except possibly the Second Inquisition and even that would be modified somewhat.

Gangrel and Brujah are still in the Camarilla, the Setites and Assamites are still Independent, and the Ravnos are still a full clan.

Fuck the metaplot and all that other supernatural wangst bullshit.

As for the whole Gothic-Punk stuff, I would also excise those elements because to be honest, I utterly detest the Punk subculture and its myriad offshoots.

My vision of VTM would be like V1 in terms of setting, but less Punk and more Anime-influenced with influences from Gothic fiction as well.

It would still be Gothic in the literary sense but not Goth in the subculture sense.

More like Edgar Allan Poe and Lord Byron, and less like Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative.

I love invoking Rule Zero to make Vampire a much more palatable game.

It would have a lot more trenchcoats, political intrigue, and katanas, and a lot less supernatural wangst, metaplot nonsense, and other pretentious punk rock bullshit.

Quote from: Lurtch;1063638Just the way people talk about it. Maybe it's just the verbiage they use but the game sounds way more complicated than D&D or BRP or anything

I'd argue V5 is basically 90% focused on narrative and characterization with the rules almost an afterthought to it. Most of the changes exist to make rolls less and less important.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1063679If I were to buy V5, I would invoke Rule Zero and get rid of the setting changes because none of them sound appealing to me at all.

In my games, the setting changes in Revised and V5 never happened and never will happen, except possibly the Second Inquisition and even that would be modified somewhat.

Gangrel and Brujah are still in the Camarilla, the Setites and Assamites are still Independent, and the Ravnos are still a full clan.

Fuck the metaplot and all that other supernatural wangst bullshit.

As for the whole Gothic-Punk stuff, I would also excise those elements because to be honest, I utterly detest the Punk subculture and its myriad offshoots.

My vision of VTM would be like V1 in terms of setting, but less Punk and more Anime-influenced with influences from Gothic fiction as well.

It would still be Gothic in the literary sense but not Goth in the subculture sense.

More like Edgar Allan Poe and Lord Byron, and less like Sisters of Mercy and Type O Negative.

I love invoking Rule Zero to make Vampire a much more palatable game.

It would have a lot more trenchcoats, political intrigue, and katanas, and a lot less supernatural wangst, metaplot nonsense, and other pretentious punk rock bullshit.

The people who benefited most in-universe from the changes from the metaplot are the Brujah and Gangrel basically. In previous editions, the Ventrue basically bully them and treat them like crap while the Anarchs did nothing. In the Anarchs, basically, they talk about how the Brujah and Gangrel are nobodies whipping boys and lashed out as a result. So now the Anarchs no longer are a joke and are an actual city-holding bunch of territories. I hated the Gangrel leaving before but the idea they formed their own sect with blackjack and hookers? Good for them.

I admit, it seems right to divide the Camarilla down between the 99% and the 1% with the Camarilla being the rich vampires.

One of the things that disappointed me about V5 was its replacement of Humanity with an 'every group makes their own Path' mechanic.

I loved the Humanity mechanic from 1e before Paths. It helped implement the Personal Horror theme. In order to survive as you, you need to retain your Humanity, but, in order to survive, many of the choices you're faced with will threaten your Humanity. It was a great innovation in 1e. Mechanics like this help lesser GMs like me do stuff that Tenebones and other great GM's can do effortlessly in game.

However, players wanted to play unrepentant monsters so they introduced Paths, which let you do terrible things as long as you didn't do a series of things you couldn't talk your way around or wouldn't do anyway. I'm not kidding some of the sins in the paths were stuff like "Not trying hard enough in a combat."

For V5, Ken explained in an interview that V5 was about you playing a monster, which is why the removed Humanity. Now, each group just makes up stuff, with example sins (that's not what they're called anymore) like "don't betray anyone in your gang," so its like Paths dialed up to 11.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1063715One of the things that disappointed me about V5 was its replacement of Humanity with an 'every group makes their own Path' mechanic.

I loved the Humanity mechanic from 1e before Paths. It helped implement the Personal Horror theme. In order to survive as you, you need to retain your Humanity, but, in order to survive, many of the choices you're faced with will threaten your Humanity. It was a great innovation in 1e. Mechanics like this help lesser GMs like me do stuff that Tenebones and other great GM's can do effortlessly in game.

However, players wanted to play unrepentant monsters so they introduced Paths, which let you do terrible things as long as you didn't do a series of things you couldn't talk your way around or wouldn't do anyway. I'm not kidding some of the sins in the paths were stuff like "Not trying hard enough in a combat."

For V5, Ken explained in an interview that V5 was about you playing a monster, which is why the removed Humanity. Now, each group just makes up stuff, with example sins (that's not what they're called anymore) like "don't betray anyone in your gang," so its like Paths dialed up to 11.

I think someone was screwing with you.

Humanity still exists.

But is Humanity the same in 5e as in 1e?

Honestly, once they created Paths of Enlightenment, they should have just ditched the entire Humanity/morality system in exchange for using role playing. The idea that vampires have to maintain a certain level of morality to keep from losing control is kind of interesting, but it becomes ridiculous when you throw them in these bizarre random religions that let you ignore Humanity entirely as long as you study death or whatever.

It's pretty much the same but you get bonuses related to your Touchstones and goals.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1064016Honestly, once they created Paths of Enlightenment, they should have just ditched the entire Humanity/morality system in exchange for using role playing. The idea that vampires have to maintain a certain level of morality to keep from losing control is kind of interesting, but it becomes ridiculous when you throw them in these bizarre random religions that let you ignore Humanity entirely as long as you study death or whatever.

I've had a lot of fun with Paths of Enlightenment but in my games I eventually said the Sabbat's paths are complete bullshit like a certain religion written by a sci-fi wwriter. As such, they BARELY keep the Beast at bay and all Sabbat are half-insane and doomed to live lives as shells of their former selves.

I save the really ALIEN but actually viable teachings of vampires for Roads practiced by Elders as well as secret secret sects.

The Sabbat are a bunch of insane zealots who don't understand their own religion.

Okay, here's what I meant about them doubling down on Paths for everyone.

You have Humanity. In 1e it's beauty was that it was a list of things you might need to do to survive and thrive, so it presented a terrific (for its time) mechanic. Then came Paths.

In 5e, you have Humanity, and you loose it by violating Convictions and Chronicle Tenents. These are wholly made up by the players. Yes the GM can veto them, but welcome to the world of "having to argue with your players".

To be honest, the Humanity mechanic was a mistake to begin with.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1064050To be honest, the Humanity mechanic was a mistake to begin with.

I think it's the best idea if you actually want player characters not to be unrepentant murderers and action stars but guys trying not to kill people.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064071I think it's the best idea if you actually want player characters not to be unrepentant murderers and action stars but guys trying not to kill people.

Point conceded there.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064071I think it's the best idea if you actually want player characters not to be unrepentant murderers and action stars but guys trying not to kill people.

Players could, you know, actually role play their characters. Some of the most in depth morality related role playing that I've ever seen has been in games with no morality of alignment mechanics. Once Paths we're introduced, it was essentially an acknowledgement that Humanity didn't work, so why pretend after that point? It just created this ridiculous misperception that the Camarilla was supposed to be the Humanity Sect.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1064099Players could, you know, actually role play their characters. Some of the most in depth morality related role playing that I've ever seen has been in games with no morality of alignment mechanics. Once Paths we're introduced, it was essentially an acknowledgement that Humanity didn't work, so why pretend after that point? It just created this ridiculous misperception that the Camarilla was supposed to be the Humanity Sect.

I find that argument not to work given the Paths make you automatically complete scum and barely human. Justin Achilli did a good job making it so only a crazy serial killer would want to follow one.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064101I find that argument not to work given the Paths make you automatically complete scum and barely human. Justin Achilli did a good job making it so only a crazy serial killer would want to follow one.

If that is what it's like, then why bother? Just give Sabbat vampires low Humanity. Besides, Paths aren't necessarily like that at all, they allow self control much of the time. Their morality really doesn't make any sense.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1064104If that is what it's like, then why bother? Just give Sabbat vampires low Humanity. Besides, Paths aren't necessarily like that at all, they allow self control much of the time. Their morality really doesn't make any sense.

That's pretty much Justin Achilli said. He said that only about 1 in 100 Sabbat have the strength of will to have a Path and you have to be a combination, genius, scholar, and more to make the transition.

This is the description I made for a friend. Anything I should add?
====

Basically, it's a direct-ish return to VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE with it being set after V20 and Revised which are retconned into 3rd and 4th Edition of the setting respectively. The metaplot is then explained as having continued from Revised to 5E with the supplement BECKETT'S JYHAD DIARY.

I'd say it's a hybrid of V:TR and V:TM with basically Masquerade's setting and V:TR's rules. They've also made a move to break up the Camarilla with the Brujah and Gangrel leaving it (plus being joined by a revised Followers of Set who have abandoned EVIL for polytheism). The Camarilla is now more like the Invictus with it being an exclusive vampire old boy's club and the Anarchs being a massive organization that's much more militant.

Humans Took a Level in Badass and took out the Tremere Inner Council along with what's implied to be several thousand other vampires (not small numbers with a population of 1000) including the entire undead population of London. The Second Inquisition is an alliance of the heads of the CIA, FBI, SIS, Mossad, and the Society of Leopold. They're keeping it under wraps but the Masquerade is barely holding and vampires, it turns out, can't deal with drone strikes.

Capping it all off, the Methuselahs of the Camarilla have all felt a mysterious call to the Middle East and have gone there along with elders close to that range (800 or so) which have resulted in a massive power vacuum in the sects. The entirety of the Sabbat has gone down there to fight them and their presumed Antediluvian masters--which means the Sabbat is temporarily out of commission as well.
Oh and now Attributes, Skills, and Disciplines are limited to 5.

As Chicago by Night's previews indicate with its Prince embraced in the 80s, the vampire world is now the oyster of any Kindred who wants to take it.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1064050To be honest, the Humanity mechanic was a mistake to begin with.

Humanity was the central point of the original game, of what Rein-Hagen imagined the game would be about.  Instead it turned into willing vampires in trenchcoats full of katanas and then Humanity just became a resource to manage.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1064804Humanity was the central point of the original game, of what Rein-Hagen imagined the game would be about.  Instead it turned into willing vampires in trenchcoats full of katanas and then Humanity just became a resource to manage.

I agree. The whole point of the game is to avoid vampires who are killing people and feeling nothing.

Sabbat style was meant to be an OPTION and people started making it default.

To be fair, Rein-Hagen's vision of the game was much more lame than the katana & trenchcoat thing.

I don't like V:tM as a game about vampires feeling angst over their declining humanity nor do I necessarily like trench coats and katanas, though I admit it's fun to kick butt once in a while in RPG's.

The kind of V:tM game I like is about political intrigues. Different vampires scheming against each other within the context of Clan rivalries and within the Clans too. The Godfather with fangs, with 7+ Clans instead of five families. Humanity can play a role in this sort of game, but more as a general guideline for how moral a character is, but not as a straight jacket that dominates a players options. In fact, speaking of The Godfather, Michael Corleone does go through a Humanity decline that adds an interesting aspect to the story, but he doesn't fall into a permanent frenzy after settles all family business.

So I think morality is better role played than governed by rolls and numbers. When even the game designers thenselves completely reject their own mechanic, which is what introducing Paths is for Humanity, then you know it's flawed.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064101I find that argument not to work given the Paths make you automatically complete scum and barely human. Justin Achilli did a good job making it so only a crazy serial killer would want to follow one.

I always felt taking a Path was the perfect example of a Vampire accepting their *lack* of humanity and embracing their condition. It implicitly makes them non-human. Calling them "crazy serial killers" is like calling a wolverine inhuman. I didn't allow players learn a Path willy-nilly - *especially* if they were non-Sabbat.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1065634I don't like V:tM as a game about vampires feeling angst over their declining humanity nor do I necessarily like trench coats and katanas, though I admit it's fun to kick butt once in a while in RPG's.

The kind of V:tM game I like is about political intrigues. Different vampires scheming against each other within the context of Clan rivalries and within the Clans too. The Godfather with fangs, with 7+ Clans instead of five families. Humanity can play a role in this sort of game, but more as a general guideline for how moral a character is, but not as a straight jacket that dominates a players options. In fact, speaking of The Godfather, Michael Corleone does go through a Humanity decline that adds an interesting aspect to the story, but he doesn't fall into a permanent frenzy after settles all family business.

So I think morality is better role played than governed by rolls and numbers. When even the game designers thenselves completely reject their own mechanic, which is what introducing Paths is for Humanity, then you know it's flawed.

I discussed this in the other V5 thread too. Long story short, Vampire is the wrong game. For pretty much anything people try to use it for. The rules are stuck in the 80s/90s rut that relegates anything other than character attributes and super powers to "roleplaying" and relies heavily on hitting players with a stick for playing the wrong way. Game design has come a long way since then.

If you want to have monster politics, Urban Shadows was written from the ground up to account for political dynamics.

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I was originally going to post this in the other thread, but it is just as relevant here.

Although I cannot consider playing the ST systems after being exposed to superior indie games (or really, after learning the meanings of very simple game design concepts like "syntactic magic", "exception-based" and "heartbreaker"), I can still provide constructive criticism of the ST rules (however pointless that may be). V5 opening up the disciplines with a non-linear structure makes this so much easier than all past editions. (I still dislike exception-based systems on principle because they get lost in the nitty-gritty of restricting creativity when the purpose of having rules is to arbitrate disputes.)

I would expand on what I said earlier about the clans being too similar due to being the same species with the same disciplines. Principally, the disciplines named in the core rules should be treated as guidelines rather than ironclad rules and every bloodline should have unique manifestations matching their intended aesthetic. (I'd prefer not to have specific discipline lists at all, but at that point I'm not critiquing the same system anymore.)

For example, the shadow vampires are traditionally given mind control which works the same for all bloodlines. I propose that instead their usage be subjected to different restrictions: they require shadow contact instead of eye contact, with all the drawbacks that implies. Basically, they turn their targets into shadow puppets in reverse and that is the only way they can use mind control.

Disciplines in general

For the purposes of reference I will use the following terminology: "discipline" refers to the general vampire superpower skills/trees (extrasensory perception, super speed, animal magnetism, etc), "art" refers to individual powers within a discipline (clairvoyance, merge with soil, summon someone from afar, etc), "devotion" refers to a combination of two or more arts (whether from the same discipline or not), and "threnody" refers to a ritual that uses a discipline (e.g. abyss mysticism). I won't cover the subject of "blood sorcery" here since that is a can of worms deserving its own discussion. Past editions included merits that provided supernatural powers, but I will be treating these as arts. I will be referring to disciplines generically because they often have different names across editions.

Alternate arts were introduced in various forms long before V5, such as Dark Ages: Vampire introducing a "lie detector" art for the "extrasensory perception" discipline and Requiem 1e allowing users of the "merge into soil" and "shapeshift into animals" arts to buy additional options with experience points.

Devotions and threnodies sit in a weird spot mechanically since they were introduced in earlier editions to get around the restriction that each discipline level only had one art attached to it. In V5 they don't make as much sense given that disciplines have an arbitrarily high number of arts per level. Most of the devotions and threnodies introduced over the years probably make more sense as arts under V5. That said I am sure you could reintroduce them in V5 with clearer intentions or different mechanical benefits if necessary.

The basic idea behind devotions is that they combine two arts into a single effect. This isn't necessarily the same as simply using those arts in tandem, so it makes sense to introduce devotions if this wouldn't be covered by a standard art.

Threnodies are more difficult to place. In concept they are supposed to resemble traditional ideas of magic, with ritual and tools and sacrifice whatnot. The exact details varied across editions, with them being absent in Masquerade aside from "abyss mysticism." Threnodies are conceptually iffy because 1) there needs to be a justification for using threnodies over arts, and 2) similar themes of ritualism have appeared for standard arts before. Off the top of my head, the Oberloch bloodline had a devotion to reanimate dead animals by sacrificing something of value, Requiem 2e arts sometimes involved marking a target with blood to create the desired effect, the Vedma bloodline has a signature discipline resembling magic without being blood sorcery proper, the "mither seria" discipline had an art which drew a magic rune on an object to cause disorientation in those who saw it.

Short of rewriting the discipline mechanics to provide clear guidelines for the division between ritual and non-ritual, the best I can think of to justify threnodies would be to treat them as an add-on to the standard arts like rotes are for mage spells. Casting or learning an art as a threnody which requires ritual casting or sacrifice or whatever might provide a mechanical benefit such as cheaper experience cost, lower prerequisites, bonuses to rolls, or some such.

Blood sorcery

I won't say much about blood sorcery here because it is a huge can of worms, but I think V5 made a huge mistake by not adopting a syntactic model like that featured in Ars Magica (which inspired similar mechanics like the mage's arcana/spheres/practices, spirit's influences, Requiem 2e's blood sorcery, etc). As a matter of fact I think the syntactic model should have been adopted for all disciplines, or at least been used to provide guidelines for how to structure and balance the powers. Exception-based mechanics are simply more trouble than they are worth if you aren't GURPS.

Conclusion

The disciplines are fundamentally broken as a mechanic because they are exception-based, as opposed to following a central set of rules and guidelines like syntactic magic systems and point buy systems do. Exception-based systems are more trouble than they are worth, especially when the writers lack encyclopedic knowledge of past editions, have only provincial and rudimentary understanding of game design in general (so all they can ever make are recursive heartbreakers), and lack a clear vision for the future of their product years down the line.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1065634I don't like V:tM as a game about vampires feeling angst over their declining humanity nor do I necessarily like trench coats and katanas, though I admit it's fun to kick butt once in a while in RPG's.

The kind of V:tM game I like is about political intrigues. Different vampires scheming against each other within the context of Clan rivalries and within the Clans too. The Godfather with fangs, with 7+ Clans instead of five families. Humanity can play a role in this sort of game, but more as a general guideline for how moral a character is, but not as a straight jacket that dominates a players options. In fact, speaking of The Godfather, Michael Corleone does go through a Humanity decline that adds an interesting aspect to the story, but he doesn't fall into a permanent frenzy after settles all family business.

So I think morality is better role played than governed by rolls and numbers. When even the game designers thenselves completely reject their own mechanic, which is what introducing Paths is for Humanity, then you know it's flawed.

Exactly! This is how I always played it. Humanity was there... but the thrust of the game for me was always the intrigue and power-plays within the setting we played.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1065634I don't like V:tM as a game about vampires feeling angst over their declining humanity nor do I necessarily like trench coats and katanas, though I admit it's fun to kick butt once in a while in RPG's.

The kind of V:tM game I like is about political intrigues. Different vampires scheming against each other within the context of Clan rivalries and within the Clans too. The Godfather with fangs, with 7+ Clans instead of five families. Humanity can play a role in this sort of game, but more as a general guideline for how moral a character is, but not as a straight jacket that dominates a players options. In fact, speaking of The Godfather, Michael Corleone does go through a Humanity decline that adds an interesting aspect to the story, but he doesn't fall into a permanent frenzy after settles all family business.

So I think morality is better role played than governed by rolls and numbers. When even the game designers thenselves completely reject their own mechanic, which is what introducing Paths is for Humanity, then you know it's flawed.

Quote from: tenbones;1065640I always felt taking a Path was the perfect example of a Vampire accepting their *lack* of humanity and embracing their condition. It implicitly makes them non-human. Calling them "crazy serial killers" is like calling a wolverine inhuman. I didn't allow players learn a Path willy-nilly - *especially* if they were non-Sabbat.

Paths are a bad example. Touchstones are probably better, since their sole purpose is to let you violate Humanity without consequence.

As I said in the other thread, the entire mechanic is terrible and doesn't achieve what it was supposed to. The community only accepts its continued existence due to the toxic miasma of conformity, doublethink and general religious zealotry that permeates nerd culture.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065646Paths are a bad example. Touchstones are probably better, since their sole purpose is to let you violate Humanity without consequence.

As I said in the other thread, the entire mechanic is terrible and doesn't achieve what it was supposed to. The community only accepts its continued existence due to the toxic miasma of conformity, doublethink and general religious zealotry that permeates nerd culture.

Mind explaining?

Despite my misgivings I actually think V5 is one of the best designed RPGs I've ever encountered, and most of the the problem points are where it lacks simplicity and focus. Also I find the art and layout so offputting that I'm unwilling to purchase it until a plain text version becomes available, if ever.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063627I have the conspiracy theory the Assamites are being destroyed as an old concept because of Assassins Creed having made the concept untentable.

That's your theory of what made them untenable? Not that they were a walking stereotype which led to more racebending in LARP than I've ever seen? Not that they were a hairs breath from being undead Islamic terrorists? Not that their skin became darker (as opposed to lighter) as they aged (which was conceived of by a black author yet still called racist)?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;1063715Ken explained in an interview that V5 was about you playing a monster, which is why the removed Humanity.

Innnteresting.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1064050To be honest, the Humanity mechanic was a mistake to begin with.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064071I think it's the best idea if you actually want player characters not to be unrepentant murderers and action stars but guys trying not to kill people.

Humanity in VtM was nothing more than an excuse to punish a player if they became too disruptive. It did not inform play to any useful degree. It did not present moral dilemmas to confront.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1064807Sabbat style was meant to be an OPTION and people started making it default.

The reason it became a default is because it supported the concept of an adventuring party working together, and ironically the Sabbat are far less likely to betray each other than the Camarilla, which on a player harmony level is a huge win.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1065634I think morality is better role played than governed by rolls and numbers. When even the game designers thenselves completely reject their own mechanic, which is what introducing Paths is for Humanity, then you know it's flawed.

Mechanically speaking V5 presents only one moral choice: Feed or risk losing control. Everything else is run on autopilot, to the point that it actively distracts from moral choices which aren't.

But that's because the designers were so infatuated with their Hunger mechanic that they made the game about feeding and survival rather than Humanity. What Hunger should have done is force choices to be made over whether getting what you want was worth compromising your Convictions or endangering your Touchstones, and the fact it isn't is a huge missed opportunity.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1065857That's your theory of what made them untenable? Not that they were a walking stereotype which led to more racebending in LARP than I've ever seen? Not that they were a hairs breath from being undead Islamic terrorists? Not that their skin became darker (as opposed to lighter) as they aged (which was conceived of by a black author yet still called racist)?

Yep.

They retconned most of that away for Assamite Revised.

But they changed the name for reasons of IP, IMHO.

You know that is fuck up when the bad guys are not trying to betray each other and working together as a single unit.  I am just saying...

Quote from: Snowman0147;1065901You know that is fuck up when the bad guys are not trying to betray each other and working together as a single unit.  I am just saying...

To be fair the Lasombra just defected.

The Camarilla demanded a tithe of blood....and it wasn't the Lasombra who paid it.

So why did they defected?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1065646Paths are a bad example. Touchstones are probably better, since their sole purpose is to let you violate Humanity without consequence.

As I said in the other thread, the entire mechanic is terrible and doesn't achieve what it was supposed to. The community only accepts its continued existence due to the toxic miasma of conformity, doublethink and general religious zealotry that permeates nerd culture.

Humanity was designed for one thing, and one thing only: To keep players in line and playing the game 'the right way', and anything that deviated means you're having badwrongfun and are doing it WRONG!  That's it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1065915So why did they defected?

I suggest reading the whole chapter on it in the Chicago by Night manuscript (available to read if you back it).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/chicago-by-night-for-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-ed/description

However, the short version can be summarized as "Oh, wow, we did NOT kill Lasombra. We need to get the fuck out of here and away from the people running into the Middle East to get eaten by the Antediluvians."

An actual quote?

I can’t help but think of all the blood shed in Africa and the Middle East for this Gehenna Crusade, all the Cainite lives lost, of how we celebrated the one in twenty vampires who returned from conflict with a Methuselah, bloated like a tick on new power. We just forgot the nineteen fallen and where their vitae went. Who it fed. Who or what the ashes of Methuselahs summoned to the surface.—Lasombra Elder

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1065919Humanity was designed for one thing, and one thing only: To keep players in line and playing the game 'the right way', and anything that deviated means you're having badwrongfun and are doing it WRONG!  That's it.

I've always been surprised at how Humanity offends some gamers.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1065939I've always been surprised at how Humanity offends some gamers.

We never used it.  It was never a 'thing' for us, but we were under no illusions as to what it really was.  You should have seen some of the arguments that TBP got over it, a lot of BadWrongFun screeching over there, especially given some comments that were allegedly claimed by both Rein-Hagen and Achilli.

Mechanics can't offend, they're used or they're not, that's the end of it.

Okay.  So the other Sabbit clans are the ones with balls and loyalty to a cause higher than themselves.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1065937I suggest reading the whole chapter on it in the Chicago by Night manuscript (available to read if you back it).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/chicago-by-night-for-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-ed/description

However, the short version can be summarized as "Oh, wow, we did NOT kill Lasombra. We need to get the fuck out of here and away from the people running into the Middle East to get eaten by the Antediluvians."

An actual quote?

I can't help but think of all the blood shed in Africa and the Middle East for this Gehenna Crusade, all the Cainite lives lost, of how we celebrated the one in twenty vampires who returned from conflict with a Methuselah, bloated like a tick on new power. We just forgot the nineteen fallen and where their vitae went. Who it fed. Who or what the ashes of Methuselahs summoned to the surface.--Lasombra Elder

That actually sounds pretty cool.

I wonder what the Tzimisce are thinking then.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1065957That actually sounds pretty cool.

I wonder what the Tzimisce are thinking then.

I think they're still wondering if their magical powers come from a dimensional alien parasite this time around.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1065953Okay.  So the other Sabbit clans are the ones with balls and loyalty to a cause higher than themselves.

The new Sabbat have no loyalty to any cause. That's the second reason. The younger Sabbat have decided to murder their elders for their blood and have become blood addicts possessed by the things they've devoured in the Gehenna War.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1065959The new Sabbat have no loyalty to any cause. That's the second reason. The younger Sabbat have decided to murder their elders for their blood and have become blood addicts possessed by the things they've devoured in the Gehenna War.

So in short the Lasombra accepted defeat and joined the winning team.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1065999So in short the Lasombra accepted defeat and joined the winning team.

There's also the fact the Tremere are weakened and the Ventrue aren't in a great position either so with their power balanced by the Banu Haqim, the Lasombra could seize a lot more power in the Camarilla than they ever could normally.

Joining as the Ventrue's lackeys? Never.

Joining as someone who could theoretically seize control over the sect in a century? That has possibilities.

The Lasombra have a much better history of navigating "interesting times" than the Ventrue.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1065958I think they're still wondering if their magical powers come from a dimensional alien parasite this time around.

The developers have hinted the Tzimisce will be less serial killer flesh monsters this time around than mad scientists and neo-feudalists.

The Old Clan will also be making a comeback.

So the Tzimisce will now have a strong independent base for people who want to play them in Camarilla or Anarch domains.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1065857Mechanically speaking V5 presents only one moral choice: Feed or risk losing control. Everything else is run on autopilot, to the point that it actively distracts from moral choices which aren't.

But that's because the designers were so infatuated with their Hunger mechanic that they made the game about feeding and survival rather than Humanity. What Hunger should have done is force choices to be made over whether getting what you want was worth compromising your Convictions or endangering your Touchstones, and the fact it isn't is a huge missed opportunity.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1065919Humanity was designed for one thing, and one thing only: To keep players in line and playing the game 'the right way', and anything that deviated means you're having badwrongfun and are doing it WRONG!  That's it.

That's why I liked the way that Feed handled it. The mechanic therein is essentially a light/dark side mechanic, so automatically you have genuine temptation whenever you have to chose between them. Do you give up your humanity and become more vampiric, or do you resist? Vampirism has its perks, as long as you are willing to steadily give up your ability to meaningfully interact with the human world. Conversely, to be more human you have to give up the perks of vampirism.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1066001The developers have hinted the Tzimisce will be less serial killer flesh monsters this time around than mad scientists and neo-feudalists.

The Old Clan will also be making a comeback.

So the Tzimisce will now have a strong independent base for people who want to play them in Camarilla or Anarch domains.

The Tzimisce don't hold much appeal to me in their present form. The original Wamphyri from Necroscope , the Neomah from Exalted (despite being made by the same authors), and the devil forgemasters from Castlevania are all vastly more interesting in their application of the same basic monster-making powers.

Daywalking vampires exist in 5th Edition now.

It's an option for Thin Bloods who have gained powers that make them playable.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1066097Daywalking vampires exist in 5th Edition now.

It's an option for Thin Bloods who have gained powers that make them playable.

IIRC, there is also a higher-end Fortitude power that allows some sunlight exposure.

Do their skin sparkle like diamonds in the sun?

:)

Quote from: CTPhipps;1066097Daywalking vampires exist in 5th Edition now.

It's an option for Thin Bloods who have gained powers that make them playable.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1066100IIRC, there is also a higher-end Fortitude power that allows some sunlight exposure.

Like I said in the other thread, emulating things taken for granted in other vampire fiction requires jumping through hoops in this game. Calling itself Vampire when it can't emulate any other vampire fiction is false advertising.

By contrast, D&D can emulate a lot of fantasy fiction that isn't directly influenced by it. Sometimes you might have to rely on third-party products if you want martials who can do more than hit stuff or casters that aren't overpowered, but there's so many options that you can't keep track.

Quote from: tenbones;1066102Do their skin sparkle like diamonds in the sun?

:)

I don't know, maybe? I'm fine with vampires walking around during the daytime so long as they have other weaknesses to explain why they haven't taken over the world long ago. Like needing to sleep in the soil of their grave, unable to cross running water under their own power, repelled by particular plants, etc.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1066107Like I said in the other thread, emulating things taken for granted in other vampire fiction requires jumping through hoops in this game. Calling itself Vampire when it can't emulate any other vampire fiction is false advertising.

By contrast, D&D can emulate a lot of fantasy fiction that isn't directly influenced by it. Sometimes you might have to rely on third-party products if you want martials who can do more than hit stuff or casters that aren't overpowered, but there's so many options that you can't keep track.

I don't know, maybe? I'm fine with vampires walking around during the daytime so long as they have other weaknesses to explain why they haven't taken over the world long ago. Like needing to sleep in the soil of their grave, unable to cross running water under their own power, repelled by particular plants, etc.

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit.

V:TM does an amazing job of replicating most vampire experiences of the 90s and is working to incorporate the 21st century.

However, quite a bit of vampire shit is contradictory.

"You can't do a daywalking vampire!" isn't an argument if other vampries explode in the sun.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1066122Sorry, I'm calling bullshit.

V:TM does an amazing job of replicating most vampire experiences of the 90s and is working to incorporate the 21st century.

However, quite a bit of vampire shit is contradictory.

"You can't do a daywalking vampire!" isn't an argument if other vampries explode in the sun.

Calling "bullshit" is not a viable argument. The problem here is that you are thinking in terms of "all vampires should follow the same rules aside from clan aptitudes/weaknesses," whereas I don't agree with that at all. That is an extreme square peg round hole problem that has afflicted the game since day one.

There are a bazillion vampire stories out there. If you want a remotely comprehensive overview, there is a blog full of hundreds of reviews of vampire-related media @ http://taliesinttlg.blogspot.com/ . Saying VTM can't capture even a tiny fraction of that variety, regardless of what decade you restrict your survey to, is like saying water is wet. This isn't a negative value judgment, but a statement of simple fact. VTM is arbitrarily restrictive. I consider that a con and it is one of the many reasons, aside from the terrible ST rules, that I won't engage with VTM.

VTM doesn't replicate any vampire experiences except that created specifically for the game itself. It is a hodgepodge of some vampire cliches, ideas ripped off from other writers, and a few idiosyncrasies unique to Rein-Hagen. Unless you hack the rules, you cannot emulate Anne Rice (http://vampirerpg.free.fr/Rules/Anne-Rice.html), The Lost Boys (http://dreaddice.blogspot.com/2012/09/three-decades-in-blood-lost-boys.html), Buffy the Vampire Slayer (http://dreaddice.blogspot.com/2012/12/three-decades-in-blood-buffy-vampire.html), or any vampire fiction that is not VTM. Things like "blood magic" or "high level disciplines" or "obscure merits/flaws" are poor excuses.

That is across the history of fiction, not the 90s specifically. Dracula could scale walls, Carmilla could pass through locked doors, the lost boys could fly, folkloric vampires could do all sorts of crazy things, etc. 21st century fiction doesn't add anything new so much as remix what has already come before. VTM can't do those things without jumping through arbitrarily hoops and filler, if at all. GURPS Blood Types, another 90s book, is good example of what I mean when I am asking for a comprehensive vampire roleplaying experience. At one point it suggests a setup in which many different types of vampires with wildly different natures coexist, using the point buy system to balance the PCs.

All Flesh Must Be Eaten was more creative in its approach to zombies. Rather than forcing all zombies to follow one highly specific set of rules, it provides a point buy system for GMs to create their own zombie varieties and provides numerous example settings. Night's Black Agents does something similar for vampires, them being antagonists therein and all.

To be fair, the 21st Century did do something new to Vampires.  They made them SPARKLE.










...I never said it was a GOOD new thing...

No Tabletop Game is going to be able to do everything unless it is GURPS

and there's a reason people don't play GURPS.

They want settings and settings require rules.

You can't play the Lord of the Rings in Dragonlance or the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1066132To be fair, the 21st Century did do something new to Vampires.  They made them SPARKLE.










...I never said it was a GOOD new thing...

Most western vampire media doesn't impress me anymore due to the limited SFX budgets and the generally low quality of most of these movies in general. The Strain reintroduced the toothed tongue vampires from certain folklore, but the plot was terrible.

Japanese cartoons don't do any better in the plot department, but the SFX are generally much better due a lack of live actors.

Black Blood Brothers looks like it was directly inspired by Vampire: The Masquerade, what with mentioning different bloodlines with different powers and weaknesses. It is still vastly more creative than VtM, because it includes things like vampires that aren't harmed by sunlight and vampires that are pathogenic and can even infect other vampires.

The vampires in Tsukihime get incredibly weird. One of them is a mobile forest (based on the Jubokko, vampire trees of Japanese folklore) and another is a mass of 666 demons.

Blood Blockade Battlefront has extremely deadly, hostile and voracious vampires.

There's loads more examples though, but that would be really long.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1066136No Tabletop Game is going to be able to do everything unless it is GURPS

and there's a reason people don't play GURPS.

They want settings and settings require rules.

You can't play the Lord of the Rings in Dragonlance or the Forgotten Realms.

All three are campaign settings for the D&D rules. Anne Rice, Buffy, and Lost Boys are NOT campaign settings for VTM. Your comparison falls flat.

Requiem did have a antagonist book where it featured other types of vampires with rules to make them.  Combine that with Mirrors you got something golden.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1066144Requiem did have a antagonist book where it featured other types of vampires with rules to make them.  Combine that with Mirrors you got something golden.

That isn't a good solution.

The Night Horrors book presented a few examples of vampires other than the generic pseudo-Ricean kind, such as a few flavors of Aswang, but they didn't actually provide guidelines for making your own. The book is about as useful as any other homebrew you could find on the internet.

Even Mirrors cannot salvage the mess that is the ST rules. You might as well pick a new system.

Complaining is getting tiresome. Here's somebody else's attempt at explaining vampire bloodlines in the Wold Newton Universe: http://wnuvampires.blogspot.com/2011/10/upon-classification-of-vampires.html

Long story short, the author just looked at recurring tropes in vampire media and sorted similar vampires into groups. White Wolf is explicitly referenced as existing in-universe and making a roleplaying about vampires (which isn't true to in-universe vampires though).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1066140All three are campaign settings for the D&D rules. Anne Rice, Buffy, and Lost Boys are NOT campaign settings for VTM. Your comparison falls flat.

No, The World of Darkness is a campaign setting for the Storyteller System and gives you the chance to play similar monsters to them.

Like you can play LIKE the Lord of the Rings in the Realms.

But it's own unique property.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1066160No, The World of Darkness is a campaign setting for the Storyteller System and gives you the chance to play similar monsters to them.

Like you can play LIKE the Lord of the Rings in the Realms.

But it's own unique property.

Middle Earth has literally been licensed as a D&D campaign setting. (http://cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/adventures-in-middle-earth/) It has all sorts of special rules to promote the flavor of Tolkien's works.

VTM doesn't support anything besides its own idiosyncrasies unless you hack the rules. World of Darkness is more or less synonymous with Storyteller, and Chronicles isn't very different when it comes to vampires unless you are one of the crazy people fighting the edition wars.

Your comparison still falls flat.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1065595To be fair, Rein-Hagen's vision of the game was much more lame than the katana & trenchcoat thing.

If it is any consolation. He cant Kickstart a board game worth a fuck either.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1065634I don't like V:tM as a game about vampires feeling angst over their declining humanity nor do I necessarily like trench coats and katanas, though I admit it's fun to kick butt once in a while in RPG's.

The kind of V:tM game I like is about political intrigues. Different vampires scheming against each other within the context of Clan rivalries and within the Clans too. The Godfather with fangs, with 7+ Clans instead of five families. Humanity can play a role in this sort of game, but more as a general guideline for how moral a character is, but not as a straight jacket that dominates a players options. In fact, speaking of The Godfather, Michael Corleone does go through a Humanity decline that adds an interesting aspect to the story, but he doesn't fall into a permanent frenzy after settles all family business.

So I think morality is better role played than governed by rolls and numbers. When even the game designers thenselves completely reject their own mechanic, which is what introducing Paths is for Humanity, then you know it's flawed.

I think alot of people play it this way. The intrigues and dealings rather than the battles and angst. Though those come into play too. You especially see this in the LARP. Or at least all the ones I have seen so far have been predominantly intrigue driven.

I play it exactly like Bloodlines.

Lots and lots of urban fantasy questing in a single city.

I do agree with Box that the Storyteller system is awful.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1065939I've always been surprised at how Humanity offends some gamers.

Humanity mechanics which are only punitive offend me :D

Quote from: RPGPundit;1066381I do agree with Box that the Storyteller system is awful.

What about how good they think all those PbtA RPGs are?

Interesting which targets you picked in this situation.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1066381I do agree with Box that the Storyteller system is awful.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1066392Humanity mechanics which are only punitive offend me :D



What about how good they think all those PbtA RPGs are?

Interesting which targets you picked in this situation.

In the hands of better designers I think the ST system could work, but Onyx Path doesn't fit the bill. Without going into philosophy of game design, I think that a game should have rules that promote the gameplay the designers wanted. The problem with the White Wolf games is that they wrote the ST system as essentially an 80s school of generic system (although you argue it doesn't work well), then bolted on personality mechanics that didn't mesh at all.

Personality mechanics are always an iffy thing, given the inherently difficulty of measuring abstract concepts like that. On one hand you don't want to force players to play a way that they don't want to, but on the other you want the mechanics to promote a particular kind of roleplaying. Light side/dark side mechanics are really the only time I have seen this done well, since it gets players invested a lot better than writing wishy-washy prose.

The biggest barrier is that, even if you can mesh the personality mechanics with the rules well, you still need the players to be invested in that inner conflict. A competent designer will realize that isn't always possible and plan accordingly, such as providing multiple kinds of different gameplay that the rules may easily support depending on how much they care about the light/dark side conflict. For example, you could run an angsty campaign in which characters are struggling against the dark side, a non-angsty campaign in which they gleefully descend into darkness, or a moderately angsty campaign in which they are trying to rise to the light side after a life of wickedness.

But calling it "storyteller/ing" is a huge misnomer since it has none of the storytelling mechanics indie games have introduced, like free-form traits. It falls neatly into the 80s school of game design except with a bunch of other stuff crudely tacked on depending on the edition, like personality mechanics and FATE-style aspects.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1066392What about how good they think all those PbtA RPGs are?

Interesting which targets you picked in this situation.

I don't see the relevance of the question. Those games are awful too, though.