I never got around to picking up the old Fuzion powered one from Gold Rush, it always seemed kind of light in the loafers and I was never hot on Fuzion. I think I tried to order it from a sale once, but the site was broken or some nonsense like that.
Anyway, apparently there's a new Usagi game out now. I know it's a bigger book, and I know it's from the furries at Sanguine, the same guys who did the *claw series. Alls I know about them is that they're furry games, and I seem to recall hearing they had some kind of clunky multi-dice-type pool system.
But that latter bit could be faulty memory.
Tell me about the new Usagi? Is the resource material good? Does it delve well into the feudal Japan setting? Is it overly fixated on the characters happening to be animals? What's the system like, and does it suck? Is it compatible with their other games, enough so that I could also grab their Albedo game and mash them together to make Space Usagi?
These are things I wish to know. Does anyone here still know enough about games that aren't D&D to tell me any of them?
The idea of Usagi being taken over by furries hurts my soul.
Quote from: J Arcane;371810These are things I wish to know. Does anyone here still know enough about games that aren't D&D to tell me any of them?
Sadly I don't know abut Usagi Yojimbo the RPG. I've experience with IronClaw/Jadeclaw (which are only furry in the same sense as Usagi Yojimbo is furry--that is an anthropomorphic representation of animal characters.) Otherwise IronClaw is a medieval fantasy setting with interesting magic and politics. Jadeclaw is a chinese Wuxia game set in the same world (a bit more "magic" on that side in terms of races for example adding mythic ones to the list like Dragon, and and Phoenix) the core rulebooks don't detail much beyond the hint of the setting and rules. (Supplements cover most of the setting.) I don't recall any mention of furries, sex, plushies, or any of that. It's just a pair of fantasy games with animals instead of people. (Think Disney's Robin Hood but bloodier/more violent)
I was wondering about picking it up, and/or the newer Albedo, but reading more on the new Albedo puts me of of the system. Ironclaw/Jadeclaw are about as crunchy as D&D, with multi-step dice for skills/race/etc being important.
RPGnet says it uses the same system as Ironclaw.
That does not sound promising. I am not especially fond of Fuzion, but mostly because it just isn't anything special. Ironclaw sounds actively unpleasant and complicated.
Also, Greg Stolze wrote the Fuzion book, and people seem to like him. So that' be a in point in favor of getting the old book instead.
I own the Sanguine Usagi book, so I can answer the questions.
No, it's not a "furries book" (and neither are the 'claw books). There's no people in animal costumes yiffing or anything like that. All of the art is by Stan Sakai. The system is mostly compatible with 'claw, though simplified a little bit. The basic system is that your race, career, stats, and skills are rated as dice (So maybe you have Rabbit 1d6, Samurai 1d10, Body 1d6, and Blades 1d8. If you are attacking with a sword, you roll each die that can be applied... Body and Blades are appropriate, and your career of Samurai fits in, but being a Rabbit does not (it might help something like a listening check or jumping.) If your highest rolled die result beats the opponent's highest rolled die, or the DC, you succeed. There are quite a few combat options, like counter-attack, parry, dodge, etc. Different kinds of weapons have different special effects on a critical hit, which is nice (a blunt weapon might concuss or crush, while a slashing weapon might cleave).
There is quite a bit of source material... the first 41 pages are history, culture, and geography of feudal Japan. The next 10 pages gives an overview of the characters, and except for a note after the name (like "Male Cat Ninja"), it doesn't focus on race at all.
I'd say the system is more complex than Fuzion, which I find boring and unremarkable, but has more options and choices once you learn it. It really isn't too much harder (or different) than Cortex, which also has die types for stats and skills, and Savage Worlds uses a similar idea.
Sounds cool Samurai, I like the idea of the claw systems but find them a bit over my crunch hurdle as a GM, I've played in a Jadeclaw game and had fun (my dog PC used magic which I think added to the complexity.)
Quote from: Silverlion;371840Sounds cool Samurai, I like the idea of the claw systems but find them a bit over my crunch hurdle as a GM, I've played in a Jadeclaw game and had fun (my dog PC used magic which I think added to the complexity.)
It's definitely not a rules-lite game. It's a little heavier on combat rules than my taste too, but the rules are interesting and non-combat skill tests and such are quick and easy. One thing I'm not fond of is the Reeling rule. Basically, any time you are hit in combat, you are sent Reeling. That means you can't take any actions or reactions except dodge, and attackers get a bonus 1d12 to hit you. On your turn, Recover from Reeling is a standard action, leaving only a move action that you can do. So, it's quite possible a character could go round after round getting hit, sent reeling and lose his attack, recover, get hit and sent reeling again, etc. until the attacker finally misses you. And if you're facing multiple opponents, it's even worse. Luckily, there is a Gift (advantage) called Resolve which negates reeling from minor hits, and can 1 time negate it from a more serious hit. That makes it nearly a requirement to have, IMHO, and personally, I'd give it free to any character who is trained in combat. Otherwise, it's so important it's almost a "feat tax". With that Gift, though, I think the system is tactically interesting and well done.
I quite enjoyed the Fuzion version. The system was light enough to stay out of the way, and the players dug the representation of the races and classes.
We played it on several occasions for one-shots and it was always a great experience. The Monsters! sourcebook was full of great scenario ideas and hooks to integrate the creatures into campaigns or make scenarios around them. There were a few web resources (official ones) like new species, new jobs, etc. that I wish had been collected somewhere in print rather than just an article for Pyramid Online or what-have-you.
I keep seeing copies of the GRG edition at Half-Price Books and mean to pick up a second copy.
I have the Sanguine copy, but the combat rules (oh, that reeling!) turned me off. I was a member of the Yahoo group for a while, and remember considerable errata showing up that made me think "Hmm..." and change my mind about adopting the new edition.
I own both versions of Usagi Yojimbo (Gold Rush Games and Sanguine Productions), I like the Gold Rush version, despite its defects, and I'm madly in love with the Sanguine version.
Quote from: J Arcane;371810Anyway, apparently there's a new Usagi game out now. I know it's a bigger book, and I know it's from the furries at Sanguine, the same guys who did the *claw series. Alls I know about them is that they're furry games, and I seem to recall hearing they had some kind of clunky multi-dice-type pool system.
The system used in Sanguine UY is a simplification of the system used in Ironclaw/Jadeclaw. Basically, your stats and skills are measured in dice, as in Savage Worlds and Cortex, that is, you can have Body 1d8 or Swords 1d10. When you want to do something, you roll the dice you have in stat+skill+profession (professions give bonus dice to some skills) and you take the highest die, and compare it to a target number. If your roll is higher you succeed.
I'm a firm believer in roll under and roll over systems, and a detractor of die pools, because I find them clunky, but I must say that I found the die pools of SUY very intuitive and not clunky at all, for two reasons:
-A basic rule of SUY is that you NEVER add anything, ever. You roll the dice, take the highest one, and that's all, there are no +1 or -2. You just roll and compare it to the target number.
-You don't usually roll big buckets of dice. Normally you roll two dice (one for the skill and one for the stat), sometimes one when you have no skill, and sometimes three if your profession gives you a bonus die. Rolling four dice is possible but rare, and rolling five dice is pretty badass.
QuoteTell me about the new Usagi? Is the resource material good? Does it delve well into the feudal Japan setting? Is it overly fixated on the characters happening to be animals? What's the system like, and does it suck? Is it compatible with their other games, enough so that I could also grab their Albedo game and mash them together to make Space Usagi?
The SUY corebook contains information about Feudal Japan, some history, some geography, culture and customs, etc, but in my opinion the best part is the system. Systemwise it is the best chanbara and samurai RPG, ever. Nor Legend of the Five Rings, nor Sengoku.
I already described the basic roll system. One of the best bits of the system is the use of Gifts, Gifts are like Feats in D&D, they allow you to do the cool stuff you see in Usagi Yojimbo comics, or in chanbara movies. Fast draws (iaijutsu), deflect arrows, spring and attack from the air, avoid damage, etc.
The system is not rule-lite, but nor rule-heavy either. The amount of crunch could be compared to Savage Worlds.
Is it overly fixated on the characters happening to be animals? Not at all. As in the Usagi Yojimbo comic, characters are anthropomorphic animals, but if you don't like it it is easy to ignore, in both Gold Rush UY and Sanguine UY. And no, no version of UY includes the sick stuff some people link with furries, you have no reason to fear.
As I said, I'm madly in love with Sanguine UY, but I should also say what is not so pretty:
-It doesn't contain a bestiary. In the Usagi Yojimbo comics, most of his enemies were other people, but sometimes he fought some beast. A shame. Gold Rush UY didn't have a bestiary either, but a supplement, Monsters, was eventually published. It's excellent and very recommendable, by the way. It's a pity the Sanguine people didn't publish one.
-The combat system is very tactical. For me this is a virtue, not a defect, I like tactical combat systems. But you might not like them. You have been warned.
I have no idea regarding compatibility, I have no idea about Albedo, and I don't know Ironclaw or Jadeclaw very well.
I feel I should say something about Gold Rush UY. For me it's kind of a heartbreaker, I wanted to like it, but it has some severe defects. The system could be defined as Fuzion Lite, it's very simple and easy to grok, and it has the heart in the right place. The combat system uses a rock-paper-scissors system, and here is where we find its first severe defect. One of the options, Total Defense, is underpowered, which breaks the system. Fortunately the rock-paper-scissors system can be ignored (I recall Jason told me he did this, please correct me if I'm wrong :)) or houseruled (I have some ideas).
In short, get both! And if you have to choose, get the Sanguine version :)
Quote from: samurai007;371861One thing I'm not fond of is the Reeling rule. Basically, any time you are hit in combat, you are sent Reeling. That means you can't take any actions or reactions except dodge, and attackers get a bonus 1d12 to hit you. On your turn, Recover from Reeling is a standard action, leaving only a move action that you can do.
I loved the Reeling rule. It represents very well the "SON OF A BITCH!!! THAT HURT!!!" feeling. It's similar, but not the same, to Shaken in Savage Worlds.
QuoteSo, it's quite possible a character could go round after round getting hit, sent reeling and lose his attack, recover, get hit and sent reeling again, etc. until the attacker finally misses you. And if you're facing multiple opponents, it's even worse. Luckily, there is a Gift (advantage) called Resolve which negates reeling from minor hits, and can 1 time negate it from a more serious hit. That makes it nearly a requirement to have, IMHO, and personally, I'd give it free to any character who is trained in combat. Otherwise, it's so important it's almost a "feat tax". With that Gift, though, I think the system is tactically interesting and well done.
In theory that might happen, but in actual play it doesn't, at least in my experience. The reason why it doesn't happen in practice is because it's extremely difficult, I would say almost impossible, to be hit several times and just suffer reeling. Damage in SUY is
very nasty, PCs and important NPCs usually have special Gifts that protect them from damage, but once they are exhausted (Gifts can get exhausted after being used), if you're hit with a weapon you're toast. Besides, when you're reeling you can only dodge and your opponent gets a 1d12 bonus to hit you (easier to get a crit!), well, it's possible your character might not recover from reeling, ever! :D
Yes, Resolve is one of those Gifts that don't seem to be that good if you have it, but if you don't have it, you think "Why the hell didn't I take it?!"
Quote from: Claudius;371896Fortunately the rock-paper-scissors system can be ignored (I recall Jason told me he did this, please correct me if I'm wrong :)) or houseruled (I have some ideas).
I did indeed!
This came from reading the combat rules summary and going "How the hell does this mesh with the rock/paper/scissors system?" I emailed Greg Stolze, who essentially said "I guess it doesn't."
He hadn't put that combat summary in there in his manuscript... it was just part of the Fuzion Lite "package" and just got stuck in.
We played and realized that we liked the normal Fuzion system better than the r/p/s system (it doesn't work so well with missile weapons, for example), so we just fixed the few job powers that used the cards, and we used the normal system from there.
Quote from: samurai007;371832I own the Sanguine Usagi book, so I can answer the questions.
No, it's not a "furries book" (and neither are the 'claw books). There's no people in animal costumes yiffing or anything like that.
That doesn't mean its not a "furries" book. It also doesn't mean that most of the people who own the book aren't "people in animal costumes yiffing", etc., and may in fact use the book as part of furthering their own little hobby of animal-fetish-themed sexual deviancy.
it just means that as far as furry rpg books go its relatively innocuous.
RPGPundit
Claudius summed it very well. The combat system is very interesting. One thing I like is that it's not quite a I hit/you hit system. If someone attacks you and you use your (usually) one counterattack and you roll higher, they get hurt. There is also an interupt system where you can hold your action and be prepared for someone to attack you and attack them first if you desire or do other actions like move before they attack you (so you don't stand there whil someone charges you like happens in most systems. Tactics and actions often give an extra d12 or two to one side or the other and these can make a real difference to the outcome (much more so that the +2 or +4 in D20).
Some of the gifts are also powered by separate pools of very limited resources. So you might have a gift that allows you to reduce the damage of a hit (very useful for a combat character) but you can only use it once or twice before you're exhausted. The effect is that, in addition to actual wounds (and the system can get people in a coma quickly), you become exhausted and your fighting ability is degraded.
The intended system is such that a well built beginning character can take on 2-3 mooks and usually win. A more experienced character could take out 5-10 mooks. This matches the comic and most samurai movies where real samurai stride through the scrubs.
It's not particularly furry. Species determines two starting gifts. You could easily replace these with regional or class starting feats and have a human samurai game. The Usagi Yojimbo comic is less furry than Bugs Bunny. The characters are all animals (mainly for ease of drawing according to the author) but their animalness is never explored.
As Claudius said, a limitation of the game is that it is tailored to the comic so there is no bestiary and no magic system.
I've only browsed jadeclaw. I'd say that they are generally compatible but not an exact fit. Usagi is a cleaner, faster system.
I guess what I meant by the comment about "Is it overly fixated on the characters happening to be animals?" is that Usagi isn't about the characters being animals. They're animals largely because Sakai drew a picture of a rabbit samurai and thought it looked neat, and kept with it because it furthered one of his other goals of educating young people about Japan.
Sometimes it's referenced directly, most of the time it's just an aesthetic choice, a symbol of the personality of the character. There isn't the sense that they're there because the author has a "thing" for walking talking rabbits or whatever, nor do I remember them being often given particularly animalistic traits. It's just that it came from a time when making cartoons with walking talking rabbits was a perfectly normal thing to do, before anime and yiffing drove the general tastes away from such things.
Exactly. Usagi is as much a "furry game" as Star Wars is, with it's Walrus Men, Hammerhead Ithorians, Ewoks, Ugnaught pig-men, lizard-like Bosk and Rodians, rabbit-like Lepi, and most famous of all: Chewbacca.
I would like to give a ditto to,
Nicephorus,
J Arcane,
Samurai007
Oh and Pundit correct me if I'm wrong your down with "TMNT and Other Strangeness", but you have a problem with the "Usagi Yojimbo RPG"? I guess we'll ignore that neither comic is based on creepy furry bullshit, eh? But TNMT is more apart of your background and tastes so its ok right?
I really liked the fuzion version (commonly known as Instant Fuzion) which is a cut down fuzion. it plays fast. I am a fuzion fan so I have a bias. I tried the sanguine version but the dice pool system felt very clunky and I really didn't like the combat implementation. Both editions seem to have its fans.
if your looking for something in fuedal japan, Sengoku is really cool (but oh so much to remember!).
So, anything that features anthropoid animals is "furry", as in "I want to have kinky sex with a furball?" ... 'kay... :rolleyes:
It's idiotic, in the Umberto Eco sense of the term: it seems vaguely logical, but if you think about it for about a quarter of a second, the self-evident lack of any conceivable sense of the statement blindingly shines through.
QuoteSo, anything that features anthropoid animals is "furry", as in "I want to have kinky sex with a furball?" ... 'kay...
That is literally the exact opposite of what I and everyone else in this thread were saying.
You couldn't fail harder if you tried. Congrats.
Quote from: Ronin;372026Oh and Pundit correct me if I'm wrong your down with "TMNT and Other Strangeness", but you have a problem with the "Usagi Yojimbo RPG"? I guess we'll ignore that neither comic is based on creepy furry bullshit, eh? But TNMT is more apart of your background and tastes so its ok right?
I don't read Pundit as having any real problems with Usagi Yojimbo but if you're right you can always blow his frickin' mind with the several Usagi-TMNT crossover comics that are out there.
Quote from: Ronin;372026Oh and Pundit correct me if I'm wrong your down with "TMNT and Other Strangeness", but you have a problem with the "Usagi Yojimbo RPG"? I guess we'll ignore that neither comic is based on creepy furry bullshit, eh? But TNMT is more apart of your background and tastes so its ok right?
Both Usagi Yojimbo and TMNT were absolutely "furry" comics; but from a time before "Furry" came to meant "two men dressed up as female wolves jacking each other off while looking at drawings of preteen lion-boys being raped by a hyperendowed giraffe wearing diapers".
The only difference between the two games now is that TMNT was published by Palladium, which is clearly not a furry-run company, and the new Usagi Yojimbo is published by the people who did Jadeclaw, which are very clearly furries, in this day and age when the definition of furry has gone from the old-days of "liking comics of anthropomorphic animal characters doing normal shit" to the hyperendowed diaper-wearing lion-boy raping giraffe fetish mentioned above.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Benoist;372044So, anything that features anthropoid animals is "furry", as in "I want to have kinky sex with a furball?" ... 'kay... :rolleyes:
I haven't read the latest edition of the Usagi Yojimbo RPG; I have read Jadeclaw, and at least from my cursory read it had nothing visibly in the system itself about perverted furry-sex.
So yeah, you could totally play either game in a completely healthy way that involved no degenerate Furry-Perversion. But even then, every second of every minute of playing the game, you might remember that nine-tenths of the people who do play this game, including maybe some of the very people at your table (was someone there REALLY eager to play this particular game? Maybe someone has a favorite animal-type that he seems to be really getting into?) are people who get off on cannibalistic hermaphrodite dog-people urinating on zebra "cubs".
Just remember that, as you play.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Imp;372082I don't read Pundit as having any real problems with Usagi Yojimbo but if you're right you can always blow his frickin' mind with the several Usagi-TMNT crossover comics that are out there.
Just like TMNT, I really liked the Usagi Yojimbo comics, back in the day when Furry hadn't been totally subverted by a gang of sexual degenerates who ruined that hobby.
RPGPundit
Quote from: J Arcane;372045That is literally the exact opposite of what I and everyone else in this thread were saying.
You couldn't fail harder if you tried. Congrats.
Dude. My post was in answer to the Pundit's allegations. I got that you and most people on the thread don't share his feelings.
Nice Fail on your part, though. :D
Quote from: Benoist;372305Dude. My post was in answer to the Pundit's allegations. I got that you and most people on the thread don't share his feelings.
Nice Fail on your part, though. :D
Well, his clarification makes it clear that really wasn't what he meant either. At least not in the way you put it.
The difference between him and I is I'm still not convinced there was ever a time when furry was "normal". But the basic point that there's what we think of now as "furry", and stuff that just has animal people in it, is mostly the same.
Quote from: RPGPundit;372293Just like TMNT, I really liked the Usagi Yojimbo comics, back in the day when Furry hadn't been totally subverted by a gang of sexual degenerates who ruined that hobby.
RPGPundit
I still like Usagi Yojimbo comics, and read them every chance I get. I wish I could afford the cash to collect them.
Ain't no way I'm letting a bunch of pervert fanboys ruin one of the most awesome comics in the history of the medium.
Especially not Space Usagi. That shit was better Star Wars than Star Wars.
Quote from: RPGPunditThe only difference between the two games now is that TMNT was published by Palladium, which is clearly not a furry-run company, and the new Usagi Yojimbo is published by the people who did Jadeclaw, which are very clearly furries, in this day and age when the definition of furry has gone from the old-days of "liking comics of anthropomorphic animal characters doing normal shit" to the hyperendowed diaper-wearing lion-boy raping giraffe fetish mentioned above.
Then,
Quote from: RPGPundithaven't read the latest edition of the Usagi Yojimbo RPG; I have read Jadeclaw, and at least from my cursory read it had nothing visibly in the system itself about perverted furry-sex.
Really? Because that not what you just said. I mean at least wait a couple posts before completely contradicting yourself.
Quote from: RPGPundit;372291So yeah, you could totally play either game in a completely healthy way that involved no degenerate Furry-Perversion.
Again anyone else see a contradiction?
Quote from: RPGPunditBut even then, every second of every minute of playing the game, you might remember that nine-tenths of the people who do play this game, including maybe some of the very people at your table (was someone there REALLY eager to play this particular game? Maybe someone has a favorite animal-type that he seems to be really getting into?) are people who get off on cannibalistic hermaphrodite dog-people urinating on zebra "cubs".
Nice statistics, where did you get those? Oh, yeah you made it up. Well 65% of FtA players are right wing christian white supremacists. Dont worry I'm using the same system you are to determine this sort of thing. Conjecture, bias, and personal opinions none of which are grounded in fact. So you know, we're good.
You know its pretty sad that a person is put away from a game because a minority group, in an already minority hobby is creepy. Never mind the majority of Usagi, TMNT, After the bomb, or Rifts players are plain normal RPG'ers that have nothing to do with a tiny minority group that seems to disturb you a great deal. Granted I do find "furries" creepy. But its not going to keep me from playing Usagi or TMNT. Just as I find satanists and emo vampire weasels creepy. But this not going to keep me from playing D&D. Two minority groups both associated with D&D. Do yourself a favor take the time to judge a game on its merits not on your preconceived notions on what its about. Because in this case your really missing out.
Quote from: Ronin;372433Then,
Really? Because that not what you just said. I mean at least wait a couple posts before completely contradicting yourself.
Really? Please show exactly where in those two blocks of text there is a contradiction.
QuoteAgain anyone else see a contradiction?
Nope.
QuoteNice statistics, where did you get those? Oh, yeah you made it up. Well 65% of FtA players are right wing christian white supremacists. Dont worry I'm using the same system you are to determine this sort of thing. Conjecture, bias, and personal opinions none of which are grounded in fact. So you know, we're good.
You know its pretty sad that a person is put away from a game because a minority group, in an already minority hobby is creepy.
Aw, now you're trying to use the Geek Social Fallacies to excuse away degenerates. Do you really think we fall for that "you have to be tolerant of everyone because you got wedgied in high school" shit here?
QuoteNever mind the majority of Usagi, TMNT, After the bomb, or Rifts players are plain normal RPG'ers that have nothing to do with a tiny minority group that seems to disturb you a great deal. Granted I do find "furries" creepy. But its not going to keep me from playing Usagi or TMNT. Just as I find satanists and emo vampire weasels creepy. But this not going to keep me from playing D&D. Two minority groups both associated with D&D.
Really? They're associated with D&D? Heavy-metal faux satanists, maybe. And I must admit I don't actually know what an "emo vampire weasel" is, exactly, but it sure as hell sounds like they'd be shitting all over D&D and playing Vampire.
QuoteDo yourself a favor take the time to judge a game on its merits not on your preconceived notions on what its about. Because in this case your really missing out.
Oh, but one of the absolutely concrete merits or flaws of a game is the people who play it. One of the reasons I don't play Vampire is to not have to have my gaming tarnished by being around a bunch of pretentious pseudo-artiste goths. One of the reasons I don't play Dogs In the Vinyard, besides the fact that its not a real RPG, is that I don't want to be playing around a gang of moronic pseudo-intellectuals who imagine themselves radical beat poets. And one of the reasons I don't play Jadeclaw is because I don't want to be around a bunch of diaper-wearing furry-fetishists who get off on masturbating to pictures of unspeakably degenerate shit being portrayed in anthropomorphic form.
RPGPundit
Ummm, I'm just curious here. If Jadeclaw doesn't have anything in it about perverted furry-sex, then why is the company that makes it "clearly" a furry-run company? I'm not really familiar with any of their products so I don't know.
On a somewhat seperate note, I fail to see how calling you on your bullshit statistics constitutes "excusing away degenerates". Ignoring your idiotic, imaginary "statistics" has nothing to do with "excusing" theoretical deviant behavior. So 90% of people who play Usagi Yojimbo are automatically furry scum because you proclaim it so? Wow, that's just mindblowingly full of shit. I hate to break it to ya but there are "degenerates" of all sorts, all around you, at all times, whether you know it or not. Do you avoid all TV programs because I claim that 90% of TV writers and actors are deviant child rapers? My claim doesn't make it so. And if you allow that bogus claim to deny you whatever pleasure might be gained from watching said programs that just makes you, well, pathetic I guess. So you deny yourself the chance to play a game, in a setting you profess to enjoy greatly, because you can't bear the thought that somewhere, sometime, someone else played this game in an unsavory manor, or committed other deviant behaviour outside of the game? Whatever, man. That is beyond pathetic.
I suppose I don't have much room to talk on the topic. I don't play Amber because I don't like to be around pretentious, sycophantic, storytelling dipshits enthralled by the ramblings of a fantasy hack. (shrug) Whatever.
Quote from: J Arcane;372307But the basic point that there's what we think of now as "furry", and stuff that just has animal people in it, is mostly the same.
So by that logic rape-porn and Romeo & Juliet are mostly the same because they both contain sex of some kind? Saturday morning cartoons and tentacle-porn are mostly the same because they both involve animation? C'mon man, I give you credit for being smarter than Pundit.
Quote from: IMLegend;372543So by that logic rape-porn and Romeo & Juliet are mostly the same because they both contain sex of some kind? Saturday morning cartoons and tentacle-porn are mostly the same because they both involve animation? C'mon man, I give you credit for being smarter than Pundit.
Jesus fuck, has everyone on this fucking forum just forgotten how to fucking read? That is literally the opposite of my fucking point, you stupid motherfucker.
Also, I think you need to go back and re-read Romeo & Juliet, because there's no sex scene in that play.
Jadeclaw is furry because it's designed by, and created for, people who identify themselves as furry. It's a pretty uncontroversial statement to make.
I'm continuously amazed at how crusty my walrus suit gets after just one weekend's use.
Do you guys use a dry cleaner?
Quote from: J Arcane;372556Jesus fuck, has everyone on this fucking forum just forgotten how to fucking read? That is literally the opposite of my fucking point, you stupid motherfucker.
Whoops, my bad, I misinterpreted your poorly worded sentence. Fucking wow.
QuoteAlso, I think you need to go back and re-read Romeo & Juliet, because there's no sex scene in that play.
A poor example on my part. They spend the night together at one point, but it doesn't describe the goings-on. Many interpret that night as including sex. As I said, I could have chosen better.
QuoteJadeclaw is furry because it's designed by, and created for, people who identify themselves as furry. It's a pretty uncontroversial statement to make.
I'm not familiar with Jadeclaw nor the company that makes it. WHICH WAS WHY I ASKED THE FUCKING QUESTION YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER. Look back at my post. I said right there I wasn't familiar with them. Apparently you need to brush up on your own reading skills fuckbag.
Quote from: Aos;372572I'm continuously amazed at how crusty my walrus suit gets after just one weekend's use.
Oh.
You are the walrus. So, who was the eggman?
There are some things walrus was not meant to know.
I don't want to know where the eggman is. Not right this minute.
Quote from: IMLegend;372540Ummm, I'm just curious here. If Jadeclaw doesn't have anything in it about perverted furry-sex, then why is the company that makes it "clearly" a furry-run company? I'm not really familiar with any of their products so I don't know.
If a company is best known for making three furry-themed games, they're probably a furry-run company, wouldn't you say? Though I guess you could claim they're just clever and amoral businessmen who are selling to a Furry market, but the end result is the same.
QuoteOn a somewhat seperate note, I fail to see how calling you on your bullshit statistics constitutes "excusing away degenerates". Ignoring your idiotic, imaginary "statistics" has nothing to do with "excusing" theoretical deviant behavior. So 90% of people who play Usagi Yojimbo are automatically furry scum because you proclaim it so? Wow, that's just mindblowingly full of shit. I hate to break it to ya but there are "degenerates" of all sorts, all around you, at all times, whether you know it or not. Do you avoid all TV programs because I claim that 90% of TV writers and actors are deviant child rapers? My claim doesn't make it so. And if you allow that bogus claim to deny you whatever pleasure might be gained from watching said programs that just makes you, well, pathetic I guess. So you deny yourself the chance to play a game, in a setting you profess to enjoy greatly, because you can't bear the thought that somewhere, sometime, someone else played this game in an unsavory manor, or committed other deviant behaviour outside of the game? Whatever, man. That is beyond pathetic.
Would you feel better if it was 60%? Do you really think it'd be less than 50%? Even if it was 30%, and one in three people who got into Jadeclaw were hardcore furries, that would still mean that one in three people who play that game are people with odious personal fetishes that I wouldn't want in my group.
QuoteI suppose I don't have much room to talk on the topic. I don't play Amber because I don't like to be around pretentious, sycophantic, storytelling dipshits enthralled by the ramblings of a fantasy hack. (shrug) Whatever.
Aw, off-topic ad hominem attacks. The last refuge of the hopelessly inept.
RPGPundit
Quote from: J Arcane;372556Jadeclaw is furry because it's designed by, and created for, people who identify themselves as furry. It's a pretty uncontroversial statement to make.
Apparently the exception is if I make it. Then the Pundit-haters will try to warp time and space till they can bend reality backward in an effort to argue that a game where you play furry anthropomorphic animal-humanoids couldn't possibly have a single furry player.
RPGPundit
Ok, so Pundit's point is granted, the people who made Jadeclaw/Ironclaw decided to focus on anthropomorphic rpg's and they did so in an era after the yiff taint had infected the furry movement.
However, seeing as how the games themselves are devoid of yiff elements, isn't it possible that they just said "Yeah the yiff guys are ruining furry fandom, but fuck it, we like Usagi and TMNT and are making a game"?
Quote from: RPGPundit;372503Really? Please show exactly where in those two blocks of text there is a contradiction.
Quote from: Previous Pundit StatementThe only difference between the two games now is that TMNT was published by Palladium, which is clearly not a furry-run company, and the new Usagi Yojimbo is published by the people who did Jadeclaw, which are very clearly furries
Quote from: Previous Pundit Statmenthaven't read the latest edition of the Usagi Yojimbo RPG; I have read Jadeclaw, and at least from my cursory read it had nothing visibly in the system itself about perverted furry-sex.
If a company is "clearly run by furries" and then the game has nothing to do with furry pervent sex in any way, shape, or form. I would say it is pretty contradictory. Because how can a company be "run by furries" when the game has by your own admission nothing to do with creepy furry crap? Except the characters are anthropomorphic animals.
Quote from: RPG PunditNope.
I dont know what to tell you it seems pretty plain.
Quote from: RPG PunditAw, now you're trying to use the Geek Social Fallacies to excuse away degenerates. Do you really think we fall for that "you have to be tolerant of everyone because you got wedgied in high school" shit here?
That has nothing to do with it. Thats a bad attempt to redirect and avoid the clear topic. It has every thing to do with you making up statistics to make your case.
Quote from: RPG Pundityou might remember that nine-tenths of the people who do play this game, including maybe some of the very people at your table (was someone there REALLY eager to play this particular game? Maybe someone has a favorite animal-type that he seems to be really getting into?) are people who get off on cannibalistic hermaphrodite dog-people urinating on zebra "cubs".
What do you base this off? What hard data do you have to support this? You literally used conjecture, bias, and personal opinion (to quote myself). Then portray that as fact. It has nothing to do with "Geek Fallacies". I was making a point that any one can make
up statistics to back up their point. It doesnt make them right. As to the wegied thing. Nice personal attack in lieu of an actual point or argument. But that sort of thing never happened to me. Do I perhaps sense a little of your background experiences?
Quote from: RPG PunditReally? They're associated with D&D? Heavy-metal faux satanists, maybe. And I must admit I don't actually know what an "emo vampire weasel" is, exactly, but it sure as hell sounds like they'd be shitting all over D&D and playing Vampire.
Doent know what an emo vampire weasel is? Spend some time stateside or in canada at a comic and/or game shop you'll meet one and know exactly what I mean. Their easy to spot. Oh, and yes they play D&D. (Vampire is so 90's dont you know?:p)
Quote from: RPG PunditOh, but one of the absolutely concrete merits or flaws of a game is the people who play it. One of the reasons I don't play Vampire is to not have to have my gaming tarnished by being around a bunch of pretentious pseudo-artiste goths.
Why would you put yourself in the position to play with people like that? You can play Vampire without playing with "pseudo-artiste goths". The game (Vampire) I ran back in the day certainly had none of those types of people playing. I suppose the hardcore vampire people would say we played it wrong. But we played it our way and had fun. We didnt let the preconceived notions of other people ruin our enjoyment. Why do you?
Quote from: RPG PuniditOne of the reasons I don't play Dogs In the Vinyard, besides the fact that its not a real RPG, is that I don't want to be playing around gang of moronic pseudo-intellectuals who imagine themselves radical beat poets.
Well cant cant totally disagree with that. As I really dislike that game. But it because of the ruleset and the way it affects play. Not because of the people who play it, reguardless I wouldnt play with people like that. (gang of moronic pseudo-intellectuals who imagine themselves radical beat poets, that is)
Quote from: RPG PunditAnd one of the reasons I don't play Jadeclaw is because I don't want to be around a bunch of diaper-wearing furry-fetishists who get off on masturbating to pictures of unspeakably degenerate shit being portrayed in anthropomorphic form.
Yet you would, and do play Rifts. By your thinking, comments, and judgement its just as bad. As it contains mutant/anthropomorphic animals, dragons, and etc. You assume that everyone who plays it (Usagi, TNMT, Rifts, Jadeclaw, or insert current target of hate here) is a furry douchebag. When they (furries) are the minority of an already small minority of people know as RPG gamers. When the majority of these games players are normal gamers just like you and I.
Quote from: RPGPundit;372654Apparently the exception is if I make it. Then the Pundit-haters will try to warp time and space till they can bend reality backward in an effort to argue that a game where you play furry anthropomorphic animal-humanoids couldn't possibly have a single furry player.
RPGPundit
Umm it has nothing to do with you. News flash the earth does not revolve around you. Oh and if your theory is correct who is the furry is
your Rifts game? Being that Rifts is a game that you could play a "furry anthropomorphic animal-humanoid". Did no one take that choice? Does that mean that a pontential furry game game can be played with out it being tainted by furries? Did your SFD 1 crew ever fight against dogboys? Does, or would that make you a furry sicko for introducing them into a game?
I liked this thread better when we were talking about the Usagi Yojimbo games.
Pundit, stop derailing the thread with your imaginary bullshit. Even if what you said were true, I wouldn't care, when I played UY I played it with my friends.
All I was getting at originally is that with a property like this, in the hands of a company like Sanguine, I would be concerned it would be overly focused on the characters being animal people, as opposed to them being Japanese people who look like animals.
For example, I'm not convinced that making them into statted races makes any sense for the setting. I think one should just make a character, and decide what animal makes the most sense for what they have in mind. I can only think of one character that possessed any peculiar abilities that might warrant additional rules coverage, and that's because he was a snake with no arms.
Maybe I'd be better off just getting Sengoku or one of the other historic Japan games, and just adding on the animal thing myself as flavor text.
Quote from: Ronin;372723If a company is "clearly run by furries" and then the game has nothing to do with furry pervent sex in any way, shape, or form. I would say it is pretty contradictory. Because how can a company be "run by furries" when the game has by your own admission nothing to do with creepy furry crap? Except the characters are anthropomorphic animals.
I didn't say that it has nothing to do with creepy furry crap; I said it has no visible system elements that overtly present deviant furry sex. This in no way contradicts the fact that the people who are behind Jadeclaw, Ironclaw, and the current Usagi Yojimbo game are obviously furries.
And by virtue of being a game about furries designed after the late 1980s, its patently got SOMETHING to do with perverted furry crap, because ALL furry stuff has to do with it, because that's all that furries are about anymore, because they let the Lawncrappers come in and hopelessly taint their hobby to the point that anything furry is poisoned by the knowledge of what the average furry is into.
QuoteWhat do you base this off? What hard data do you have to support this?
Are you attacking the veracity of my claim or the lack of cited sources for my claim? Because those are two totally different things.
If you're doing the latter, then I really don't give a twopenny fuck about your argument, because you're trying to get off on a technicality; if you actually believe that what I've said is true and you're only trying to question whether I have some kind of peer-reviewed bullshit as though that's needed to somehow legitimize what is already true, you're a fucking twat.
On the other hand, if you are really trying to say that my claim is not true, and that you actually think that the majority of people who are into Jadeclaw are NOT furries, then you had best try to make your argument about that very central issue, instead of jerking off over the question of said technicalities.
And of course, my response would be: Seriously? You seriously want to claim that Jadeclaw is NOT an RPG made by furries, for furries?
QuoteYou literally used conjecture, bias, and personal opinion (to quote myself). Then portray that as fact. It has nothing to do with "Geek Fallacies". I was making a point that any one can make up statistics to back up their point. It doesnt make them right.
And on the other hand, if I am right, then I don't need a statistic to be right.
QuoteAs to the wegied thing. Nice personal attack in lieu of an actual point or argument. But that sort of thing never happened to me. Do I perhaps sense a little of your background experiences?
No, I'm just addressing your pathetic appeal to emotion at suggesting that I'm the mean bad man who is trying to keep the people who like to shit in their front lawns from our neighbourhood just because I'm Intolerant and that's bad always so I must be wrong to be so mean to the Jadeclaw Furries.
QuoteDoent know what an emo vampire weasel is? Spend some time stateside or in canada at a comic and/or game shop you'll meet one and know exactly what I mean. Their easy to spot. Oh, and yes they play D&D. (Vampire is so 90's dont you know?:p)
Well, given that I still don't have a clue what you specifically mean by "emo vampire weasel", and barring anyone else coming forward and actually defining the term (since you clearly don't seem inclined to do so yourself), I'm just going to have to go ahead and assume that you're full of shit.
QuoteYet you would, and do play Rifts. By your thinking, comments, and judgement its just as bad. As it contains mutant/anthropomorphic animals, dragons, and etc. You assume that everyone who plays it (Usagi, TNMT, Rifts, Jadeclaw, or insert current target of hate here) is a furry douchebag. When they (furries) are the minority of an already small minority of people know as RPG gamers. When the majority of these games players are normal gamers just like you and I.
Again, RIFTS is a game published by a gaming company not particularly known as a "furry company", whereas Jadeclaw is. I've never heard of furries talking about how awesome it is to have a game like RIFTS around, whereas the same cannot be said of Iron/Jadeclaw. To really point at RIFTS and say "Dog boy" (or Traveller and say "Aslan!" or RC D&D and say "Rakasta") and claim that this one element somehow overrides the entire rest of the (non-furry themed) elements of the game and transforms it into a "furry game" is just stupid.
In RIFTS you can play a headhunter, a cyborg, a glitter boy, a dog boy, a dragon, a shifter, a cyber-doc, or twenty thousand other things (almost literally; I mean have you seen how many fucking classes they are?) and you fight everything from techno-nazis to dark sorcerers to alien entities to dinosaurs and much more.
In Jadeclaw, you play a fur. You can choose among various kinds of furs. You fight against furs.
One of these things is in no way like the other. What you did is like claiming that FATAL and D&D are exactly the same because in FATAL you spend inordinate amounts of time focused on mechanics about violent rape and penis diameter, and in D&D there is an item called the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity.
RPGPundit
Quote from: J Arcane;372774All I was getting at originally is that with a property like this, in the hands of a company like Sanguine, I would be concerned it would be overly focused on the characters being animal people, as opposed to them being Japanese people who look like animals.
For example, I'm not convinced that making them into statted races makes any sense for the setting. I think one should just make a character, and decide what animal makes the most sense for what they have in mind. I can only think of one character that possessed any peculiar abilities that might warrant additional rules coverage, and that's because he was a snake with no arms.
Maybe I'd be better off just getting Sengoku or one of the other historic Japan games, and just adding on the animal thing myself as flavor text.
A pretty concrete example about how making it about Furry-ness changes things at a fundamental level.
RPGPundit
Quote from: J Arcane;372774All I was getting at originally is that with a property like this, in the hands of a company like Sanguine, I would be concerned it would be overly focused on the characters being animal people, as opposed to them being Japanese people who look like animals.
For example, I'm not convinced that making them into statted races makes any sense for the setting. I think one should just make a character, and decide what animal makes the most sense for what they have in mind. I can only think of one character that possessed any peculiar abilities that might warrant additional rules coverage, and that's because he was a snake with no arms.
Now I see your point.
Let's see how each game approaches the subject:
In Gold Rush Usagi Yojimbo, each race gets a Special Ability that only they get, and no other. For example, Rhinos get a special ability to withstand damage.
In Sanguine Usagi Yojimbo, each race gets two Gifts. These Gifts are not exclusive in any way, (except in a few cases, for example bats, and only bats, get the Fly Gift), everybody can get them, during chargen when you get free Gifts, or later with experience points.
As you can see, you have no reason to be concerned about Sanguine, in reality, its treatment of animal races is more open and flexible than Gold Rush's.
In defense of Gold Rush Usagi Yojimbo, it wouldn't be very difficult to make Special Racial Abilities open to everybody, just like Job Special Abilities. But note this is the default condition in Sanguine Usagi Yojimbo.
Other than this, your character doesn't get anything else for belonging to a race, no +1 to strength or something like that. This applies to both games.
QuoteMaybe I'd be better off just getting Sengoku or one of the other historic Japan games, and just adding on the animal thing myself as flavor text.
Sengoku is great, specially if you treat it like a setting supplement for a different setting. The system is not as bad as some people would have you believe, but it has some dealbreakers. It uses 13 (yes, 13) stats, and the list of skills is looooooooong, too long for my taste. It has different skills for Buddhism and Shintoism, go figure. Some of the talents were really good, but others were underpowered in comparison.
The setting information is top notch, but take into account that it applies to the Sengoku period, whereas Usagi Yojimbo is based on the Tokugawa period.
Regarding other games, I own Legend of the Five Rings 1st and 3rd, Sengoku, RQ Land of Ninja (another great supplement), Sengoku, Gold Rush Usagi Yojimbo and Sanguine Usagi Yojimbo, and in my opinion the last one is the best samurai RPG ever, no doubt. I don't own Bushido, RQ Land of Samurai (this one seems decent) or the Burning Wheel one, The Blossoms Are Falling, but if I ended up liking one of these more than Sanguine Usagi Yojimbo, I would chase the authors to marry them.
Quote from: RPGPundit;372777A pretty concrete example about how making it about Furry-ness changes things at a fundamental level.
RPGPundit
Except that there is no example there, just J Arcane's concern, that I think I addressed.
Quote from: Claudius;372787Except that there is no example there, just J Arcane's concern, that I think I addressed.
Ok, fair enough, I was running on the assumption that J Arcane was talking about a mechanic change that was actually in the present edition.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Claudius;372784Other than this, your character doesn't get anything else for belonging to a race, no +1 to strength or something like that. This applies to both games.
Sorry, but I checked it today and I see I was wrong about this. This only applies to Sanguine Usagi Yojimbo. In Gold Rush Usagi Yojimbo, you get a bonus to a few stats for belonging to a race (or should I say species?).
Quote from: Nicephorus;371978snip
I left out unintentionally two very important points, how combat works, and how Gifts work, which I see you commented on. Thank you!
Quote from: RPGPundit;372919Ok, fair enough, I was running on the assumption that J Arcane was talking about a mechanic change that was actually in the present edition.
RPGPundit
OK.
As I said, in both versions of Usagi Yojimbo the species you can choose for your character are differentiated, but it's not a big deal. And accusing Sanguine of stressing the animalness of the characters is nonsense, if anything, Gold Rush puts more emphasis on it, in Gold Rush UY every species gets a Special Ability no other species gets (although it could be houseruled easily), whereas in Sanguine UY that's not the case.
By the way, I wonder if in a future Usagi Yojimbo RPG you will be allowed to create a human character, like Lord Hikiji.
One last thing to J Arcane
I hope all your questions have been answered. If you have another question or doubt, please ask. I admit I'm a fan of Sanguine UY (although I don't dislike Gold Rush UY), and I hold the UY comics in high esteem, but I think that, like others in this thread, I have tried to be as objective as possible, saying the good and the bad.
And forget the "if you play it you'll become a furrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyy" bullshit. Both versions of UY are excellent games (even if you don't take into account the comic, which is great), and I feel they haven't been more successful because some people are bent on associating them with the worst aspects of furriness.
Don't do yourself a disservice, and check them out!