Garweeze World in the original Hackmaster did just that (unifying the various D&D settings as one world), but Kenzerco couldn't get much written for it while they still held the license. The Mystara portion (HackWurld of Mystaros) was the closest to being a reality, but the author had personal problems crop up and vaporware it became.

Quote from: tenbones;869000Necrozius nails it. That's exactly why the Marvel Cinematic Universe *IS* a syncretic amalgamation of all their two most popular universes - the 616 and Ultimate Universe, with sprinklings of elements from others and outright removal of others.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a new continuity that tries to be consistent in of itself. Yes it use some elements from 616 and some from the Ultimate universe. However the 616 universe and the Ultimate universe does not exist in the MCU at this point.

What Spelljammer did and what being proposed here is taking pre-existing settings with their cosmology and mashing together 'as-is'

That stupid. They are separate works that are self-consistent with each other. Makes as much sense as throwing together Sony's Spider-Man/Fantastic Four, Fox's X-Men, and the MCU together 'as-is'. Hell the MCU knows this which is why the MCU Spider Man is also a third incarnation of a cinematic Spider Man and not a continuation of the Amazing Spider Man films or the Raimi Spider Man films.

Now you could create a new D&D Universe where each of these setting were re-imagined into one world. A world with a Continent with the DDU's Greyhawk, the DDU Forgotten Realms, DDU Dark Sun, etc. However the DDU versions will  not be the same as the originals just as the MCU version of Marvel characters is not the same as 616 or Ultimate.

I dunno: Dark Sun could take place on a desert continent. Ravenloft could be a heavily mist-shrouded part of the world (another continent?) or on a nearby plane of existence.

I think that anything could work: D&D already has a big cosmology of planes. Unless the Forgotten Realms have already been 100% mapped out on a planetary scale with each region already tied into some widely known canon, of course.

For the record, I don't AGREE with this possibility, only that I could see how it could work.

...and they'd get to keep their precious MMO by expanding it with new "zones". WoW did that too.

Quote from: estar;869087The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a new continuity that tries to be consistent in of itself. Yes it use some elements from 616 and some from the Ultimate universe. However the 616 universe and the Ultimate universe does not exist in the MCU at this point.

You just constructed the problem we're talking about: the syncretic nature of the MCU is itself its own Universe. Take it a step further - the MCU *IS* within the 616 cosmology as one of their various universes (I forget the number - but it's in there, just like Spiderman and His Amazing Friend's cartoon-universe exists in the Marvel Cosmology too.)

Quote from: estar;869087What Spelljammer did and what being proposed here is taking pre-existing settings with their cosmology and mashing together 'as-is'

That stupid. They are separate works that are self-consistent with each other. Makes as much sense as throwing together Sony's Spider-Man/Fantastic Four, Fox's X-Men, and the MCU together 'as-is'. Hell the MCU knows this which is why the MCU Spider Man is also a third incarnation of a cinematic Spider Man and not a continuation of the Amazing Spider Man films or the Raimi Spider Man films.

Well... I'll play the Spelljammer apologist. Spelljammer bridges all these settings. It doesn't fundamentally change them unless you want them to change. This is why they have rules regarding Spelljamming ships in various ports in the Forgotten Realms (and yes, they're stupid, but exist to maintain the very separation you're talking about). Of course... the problem of the "bridge" becoming it's own setting further exacerbates the issue.

Although some of the game "worlds" (usually a continent or sometimes two) are fully mapped, I doubt there would be a problem with slipping another continent off in some place no one was looking.

Ravenloft could "be" anywhere, but a large part of the premise of the setting is that you can never leave.

Quote from: Omega;869061Thats about what does happen sometimes. The networks impose some pretty crazy limitations on Marvel and DC. Its why you dont see some major characters in one movie because it would "dilute" another proposed movie. Or because Marvel and DC have sold off the rights to competing studios.

These are not problems that WoTC would have though.

Quote from: Necrozius;869091I dunno: Dark Sun could take place on a desert continent. Ravenloft could be a heavily mist-shrouded part of the world (another continent?) or on a nearby plane of existence.

I think that anything could work: D&D already has a big cosmology of planes. Unless the Forgotten Realms have already been 100% mapped out on a planetary scale with each region already tied into some widely known canon, of course.

For the record, I don't AGREE with this possibility, only that I could see how it could work.

...and they'd get to keep their precious MMO by expanding it with new "zones". WoW did that too.

Meh, it'd only suck in the aggregate. Far too many of the worlds would be destroyed by such intermingling, even worse than what happened to poor Maztica in contact with Faerûn. And others, it would just make zero cosmological sense.

Ravenloft is a patchwork quilt of terrains, cultures, "tech/magic" levels, etc. with little need to adhere to an overarching rhyme or reason. It's a nightmare realm in the deep ethereal, designed to torment the most evil eternally — all powerful within their own self-flagellating abattoir. It has its own logic, and purposefully denies spell reliability and free movement.

Birthright is a land infused with magic based around realm management. The super-bad guys are literally called the "unseelie." Blood itself carries lineage, and popular image determines how much regency can shape reality. Adventurers marching off to "slay the regional big-bad" put their immortal soul in peril by as much as picking up tainted blood by as much as losing their life to the monster.

Dragonlance has steel a rare metal; Dark Sun, any metals and reliable sources of water; Hollow World has each locale mostly walled off into its own little realm. Each of them alter magic rules and strengths depending on their cosmological realities. Thrusting any of these into "just over yonder!" in FR might as well nuke the setting: wipe out Dragonlance's economy, flood with new priests, mass migration from Dark Sun into FR proper, culture shock and dissolution with Hollow World (goodness help the campaign that meets the "concrete & steel" elves with skyscrapers, robot servants, hovercars, and a craze for fashion).

No, it can be done, dumping everything into FR (anything can be done). But the results would be shit. There is something to be said for discrete spheres, not everything benefits from "elegance."

At that point just bring back Alternity and enact the Prime Directive. It'd work better.

Planescape and Spelljammer should be integrated if they're resurrected together. Maybe make the deep ethereal and the phlogiston into the same thing? The material plane/crystal spheres would then be self-contained demiplanes within the deep ethereal/phlogiston.

Furthermore, the campaign settings they connect need to interact at least tangentially on the socio-political level if two-way travel is possible.

Quote from: tenbones;869109You just constructed the problem we're talking about: the syncretic nature of the MCU is itself its own Universe. Take it a step further - the MCU *IS* within the 616 cosmology as one of their various universes (I forget the number - but it's in there, just like Spiderman and His Amazing Friend's cartoon-universe exists in the Marvel Cosmology too.)

Yeah I can play the multiple worlds, alternate history, other plan card too. And exactly what will that page worth of explanation will improve over the present situation? Oooh look you can hop there and be in Greyhawk, hop there and be in Forgotten Realms.

While overarching Marvel Universe has multiple alternative histories and realms, along with DC's multiple Earth-Xs. What the Ultimates and later the more successful MCU did is reformulate the characters and stories into a new setting with its own continuity. However the MCU Iron Man is not the same as 616 Iron Man which is not the same as the Ultimate Iron Man.

What the OP suggests is unite all the D&D settings into a single world. That doing this will cause WoTC to put out more support in the form of a DDU Dark Sun, or a DDU Greyhawk.

What my point is that is all fine and dandy but the consequence is a different setting. That combining them will altered all the setting into something different. Perhaps not drastically different but different none the less. After all the MCU Iron Man is still a recognizable Iron Man who is Tony Start has a heart problem wears a powered armor suit etc etc. However it is not the same Iron Man of the 616.

For example I like the MCU in a way I never did for either version of the Marvel Univerese. I was always more of a DC fan when it came to comices. I didn't hate Marvel Comics, I like DC Comics more and put my $$ towards buying those comic. With the MCU, I enjoy it enough to make an effort to watch the movies and the tv shows. That because the MCU different enough cause a chance in how I feel about the material than the 616 Marvel or Ultmate Marvel.

The same thing will happen to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun if you mash up up into a single world. Now with the right people it could be successful enough to grow a new audience for the D&DU. And thus warrant further support by Wizards.

But it not likely given vastly different assumptions each of the settings have about the world and cosmology.

Quote from: tenbones;869109Well... I'll play the Spelljammer apologist. Spelljammer bridges all these settings. It doesn't fundamentally change them unless you want them to change. This is why they have rules regarding Spelljamming ships in various ports in the Forgotten Realms (and yes, they're stupid, but exist to maintain the very separation you're talking about). Of course... the problem of the "bridge" becoming it's own setting further exacerbates the issue.

Yes the Spelljammer is illustrative of the point I am making. Despite one of it's central conceits as a bridge between setting it just became a another one of the many AD&D 2nd edition setting.

I stand by my earlier recommendation if fans want more support for X then Wizards needs to be pressured in opening up X to third party content with a open license or failing that a reasonable license.

Quote from: Opaopajr;869129No, it can be done, dumping everything into FR (anything can be done). But the results would be shit. There is something to be said for discrete spheres, not everything benefits from "elegance."

Good points. Which is pretty much why I'm cynical about them (Hasbro) doing anything that might dilute the brand. Forgotten Realms seems to be the default setting, and they're cross-promoting it heavily.

I'd like it if some of these settings got a fresh coat of paint or rework, but, ehhhh I don't think it will happen. I hope that I'm wrong.

Quote from: estar;869147While overarching Marvel Universe has multiple alternative histories and realms, along with DC's multiple Earth-Xs. What the Ultimates and later the more successful MCU did is reformulate the characters and stories into a new setting with its own continuity. However the MCU Iron Man is not the same as 616 Iron Man which is not the same as the Ultimate Iron Man.

Except that Marvel has just imploded their entire multiverse into one universe for this *exact* reason. That's why I used the MCU as an example.

- all very salient points.

Yes the Spelljammer is illustrative of the point I am making. Despite one of it's central conceits as a bridge between setting it just became a another one of the many AD&D 2nd edition setting.

Quote from: estar;869147I stand by my earlier recommendation if fans want more support for X then Wizards needs to be pressured in opening up X to third party content with a open license or failing that a reasonable license.

SO... here is my question. (And I do think your idea is solid on 3rd parties). But let's look at the current status-quo. There is 5e D&D. The only official setting there is material for is Forgotten Realms, and even then it's only a nice size portion. Is it in the interests of WotC to ever visit any other setting (short of licensing it out to 3rd party development - which if their numbers are to be believed might not even be worthwhile for those 3rd parties) in the way they're currently developing 5e?

I'm not certain your idea works. Ideally I'd love it. But under what circumstances, again, if their numbers are to be believed about say - Darksun - a sliver of 1% of those surveyed, even care enough to purchase a full book on the game? I'm not sure what to believe about those surveys honestly.

What settings could probably rightfully stand on their own? Greyhawk - probably. Dragonlance and the Realms... *maybe* Eberron (not sure about this one) and that's about it.

That leaves an awful lot of settings hanging out there without a ready audience. But then that was one of the problems that killed TSR.

Maybe a multi-setting book?

Quote from: tenbones;869153SO... here is my question. (And I do think your idea is solid on 3rd parties). But let's look at the current status-quo. There is 5e D&D. The only official setting there is material for is Forgotten Realms, and even then it's only a nice size portion. Is it in the interests of WotC to ever visit any other setting (short of licensing it out to 3rd party development - which if their numbers are to be believed might not even be worthwhile for those 3rd parties) in the way they're currently developing 5e?

It looks to me that Wizards is pursuing a modified Paizo Pathfinder path. In that the focus on adventures/campaigns. Paizo's prestige format is a six part Adventure Path. Wizard's prestige format is hardcover with one or two books covering a single campaign.

It appears that the idea is to generate excitement for the core books is by maintain a line of exciting adventures to experience. Along with the occasional strategic drop of a non-adventure product like Swords Coast Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. The Adventurer's Guide has some splat element in it but it also reinforces the released adventure with useful further details.

In short the campaign is the primary focus, the setting is just a support item.

Eventually they are going to try different things including a different setting. But... they will provide just enough that is needed to run the adventure. Releasing free PDFs as needed, and perhaps another adventurer's guide if the interest is there.

And I suspect if Ravenloft is the next campaign/adventure we will see what Wizards thought in that regard. If they set in Forgotten Realms then likely the day when they try a Greyhawk campaign or a Dark Sun campaign is a couple of years out.

And also note that adventures they are putting out are not really adventure modules or setting guides but something in between. More of a campaign guide with some specifics.

Quote from: tenbones;869153I'm not certain your idea works. Ideally I'd love it. But under what circumstances, again, if their numbers are to be believed about say - Darksun - a sliver of 1% of those surveyed, even care enough to purchase a full book on the game? I'm not sure what to believe about those surveys honestly.

What settings could probably rightfully stand on their own? Greyhawk - probably. Dragonlance and the Realms... *maybe* Eberron (not sure about this one) and that's about it.

If they pick another setting to use it will be because the Wizards Team think it has some unique elements that will enhance the campaign they have in mind. I think the starting point these days is "What type of campaign we want to present this cycle." If come up with what they feel is a kick ass idea that use Dark Sun then they will go with that.

Quote from: tenbones;869153That leaves an awful lot of settings hanging out there without a ready audience. But then that was one of the problems that killed TSR.

Maybe a multi-setting book?

I think many publisher outside the top five (Wizards, Paizo, White wolf, etc) would be more than happy to jump at trying to make a profit at Eberron, Dragonlance, Birthright, etc. If they were assured that the IP they produce was not flushed down the toilet five years from now when Wizards gets a new president or team.

I think the example of OSR proves what can be done with a "dead" system/setting in a open environment.

For example Dan Proctor did Labyrinth Lord under Goblinoid Games. One thing lead to another and Dan was able to obtain the IP rights to many of the Pacesetter games. I wouldn't say the line is a hit. But it perks along doing it own thing building up a fan base. I don't knows all the ins and outs of how Dan does business but I am sure that the ease of distributing PDFs and Print on Demand factors into it.

Basically if a 100 people can be persuaded to buy products for a line, then a author can turn a profit and find it worthwhile to make new products*. And the gamut of 2nd edition setting have way more than a 100 people interested in them.

*Note this is not the same as making a living. That is a higher threshold of sales. What the 100 sales per means that it amounts to enough money so make the author go "Oh well that nice, I can buy myself Fallout 4, a new graphics card, and still have enough to pay for the stuff i need for the next release.

Quote from: estar;869157It looks to me that Wizards is pursuing a modified Paizo Pathfinder path. In that the focus on adventures/campaigns. Paizo's prestige format is a six part Adventure Path. Wizard's prestige format is hardcover with one or two books covering a single campaign.

It appears that the idea is to generate excitement for the core books is by maintain a line of exciting adventures to experience. Along with the occasional strategic drop of a non-adventure product like Swords Coast Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. The Adventurer's Guide has some splat element in it but it also reinforces the released adventure with useful further details.

In short the campaign is the primary focus, the setting is just a support item.

Yeah. I kinda get that too. My "problem" is I'm lazy. I don't wanna re-write all the stuff I want right now (like trying to recreate my nation ruled by Psionic overlords) in 5e. Or if I wanna run Darksun 5e - I'll have to reinvent the wheel etc. Sue me, I want them to put out a nice book/boxset with the new rules and I'll give them my MONEYSSSS!!!! Alas, the world is not a fair place.

Quote from: estar;869157Eventually they are going to try different things including a different setting. But... they will provide just enough that is needed to run the adventure. Releasing free PDFs as needed, and perhaps another adventurer's guide if the interest is there.

This, married to my laziness factor above, is why I've slowly stepped away from 5e. I do like the game. I like the system very much. But between my day job, my freelance gigs, my fiction writing, my kids, etc. re-doing everything I want in 5e is... well... onerous. I'd rather just hand over the money - or Mike could call me up and hire me (if you're watching Mike, I'm serious, heh).

Quote from: estar;869157And I suspect if Ravenloft is the next campaign/adventure we will see what Wizards thought in that regard. If they set in Forgotten Realms then likely the day when they try a Greyhawk campaign or a Dark Sun campaign is a couple of years out.

And also note that adventures they are putting out are not really adventure modules or setting guides but something in between. More of a campaign guide with some specifics.

Yep - this is exactly like what they're doing with Edge of the Empire.

Come to think of it - they could always come up with an SRD that grows by posting up the rules everytime a supplement comes out. Doubt that'll happen...

Quote from: estar;869157If they pick another setting to use it will be because the Wizards Team think it has some unique elements that will enhance the campaign they have in mind. I think the starting point these days is "What type of campaign we want to present this cycle." If come up with what they feel is a kick ass idea that use Dark Sun then they will go with that.

I'm not convinced that there won't be blowback if they do this with say, Psionics, and attach it to a Dark Sun module. There are a lot of players that detest Dark Sun (I have no idea why) - but will feel they're being armtwisted into purchasing a supplement they don't want.

Quote from: estar;869157I think many publisher outside the top five (Wizards, Paizo, White wolf, etc) would be more than happy to jump at trying to make a profit at Eberron, Dragonlance, Birthright, etc. If they were assured that the IP they produce was not flushed down the toilet five years from now when Wizards gets a new president or team.

I think the example of OSR proves what can be done with a "dead" system/setting in a open environment.

For example Dan Proctor did Labyrinth Lord under Goblinoid Games. One thing lead to another and Dan was able to obtain the IP rights to many of the Pacesetter games. I wouldn't say the line is a hit. But it perks along doing it own thing building up a fan base. I don't knows all the ins and outs of how Dan does business but I am sure that the ease of distributing PDFs and Print on Demand factors into it.

Basically if a 100 people can be persuaded to buy products for a line, then a author can turn a profit and find it worthwhile to make new products*. And the gamut of 2nd edition setting have way more than a 100 people interested in them.

*Note this is not the same as making a living. That is a higher threshold of sales. What the 100 sales per means that it amounts to enough money so make the author go "Oh well that nice, I can buy myself Fallout 4, a new graphics card, and still have enough to pay for the stuff i need for the next release.

So that brings up another question - do you think they would allow these settings to be parceled out for other systems? I can't imagine they'd allow OSR versions of these settings (that would be cool tho).

Quote from: Necrozius;869151I'd like it if some of these settings got a fresh coat of paint or rework, but, ehhhh I don't think it will happen. I hope that I'm wrong.

I'm sorta there myself, and yet not. I don't really want a reworking, more just an expansion on what's there and sprinkled hooks, maybe an adventure micro-setting. At most I'd take intertwined adventures in a sandbox campaign, which is where I like Starter Set and Elemental Evil in theory (though I would up the structure and GM advice quality if I was in charge).

However, and this gets back to art, there's a high threshold of trained professionalism in much of the older setting art — and a lot of it has a memorable voice. Not everyone likes the look of Brom or Elmore or DiTerlizzi, but they at least they don't feel generic. Similarly some of the better parts of setting writing, or at least cosmology, from 2e has an opinion.

I am looking back cynically through MtG cards and 3e/4e/PF lamenting the bland CG art pablum offered nowadays. Love it or hate it, from the past artists pulled back from being so "people pleasing," that's an aesthetic I can chew on. But nowadays, yawning golf-clap apathy? An "A" for effort, and it jumps through all the popular de rigueur hoops, but there's no soul. Watching the 'Planeteers' standing in 'Avengers' poses, slathered in accessories amid an ever washed out background to the vanishing point... shrug, ok, I'm bored, can I go home now?

I think 5e needs its own new setting, or at least mini-settings, a la jibba jabba's mini-settings project here. Something that plays up the restriction of classes and archetypes, but plays up the wonderful new 5e tools like Backgrounds and simplified wilderness exploration mechanics. Throw in some nullified magic and generalize resistances and immunities to certain damage types and you got yourself a nice vacation from Dorothy's black and white Kansas.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I would like to ask a question.

Suppose we have some offbeat setting without wide appeal. Call it Llamaworld because it's based on a pastiche of Andean folklore and mythology, whatever that is. WotC can't afford to support it in itself.

So you are proposing to make LW part of the Forgotten Realms, on the theory that as part of a larger setting, it will by definition be "supported" by all the crap in that setting. But nothing actually gets written for Llamaland (the now-subcontinent of FR) itself, right? So what's the point?

Or is the idea that Llamaland will now be "enriched" by stuff that bleeds over from FR. Great, now you've ruined Llamaworld.

Or that FR fanbois will now be compelled to pay attention to Llamaland and subsidize its development because they compulsively buy anything tied to FR? Oh...Oookay...

I just don't get it.