In another thread, Hermes Serpent says:
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;962064What I've found interesting about this thread is the low value placed on pdf's when the content is identical to the hard copy version. Even allowing for the cost of production of a hard copy book the disparity between the two formats is skewed very much in favour of paying much higher sums for hard copy compared to soft copy pdf's.
Which reminds me of my recent realization: I value PDFs much more than I used to, but when I want a hardcopy, I want the hardcopy.
I use a good variety of references when I game, but I never game at home. Portability is at a premium, and with tablets and slim laptops, portability of PDFs is quite a bit more of a selling point that it used to be.
Additionally, shelf space management at home is becoming a growing concern for me.
Accordingly, often when I purchase a gaming product these days, I often only buy it in PDF.
The main exceptions for me is core books or frequently referenced character option books. There is often a demand for multiple copies of these at the table.
Contrariwise, if I don't know I will be playing a game, I will go for the PDF to review it, borrow content, etc.
How about you? How do you value PDFs? Has it changed over the years?
PDFs are useful for me for two things: casual reading (be it at home or on the go) and copying material out of to re-work for my own homebrew games. I never use them for actual gaming, and that's why physical copies of games will always be far more valuable for me. I can reference something in a physical book 10x faster than even the best PDFs out there.
I can definitely understand the shelf space argument, however. That's one big reason I dislike books that are bloated with pages of unneeded content that exist solely to drive up the page count and do nothing to help with gaming.
I've come around a bunch on pdfs- there's a lot to the format that is praise worthy. They don't take up physical space, they can be updated with errata, they won't yellow over time and what not. The pdf you get today will look the same years from now with heavy use:) That being said, a book, binder, booklet- just easier to use at the table. I'm sure at some point, someone will come out with a really user friendly pdf that's easy to use at the table.
One issue with a pdf is- you can never sell it or trade it in. A book you can do that if it doesn't end up being your thing.
I want all my RPGs to be delivered in tablet accessible #Wikis. PDFs are a historical accident and holding us back.
Quote from: RunningLaser;962153One issue with a pdf is- you can never sell it or trade it in. A book you can do that if it doesn't end up being your thing.
That is a very good point. No resale value, no collector value.
Quote from: RunningLaser;962152I'm sure at some point, someone will come out with a really user friendly pdf that's easy to use at the table.
Technology is going to have to improve for that to happen. There are already some fantastic PDFs out there; just look at the "augmented" PDFs that Void Star Studios puts out for games like Nova Praxis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biBxNCZ1d1s). But as long as they're still being accessed through our current clunky tablets and computers, they'll never be as easy to use as a physical book regardless of how well organized and linked they are.
I normally only buy PDFs now, as they are portable and easy to use in a gaming session.
Very occasionally will I buy hardcopy, normally when I am backing something I am involved with.
I greatly prefer PDFs to start with. If I really like the book, then I'll buy it too (for play at the table, can be quicker to look up the book then fiddle with the PDF sometimes). Also you can often pass the book around more easily. I should also point out I prefer softcover to hardcover, just less bulk.
Quote from: Dumarest;962159That is a very good point. No resale value, no collector value.
Also they are potentially very fragile due to file corruption or any given computer mishap.
The other problem with PDFs is that they require you to be at the computer or have some sort of device handy. And for more than a few playing an RPG is getting the hell away from the computer.
I like both but increasingly PDFs are a greater convenience for me. The search function is especially helpful compared to print books. I tend to rely more on PDFs during online games and books during regular live sessions. But most people at my table use PDFs on a tablet now.
Quote from: Dumarest;962159That is a very good point. No resale value, no collector value.
True. However, I'm finding this to be less true than it once was. When I was trying to do a purge, I couldn't give some stuff away.
Quote from: Omega;962187Also they are potentially very fragile due to file corruption or any given computer mishap.
That, not so much. If the vendor isn't stable and responsible, it can be a problem (Kobold press had a total changeover of their system since their early patron projects; if I lose what I have now, I'm hosed.) But nowadays, most vendors are able to let you re-download at will.
QuoteThe other problem with PDFs is that they require you to be at the computer or have some sort of device handy.
And that right there is the principal weakness. Dead tree book have their display device built-in.
I prefer books at the table because they're easier to use for me. But as soon as someone comes up with a device for consulting PDF (or any other digital format) which allows the same ease of use, the switch will be instantaneous.
To be honest I don't understand what they're waiting for. Something with color e-ink and a double screen to simulate the two pages of an open book, and an horizontal scrollbar to quickly jump to the needed section, would solve most of the current problems.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962146In another thread, Hermes Serpent says:
Which reminds me of my recent realization: I value PDFs much more than I used to, but when I want a hardcopy, I wank the hardcopy.
Sorry, but this statement had me in stitches, I guess that it's a typing error but wank is British slang for masturbation so you can imagine the mental picture ....
Looking at current hardcopy prices from, let's say, a mid-tier publisher, Pelgrane Press, the price for a hard copy of 13th Age is $44.95. They currently offer the pdf either alone or in a bundle but let's look at the standalone pdf at $19.95. The total discount for a distributor and a retailer is usually something like 60% of the hard copy price so $45 x.40 or $18 bucks nett to PP. This falls in line with the $19.95 listed for just the pdf (allowing for some missing details of the exact discount to the point of sale) and allows for the cost of hosting a e-commerce shop.
Let's select another company, Cubicle 7, of similar nature. C7 have a US warehouse and print both in the US and in Europe as well as China whereas I believe PP print in the US. The cost of their relatively new Adventures in Middle Earth is $39.99 in hard copy and $19.99 in pdf (from Drivethru) so applying the same logic as above the discounted cost of the pdf is around $16 so Drivethru costs C7 extra to host their pdf's there and this is confirmed by Pelgrane charging $24.95 for the 13th Age pdf via Drivethru compared to only £19.95 on their own site.
People using Drivethru to host all their pdf's in one place are paying extra for the convenience to do so. Seeing as the cost of a few hundred GB of cloud storage is negligible but the cost of the time in copying all your pdfs to the cloud is variable people can make a choice.
While paying small sums like a few bucks is OK for something you are ambivalent about playing is fine the cost of a properly linked rulebook in pdf (plus in some cases an ebook version (Pelgrane supply mobi and other formats in their zipped pdf)) should be more in line with the utility (searching and lower weight) of the pdf. The smell and look of a book is an intangible quality that varies from person to person but looking good on the shelf or coffee table while not being used in play hardly warrants the cost.
I use pdfs almost exclusively. Cheaper, no shelf space, searchable.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962146How about you? How do you value PDFs? Has it changed over the years?
I buy PDFs only if there is no book available, and I really want the product. If there is a book, I always choose to buy that instead.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962191That, not so much. If the vendor isn't stable and responsible, it can be a problem (Kobold press had a total changeover of their system since their early patron projects; if I lose what I have now, I'm hosed.) But nowadays, most vendors are able to let you re-download at will.
I wish! I've got a couple of PDFs now that for whatever reasons cant be downloaded again. Those get lost and thats it. And sometimes the producer just ups and takes the stuff down.
Most recent example is that for some reason I cant get the updated release of Star Explorer from Goblinoid despite having bought the earlier version and Starships & Spacemen.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;962243I buy PDFs only if there is no book available, and I really want the product. If there is a book, I always choose to buy that instead.
Well some print books
are damn sexy.
Quote from: Omega;962247I wish! I've got a couple of PDFs now that for whatever reasons cant be downloaded again. Those get lost and thats it. And sometimes the producer just ups and takes the stuff down.
Most recent example is that for some reason I cant get the updated release of Star Explorer from Goblinoid despite having bought the earlier version and Starships & Spacemen.
It does still crop up. For me, mostly in the realm of Kickstarter projects who don't want to deal with One Book Shelf free downloads for whatever reason. They'll throw the PDFs up on drop box and say "get it while it's hot", and then pull the links down after a short time.
I use pdfs and physical books for different things. During prep I love using pdfs. At the table I want actual printed content because I don't use any electronic devices there.
Quote from: Omega;962247I wish! I've got a couple of PDFs now that for whatever reasons cant be downloaded again. Those get lost and thats it. And sometimes the producer just ups and takes the stuff down.
Most recent example is that for some reason I cant get the updated release of Star Explorer from Goblinoid despite having bought the earlier version and Starships & Spacemen.
I backup my PDFs onto another hard drive and onto a pendrive (64GB now, far more space than I need), I also back up onto the Internet.
If they all go down then I have a problem.
Lived through too much media format obsolescence (and tech gremlins) to unclench my death grip from the printed page.
I recognize pdf as a useful adjunct, until 30+ (or perhaps just 3+?) more years before I'd have to go through that old song & dance again. And I will never make it easier for a Big Media rentier mentality, a la the current state of music & film. Ownership (possession) is nine tenths of the law and all that jazz. Fuck endless renting and forced treadmill obsolescence.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;962146Portability is at a premium, and with tablets and slim laptops, portability of PDFs is quite a bit more of a selling point that it used to be.
I could never use a pdf to look up stuff in game. I will occasionally do a google rule or monster search on the Internet, especially for Pathfinder stuff, but I could never run an adventure off a pdf - I always print them out. I struggle to imagine how it would be possible to GM an adventure off a screen. Maybe I could just about do it in a text chat online game, but never in tabletop. In practice even if I'm running a one page dungeon I got off the Internet in my online game, I still print that page out.
I tend to buy pdf now unless there is a compelling reason for me to get hardcopy as well.
The games I prefer to run can be run off only a few select pages printed out, so I tuck those in my GM folder and off I go.
Quote from: S'mon;962315I could never run an adventure off a pdf - I always print them out. I struggle to imagine how it would be possible to GM an adventure off a screen.
Pencil doesn't work on screens, and markers leave awful stains.
Paper for me as well, all the time.
Does anyone run an adventure as written?
I take the scenario pdf and reduce it to a few plot points/notes, add back in more notes about locations and personalities, add some stat blocks and maybe notes or relevant sections from the rules (e.g. like sidebar notes or autofire rules as an aide memoire) and print out the resulting document to run. If I hadn't got the scenario and the rulebooks in pdf that method of running a game would be many times harder as I'd have to type everything back in rather than copy n'pasting it.
This system means I rarely need to refer to any rulebook at the table as I mostly have core rules memorised by now after many years of gaming. When running 6 four hour games over a weekend, using four different settings and three different systems, avoiding heavy rulebooks and minimising time wasted in not knowing the correct rule is reduced.
Why waste formatting time & ink when I can use a pencil & post-it notes? :cool: After college I got very good at taking concise notes and annotating texts with minimal book damage, (for eventual resell).
Quote from: Opaopajr;962367Why waste formatting time & ink when I can use a pencil & post-it notes? :cool: After college I got very good at taking concise notes and annotating texts with minimal book damage, (for eventual resell).
Yeah, I pencil notes in the margins of my printout or hardcopy purchase. Makes glossy hardcopies like Paizo do VERY annoying, I have a special 8B pencil for them...
I've found that most commercial scenarios tend to the pretty layout with little utility in presenting information in the sequence you need it or with information buried in useless fluff or mindless verbiage. Common issues are having the stats for an NPC nowhere near the first appearance of said NPC in the text and information half in a stat block and half in text located elsewhere, even on another page. Blocks of read-aloud text in horrible English often in the third person and usually having little relevance to the actual current events.
This is why I mostly use my own material and write it in bullet points plus relying on my own extensive real world knowledge rather than badly written published scenarios.
Quote from: Dumarest;962159That is a very good point. No resale value, no collector value.
I don't buy anything to collect it, but to use it. So resale value is irrelevant to me, personally.
I enjoy PDF's greatly. I find them very useful. But I'm a book guy. Any game that I run, I generally get the PDF's for that game too for extra reference. I normally GM with book in hand, and laptop at ready with extraneous PDF's and notes on multiple tabs for easy access.
So I do both. My needle has certainly moved. I used to disdain PDF use, but I'm a slave to efficiency... so here I am. PDF + Book.
Quote from: Kiero;962388I don't buy anything to collect it, but to use it. So resale value is irrelevant to me, personally.
That's allowed.
Beta, Cassettes, VHS, DVD, HDDVD.
When the "Big One" finally hits Vancouver I'll have some nice copies of AD&D2 in my emergency gear and if the earthquake doesn't damage them all my books on my shelves. Once you have enough food, water and emergency gear stockpiled the next most dangerous thing is boredom. PDFs can't do fuck all for you when the power goes out.
Great recent example: a big windstorm a couple of years ago cut off all power the whole weekend. Luckily my buddy had just loaned me the first Dresden Files novel so I was covered. I mean I still had my full library anyway but if I'd been depending on something running off a battery I could have been in trouble.
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;962324Pencil doesn't work on screens, and markers leave awful stains.
Paper for me as well, all the time.
Xodo (Android) among many other apps, lets you take typewritten and hand-drawn notes on PDFs.
Quote from: KingCheops;962407Great recent example: a big windstorm a couple of years ago cut off all power the whole weekend. Luckily my buddy had just loaned me the first Dresden Files novel so I was covered. I mean I still had my full library anyway but if I'd been depending on something running off a battery I could have been in trouble.
I've played D&D by candle light during a power outage that lasted all evening. Admittedly, we could have pulled out some board games instead and still had fun, but D&D was the first choice of the people in the room.
Eventually, I suspect that the PDF (or better replacement format) tech and associated devices will catch up to the point that I find it compelling, but it isn't there yet. Also, if I don't like the content, it doesn't matter what format it is. I can not purchase and read the PDF just as easily as I can not purchase and read the book. I've noticed zero difference in cost/benefit between the two forms in that case. The content that I enjoy fits quite well in the space I have dedicated to those books.
Quote from: Tod13;962408Xodo (Android) among many other apps, lets you take typewritten and hand-drawn notes on PDFs.
You've been able to annotate pdfs since, like, forever! (clicks bubblegum) But I never found it faster, or more reliable, than pencil & sticky notes. After my fair share of public speaking preparation, and GMing is not all that different, I haven't taken to pdfs' advantages over old methods of preparation.
That said, yes, pdfs are a fantastic tool. Just like power point for presentations and the like, they are a great tool when they work in your favor. (And god, how I wished they always worked in my favor... *sigh* technical difficulties.) But it is still just one of many tools in the arsenal to put one's best best foot forward.
These days I have found I spend a lot more time with the PDFs for games I am running (easier to prep a game with PDFs) but I need the book for general reading and as a quick-access table copy. The book becomes almost more of a symbol of commitment.
If I have a PDF and I don't plan to run the game then it's usually a waste. If I have a PDF for a game I want to run, I need that book, or it is highly unlikely I will get around to running the game with only a PDF. This is specific to me, and probably my Gen X fellows, I suspect...I think post gen-Xers/Millennials are probably finding the PDF to be a preferred resource.
I suspect I might be willing to try running with a PDF if I had a tablet that didn't drain the battery faster than the game going on, or provided a really intuitive interface with the PDF to navigate with. Most PDFs I've got are not optimal for quick searching, though.
Quote from: Kiero;962388I don't buy anything to collect it, but to use it. So resale value is irrelevant to me, personally.
Same here. But sometime you end up with a failure and resale is one way to recoup the expense and pass the game on to someone who may actually like it.
I think Anon's got a point. If you're going to have a computing device at the table a properly cross-linked wiki would be infinitely more useful for lookups than a pdf.
The person running this website is a racist who publicly advocates genocidal practices.
I am deleting my content.
I recommend you do the same.
Quote from: S'mon;962315I could never use a pdf to look up stuff in game. I will occasionally do a google rule or monster search on the Internet, especially for Pathfinder stuff, but I could never run an adventure off a pdf - I always print them out. I struggle to imagine how it would be possible to GM an adventure off a screen.
I use a Kindle 2 and it works fine with PDFs for gaming. If I have a scenario then I bullet-point most things and that is easy to use. Even published scenarios work fine. I keep track of NPC wounds etc on a separate piece of paper, as that is easier, but have no problems running scenarios from PDFs.
These days "at the table" can often mean "on Roll20", so my appreciation for pdfs has risen considerably.
I've gotten to like PDFs.
However, some things annoy me. PDFs that put the maps in the middle of the text. This is a pain in the ass in print as well
And while it's not a big deal on tablets (since they only show one page at a time anyway, or at least mine does), it seems like every PDF has it's default page set to "Single Page, Continuous". That just does not work for RPGs. Or anything, really. And it's almost always zoomed in. So when opening on a computer, you see half a page.
You can set these things when you create a PDF, yet so many companies/people seem to pick the most annoying settings possible.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;962491No one in the first world in the 21st century has any excuse not to have a robust system for backing up their data. If my house burns down I will lose every physical book I own... but my PDFs are as close to forever as anything can be in this world.
(Barring a complete collapse of civilization. And if that happens, I've probably got more important things to be worried about.)
With the advent of ever more hostile and destructive viruses being created. Dont count on that so much.
The other problem is formatting. Unlikely now. But I actually have some files from my old RPG company that are now literally impossible to open because I dont have that type of computer running that type of software anymore. (just some image files seems.) And luckily my old PCX sprite files for Star Frontiers are still kinda readable.
Since going 'digital' my money has dwindled significantly, as it's too bloody easy to buy RPGs now. The convenience of having everything on one tablet is great. Beats the day of driving with a backpack of books on a motorbike in the pissing rain.
The other thing that I really like is that I can underline just the important parts of the book - so if (or when) I need to read it again it's a lot quicker second time around (because I have a poxy memory).
So, in short, I like my PDFs.