I'm working on a Shadowrun OSR clone and I've been playing around with the Street Shaman archetype. The urban druid, the street spirit talker, the non-blasty mage is an interesting character.
In your mind, what sets apart the Modern Urban Shaman from the Fantasy Druid or the Mythical Shaman (or even historical shaman)?
What kind of magic should exist for shamans in the modern techno world that you wouldn't find among your D&D druids? And vice versa?
What "real world" shaman traditions do you find most interesting? Most gameable? Most overdone?
Honestly, it's hard to take it seriously. It's like what televangelists are to Christianity. Mostly people trying to make a buck off the gullible.
In Shadowrun it works, because it's basically all in the spell casters mind, more or less. They can follow any magical tradition, as long as they believe in it enough.
as far as urban shamans go if you want to be druid like I approach it from the druid believes in Life or the ecosphere (which includes death decay and violence). So their magic would lean toward the same as a woodlands one but applied to the city. Spells to guide you through dangerous neighborhoods instead of forest, hearth and business spirits, Talking the language of the street ganger like he was a wolf pack leader. Etc.
Its a skin you can pull over most any environment even and urban one.
just my thoughts
Specifically for Shadowrun, the unique thing is the relationship to their totem, and the need to have a personality and lifestyle that syncs well with it. Broadly, abstractly defined totems that can be approached from different angles are good totems. A Shark shaman could be a relentless bounty hunter doing his job, a benign slumlord who rallies his minions when he smells weakness, or a ruthless boardroom shark - and they all would work.
Another thing specific for shamans (at least until Shadowrun 3rd) is their constant contact to the spirit world. Mages summon Elementals relatively rarely, as the materials are costly, the process takes hours and as elementals can stand ready to serve for years if necessary.
Spirits of Nature OTOH can be contacted on a whim, and will be willing to help out - but they are much more capricious. Wait until dawn/dusk or leave their narrowly defined domain, and they will leave you. A typical Shadowrun shaman will summon a weak spirit for no drain in any domain he enters, just in case he could use a spirit's services quickly, and dismiss him on leave to call the next spirit.
As far as spellcasting goes, Mages and Shamans have always had the same selection. What will shape the spell selection of a Shaman isn't so much the fact of being a Shaman, but rather the boni and penalties his totem provides. A Shark shaman will typically load up on combat spells (in which he has a bonus) and will be low on healing (which isn't exactly his forte). A Mouse shaman would rather keep his combat spell selection to a minimum, and focus on illusions, enchantments and other trickery.
Quote from: Spinachcat;783012I'm working on a Shadowrun OSR clone and I've been playing around with the Street Shaman archetype. The urban druid, the street spirit talker, the non-blasty mage is an interesting character.
In your mind, what sets apart the Modern Urban Shaman from the Fantasy Druid or the Mythical Shaman (or even historical shaman)?
What kind of magic should exist for shamans in the modern techno world that you wouldn't find among your D&D druids? And vice versa?
What "real world" shaman traditions do you find most interesting? Most gameable? Most overdone?
Many years ago I was in "urban shamanism" as you call it. I thus met a few "urban shamans." The whole idea was of re-connecting urban people with the mysteries of nature, try to see spirits during ceremonies held in nearby forests, and participate in ceremonies that the shaman learned from real native Indian shamans, such as the sweat lodge. Thus, in essence, the urban shaman is supposed to have learned from a real shaman (generally from North or South America), and then perform for urban people, though as law forbids it, no peyotl nor ayahuasca would be consumed. Then, meditation inspired from eastern tradition (usually from Buddhism) was mixed in for good measure.
Differences between a real native shaman and an urban shaman: The real shaman is before a medicine-man (a physician who relies on rituals and his/her own spiritual power of healing) and seer, who helps the people of his/her tribe with actual problems of health, gaining information (the seer aspect), or helping in endeavors such as hunting and fishing for food. On the other hand, urban people who are in urban shamanism would generally try to solve the above mentioned problems using modern methods, not the help of a shaman. They instead participate in urban shamanism because real modern life is unsatisfactory, and they want to find something else, re-connect with their inner self and with nature, etc., and find a meaning to life when materialistic life has none.
Gaming? Well, urban shamanism would not be about techno-spells or what not. It would rather be about re-discovering lost secrets and powers of ancient and mythical shamans. I could well see about people getting powers of second sight, making pact to forgotten spirits of nature, and releasing their inner savage nature when necessary. That sorts of things.
I don't know Shadowrun all that well in the specifics... but it seems to me that shamans are all about spirits and a sort of animism... the spirits of the city in this case... spirits in manufactured items (is there alchemy in Shadowrun?).
The totem seems like it could just as likely be some old toy... a TMNT action figure... or even the trash that drifts through the streets vs. having to be a living creature that exists in nature. Some cartoon character that has no physical reality outside of old video recordings (I'm divorcing the shaman idea from any/all connections to Native Americans or other RL practicioners and seeing is as entirely born of the sprawl... with sprinkles of whatever the shaman's cultural history might be).
Seems like most of their magic would be through the actions of spirits... the spirits of the city would be able to interact and control the energies of the city. So have spirits interrupt/direct electricity... darken a street or interrupt phone calls or make phone calls without a phone... mess around with internet service... make vehicle engines start or not start.
Can urban spirits go into the virtual reality of the web?
So I know nothing about urban Shaman, just right up front. BUT I have seen how an urban Druid can be epic by way of the Pathfinder novel 'Blood of the City'. Here's an excerpt:
QuoteShoanti had a way with simple but ingenious traps, and with toxins. In this they were scarcely alone; the Magnimarian passion for poisoning ran deep. Luma reached into the citysong, calling on the dark part of it that reveled in venoms, blights, and corruptions. Its tune altered, bubbling with the whispers of crooked apothecaries, clinking with bottles and jars, crunching with the grinding of pestles. The citysong reverberated at her from a spot amid the ropes: a long, thin needle jutted through the coils, a nearly invisible lacquer covering its tip. The lacquer joined the citysong. I am poison, it sang, at a frequency only Luma could hear.
She pointed to it. "Poisoned," she told Ontor.
Paizo has the epub for (I think) less than $5 if you want to see more examples.
Quote from: Simlasa;783138I don't know Shadowrun all that well in the specifics... but it seems to me that shamans are all about spirits and a sort of animism... the spirits of the city in this case... spirits in manufactured items (is there alchemy in Shadowrun?).
Alchemy is mostly about creating components for rituals (elemental summoning, wards, watcher binding) and the creation of focuses that enhance magic-use.
There is also the metatechnique of Anchoring which can be used to instill spells as one-shot effects into items (like a Healing potion that is activated by being quaffed, or a Fireball bomb that gets triggered when the right person touches it).
Quote from: Spinachcat;783012I'm working on a Shadowrun OSR clone and I've been playing around with the Street Shaman archetype. The urban druid, the street spirit talker, the non-blasty mage is an interesting character.
In your mind, what sets apart the Modern Urban Shaman from the Fantasy Druid or the Mythical Shaman (or even historical shaman)?
What kind of magic should exist for shamans in the modern techno world that you wouldn't find among your D&D druids? And vice versa?
What "real world" shaman traditions do you find most interesting? Most gameable? Most overdone?
I would probably start with the Marquis de Carabas from Neverwhere and build it up from there.
I would avoid starting with the nature Shaman/Druid and just trying to urban it up. I think that ends up just feeling like widow dressing. Instead you want someone who can speak to the city, know her hidden rhythms. A heavy dose of all the typical urban folk tales should probably be injected as well.
Quote from: jadrax;783152A heavy dose of all the typical urban folk tales should probably be injected as well.
I wonder if an urban shaman could make use of all those alligators in the sewers? Whether they were actually there or not (since so many people believe they are)... similar to how in Clive Barker's 'Candyman' (story not movie) the villain was a manifestation of urban legend come to life... not a ghost in the traditional sense.
Making up some urban legends for a cyberpunk setting seems like a fun little project of its own... like the one about that mysterious figure... not quite human or is that a mask?... who keeps interrupting normal broadcasts with non-sequitor comments and old music videos... and not everyone sees him... like, he'll be on all the vid screens in one apartment block... but not on any others... next time he'll show up somewhere else... seemingly at random.
If I was to make something like that, I would most likely go the voodoo, vodun, type of figure, if modern or near future.
Thank you everybody!
Keep the ideas coming!
Quote from: Skyrock;783122Specifically for Shadowrun, the unique thing is the relationship to their totem, and the need to have a personality and lifestyle that syncs well with it.
I definitely want to work with the concept of totems, but I am unsure if I want that as an option for shamans or as a core concept. AKA, totem shaman as a subclass.
Quote from: Skyrock;783122Another thing specific for shamans (at least until Shadowrun 3rd) is their constant contact to the spirit world.
I was thinking about making tapping into the spirit world more dangerous so even shamans who can sense the spirit world actually don't tap into it unless they feel they're safe. AKA, kinda like Lovecraft's From Beyond.
Quote from: Skyrock;783122As far as spellcasting goes, Mages and Shamans have always had the same selection.
True, but I am going with more separation of the magic types, echoing the divine/arcane split in D&D, but not as hard and fast. Arcane magic will be more wild, more destructive, more noisy/blasty/flashy, whereas Shaman magic will be more subtle...in general. A mage could load up on "quieter" spells and a shaman could choose more focus on warfare.
Quote from: Turanil;783130Differences between a real native shaman and an urban shaman: The real shaman is before a medicine-man (a physician who relies on rituals and his/her own spiritual power of healing) and seer, who helps the people of his/her tribe with actual problems of health, gaining information (the seer aspect), or helping in endeavors such as hunting and fishing for food.
Good point. In an urban fantasy, the shaman would have to take upon these roles for their modern "tribe" and just like the real native shamans, they would be the bulwark against evil spirits preying on their people.
In most "urban fantasy" the shaman must eschew modernity. I get avoiding cybernetics, but how "pure" of the modern world must a shaman be in a cyberpunk fantasy world where spirits are "more real" than our own?
Quote from: Simlasa;783138Seems like most of their magic would be through the actions of spirits... the spirits of the city would be able to interact and control the energies of the city. So have spirits interrupt/direct electricity... darken a street or interrupt phone calls or make phone calls without a phone... mess around with internet service... make vehicle engines start or not start.
One of the concepts I loved from D&D 4e was how the Outer Planes could bleed into the Prime Material plane. AKA, there were areas of the world where the Feywild (faeries) and the Shadowfell (undead) manifested themselves. AKA, planar invasion.
I want to draw this somewhat into my cyberpunk fantasy. Unsure how much, but enough for there to be subclass / specialist shamans who tap into one or the other planes.
I also love the idea of techno poltergeists and the idea that inanimate objects in the city have their own spirits of a certain kind. Perhaps, then a techno-shaman specialty?
Quote from: Simlasa;783138Can urban spirits go into the virtual reality of the web?
That will be a good question to tackle. I want to be careful to not thread on the hacker's turf too much, but the idea of techno-spirits and even virtual spirits is very interesting.
I must put me brain to this!
Quote from: jadrax;783152I would probably start with the Marquis de Carabas from Neverwhere and build it up from there.
THANK YOU! I totally forgot about Neverwhere. I must revisit it.
Quote from: Simlasa;783157I wonder if an urban shaman could make use of all those alligators in the sewers?
Heck yeah!
I used to wander sewers in NYC and the Bay Area as a kid. I want shamans to use sewer rat messengers to avoid cyberspying of email!
Quote from: Simlasa;783157Making up some urban legends for a cyberpunk setting seems like a fun little project of its own...
I am a horror junkie. I want urban fantasy to be scary and one of the things I am doing with my neo-clone(???) is that its at the 10 year mark of the Big Change so nobody's really sure WTF is up and it comes at a time of Great Upheaval so a number of social / political / economic / technological problems are altering society WHILE magic and monsters and spirits are showing themselves.
So definitely, I want players to be unsure WTF is true or hype about rumors and urban legends that move at the speed of instant online communication.
Nightlife had city spirits in a supplement (for NYC). Rather than tribal, they were neighborhoods.
Quote from: apparition13;783741Nightlife had city spirits in a supplement (for NYC). Rather than tribal, they were neighborhoods.
That sounds interesting... I've never checked out Nightlife, maybe for the shallow reason that the art on the covers of the books wasn't very appealing to me.
Quote from: Spinachcat;783734I am a horror junkie. I want urban fantasy to be scary
For whatever reason this got me started thinking about the Mimic movies... particularly the third film in the franchise, Sentinel... which feels like it's moved into more surreal and dystopian territory... a bit into the future. Maybe good inspiration for the insect spirits of shadowrun.
Quote from: Spinachcat;783734In most "urban fantasy" the shaman must eschew modernity. I get avoiding cybernetics, but how "pure" of the modern world must a shaman be in a cyberpunk fantasy world where spirits are "more real" than our own?
Well, I think it's good to impose a mechanic that implanted cybernetics are forbidden to them, as much as metal armors are forbidden to D&D druids. Other thn that, just tell in the class description that they despise futile techno-gadgets. However, though they won't spend their time playing on their i-phone, they can still use it when really necessary to call someone or get some info.
I will have to review Nightlife. Any other RPGs that do a good job with urban shamanism that I should review?
Quote from: Simlasa;783821For whatever reason this got me started thinking about the Mimic movies... particularly the third film in the franchise, Sentinel... which feels like it's moved into more surreal and dystopian territory... a bit into the future.
I will have to check that out!
Not an RPG, but a novel that hasn't been mentioned yet: City Come A-Walkin' by John Shirley.
Very early 1980 cyberpunk meets city spirits. A lot about Shadowrun's urban shamanism will make much more sense after reading that. If there is a single definite resource but the actual Shadowrun sourcebooks, it is this one.
Okay, found it. Nightlife main rulebook, starting at page 206 "Concretes: city elementals".
The rules don't reference shamans, but there are city elementals for Liberty Island, Harlem, East Harlem, Chinatown, the Theatre District, Wall Street, and Times Square fully statted up, plus names and a few descriptive bits for neighborhoods in Manhattan, Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Queens. I'm not sure how useful it would be to you, but concretes are tied to and cannot leave their neighborhood, though they can travel instantly to any location in their dominion and are omniscient in their dominion as well.
I'm NOT as sure that they would be useful for shamanic totems, unless you generalized them to spirits of temples, or government buildings, or slums, or wharfs, or sewers (Cloaca was the Roman sewer goddess, at least according to a Pratchett novel whose name escapes me); or even things like roaches or rats or pigeons.
Oh, I can see nature shamans eschewing cyberware, but for city shamans it might be a way to commune with city spirits.
Interesting! The City Elementals sound like domain lords in Ravenloft.
Animism says that everything has a spirit. Shamanism allows people to deal with those spirits.
So, in a city, the buildings have spirits, sewers have spirits, rats have spirits, skyscrapers have spirits.
The World Above is formed of the skyscrapers and highest buildings. The World Below is made of sewers, maintenance tunnels, the Metro/Underground system and catacombs. Skyscrapers link the World Above to the World Below, especially those that have underground car parks or Metro stations.
Fantasy Shamans deal with nature spirits, as well as the normal spirits of light/darkness, above/below.
Urban Shamans deal with exactly the same things. Their nature is made up of rats, cockroaches, pigeons, feral dogs, mangy cats and the like. There is a Disney film where a princess comes across into New York and befriends the rats and pigeons by singing a pretty little song, the same can be said for Urban Shamans.
Cities are full of ghosts, in fact, far more people die in cities than in the country, especially in modern times. The spiritual environment would be different. Spirits could be summoned through water pipes, electric cables, gas mains and the like, channeling them to the shaman. They can be bargained with by sacrificing money, people, things. They can manifest in radios, TVs, computer screens and smart phones. The internet would be a source of modern spirits and also a source of spells and grimoires.
Quote from: soltakss;784413Cities are full of ghosts, in fact, far more people die in cities than in the country, especially in modern times. The spiritual environment would be different.
Agreed. The plethora of upset dead in a future dystopia could be interesting, and how the return of magic to the world affects those dead could be fun.
Dealing with hauntings / possessions / exorcisms could be fun sidetrek from the usual corporate attack adventures. Heck, the corps may even need them to "clean out" locations troubled by the dead.
Quote from: soltakss;784413They can manifest in radios, TVs, computer screens and smart phones.
I've always been a fan of poltergeists. They will be an issue for shamans and others to deal with.
I am thinking about Calender / Seasonal "mass hauntings", kinda like Hurricane Season where there is a sudden influx of spirit activity for certain periods of time.
Also, I am playing with an idea about the Wild Hunt, where the spirit world may declare a Purge-style night on the human world.
Good stuff Soltakss!
Quote from: Spinachcat;785280I've always been a fan of poltergeists. They will be an issue for shamans and others to deal with.
I am thinking about Calender / Seasonal "mass hauntings", kinda like Hurricane Season where there is a sudden influx of spirit activity for certain periods of time.
Have you ever seen the old BBC Halloween show Ghostwatch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHVqzRyaByM)? Maybe a bit cheesy nowadays, but I mention it because of its central concept of a TV broadcast turning into a mass seance... conjuring spiritual activity into the homes of the viewers.
Quote from: Spinachcat;783734Thank you everybody!
Keep the ideas coming!
I don't know if this will help or not. . . but they say a picture is worth a thousand words, and this image has always been a favorite of mine when I think about Urban Shamanism:
http://www.3dtotal.com/team/interviews/Justin_Kaufman_AKA_Coro/images/essaylokofinal2.jpg
Do you see any use in differentiating between necromancers, shamans, sorcerers, and witches? They all deal with spirits, but the contexts and flavors are different.
Quote from: Spinachcat;785280I am thinking about Calender / Seasonal "mass hauntings", kinda like Hurricane Season where there is a sudden influx of spirit activity for certain periods of time.
You could also have a sudden migration of spirits outside this time period; what is it that is frightening the spirits from their normal abodes?
QuoteAlso, I am playing with an idea about the Wild Hunt, where the spirit world may declare a Purge-style night on the human world.
Halloween. :)
Quote from: apparition13;785392Do you see any use in differentiating between necromancers, shamans, sorcerers, and witches? They all deal with spirits, but the contexts and flavors are different.
They all cast spells, too.
Personally, I would differentiate them quite a bit. That's mainly because I would give each type a different magic style, or mix of styles. So, necromancers would be able to summon the souls of the dead, animate corpses and draw power from the dead; shamans could summon, control, bind and interact with spirits; sorcerers would draw power from grimoires and cast spells; witches would draw power from their connection to various sponsors, drawing different kinds of magic from each.
But, if people prefer to have the same kind of magic available to everyone, then go for it.
As druids believe in a Nature bigger than mankind, urban shamans should see cities as ecosystems which Nature used man to build. An urban shaman should see beauty in a skyscraper or a sidewalk, just as the druid reveres the rowan and the footpath.
Where the druid could get on board with cutting down a forest if the gain is a cultivated field, an urban shaman could be conflicted over urban renewal.
Your urban shaman collects aluminium cans for material components, and might die defending an ancient billboard. He acts as advisor to zoning boards and neighborhoods seeking sustenance and sustainability.