I have to say that thread on TRoS might have saved me from an unwise impulse buy. That said, I have also been wondering about Unknown Armies.
I haven't heard as much about this one, and early on the descriptions of exactly what it was (especially in terms of genre and such) were a bit vague. I think I'm getting a better understanding of it, having poked around a bit. I get the feeling it bears some similarity to Hellraiser or Paranoia Agent, at least in the... uh.. mood?
I'm also vey curious about the madness meters and what they do exactly. Ever since reading Unearthed Arcana (love love love that book... it made D20 all cool and tinkerable) I have loved the idea of sanity mechanics, but the specific mechanic presented there seemed just short of unusable. There were lists of things that could make you crazy and such, and lists of possible ailments, but... very little description of the mechanical effects of the ailments, I think. It's been a while since I looked that up though... Anyway, how are the madness meters in Unknown armies? Are they easy or at least easier to implement? Can a person still play as (s)he goes crazy? Is the descent gradual, or sudden?
Outside of the meters, little gets mentioned. What is the rest of the system really like? Also, people say that the text discourages gun violence but that there is a freakishly complete gunlisting... I don't really know that I have a problem with bad writing, but I am curious if this is a good list, or just something superfluous. And lastly, why is Ronald McDonald being carried away by police in body armor?
Quote from: beejazzI get the feeling it bears some similarity to Hellraiser...
Hellraiser is more
Kult :D
Now I'm a fanboy of the game, so I'll just say....YOU MUST GET THIS BOOK.
Regards,
David R
Brevity is great, but what I need is vast vast quantities of info. Fanboy-rave away... what is it exactly that I should buy this game for?
the madness meters do nothing whatsoever.
unless players actually roleplay their insecurities, which they should do anyway.
a lot of the rules are not very effective in UA even though the game has some great, if achingly cool, ideas.
Years ago I swapped Kult for Nephilim because Kult was too dark for me.
It was however a good game. Nephilim was just unplayable.
Hope you don't mind linking to tBP. Here's something by a fellow poster:
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/How_to_Run:Unknown_Armies
A damn good AP:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=109355
Visiting the official site, may help:
http://www.unknown-armies.com/content_comments.php?id=2534_0_3_0_C11
and while you're there check out the rpgnet Plot -in-a- line -thread.
Regards,
David R
I tried to like UA but I found it lacking in mechanical oomph. The madness meters look to me like an overdone version of CoC Sanity.
The rumours section in the beginning of the book is solid gold for freaky plot ideas.
I checked out that Unknown Armies site. You mean to tell me that Atlas Games needs donations to keep that site operating? Disgraceful.
UA has a very simple and clean open-ended skill system. It's my favourite part of the game. Characters pick their main skills, rather than putting together an exhaustive list, and the skills are calculated at the level of effectiveness under life-threatening pressure, which means you rarely need to modify them.
The madness meters do come up in play, and do have a mechanical effect. They can cause characters to freeze up, go berserk, or flee wildly in a stressful situation if they fail a test, and they build up notches that can eventually turn them into sociopaths.
It's really easy to play an ordinary human in Unknown Armies, which is something I really like about it as a game involving high weirdness and magic. The magic systems are bolted on, and can be stripped out without any work. As well, PCs don't have to be slinging blasts and worshipping Kali to be mechanically effective against sorcerous foes.
I didn't want to try to do an exhaustive review. But I agree with the previous post. The game is odd, but it runs smoothly. Even if you ramp the power level all the way up, the characters are not superheroes.
The only issue I have wth the game is a player group issue, rather than a game-as-written issue. "Unknown Armies" in a lot of groups seems to be shorthand for "sick, demented shit." Part of that is my fault for running a bunch of sick, demented shit. But I have a fun set of seventies adventures, as the PCs attempt to support or thwart Evel Knievel in his bid for godhood. My preferrence would be to play these lightly, without Dillenger's giant penis grafted onto a radio-controlled monkey. But if I say No Electric Knob Monkey, no one wants to play. I guess I've only myself to blame . . .
Quote from: pigames.netI checked out that Unknown Armies site. You mean to tell me that Atlas Games needs donations to keep that site operating? Disgraceful.
It is disgraceful . I wasn't aware of this.
Regrds,
David R
Quote from: PseudoephedrineUA has a very simple and clean open-ended skill system. It's my favourite part of the game. Characters pick their main skills, rather than putting together an exhaustive list, and the skills are calculated at the level of effectiveness under life-threatening pressure, which means you rarely need to modify them.
Really? The open-ended skill list is actually one of the few things I've heard complained about.
QuoteThe madness meters do come up in play, and do have a mechanical effect. They can cause characters to freeze up, go berserk, or flee wildly in a stressful situation if they fail a test, and they build up notches that can eventually turn them into sociopaths.
Ah, so largely temporary morale effects with the potential for long-term damage?
QuoteIt's really easy to play an ordinary human in Unknown Armies, which is something I really like about it as a game involving high weirdness and magic. The magic systems are bolted on, and can be stripped out without any work. As well, PCs don't have to be slinging blasts and worshipping Kali to be mechanically effective against sorcerous foes.
Yeah, it's always cool having the option of playing less crazy stuff... even alongside the more crazy stuff.
So, having said all that about the magic system, how easy or hard would some of these rules be to port into other games and systems?
Quote from: signoftheserpentthe madness meters do nothing whatsoever.
unless players actually roleplay their insecurities, which they should do anyway.
a lot of the rules are not very effective in UA even though the game has some great, if achingly cool, ideas.
Explain, please.
Quote from: David RHope you don't mind linking to tBP. Here's something by a fellow poster:
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/How_to_Run:Unknown_Armies
A damn good AP:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=109355
Visiting the official site, may help:
http://www.unknown-armies.com/content_comments.php?id=2534_0_3_0_C11
and while you're there check out the rpgnet Plot -in-a- line -thread.
Regards,
David R
Thanks! That last one looks awesome.
Quote from: beejazzThanks! That last one looks awesome.
Yeah but apparently they are asking for donations to keep the site going. As I mentioned I wasn't aware of this and it's not really something I approve of esp since it's the official site. Don't get me wrong, there's loads of good stuff there, but it does leave a bad taste...:(
The one thing most folks who do like the game have issues with, is that it's pretty hard to set up a game. There are no hooks or start up points. I thought you may like to see what some folks are doing with it.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RThe one thing most folks who do like the game have issues with, is that it's pretty hard to set up a game. There are no hooks or start up points. I thought you may like to see what some folks are doing with it.
Well, I asked having something in mind already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_Agent
The episode "Mellow Maromi" was particularly freaky the first time I saw it, not knowing about the rest of the series.
I wouldn't rip the series off wholesale, but it's a style I'd love to try and mimic in a game.
Atlas Games stopped producing supplements for Unknown Armies for a couple of years already. I'm only guessing here, but I think unknown-armies.com is official in the sense that John Tynes, one of the developers of the game, runs the site and has a large presence there. It's probably "official" like how the Amber forum here is "official".
Quote from: MoriartyAtlas Games stopped producing supplements for Unknown Armies for a couple of years already. I'm only guessing here, but I think unknown-armies.com is official in the sense that John Tynes, one of the developers of the game, runs the site and has a large presence there. It's probably "official" like how the Amber forum here is "official".
It is the official site, but Atlas themselves do not run or support it.
The supplements are out of print, but there was just a new printing of the corebook, which should be in stores soon.
Quote from: beejazzWell, I asked having something in mind already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_Agent
The episode "Mellow Maromi" was particularly freaky the first time I saw it, not knowing about the rest of the series.
Very nice beejazz. This is damn good fodder for an
UA campaign. Hell, I may just steal this myself :D
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RVery nice beejazz. This is damn good fodder for an UA campaign. Hell, I may just steal this myself :D
Regards,
David R
http://www.adultswim.com/video/?episodeID=8a25c3921396b13501139799b9b000b2
The first episode, to get you going. Careful you don't have any anime fans in your group. It's aired on Adult Swim recently enough.
In any case, if UA is the system for Paranoia Agent, that by itself seems justification enough.
You wanted to know about some of the cool and/or wonky rules.
I really like the simple, but effective way stats and skills interact. This is one of my biggest gripes with CoC. In UA, stats put a limit on associated skills and, during char gen, provide the amount of points you can pour into the skills themselves. Dead simple, but smooth.
That, in my opinion, is UA's system at its best. There are a few instances where it doesn't work that well. I'm particularly unhappy with the way armour is treated (basically the presence of body armour is like a binary switch turning lethal firearms damage into ridiculous punching damage).
Some other mechanics straddle the line. The rules for car chases, for example, are inspired, but require a bit of tweaking to make them work right for me (especially the hit/miss rules for firing at the other car). Similar things have been done before, of course, but the way pursuer and pursued can engage in a duel of risky maneuvers and bid up crazy stunts is very nice.
Another point is the way UA handles skill tests. The system assumes non-ideal circumstances - i.e., when there's a fight in UA, it's going to be in a dark, narrow alley while rain is pouring down, so no need to slap on modifiers which apply to both sides anyway. If you got time and can relax, things get much easier. But the mad rush of the alley is assumed to be the standard.
For a percentile system it's really quite good, combining that old-school charm of % with some snazzy mechanisms and attitude. It's got much of that punk charme Vampire and CP once had, but none of the immaturity and lots of style.
Quote from: Bobo, the CarpenterYou wanted to know about some of the cool and/or wonky rules.
I really like the simple, but effective way stats and skills interact. This is one of my biggest gripes with CoC. In UA, stats put a limit on associated skills and, during char gen, provide the amount of points you can pour into the skills themselves. Dead simple, but smooth.
So your stat determines how many points you can distribute in related skills and skill caps? Does it also provide a bonus, or just that? Either way, that does sound nifty.
QuoteThat, in my opinion, is UA's system at its best. There are a few instances where it doesn't work that well. I'm particularly unhappy with the way armour is treated (basically the presence of body armour is like a binary switch turning lethal firearms damage into ridiculous punching damage).
As in converting damage into subdual damage, or somesuch? If so, that does sound kinda not cool.
QuoteSome other mechanics straddle the line. The rules for car chases, for example, are inspired, but require a bit of tweaking to make them work right for me (especially the hit/miss rules for firing at the other car). Similar things have been done before, of course, but the way pursuer and pursued can engage in a duel of risky maneuvers and bid up crazy stunts is very nice.
I haven't played many game systems thus far, but I have noticed a peculiar absence of good chase scene rules. What about this needed tweaking?
QuoteFor a percentile system it's really quite good, combining that old-school charm of % with some snazzy mechanisms and attitude. It's got much of that punk charme Vampire and CP once had, but none of the immaturity and lots of style.
Sounds good to me.
Quote from: pigames.netI checked out that Unknown Armies site. You mean to tell me that Atlas Games needs donations to keep that site operating? Disgraceful.
Atlas doesn't have anything to do with that site. You needed to check it out a little more thoroughly, I guess.
KoOS
IMHO, Unknown Armies is an interesting game but the writing is overblown and the system is seriously wonky. I'm usually a big fan of lightweight, simple systems, but the Unknown Armies mechanics are very "meh".
I really don't see the point in a percentile system which basically relies heavily on a lot of handwaving from the GM. There's quite a bit of vagueness around different skills (with players able to select their own, completely free form skills) and whether the GM deems a task to be Minor, Significant or Major. Nothing that you don't already find in a lot of other games, except it seems kinda pointless to have such a huge amount of handwaving embedded in the rules, but then the fine granularity of a percentile system.
Plus, there are quite a few minor elements to the rules that are counter-inuitive. For example, a minor skill check means you treat your skill as being +15% higher (so a failed roll might actually be a success). Also, the degree of success is actually based on how close you get to your actual skill, so beating your skill by 1% is actually better than beating it by 30%. Individually, none of these things are particularly complicated, but they are a bit counter intuitive to the way typical RPGs work. And they don't really add much to the game.
Like "flip-flops". In certain circumstances, you can switch the percentile dice to get a different rules, so a 91 could become a 19. On the surfce, it seems like a neat little mechanic, but in reality all it does is represent a bonus to your skill in certain situations. It doesn't add much to the game.
The good parts of the game, are the interesting stories. It's one of the few RPGs that has game fiction I actually enjoyed reading. And the wierd setting has oodles of potential. I'd definitely consider purchasing at for it's potential as a source book.
If our group ever wanted to give it a shot (again) and I was the GM, I'd probably use the ideas from the book but mechanics from Fudge. I'd use a simple collection of skills and I'd retain the maddness meters but use the Fudge scale for them. Alternatively, I'd consider using Fate, with maddness represented by Aspects.
If you want to play a game the focuses on the story and has lightweight mechanics, then actually bloody use lightweight mechanics.
As the GM of our abortive attempt at Unknown Armies, I'm sure Kyle can add some more information. I know that he was very critical over the quality of the writing.
Quote from: beejazzSo your stat determines how many points you can distribute in related skills and skill caps? Does it also provide a bonus, or just that? Either way, that does sound nifty.
The more points you put in stats, the more points you can assign to the skills governed by it. Actually, this is my favorite bit of all the mechanics in the system. After I've seen other systems contort themself, I think this is inspired elegance.
Unskilled rolls are made agains the appropriate stat, with a penalty.
Quote from: beejazzAs in converting damage into subdual damage, or somesuch? If so, that does sound kinda not cool.
It's just just that firearms do damage equal to the succesful skill roll, capped by the sill level and the weapons damage max, while bulletproof vests reduce this to the unshifted value of the SUM of the two dice. Is this what you meant with "subdual"?
Skill roll 57. Gun: 57 points damage. With vest: 12 points.
Easy to houserule, though, and it's just one small special rule.
Quote from: beejazzI haven't played many game systems thus far, but I have noticed a peculiar absence of good chase scene rules. What about this needed tweaking?
It's actually quite good. There's player-empowered stuff like taking risks and insane risks to gain or lose distance (in car-lenghts), but the rules for firing at a car only take into account hitting the people inside the car. Thinking it over, maybe that's not a bad idea, but rules for wrecking the car itself ("Aim for the tire!") would fit in nicely here.
Quote from: beejazzSounds good to me.
It does. The best thing about UA, however, is the way character driven play is supported. Together with the sketchy background, the madness and stimulus rules really go a long way towards atmospheric play, if you're willing to buy into it.
What many people don't like are some of the actual dice mechanisms. Flip-flops, cherries, that kind of thing. Still, better than a straight 5% chance of fumbling/critting, in my opinion.
Quote from: Tyberious FunkNothing that you don't already find in a lot of other games, except it seems kinda pointless to have such a huge amount of handwaving embedded in the rules, but then the fine granularity of a percentile system.
If you want to play a game the focuses on the story and has lightweight mechanics, then actually bloody use lightweight mechanics.
I must admit it's really a very strange decision. Perhaps a deep love for the (lately much maligned) percentile skill systems?
Quote from: Bobo, the CarpenterIt's just just that firearms do damage equal to the succesful skill roll, capped by the sill level and the weapons damage max, while bulletproof vests reduce this to the unshifted value of the SUM of the two dice. Is this what you meant with "subdual"?
Skill roll 57. Gun: 57 points damage. With vest: 12 points.
Easy to houserule, though, and it's just one small special rule.
Say what?! 57->12? Oie... not good.
(Note: Subdual is a sort of lesser damage that don't kill you... see also "nonlethal." Least in the current incarnation of DnD).
Also, yeah... being able to trash vehicles would make for some good stuff.
Quote from: Tyberious FunkThe good parts of the game, are the interesting stories. It's one of the few RPGs that has game fiction I actually enjoyed reading. And the wierd setting has oodles of potential. I'd definitely consider purchasing at for it's potential as a source book.
If our group ever wanted to give it a shot (again) and I was the GM, I'd probably use the ideas from the book but mechanics from Fudge. I'd use a simple collection of skills and I'd retain the maddness meters but use the Fudge scale for them.
(
Bolding mine) Exactly.
Your
FUDGE idea is very interesting. I'm always looking for settings I can fudge up.
Regards,
David R
You know, I suspect if Greg Stolze sat down and wrote Unknown Armies today, he'd use the One Roll Engine for it. He's already shown how you can tie the madness meters in with the ORE in NEMESIS, and the ORE is much more polished and shiny than the UA system.
Quote from: beejazzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_Agent
The episode "Mellow Maromi" was particularly freaky the first time I saw it, not knowing about the rest of the series.
Heh, and after the MARINER thread, now might me the second-best moment to tell you about my employer (http://www.anime-virtual.de/films/index.php?suchtyp=&suchkatalog=0000000812)...
("Mellow Maromi" is my favourite episode of the series.)
Quote from: Warthur[Greg Stolze has] already shown how you can tie the madness meters in with the ORE in NEMESIS, and the ORE is much more polished and shiny than the UA system.
If you want to get right down to it,
NEMESIS (http://web.mac.com/drgonzo/iWeb/Site/NEMESIS.html) pretty much
is a substitute engine for
UA.
!i!
Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeHeh, and after the MARINER thread, now might me the second-best moment to tell you about my employer (http://www.anime-virtual.de/films/index.php?suchtyp=&suchkatalog=0000000812)...
("Mellow Maromi" is my favourite episode of the series.)
So wait... you work for... who? Folks who sell anime?
(heh-heh... they're advertising Black Lagoon.... that show was awesome)
And ORE looks promising... if only for offering horror and mecha on the same site. I'll maybe comment more on the rules later.
EDIT:The mecha rules pull up a 404.
Mike Gentry used to have some nifty notes for running UA with Fudge on his website, but I don't know if they're still around.
KoOS
Quote from: beejazzExplain, please.
the point of making up your own skill names is silly and pointless and confusing. Madness meters are a waste of time - better just to use the simple system that CoC has. Insanity isn't something players 've met and myself know enough about to simulate properly so a decreasing pool is better than some bizarre set of 'meters' that just leave players wondering what's going on.
The system is just a d100 system producing characters with weak levels of skills. If you don't have the skill you just roll against your stat which is measured in the same way so the whole thing is a waste of time.
It's also painfully hip.
Quote from: signoftheserpentthe point of making up your own skill names is silly and pointless and confusing.
Totally disagree here. I think this is cool, since it allows one to define their character the way they want, but still within the parameters of whatever the GM decides is an appropriate skill in their game. You could even have things like telekinesis or clairvoyance as skills if you want.
Quote from: signoftheserpentMadness meters are a waste of time - better just to use the simple system that CoC has. Insanity isn't something players 've met and myself know enough about to simulate properly so a decreasing pool is better than some bizarre set of 'meters' that just leave players wondering what's going on.
I find CoC's insanity system way too simplistic. The madness meters allow variations on what will or won't affect you. Hard ass hit man who was assaulted by a ghost as a child. Lotsa hardened in violence but fucked when it comes to the unnatural.
So you don't like it because...you don't understand it? Your players don't understand it? Or Why? It's a really easy mechanic to grok.
Quote from: signoftheserpentThe system is just a d100 system producing characters with weak levels of skills. If you don't have the skill you just roll against your stat which is measured in the same way so the whole thing is a waste of time.
It's also painfully hip.
Just Huh???
the characters created by the system had too few skills to be of any use to anyone.
the madness system is no more realistic than CoC.
Quote from: signoftheserpentthe characters created by the system had too few skills to be of any use to anyone.
Did your GM institute minor, significant and major skill checks? If so even a skill of 15% has an effect. The book does state you should take a few skills rather than alot of skills, but you can still make a roll vs. stat if you don't have a skill. Also, only things that have high risk/consequences in fucked up situations should be rolled for. Other wise you should just succeed with 15% or higher(minor checks) or by rolling under your stat(significant). In my mind this kind of fits a gritty, horror-esque game.
Quote from: signoftheserpentthe madness system is no more realistic than CoC.
Still just totally disagree here...In CoC there's no differences in the things that affect your character more and the ones that affect him less. Regardless of who your character is, has done or seen...In CoC you're basically going to roll for the same insanity as the next guy no matter what. And nothing your character has done or see changes that. In UA if you've gotten to the point where performing torture doesn't faze you...then you aren't going to loose it when you see someone else being tortured...this just makes more sense in my mind.
CoC's sanity and its 'spiral of madness' is a neat mechanic, but I think that the madness meters - and the notion that characters can become either unstable or desensitized - work better for the kind of situations featured in UA, where there's less of a focus in eldritch horror and more in mundane psychological trauma.