Well Ben Rogers got his thread closed rather abruptly, are we gonna get all Glorantha threads closed because of Broo?
What I would do with the Uzmek is retain the essential horror of the creature without making it "rapey". Having contamination by the creature's blood reproduces the creature not by having it's blood essentially be it's semen, but by having it's blood contain the virus, parasite, magical curse that turns ANY creature, male or female, into one of these beings. Take gender out of the equation, take traditional biological reproductive fluids out of the equation and leave the monster as is, in the rulebook.
People who complain then, may as well complain about Zombies, the X-Files and all the works of David Cronenberg or the Body Horror genre in general.
So, you do have a third option, one which should keep both groups off your back as well as have the monster fill it's desired role in the setting.
Quote from: CRKrueger;688981Well Ben Rogers got his thread closed rather abruptly, are we gonna get all Glorantha threads closed because of Broo?
What I would do with the Uzmek is retain the essential horror of the creature without making it "rapey". Having contamination by the creature's blood reproduces the creature not by having it's blood essentially be it's semen, but by having it's blood contain the virus, parasite, magical curse that turns ANY creature, male or female, into one of these beings. Take gender out of the equation, take traditional biological reproductive fluids out of the equation and leave the monster as is, in the rulebook.
People who complain then, may as well complain about Zombies, the X-Files and all the works of David Cronenberg or the Body Horror genre in general.
So, you do have a third option, one which should keep both groups off your back as well as have the monster fill it's desired role in the setting.
You forgot Glaki, I mean come on, who can resist going Freudian on that one? A creature that changes people into slaves by piercing them with it's mighty spikes and releasing a toxin into them?
Also, Fimirs....
I'm sorry. I think there's a big difference between a creature like the Broo who epitomizes the corrupting, unclean aspect of Chaos as a spawn of its Goddess Malia, with a clear role in the world's cosmology and mythoi, and a creature created for the purpose of not having players play them by defaulting to a 'Rape Ogre' (sic) that impregnates people on contact "because semen in blood", with the added oh-so-tasteful detail that its victims are killed outright by society "because".
Nothing could possibly go wrong, right? And then to come here to create an Nth bitching thread about RPGnet that has 100% chance to go awry in the next twenty posts, and already DID when I posted. . . No. I took it on me, and I locked that thread.
If pundit wants to reopen it that is fine. That was my personal call, and I think it was the right call. It's on a case by case basis. YMMV.
I think the thread served its purpose in the first few posts, and Benoist made the right call, there was nowhere good it cd hv gone, and it was merciful on the OP to not give every poster here the chance to stop in and tell him what an awful idea he had. I don't think in general that any of the subjects are taboo here, and if you've got something worthwhile to say about the Broo or any other monster, I wouldn't look at that as cause to worry about censorship.
Quote from: CRKrueger;688981What I would do with the Uzmek is retain the essential horror of the creature without making it "rapey". Having contamination by the creature's blood reproduces the creature not by having it's blood essentially be it's semen, but by having it's blood contain the virus, parasite, magical curse that turns ANY creature, male or female, into one of these beings. Take gender out of the equation, take traditional biological reproductive fluids out of the equation and leave the monster as is, in the rulebook.
BTW, this is already MUCH better. How long did it take you to think of it? Five minutes, tops?
The original idea was absolutely TERRIBLE. Somebody's got to say it.
Quote from: Benoist;689017BTW, this is already MUCH better. How long did it take you to think of it? Five minutes, tops?
The original idea was absolutely TERRIBLE. Somebody's got to say it.
Of course rape monsters aren't always a terrible idea.
Alien is a classic of the horror genera it's about a all about rape monsters. You just have to handle the material with finesse that Ben Rogers clearly lacks.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;689018Of course rape monsters aren't always a terrible idea.
Rape as a topic ought to be on the table as far as possible elements of a campaign are concerned. I also do believe there's a healthy dose of thought which ought to be involved, and the line in the sand varies with people.
Bandits (as per MM) in my D&D games rape and mutilate people. They are Evil, they have basically given up on their humanity and became monsters.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;689018Alien is a classic of the horror genera it's about a all about rape monsters. You just have to handle the material with finesse that Ben Rogers clearly lacks.
It's much more complex than just the "rape monster" thing, as far as Aliens are concerned. I for instance love the reverse treatment Ridley Scott did of the Titan Prometheus, with the liver not being eaten by the eagles, but the insides of the Titan giving birth to the Destroyer instead, with the progenitor (the squid thing which attacks the Engineer/Titan) born out of man's anxieties. That's some powerful stuff.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;689018Of course rape monsters aren't always a terrible idea. Alien is a classic of the horror genera it's about a all about rape monsters. You just have to handle the material with finesse that Ben Rogers clearly lacks.
There's also The Thing... particularly in the Peter Watt's take: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/
Quote from: Benoist;689007That was my personal call, and I think it was the right call. It's on a case by case basis. YMMV.
I think it's a good call too. What in the fucking hell is a "So, you can vote to keep the Rape Ogre or not!" thread? It's blatant trolling for cheap controversy and buzz, complete with the expected "And the link to this thing is in my .sig" line. Just for shucks and giggles, what other "controversial" elements are they putting up for public vote? (No, I didn't think so.)
Philosophical question: if you introduced the Xenomorph from the Aliens movies, and they weren't previously invented by O'Bannon and illustrated by Geiger, and your fluff text included bits from the various Alien movies - from AVP Requiem (pregnant women targeted specifically by the Xenopred hybrids), Prometheus (proto-facehugger embryo nearly tearing its way out of Shaw's womb), Aliens (first/only found colonist victim is a woman) and of course Alien itself - would that be banworthy or too squicky?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;689034Philosophical question: if you introduced the Xenomorph from the Aliens movies, and they weren't previously invented by O'Bannon and illustrated by Geiger, and your fluff text included bits from the various Alien movies - from AVP Requiem (pregnant women targeted specifically by the Xenopred hybrids), Prometheus (proto-facehugger embryo nearly tearing its way out of Shaw's womb), Aliens (first/only found colonist victim is a woman) and of course Alien itself - would that be banworthy or too squicky?
In and of itself, no.
It depends on circumstances and context, on a case by case basis. Like say if you post graphic pictures of pregnant women giving birth to malformed children in order to fit your post about your "aliens" because "ambiance", which would go way above and beyond the line in the sand we have here relating to posting porn/graphic content on the Site, then yeah, that'd be ban worthy.
Quote from: Benoist;689036In and of itself, no.
It depends on circumstances and context, on a case by case basis.
I think it would if you hammered on the "Women get raped/impregnated by the xenomorphs, they're its main prey".
Quote from: thedungeondelver;689038I think it would if you hammered on the "Women get raped/impregnated by the xenomorphs, they're its main prey".
If you were presenting it that way you'd get people on the Site railing against you, pretty much guaranteed, and your thread would be shut down as a result. If you hammered the topic over and over and couldn't let it go, even after getting warned and asked to fucking drop the creepy bullshit, then you'd get banned because you'd have disrupted multiple threads about it in the process, yeah, sooner or later.
Quote from: Benoist;689039If you were presenting it that way you'd get people on the Site railing against you, pretty much guaranteed, and your thread would be shut down as a result. If you hammered the topic over and over and couldn't let it go, then you'd get banned because you'd disrupt multiple threads about it.
Well sure, and I'm not suggesting a thought experiment where we play that game, either; the Xenos are horrible, but, I think if for whatever system - or say you just invented the Aliens universe as a game (again with the caveat that in this hypothetical situation it didn't already exist and contain some of the most praised modern sci-fi/horror cinema features and artwork), and published it that group would decide that the creatures themselves were terrible and you were terrible.
Yes, it's actually a matter of context. And even if you have given some thought about what the creature means in the context of your game and world, and explain your thought process thoroughly and it seems sensible to 80% of people here or whatnot, chances are, you'll get someone, somewhere having a nervous breakdown over it because "blood", "vagina" or whatnot, sure.
Cue the what-the-hell-is-her-name wife from Numenera.
Eh, what? In Alien etc. it's metaphorical impregnation, but mechanically, the xenos are more like wasps that give their larvae paralyzed prey to eat, yeah?
The Dragon Age darkspawn seem a little more on the nose actually.
Body horror sets off people's reactions because human reproduction is so strange and grotesque when viewed in any kind of alternate context. There's a reason why the playwright Edward Albee called sex "bumping uglies" and many authors have looked at pregnancy as the presence of a parasite.
Body horror works because its transgressive. Body horror monsters cause fear in the reader and the viewer because they cross boundaries of "decency" and scratch at both our sexual fears and our sexual fetishes.
But in RPGs, monsters are statblocks that exist to be killed. If anyone asks "how do they make half-orcs?", you step into questionable territory especially on a forum frequented by old men. Transgressive topics in general (and any innovation that may occur in body horror genres) is the domain of the young.
I never got the whole "half-orcs are always the result of rape". Humans can be any race (incl. lawful evil) and, given a bunch of bandits or other group of humans similarly aligned with orcs who can say the resultant offspring wouldn't be the result of a consensual pairing? I've never seen any implication that half-elves are the result of rape; the only term describing orcs in this fashion is "fecund" which (roughly) means "has a lot of babies". Doesn't say "Orc females are raped, or orc males rape human females, that's why there are half orcs".
I think we've got half-orcs (and half-goblins, or goblin-men) and half-elves because both pairings exist in Tolkien's work where once again there's no implication of rape as the cause.
The Forgotten Realms has something like these, the Phaerimm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaerimm)
QuotePhaerimm reproduce asexually by injecting eggs through their stingers into paralyzed victims. Once the eggs hatch, the hatchlings devour their victims from the inside.
I guess one difference is that they are implanting already fertilized eggs, not impregnating someone, but...
Quote from: Benoist;689017BTW, this is already MUCH better. How long did it take you to think of it? Five minutes, tops?
The original idea was absolutely TERRIBLE. Somebody's got to say it.
Oh yeah, I agree, the original was terrible, and it didn't take long to fix at all, but that's kind of what the point of the thread was, as I read it, he was asking for options to fix it.
I don't want this place to be a haven for rapegames that can't be on purple, but Promised Sands (from what I remember of the setting) isn't like that. There's just that one monster that's not very well designed, and with a little tune-up can be horrific, and fit the same role in the setting, and not be a future candidate for "WTF D&D".
Quote from: Spinachcat;689052Body horror sets off people's reactions because human reproduction is so strange and grotesque when viewed in any kind of alternate context. There's a reason why the playwright Edward Albee called sex "bumping uglies" and many authors have looked at pregnancy as the presence of a parasite.
No, they haven't. Dworkin's misanthropic looney cheering section might be vocal on the internet, but that's a result of the amplification effect emerging from the democratising power of the web rather than there being more of them. Feel free to wheel out a reading list of a dozen books where 'pregnancy as parasitism' is a feature and I'll direct you to twelve thousand others where it isn't.
If human reproduction is strange and grotesque so is all other reproduction, and don't dwell too long on eating your cornflakes in the morning because the monstrous manner in which you masticate using uneven bony protrusions from your skull, gorge the resultant mess down, and disperse it through your organs via mordant acids and semi permeable membranes will surely drive you shrieking across the boundaries of madness itself.
And don't even ask what happens afterwards.
Quote from: Spinachcat;689052Body horror works because its transgressive. Body horror monsters cause fear in the reader and the viewer because they cross boundaries of "decency" and scratch at both our sexual fears and our sexual fetishes.
A swing and a miss. Or rather more of the nutbag associating everything with sex, combined with a hat tip to 'transgressives' that are in reality amateur shock jocks trying to push peoples' buttons to get them to buy stuff cos that's how ya makes teh monies, amirite?
Done well, by a master like Clive Barker say, it can work. Done by the likes of Timmy McHack the armchair auteur, its true character oozes through immediately. It shows a lack of talent, reaching for the cheapest possible buttons to press in lieu of actual imagination.
I have nothing but contempt for idiots like that.
Quote from: Spinachcat;689052But in RPGs, monsters are statblocks that exist to be killed. If anyone asks "how do they make half-orcs?", you step into questionable territory especially on a forum frequented by old men. Transgressive topics in general (and any innovation that may occur in body horror genres) is the domain of the young.
If you were ten years old when the first Alien movie came out, you'd be what, 45 now? The seventies saw a lot of that sort of thing. Weave World came out in 1987, and it shits large all over the most fevered dreams of the 'transgressive' lobby. Hell, Mary Shelley was rocking the body horror in
1816.
It's not new, it's not cutting edge, and it's definetely not interesting. You constantly see the same thing in software - some hotshot tween comes out with a program that fixes a certain problem followed by a round of backslapping for the innovation, only to be told the same exact thing had been done in 1972, 1986 and 1994 and they could have saved a lot of time just by knowing more. Unless by 'young' you mean 'ignorant'.
All of the infinite wonders and possibilities of the imagination to call upon and this is the best some people can do.
Just as an aside, I heard the phrase "perfect parasite" from my ex-wife when she was pregnant with our first daughter. And it is true. An unborn fetus/embryo/whatever takes exactly what it needs from the host/mother/parent/etc.
And if you think too much about other things the body does it gets quiet icky. Obligatory XKCD on Dreaming (http://xkcd.com/203/).
Quote from: thedungeondelver;689038I think it would if you hammered on the "Women get raped/impregnated by the xenomorphs, they're its main prey".
To be fair, the very first film in the franchise ably demonstrated that this isn't actually the case.
Quote from: CRKrueger;688981Well Ben Rogers got his thread closed rather abruptly, are we gonna get all Glorantha threads closed because of Broo?
What I would do with the Uzmek is retain the essential horror of the creature without making it "rapey". Having contamination by the creature's blood reproduces the creature not by having it's blood essentially be it's semen, but by having it's blood contain the virus, parasite, magical curse that turns ANY creature, male or female, into one of these beings. Take gender out of the equation, take traditional biological reproductive fluids out of the equation and leave the monster as is, in the rulebook.
People who complain then, may as well complain about Zombies, the X-Files and all the works of David Cronenberg or the Body Horror genre in general.
So, you do have a third option, one which should keep both groups off your back as well as have the monster fill it's desired role in the setting.
See, what you have done there is create an interesting creature that can have a place in the game world, sets up a lot of potential scenarios beyond just horror, and isn't exploitative of any particular subset of the population. And it's pretty cool! You've clearly thought about it. I can't imagine you having typed that up... one-handed, shall we say.
What you didn't do is stumble into a topic to tell us about your awesome rape monster that upset people on another forum who just don't appreciate your genius (Oh, and by the way, please support our kickstarter kthxbi).
Quote from: The Traveller;689068Done well, by a master like Clive Barker say, it can work. Done by the likes of Timmy McHack the armchair auteur, its true character oozes through immediately. It shows a lack of talent, reaching for the cheapest possible buttons to press in lieu of actual imagination.
I have nothing but contempt for idiots like that.
Even Clive Barker would have been an armchair auteur once; you have to go through that phase to become a master, and that doesn't make your later work any less valid. I'm sure there's quite a bit of unreleased tat that he wrote while honing his craft (Frankly, anyone who claims they became a great anything without practice is a liar). But part of going through the phase, is leaving it behind...
Quote from: Ladybird;689089unreleased
The key word here.
There are plenty of places where offcolour fanfiction is welcomed with open arms, or at least nobody notices it amid the great drifts of other such inspired works.
What annoyed me was this 'new hotness' bollocks, whereas in reality it's just a flock of greasy poseurs warming over stuff that was interesting a quarter of a century ago and trying to peddle it as having no previous owners.
It's not new, it's old and busted, made worse by the way they're banging it off the hyperventilating rape-obsessed in the hopes of generating cheap sensation (a primary reason for this scouring of the bottom of the barrel), not pushing the boundaries of expression.
This is a trend I'm starting to notice more among other concepts too - that fail forward concept really means 'fail'. Partial failure tables were done in solo gamebooks back in the 80s, and they only have limited utility today unless you're using a very light system.
Yes, you'll have to work quite hard and really know what you're doing, what came before, if you want to make something new and interesting. Talent is helpful too.
Quote from: Ladybird;689089What you didn't do is stumble into a topic to tell us about your awesome rape monster that upset people on another forum who just don't appreciate your genius (Oh, and by the way, please support our kickstarter kthxbi).
There's a number of responders out there who feel that way, I didn't get that vibe. He admitted the problem with the monster, and specifically said it was not going to be in the official book. Maybe I just had a different reaction because I already knew the monster existed from Dan Davenport's review (I think Dan might be the one who coined "rape ogre").
Anyway, I think he can include the monster with modification and still please both groups, which was the original question.
Quote from: Warthur;689081To be fair, the very first film in the franchise ably demonstrated that this isn't actually the case.
Right, and I agree 100%; just saying that
if the examples I gave were the ones presented, there'd be a hue and cry about the xenomorphs.
Just as an aside, and to inject some well-needed humor into this thread, every time I read "Uzmek" I hear this in my head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCCCRAcTAA
Quote from: Ladybird;689089Even Clive Barker would have been an armchair auteur once; you have to go through that phase to become a master, and that doesn't make your later work any less valid. I'm sure there's quite a bit of unreleased tat that he wrote while honing his craft (Frankly, anyone who claims they became a great anything without practice is a liar). But part of going through the phase, is leaving it behind...
"I paid my dues in a different medium. I wrote for the theater -- I was a playwright, and an illustrator. Neither of these professions made me money. I had tinkered around with some stories for friends and for my own amusement, and I gave them to my theater agent who sent them off to Livia Gollancz at Victor Gollancz publishers." --Clive Barker in a 1987 interview with Dennis Etchison, which was later published as "A Little Bit of Hamlet" in
Shadows in Eden.
Gollancz rejected the stories out of hand (
"The story goes that Livia took hold of her pearls and said, 'Eurgh! Get these off my desk and out of my company immediately!', which they've since regretted, of course"), and they eventually ended up at Sphere Books who made them the starting point for
Books of Blood.
Quote from: gamerGoyf;689018Of course rape monsters aren't always a terrible idea. Alien is a classic of the horror genera it's about a all about rape monsters. You just have to handle the material with finesse that Ben Rogers clearly lacks.
For one thing, you don't call it a "rape monster." Nobody calls the alien "a rape monster." They might call it a xenomorph, but it's horror rather speaks for itself. Horror generally does that anyway. It leaves implications and innuendo and lets you come to the horrifying, hair-raising conclusions all on your own, instead of stopping to explain why you should totally be scared, like a bad comedian trying to defend his joke to his confused audience.
Quote from: Mailanka;689119For one thing, you don't call it a "rape monster." Nobody calls the alien "a rape monster." They might call it a xenomorph, but it's horror rather speaks for itself. Horror generally does that anyway. It leaves implications and innuendo and lets you come to the horrifying, hair-raising conclusions all on your own, instead of stopping to explain why you should totally be scared, like a bad comedian trying to defend his joke to his confused audience.
"Show, don't tell." Yup.
(wonders idly if ANYone would defend the concept if, say, it were men who were exclusively raped and impregnated by these monsters)
Quote from: Ravenswing;689127(wonders idly if ANYone would defend the concept if, say, it were men who were exclusively raped and impregnated by these monsters)
Nice thread-crap.
To try and drag things back on-topic, I think part of the reason the Uzmeks don't work is that they are simply presented in a crass way without nuance. (Xenomorphs in Alien don't provoke the same outrage, but equally the presentation of the xenomorphs in Alien were something Dan O'Bannon sweated over through multiple script rewrites and Ridley Scott was careful to set up with his direction: it could have very
But I also think part of the reason the Uzmeks generate so much heat is that they sound like a bad joke. I mean, seriously, they're monsters with semen for blood. That goes well beyond weird fantasy and well into the realm of full-on goofball stupidity; they resemble a juvenile joke someone might come up with in the middle of a game session and then everyone laughs about and then forgets about, not something you release in a printed product (or even as officially-endorsed material to support it).
Given how much of a hot-button topic rape is, at the very least when you address it you should take it seriously, or at least not make it into an idiotic snigger-fest. The Uzmeks are impossible to take seriously, because they have spunk for blood and how is that anything other than completely stupid?
Basically, they designed a monster which wouldn't be out of place in FATAL. And when your game content starts looking like something from out of FATAL, you need to think again.
Quote from: Ravenswing;689127(wonders idly if ANYone would defend the concept if, say, it were men who were exclusively raped and impregnated by these monsters)
No. That's equally bad. On the other hand...
Quote from: CRKrueger;689111There's a number of responders out there who feel that way, I didn't get that vibe. He admitted the problem with the monster, and specifically said it was not going to be in the official book. Maybe I just had a different reaction because I already knew the monster existed from Dan Davenport's review (I think Dan might be the one who coined "rape ogre").
Anyway, I think he can include the monster with modification and still please both groups, which was the original question.
Your redo of the concept was quite good. Squicky without being shit.
Quote from: One Horse Town;689133Nice thread-crap.
This whole thread is a thread crap.
There are two good reasons for including a monster in a game: 1) they are awesome and/or 2) they help convey the tone of the game. The Uzmek isn't awesome and there was nothing uniquely interesting about it to make its conclusion worthwhile. But I thought the very relevant part is that neither of those were the motivations for creating or adding the creature in the first place. It was designed as a joke/petty vendetta against players. That alone makes the whole thing not worth anyone's time.
Quote from: Ravenswing;689127(wonders idly if ANYone would defend the concept if, say, it were men who were exclusively raped and impregnated by these monsters)
Actually I would (though defend may be a bit of a strong word, I just don't feel any moral obligations to be against that monster, so to speak, though the concept was stupid). Hells, I'd design the monster first to be unisexual in the first place, so to speak. Less about spunk for blood, and more about something like Alien I suspect, with laying eggs inside someone. Or having that blood turn the host's body into the Uzmek's female (which'd probably be something out of Kafka's Metamorphosis or I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream, because if you're going full on body horror, why stop in the middle of the way). Though I'd probably change it from blood to some poison released from the tail of the creature, have those ogres look like a combination of an ogre and a scorpion.
In fact, come to think of it, that could be a pretty sweet weapon in an arsenal of some fantasy supervillain, if that poison'd be set to change the victim after a few weeks/days - have them stung, then let them return to the village/city. Then, poison first takes over victim's mind, making them seek out a reclusive, shadowy and damp spot (because eggs need that, why the hell not), then finish the change process, and bam - humanoid infiltration bomb.
Does the "rape ogre" have the special ability: Dire Penetration?
/barf
/snark off
Quote from: Ravenswing;689127(wonders idly if ANYone would defend the concept if, say, it were men who were exclusively raped and impregnated by these monsters)
Probably
NOT John Hurt or Ned Beatty.....
- Ed C.
Quote from: The Traveller;689149This whole thread is a thread crap.
Thank you; that was
my thought, anyway.
Alien. It's about rape. One of the best monster movies of all time.
Aliens. It's about Vietnam. One of the best monster movies of all time.
The other Alien movies. They're about monsters from space. They... range from mediocre to not bad.
If you want to really get to people, you sometimes gotta go in deep and push nasty buttons. It can be done in ways that are crude, juvenile, and stupid or it can be done with great craft and skill.
No idea should be off the table.
I think there's a necessity to pick the right idea for the right table. Are the gamers you're playing with going to be up for an exploration of rape/Vietnam/whatever? More to the point, are they people you even want to raise those subjects with yourself? I have some friends I am happy to explore anything with without boundaries, and other friends who I'm not keen to talk about some subjects, either because I know it upsets them or because I know they have egregiously stupid opinions about the subject in question and I don't want to be subjected to their ridiculous views.
Quote from: TristramEvans;689150There are two good reasons for including a monster in a game: 1) they are awesome and/or 2) they help convey the tone of the game. The Uzmek isn't awesome and there was nothing uniquely interesting about it to make its conclusion worthwhile. But I thought the very relevant part is that neither of those were the motivations for creating or adding the creature in the first place. It was designed as a joke/petty vendetta against players. That alone makes the whole thing not worth anyone's time.
The bolded:
No, it was not.
Your comment is putting the finger on how too many seems to view the monster, though.
However, i did read the OP of that closed thread, and unless i remember it wrong, the "rape ogre" was designed to be "a monster so terrible and despiceable that everyone would want it to become utterly and completely destroyed".
Like a monster of monsters.
I would not use that kind of monster, but as i see it, it was clearly not meant as a joke, but a monster so gross that even a Chaotic Evil Orc would band together with a Paladin, just to destroy it.
The intention ... is interesting, but i dare say they actually succeeded too well.
It do not seem like the intention was to make a rape monster, but it was the result.
And yes, the Geiger Aliens is a kind of rape monsters, they are just indiscriminate about gender, and i guess that is part of why they are "accepted".
As for how half-orcs are made in a world where all orcs are chaotic and/or evil: To speak of consensuality if both are chaotic and or evil is to miss the entire point of consenual agreement.
Someone evil may rather prefer that it isn't consensual, and someone chaotic do not bother about consensuality at all. Put together ... two chaotics may be seen as consensual since neither bother ... but it can just as well be that one of them don't feel for it, and the other do not care.
Result:
Normally not consensual.
It was a creature designed " so that no player would want to take it as a PC race". Maybe it's uncharitable of me, but seeing as that was listed as the primary reason for the creatire's creation, that suggests to me that the motivation was based on a dislike of players wanting to play monsters as races. And if you dislike that it's fine, but it's like saying "I'm sick of those damn kids wanting to play with all my toys, so I'll pee all over this one".
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;689204Alien. It's about rape........
NO, it isn't.
It's an attempt to do a classic 'Haunted House' movie - but set in space with some actual fear and terror involved.
There are plenty of True and Urban myth stories of insects and such planting eggs in parts of human bodies - the first movie was just that idea amped up to '11+" in scale.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;689236NO, it isn't.
It's an attempt to do a classic 'Haunted House' movie - but set in space with some actual fear and terror involved.
There are plenty of True and Urban myth stories of insects and such planting eggs in parts of human bodies - the first movie was just that idea amped up to '11+" in scale.
- Ed C.
Quoted for truth. Body horror isn't about rape, it's about violation on a fundamental level. It has more to do with cancer than rape. There's a lot of vaguely sexual themes with the Alien, but at no point is it portrayed as a sexual assault-- it's more like a disease or nasty case of crabs. See the repeated medical motifs in Alien, and the insect motifs in Aliens. Also, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Quote from: TristramEvans;689232It was a creature designed " so that no player would want to take it as a PC race". Maybe it's uncharitable of me, but seeing as that was listed as the primary reason for the creatire's creation, that suggests to me that the motivation was based on a dislike of players wanting to play monsters as races. And if you dislike that it's fine, but it's like saying "I'm sick of those damn kids wanting to play with all my toys, so I'll pee all over this one".
Mm, I wouldn't quite phrase it that way. More like "I'm sick of those damn kids wanting to play with all my toys, and I don't have the balls to Just Say No, so I'll go all passive-aggressive and pee all over this one."
Quote from: Koltar;689236NO, it isn't.
It's an attempt to do a classic 'Haunted House' movie - but set in space with some actual fear and terror involved.
There are plenty of True and Urban myth stories of insects and such planting eggs in parts of human bodies - the first movie was just that idea amped up to '11+" in scale.
- Ed C.
Wrong again; it's a remake of
It! The Terror From Space with bits of
Voyage of the Space Beagle mixed in.
It was based on a script for The Cat From Outer Space 2: Lassie's Revenge
You guys got it all wrong. It's a remake of Snoopy, the Peanuts and the Spider Face-mask from Outer Space.
Quote from: Catelf;689228and someone chaotic do not bother about consensuality at all.
What the fuck? Chaotic does not mean "doesn't care if it's rape or not".
Not caring about consent when it comes to sex is squarely evil.
No, I am Ellen Ripley.
On Alien:
"One thing that people are all disturbed about is sex... I said 'That's how I'm going to attack the audience; I'm going to attack them sexually. And I'm not going to go after the women in the audience, I'm going to attack the men. I am going to put in every image I can think of to make the men in the audience cross their legs. Homosexual oral rape, birth. The thing lays its eggs down your throat, the whole number.'"
-screenwriter Dan O'Bannon
http://www.cracked.com/article_18932_alien-film-franchise-based-entirely-rape.html
There was another interview where O'Bannon dropped the deeply disturbing yet fascinating bombshell that his original Starbeast (proto-Alien) screenplay was "Inspired by a terrifying sexual experience" that he personally had.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;689282There was another interview where O'Bannon dropped the deeply disturbing yet fascinating bombshell that his original Starbeast (proto-Alien) screenplay was "Inspired by a terrifying sexual experience" that he personally had.
Geez. At least H. R. Giger's artwork is inspired just by his night terrors. One hopes...
Quote from: Evansheer;689271What the fuck? Chaotic does not mean "doesn't care if it's rape or not".
Not caring about consent when it comes to sex is squarely evil.
"Chaoticevil" and "Lawfulgood," as run-on portmanteaus, have been in broad circulation in D&D circles for decades now.
Reason #51 to give alignment the finger.
Quote from: Evansheer;689287Geez. At least H. R. Giger's artwork is inspired just by his night terrors. One hopes...
Oh, do you think that some of Geigers terrors isn't sexual in nature?
....
I think there is even quotes from him admitting that some of his horrors is very sexual in nature ...
And no, not caring if it is consensual or not is not evil, evil is to do something to someone who explicitly do not want it, i.e. non-consensual only.
Not Caring is not squarely evil, it is more chaotic.
Also, requiring consent is something that is very much lawful.(It is not for nothing it is one of three "laws" within S/M.)
Quote from: Warthur;689215I don't want to be subjected to their ridiculous views.
You know, some days I feel this way about the entire human race.
(Occasionally even including myself, oddly enough.)
Quote from: Benoist;689257You guys got it all wrong. It's a remake of Snoopy, the Peanuts and the Spider Face-mask from Outer Space.
Arrgh, Snoopy. The Drizzt
and the Elminster of the PeanutVerse.
/rant off