So I listened to the Chris Perkins audio... and my takeaway is that D&D is simply too big to dedicate to all of its flavored settings.
I personally, do not like the adventure-as-content delivery system. Simply because I don't use pre-generated adventures in D&D. But give me a big regional splat and I'm happy.
The problem of course is that we all like different settings for different reasons but with such a small production team - even though they're outsourcing a lot of that work, it's been pretty painfully slow. So my question here is -
Is it possible to unify the settings in D&D to justify some of them getting some content (like Dark Sun, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim)? Or is it even possible? Spelljammer served that need in 2e, but in doing so it created its own setting that exacerbated the setting-bloat issue. Is it necessary? Is it possible? How would you do it? Or are you against the idea?
Outside of Spelljammer, and prime material planes hopping a la Planescape, I just don't see it.
I mean FR and Mystara did a decent job globbing FR, KT, AQ, MZ, and Horde for Abeir-Toril and Known WorldGazeteers, Hollow World, Savage Coast (Red Steel), and Blackmoor for Mystara. And other settings fleshed out a bit with tie-ins, but not at the same product line entwining scale. But overall there was not so much "potentially all-unifying" settings aside from those two above.
Not really for the idea of another one either, unless they were fleshing out Alternity (but then I'd fear Star Trek Invades the Dark Ages game devolution). I'm not so hot on adventure-as-setting-delivery as well, so I am in your same boat. I like setting exposition with tantalizing gaps and adventure leads, and really like settings that remix the rules into different power dynamics too. Not really seeing that in 5e, but perhaps they are relying on the 1e and 2e cornucopia to carry that slack.
Quote from: tenbones;868946Is it possible to unify the settings in D&D to justify some of them getting some content (like Dark Sun, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim)? Or is it even possible? Spelljammer served that need in 2e, but in doing so it created its own setting that exacerbated the setting-bloat issue. Is it necessary? Is it possible? How would you do it? Or are you against the idea?
If the goal is more content then go with a open license for third parties. Let them take the risk at figuring who is interested in what?
The ultimate problem that D&D is a brand owned by multi-national corporations. As big as they are they beholden to the shareholder and have to justify every $1 they spend. Legally and morally they have to put that $1 where it will bring the most return.
What this means for D&D is that whatever project the core team pursue has to be the one that give the most return for what is invested. This means settings with specialized interests like Spelljammer, Planscape, etc will get the short end.
Due to how the product lifecycle work for RPGs, they can justify the occasional release of something offbeat. For example they are now possibly doing Ravenloft now they have a few more traditional adventures/settings/sourcebooks released. If it proves a major selling then they will follow that up then at some point release another off-beat product to see how it does.
But non-publicly owned business are free to pursue passion projects. And support them even if they are marginally profitable. This is why SJ Games still has a regular supply of GURPS supplements despite Munchkin and boardgames dwarfing the income that GURPS brings in. Because GURPS is profitable they can keep supporting it for the foreseeable future.
The answer to any question on how to get more support for X D&D niche is to get people who are interested making a profitable passion project out of X. Otherwise it is going to languish subject to the whims of scheduling and mass interest. One way of doing that is to make available for third party licensing for reasonable rates or even open content.
A Spelljammer reboot could do it.
Personally I hated seeing BX Known world folded into Forgotten Realms.
Quote from: Omega;868964Personally I hated seeing BX Known world folded into Forgotten Realms.
:confused:
I don't recall that ever happening.
Quote from: Opaopajr;868956Outside of Spelljammer, and prime material planes hopping a la Planescape, I just don't see it.
I prefer the Planescape model over the Spelljammer one. (It was never clear to me how they were supposed to work together.)
Quote from: Akrasia;868965:confused:
I don't recall that ever happening.
They might have meant with spelljamer or planescape. Both of which I kinda resented for trying to make my fully formed favorite world "merely" a subset of a larger one.
Btw, can we get a link for Chris Perkins audio?
I think it creates a lot of problems. For one thing, it diminishes every setting. A great world-shaking threat in one setting has much lower stakes when you can just hop to new setting.
There is also the question of interaction between settings. If you have elements of one setting crossing over with another, you upset fans of a single setting because you are diluting it. On the other hand, if you link all the settings, yet don't have any crossover effects, the whole idea feels empty.
That's without even getting into cosmology and religion.
I also agree with your concern that adding a linking setting is just creating one more setting that needs to take up space in the production queue.
Yeah in many ways it reminds me of the issues comics have with their myriad of realities of varying popularity and isolated gems that justify the existence of their otherwise barren worlds.
That's where the similarities end.
I'm a Spelljammer fan - I think the issue is better solved via Planescape, but again, it's creating new settings.
I agree that parsing things out to third-parties is a great idea, but it's clear based on the audio, they're never going to do that. At least not for a long time. None of these settings is getting a full development team. I think that's a mistake, unless they're trying to get people to be extraordinarily hungry for meatier content.
But doing that will insure that the less popular settings will ever get a chance.
Quote from: tenbones;868946So I listened to the Chris Perkins audio... and my takeaway is that D&D is simply too big to dedicate to all of its flavored settings.
Could you imagine if Marvel said "well, we can't make a Captain America movie because that would distract us from Iron Man; and we definitely can't make a Daredevil netflix show because that would dilute the brand"?
Quote from: RPGPundit;868984Could you imagine if Marvel said "well, we can't make a Captain America movie because that would distract us from Iron Man; and we definitely can't make a Daredevil netflix show because that would dilute the brand"?
Yeah those all happen in the same universe and cross over all the time. Each character adds to the overall setting, promoting all of the others.
So I could totally see WotC absorbing Dark Sun, Ravenloft etc... into the monolith that is the Forgotten Realms. Why not?
I would be a bit sad, but I still have all of my old AD&D 2e books.
Necrozius nails it. That's exactly why the Marvel Cinematic Universe *IS* a syncretic amalgamation of all their two most popular universes - the 616 and Ultimate Universe, with sprinklings of elements from others and outright removal of others.
Why not combine Spelljammer and Planescape into a single cosmology? Merge outer space/Phlogiston with the transitive planes and make the other planes synonymous with planets/crystal spheres. Then place all the other settings as planes/planets within it.
Want to visit the inner or outer planes? Walk through a gate or sail an airship.
What's sad is that publishing costs have dropped a lot since AD&D 2E when we had the largest number of supported settings. I'm also not a fan of using the adventures as system delivery....systems.
It's also a little weird to think that D&D is so large that we cannot support all of the settings. I think if they used settings as a single book campaign setting, and made each of them different enough in content/rule systems you could get cross over. Include mass combat rules in Birthright and so on.
Quote from: RPGPundit;868984Could you imagine if Marvel said "well, we can't make a Captain America movie because that would distract us from Iron Man; and we definitely can't make a Daredevil netflix show because that would dilute the brand"?
Thats about what does happen sometimes. The networks impose some pretty crazy limitations on Marvel and DC. Its why you dont see some major characters in one movie because it would "dilute" another proposed movie. Or because Marvel and DC have sold off the rights to competing studios.
Garweeze World in the original Hackmaster did just that (unifying the various D&D settings as one world), but Kenzerco couldn't get much written for it while they still held the license. The Mystara portion (HackWurld of Mystaros) was the closest to being a reality, but the author had personal problems crop up and vaporware it became.
Quote from: tenbones;869000Necrozius nails it. That's exactly why the Marvel Cinematic Universe *IS* a syncretic amalgamation of all their two most popular universes - the 616 and Ultimate Universe, with sprinklings of elements from others and outright removal of others.
The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a new continuity that tries to be consistent in of itself. Yes it use some elements from 616 and some from the Ultimate universe. However the 616 universe and the Ultimate universe does not exist in the MCU at this point.
What Spelljammer did and what being proposed here is taking pre-existing settings with their cosmology and mashing together 'as-is'
That stupid. They are separate works that are self-consistent with each other. Makes as much sense as throwing together Sony's Spider-Man/Fantastic Four, Fox's X-Men, and the MCU together 'as-is'. Hell the MCU knows this which is why the MCU Spider Man is also a third incarnation of a cinematic Spider Man and not a continuation of the Amazing Spider Man films or the Raimi Spider Man films.
Now you could create a new D&D Universe where each of these setting were re-imagined into one world. A world with a Continent with the DDU's Greyhawk, the DDU Forgotten Realms, DDU Dark Sun, etc. However the DDU versions will not be the same as the originals just as the MCU version of Marvel characters is not the same as 616 or Ultimate.
I dunno: Dark Sun could take place on a desert continent. Ravenloft could be a heavily mist-shrouded part of the world (another continent?) or on a nearby plane of existence.
I think that anything could work: D&D already has a big cosmology of planes. Unless the Forgotten Realms have already been 100% mapped out on a planetary scale with each region already tied into some widely known canon, of course.
For the record, I don't AGREE with this possibility, only that I could see how it could work.
...and they'd get to keep their precious MMO by expanding it with new "zones". WoW did that too.
Quote from: estar;869087The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a new continuity that tries to be consistent in of itself. Yes it use some elements from 616 and some from the Ultimate universe. However the 616 universe and the Ultimate universe does not exist in the MCU at this point.
You just constructed the problem we're talking about: the syncretic nature of the MCU is itself its own Universe. Take it a step further - the MCU *IS* within the 616 cosmology as one of their various universes (I forget the number - but it's in there, just like Spiderman and His Amazing Friend's cartoon-universe exists in the Marvel Cosmology too.)
Quote from: estar;869087What Spelljammer did and what being proposed here is taking pre-existing settings with their cosmology and mashing together 'as-is'
That stupid. They are separate works that are self-consistent with each other. Makes as much sense as throwing together Sony's Spider-Man/Fantastic Four, Fox's X-Men, and the MCU together 'as-is'. Hell the MCU knows this which is why the MCU Spider Man is also a third incarnation of a cinematic Spider Man and not a continuation of the Amazing Spider Man films or the Raimi Spider Man films.
Well... I'll play the Spelljammer apologist. Spelljammer bridges all these settings. It doesn't fundamentally change them unless you want them to change. This is why they have rules regarding Spelljamming ships in various ports in the Forgotten Realms (and yes, they're stupid, but exist to maintain the very separation you're talking about). Of course... the problem of the "bridge" becoming it's own setting further exacerbates the issue.
Although some of the game "worlds" (usually a continent or sometimes two) are fully mapped, I doubt there would be a problem with slipping another continent off in some place no one was looking.
Ravenloft could "be" anywhere, but a large part of the premise of the setting is that you can never leave.
Quote from: Omega;869061Thats about what does happen sometimes. The networks impose some pretty crazy limitations on Marvel and DC. Its why you dont see some major characters in one movie because it would "dilute" another proposed movie. Or because Marvel and DC have sold off the rights to competing studios.
These are not problems that WoTC would have though.
Quote from: Necrozius;869091I dunno: Dark Sun could take place on a desert continent. Ravenloft could be a heavily mist-shrouded part of the world (another continent?) or on a nearby plane of existence.
I think that anything could work: D&D already has a big cosmology of planes. Unless the Forgotten Realms have already been 100% mapped out on a planetary scale with each region already tied into some widely known canon, of course.
For the record, I don't AGREE with this possibility, only that I could see how it could work.
...and they'd get to keep their precious MMO by expanding it with new "zones". WoW did that too.
Meh, it'd only suck in the aggregate. Far too many of the worlds would be destroyed by such intermingling, even worse than what happened to poor Maztica in contact with Faerûn. And others, it would just make zero cosmological sense.
Ravenloft is a patchwork quilt of terrains, cultures, "tech/magic" levels, etc. with little need to adhere to an overarching rhyme or reason. It's a nightmare realm in the deep ethereal, designed to torment the most evil eternally — all powerful within their own self-flagellating abattoir. It has its own logic, and purposefully denies spell reliability and free movement.
Birthright is a land infused with magic based around realm management. The super-bad guys are literally called the "unseelie." Blood itself carries lineage, and popular image determines how much regency can shape reality. Adventurers marching off to "slay the regional big-bad" put their immortal soul in peril by as much as picking up tainted blood by as much as losing their life to the monster.
Dragonlance has steel a rare metal; Dark Sun, any metals and reliable sources of water; Hollow World has each locale mostly walled off into its own little realm. Each of them alter magic rules and strengths depending on their cosmological realities. Thrusting any of these into "just over yonder!" in FR might as well nuke the setting: wipe out Dragonlance's economy, flood with new priests, mass migration from Dark Sun into FR proper, culture shock and dissolution with Hollow World (goodness help the campaign that meets the "concrete & steel" elves with skyscrapers, robot servants, hovercars, and a craze for fashion).
No, it can be done, dumping everything into FR (
anything can be done). But the results would be shit. There is something to be said for discrete spheres, not everything benefits from "elegance."
At that point just bring back Alternity and enact the Prime Directive. It'd work better.
Planescape and Spelljammer should be integrated if they're resurrected together. Maybe make the deep ethereal and the phlogiston into the same thing? The material plane/crystal spheres would then be self-contained demiplanes within the deep ethereal/phlogiston.
Furthermore, the campaign settings they connect need to interact at least tangentially on the socio-political level if two-way travel is possible.
Quote from: tenbones;869109You just constructed the problem we're talking about: the syncretic nature of the MCU is itself its own Universe. Take it a step further - the MCU *IS* within the 616 cosmology as one of their various universes (I forget the number - but it's in there, just like Spiderman and His Amazing Friend's cartoon-universe exists in the Marvel Cosmology too.)
Yeah I can play the multiple worlds, alternate history, other plan card too. And exactly what will that page worth of explanation will improve over the present situation? Oooh look you can hop there and be in Greyhawk, hop there and be in Forgotten Realms.
While overarching Marvel Universe has multiple alternative histories and realms, along with DC's multiple Earth-Xs. What the Ultimates and later the more successful MCU did is reformulate the characters and stories into a new setting with its own continuity. However the MCU Iron Man is not the same as 616 Iron Man which is not the same as the Ultimate Iron Man.
What the OP suggests is unite all the D&D settings into a single world. That doing this will cause WoTC to put out more support in the form of a DDU Dark Sun, or a DDU Greyhawk.
What my point is that is all fine and dandy but the consequence is a different setting. That combining them will altered all the setting into something different. Perhaps not drastically different but different none the less. After all the MCU Iron Man is still a recognizable Iron Man who is Tony Start has a heart problem wears a powered armor suit etc etc. However it is not the same Iron Man of the 616.
For example I like the MCU in a way I never did for either version of the Marvel Univerese. I was always more of a DC fan when it came to comices. I didn't hate Marvel Comics, I like DC Comics more and put my $$ towards buying those comic. With the MCU, I enjoy it enough to make an effort to watch the movies and the tv shows. That because the MCU different enough cause a chance in how I feel about the material than the 616 Marvel or Ultmate Marvel.
The same thing will happen to Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun if you mash up up into a single world. Now with the right people it could be successful enough to grow a new audience for the D&DU. And thus warrant further support by Wizards.
But it not likely given vastly different assumptions each of the settings have about the world and cosmology.
Quote from: tenbones;869109Well... I'll play the Spelljammer apologist. Spelljammer bridges all these settings. It doesn't fundamentally change them unless you want them to change. This is why they have rules regarding Spelljamming ships in various ports in the Forgotten Realms (and yes, they're stupid, but exist to maintain the very separation you're talking about). Of course... the problem of the "bridge" becoming it's own setting further exacerbates the issue.
Yes the Spelljammer is illustrative of the point I am making. Despite one of it's central conceits as a bridge between setting it just became a another one of the many AD&D 2nd edition setting.
I stand by my earlier recommendation if fans want more support for X then Wizards needs to be pressured in opening up X to third party content with a open license or failing that a reasonable license.
Quote from: Opaopajr;869129No, it can be done, dumping everything into FR (anything can be done). But the results would be shit. There is something to be said for discrete spheres, not everything benefits from "elegance."
Good points. Which is pretty much why I'm cynical about them (Hasbro) doing anything that might dilute the brand. Forgotten Realms seems to be the default setting, and they're cross-promoting it heavily.
I'd like it if some of these settings got a fresh coat of paint or rework, but, ehhhh I don't think it will happen. I hope that I'm wrong.
Quote from: estar;869147While overarching Marvel Universe has multiple alternative histories and realms, along with DC's multiple Earth-Xs. What the Ultimates and later the more successful MCU did is reformulate the characters and stories into a new setting with its own continuity. However the MCU Iron Man is not the same as 616 Iron Man which is not the same as the Ultimate Iron Man.
Except that Marvel has just imploded their entire multiverse into one universe for this *exact* reason. That's why I used the MCU as an example.
- all very salient points.
Yes the Spelljammer is illustrative of the point I am making. Despite one of it's central conceits as a bridge between setting it just became a another one of the many AD&D 2nd edition setting.
Quote from: estar;869147I stand by my earlier recommendation if fans want more support for X then Wizards needs to be pressured in opening up X to third party content with a open license or failing that a reasonable license.
SO... here is my question. (And I do think your idea is solid on 3rd parties). But let's look at the current status-quo. There is 5e D&D. The only official setting there is material for is Forgotten Realms, and even then it's only a nice size portion. Is it in the interests of WotC to ever visit any other setting (short of licensing it out to 3rd party development - which if their numbers are to be believed might not even be worthwhile for those 3rd parties) in the way they're currently developing 5e?
I'm not certain your idea works. Ideally I'd love it. But under what circumstances, again, if their numbers are to be believed about say - Darksun - a sliver of 1% of those surveyed, even care enough to purchase a full book on the game? I'm not sure what to believe about those surveys honestly.
What settings could probably rightfully stand on their own? Greyhawk - probably. Dragonlance and the Realms... *maybe* Eberron (not sure about this one) and that's about it.
That leaves an awful lot of settings hanging out there without a ready audience. But then that was one of the problems that killed TSR.
Maybe a multi-setting book?
Quote from: tenbones;869153SO... here is my question. (And I do think your idea is solid on 3rd parties). But let's look at the current status-quo. There is 5e D&D. The only official setting there is material for is Forgotten Realms, and even then it's only a nice size portion. Is it in the interests of WotC to ever visit any other setting (short of licensing it out to 3rd party development - which if their numbers are to be believed might not even be worthwhile for those 3rd parties) in the way they're currently developing 5e?
It looks to me that Wizards is pursuing a modified Paizo Pathfinder path. In that the focus on adventures/campaigns. Paizo's prestige format is a six part Adventure Path. Wizard's prestige format is hardcover with one or two books covering a single campaign.
It appears that the idea is to generate excitement for the core books is by maintain a line of exciting adventures to experience. Along with the occasional strategic drop of a non-adventure product like Swords Coast Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. The Adventurer's Guide has some splat element in it but it also reinforces the released adventure with useful further details.
In short the campaign is the primary focus, the setting is just a support item.
Eventually they are going to try different things including a different setting. But... they will provide just enough that is needed to run the adventure. Releasing free PDFs as needed, and perhaps another adventurer's guide if the interest is there.
And I suspect if Ravenloft is the next campaign/adventure we will see what Wizards thought in that regard. If they set in Forgotten Realms then likely the day when they try a Greyhawk campaign or a Dark Sun campaign is a couple of years out.
And also note that adventures they are putting out are not really adventure modules or setting guides but something in between. More of a campaign guide with some specifics.
Quote from: tenbones;869153I'm not certain your idea works. Ideally I'd love it. But under what circumstances, again, if their numbers are to be believed about say - Darksun - a sliver of 1% of those surveyed, even care enough to purchase a full book on the game? I'm not sure what to believe about those surveys honestly.
What settings could probably rightfully stand on their own? Greyhawk - probably. Dragonlance and the Realms... *maybe* Eberron (not sure about this one) and that's about it.
If they pick another setting to use it will be because the Wizards Team think it has some unique elements that will enhance the campaign they have in mind. I think the starting point these days is "What type of campaign we want to present this cycle." If come up with what they feel is a kick ass idea that use Dark Sun then they will go with that.
Quote from: tenbones;869153That leaves an awful lot of settings hanging out there without a ready audience. But then that was one of the problems that killed TSR.
Maybe a multi-setting book?
I think many publisher outside the top five (Wizards, Paizo, White wolf, etc) would be more than happy to jump at trying to make a profit at Eberron, Dragonlance, Birthright, etc. If they were assured that the IP they produce was not flushed down the toilet five years from now when Wizards gets a new president or team.
I think the example of OSR proves what can be done with a "dead" system/setting in a open environment.
For example Dan Proctor did Labyrinth Lord under Goblinoid Games. One thing lead to another and Dan was able to obtain the IP rights to many of the Pacesetter games. I wouldn't say the line is a hit. But it perks along doing it own thing building up a fan base. I don't knows all the ins and outs of how Dan does business but I am sure that the ease of distributing PDFs and Print on Demand factors into it.
Basically if a 100 people can be persuaded to buy products for a line, then a author can turn a profit and find it worthwhile to make new products*. And the gamut of 2nd edition setting have way more than a 100 people interested in them.
*Note this is not the same as making a living. That is a higher threshold of sales. What the 100 sales per means that it amounts to enough money so make the author go "Oh well that nice, I can buy myself Fallout 4, a new graphics card, and still have enough to pay for the stuff i need for the next release.
Quote from: estar;869157It looks to me that Wizards is pursuing a modified Paizo Pathfinder path. In that the focus on adventures/campaigns. Paizo's prestige format is a six part Adventure Path. Wizard's prestige format is hardcover with one or two books covering a single campaign.
It appears that the idea is to generate excitement for the core books is by maintain a line of exciting adventures to experience. Along with the occasional strategic drop of a non-adventure product like Swords Coast Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. The Adventurer's Guide has some splat element in it but it also reinforces the released adventure with useful further details.
In short the campaign is the primary focus, the setting is just a support item.
Yeah. I kinda get that too. My "problem" is I'm lazy. I don't wanna re-write all the stuff I want right now (like trying to recreate my nation ruled by Psionic overlords) in 5e. Or if I wanna run Darksun 5e - I'll have to reinvent the wheel etc. Sue me, I want them to put out a nice book/boxset with the new rules and I'll give them my MONEYSSSS!!!! Alas, the world is not a fair place.
Quote from: estar;869157Eventually they are going to try different things including a different setting. But... they will provide just enough that is needed to run the adventure. Releasing free PDFs as needed, and perhaps another adventurer's guide if the interest is there.
This, married to my laziness factor above, is why I've slowly stepped away from 5e. I do like the game. I like the system very much. But between my day job, my freelance gigs, my fiction writing, my kids, etc. re-doing everything I want in 5e is... well... onerous. I'd rather just hand over the money - or Mike could call me up and hire me (if you're watching Mike, I'm serious, heh).
Quote from: estar;869157And I suspect if Ravenloft is the next campaign/adventure we will see what Wizards thought in that regard. If they set in Forgotten Realms then likely the day when they try a Greyhawk campaign or a Dark Sun campaign is a couple of years out.
And also note that adventures they are putting out are not really adventure modules or setting guides but something in between. More of a campaign guide with some specifics.
Yep - this is exactly like what they're doing with Edge of the Empire.
Come to think of it - they could always come up with an SRD that grows by posting up the rules everytime a supplement comes out. Doubt that'll happen...
Quote from: estar;869157If they pick another setting to use it will be because the Wizards Team think it has some unique elements that will enhance the campaign they have in mind. I think the starting point these days is "What type of campaign we want to present this cycle." If come up with what they feel is a kick ass idea that use Dark Sun then they will go with that.
I'm not convinced that there won't be blowback if they do this with say, Psionics, and attach it to a Dark Sun module. There are a lot of players that detest Dark Sun (I have no idea why) - but will feel they're being armtwisted into purchasing a supplement they don't want.
Quote from: estar;869157I think many publisher outside the top five (Wizards, Paizo, White wolf, etc) would be more than happy to jump at trying to make a profit at Eberron, Dragonlance, Birthright, etc. If they were assured that the IP they produce was not flushed down the toilet five years from now when Wizards gets a new president or team.
I think the example of OSR proves what can be done with a "dead" system/setting in a open environment.
For example Dan Proctor did Labyrinth Lord under Goblinoid Games. One thing lead to another and Dan was able to obtain the IP rights to many of the Pacesetter games. I wouldn't say the line is a hit. But it perks along doing it own thing building up a fan base. I don't knows all the ins and outs of how Dan does business but I am sure that the ease of distributing PDFs and Print on Demand factors into it.
Basically if a 100 people can be persuaded to buy products for a line, then a author can turn a profit and find it worthwhile to make new products*. And the gamut of 2nd edition setting have way more than a 100 people interested in them.
*Note this is not the same as making a living. That is a higher threshold of sales. What the 100 sales per means that it amounts to enough money so make the author go "Oh well that nice, I can buy myself Fallout 4, a new graphics card, and still have enough to pay for the stuff i need for the next release.
So that brings up another question - do you think they would allow these settings to be parceled out for other systems? I can't imagine they'd allow OSR versions of these settings (that would be cool tho).
Quote from: Necrozius;869151I'd like it if some of these settings got a fresh coat of paint or rework, but, ehhhh I don't think it will happen. I hope that I'm wrong.
I'm sorta there myself, and yet not. I don't really want a reworking, more just an expansion on what's there and sprinkled hooks, maybe an adventure micro-setting. At most I'd take intertwined adventures in a sandbox campaign, which is where I like Starter Set and Elemental Evil in theory (though I would up the structure and GM advice quality if I was in charge).
However, and this gets back to art, there's a high threshold of trained professionalism in much of the older setting art — and a lot of it has a memorable voice. Not everyone likes the look of Brom or Elmore or DiTerlizzi, but they at least they don't feel generic. Similarly some of the better parts of setting writing, or at least cosmology, from 2e has an opinion.
I am looking back cynically through MtG cards and 3e/4e/PF lamenting the bland CG art pablum offered nowadays. Love it or hate it, from the past artists pulled back from being so "people pleasing," that's an aesthetic I can chew on. But nowadays, yawning golf-clap apathy? An "A" for effort, and it jumps through all the popular de rigueur hoops, but there's no soul. Watching the 'Planeteers' standing in 'Avengers' poses, slathered in accessories amid an ever washed out background to the vanishing point... shrug, ok, I'm bored, can I go home now?
I think 5e needs its own new setting, or at least mini-settings, a la jibba jabba's mini-settings project here. Something that plays up the restriction of classes and archetypes, but plays up the wonderful new 5e tools like Backgrounds and simplified wilderness exploration mechanics. Throw in some nullified magic and generalize resistances and immunities to certain damage types and you got yourself a nice vacation from Dorothy's black and white Kansas.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I would like to ask a question.
Suppose we have some offbeat setting without wide appeal. Call it Llamaworld because it's based on a pastiche of Andean folklore and mythology, whatever that is. WotC can't afford to support it in itself.
So you are proposing to make LW part of the Forgotten Realms, on the theory that as part of a larger setting, it will by definition be "supported" by all the crap in that setting. But nothing actually gets written for Llamaland (the now-subcontinent of FR) itself, right? So what's the point?
Or is the idea that Llamaland will now be "enriched" by stuff that bleeds over from FR. Great, now you've ruined Llamaworld.
Or that FR fanbois will now be compelled to pay attention to Llamaland and subsidize its development because they compulsively buy anything tied to FR? Oh...Oookay...
I just don't get it.
Quote from: Opaopajr;869129Meh, it'd only suck in the aggregate. Far too many of the worlds would be destroyed by such intermingling, even worse than what happened to poor Maztica in contact with Faerûn. And others, it would just make zero cosmological sense.
(...)
No, it can be done, dumping everything into FR (anything can be done). But the results would be shit. There is something to be said for discrete spheres, not everything benefits from "elegance."
Pretty much in agreement witn the whole post. Besides, the settings are already loosely interconnected, as others have pointed out, by way of Spelljammer and Planescape. I'd say this is the best of both worlds; you can shunt PCs (and NPCs, monsters, items, etc.) between settings but they all retain their respectve identities.
Arminius is awesome for he remembers Lopango, a.k.a. Llamaworld, south of Maztica proper.
He also makes a good question about the point. Being mashed in only to be ignored, next cosmologically shat on by proximity, then collected onto the heap by fanboi hoarders... does not sound like the hotness solution. Very "design by committee" destruction through "shared inclusivity of IPs" and then promptly forgotten as a big business mistake.
Better to lay fallow than to have young pups poop in its shoes.
Quote from: tenbones;869177Yeah. I kinda get that too. My "problem" is I'm lazy. I don't wanna re-write all the stuff I want right now (like trying to recreate my nation ruled by Psionic overlords) in 5e. Or if I wanna run Darksun 5e - I'll have to reinvent the wheel etc. Sue me, I want them to put out a nice book/boxset with the new rules and I'll give them my MONEYSSSS!!!! Alas, the world is not a fair place.
This, married to my laziness factor above, is why I've slowly stepped away from 5e. I do like the game. I like the system very much. But between my day job, my freelance gigs, my fiction writing, my kids, etc. re-doing everything I want in 5e is... well... onerous. I'd rather just hand over the money - or Mike could call me up and hire me (if you're watching Mike, I'm serious, heh).
On the flip side you will probably run into the same feeling if the product line has a zillion sourcebooks. Wizards has definite balancing act. I think what they are betting on is if they make their adventure/campaigns compelling enough to play that will be good enough for the time pressed. While you may not get to run a Dark Sun campaign without some work, here is this really awesome campaign that involves X.
Or
They rely on the availability of PDFs to make the money off fans of the various niches of the TSR/WoTC product. Figure that you will just pick up anything you are missing and use the 2e PDF to run a Dark Sun campaign. That in the absence of an otherwise cool idea for a campaign that would make as much profit as a dedicated sourcebook.
Quote from: tenbones;869177Come to think of it - they could always come up with an SRD that grows by posting up the rules everytime a supplement comes out. Doubt that'll happen...
While it not quite the same they do have a growing library of free PDFs. The Adventurer's Guide was the product with extra bits that you actually had to pay for. And it seems more of an enhancement rather than a requirement for any the current or planned adventures.
Quote from: tenbones;869177I'm not convinced that there won't be blowback if they do this with say, Psionics, and attach it to a Dark Sun module. There are a lot of players that detest Dark Sun (I have no idea why) - but will feel they're being armtwisted into purchasing a supplement they don't want.
I feel the current team is quite savvy in a lot of areas when it comes to managing the fans of D&D. If they do do a Dark Sun release they will probably focusing on the cool idea of the campaign and make it obvious why it had to be a Dark Sun release.
Quote from: tenbones;869177So that brings up another question - do you think they would allow these settings to be parceled out for other systems? I can't imagine they'd allow OSR versions of these settings (that would be cool tho).
The magic 8-ball says "The future is cloudy". I think amount of Internet savvy is rising in big corporations including Hasbro. However it depends on the personalities involved. I think the current third party situation is a result of a inside conflict between those who hate third parties and open content and those who advocate it.
Hasbro does license out unused IP. Various wargames from their SPI and Avalon HIll are licensed by third parties that operate on the scale of a 2nd tier RPG publisher. However they are not really pushing "Avalon Hill" as a multi-media brand. They are with D&D so I would guess they will be possessive about any D&D IP. But I think in the fullness of time the desire to monetize their collection of IP will result in sanity prevailing for a third party license scheme.
Seriously thanks to T$R under Williams and later Hasbro acquisition, like Avalon Hill, they own a large proportion of the major games of the late 70s and early 80s.
Quote from: tenbones;869177I'd rather just hand over the money - or Mike could call me up and hire me (if you're watching Mike, I'm serious, heh).
If you dedicated enough to your favorite setting to want to write for it. You could just spend that time rolling your own that hits the same tropes. I know you are internet savvy so I bet you can rope in other like-minded enthusiasts and get something that has more than one person contributing.
Yes it is not Dark Sun however it is fan controlled.
I will say it not a 100% path to reviving something like Dark Sun. But at least you are doing something about it and there a concrete result you can take pride in. And the only thing you are wasting if it doesn't have any traction is time.
While not every revival project results in the success of OSRIC, OSRIC shows that it is possible to bring a dead product back to life.
They don't need to release whole settings. They could publish a book about Glantri. You want to keep it in Mystara? Ok. You want to use it in the Realms or your homebrew campaign? Ok too.
I don't see how Spelljammer or Planescape or any such "bridge" product line changes the basic problem, which is that with a finite budget and personal preferences not everyone is going to buy a ton of Forgotten Realms stuff along with a ton of Greyhawk stuff and a ton of Known World stuff and a ton of Dark Sun stuff and a ton of Dragonlance stuff and a ton of Birthright stuff and a ton of Red Steel stuff and a ton of Eberron stuff.
Is the OP's goal here an elimination along the lines of DC Comics' "Crisis on Infinite Earths," a mashing together of bits and pieces to make a singular new world? I'm pretty sure all that would do in this case is lose ALL the fans instead of just most.
Either you publish scenarios that DMs can adjust to fit into whatever world they're running, or else you publish more specific stuff and decide what to do more of based on demand reflected in actual sales.
... and Phillip struts his ass in here and gets all reasonable and shit.
Edit: I'm just tossing shit at the wall. The idea is the reality, it seems, that many of the settings of D&D will be overlooked or go unused in official products based on their business plan. My rumination is about how would these other settings best be served?
So yeah - you're spot on.
Well, it's not really a big problem if the guy buying Z wasn't going to buy X or Y anyhow so you're getting a profit you wouldn't have got.
Apparently the Avalon Hill (Hasbro) Diplomacy is still being sold. Some number of people want it, and you don't get the sale by not having the product for sale.
That is, it's not a big problem except for nuts who can't be satisfied without total profit-optimizing market control. Of course, if they had total control then they could just crank out any old thing and take your money.
Writing sourcebooks for the old campaign settings is not necessarily as difficult as it seems. There's already a huge library of TSR/D&D books on digital vendors nowadays. Wizards could save on costs by reprinting text from those books.
Quote from: Opaopajr;869205Arminius is awesome for he remembers Lopango, a.k.a. Llamaworld, south of Maztica proper.
Oh, yeah, Lopango, that's the ticket.
The only settings outside of Greyhawk (which doesn't count because we all know damn well Greyhawk could support it's own book) - that I'd want to see in 5e for a good treatment is:
Kara-Tur - because I love the setting and the corresponding material would be a great addition to the 5e game imo (new backgrounds, new archetypes, new spells etc.)
Al-Qadim - IMO the best setting ever to come out in 2e. Such insane high-quality throughout its entire line. I was privileged to be asked to do the 3e treatment for it in Dragon.
Dark Sun - I needs my grimdark. I needs my Psionics. Again - for much of the same reasons I want Kara-Tur. I think it could add a lot of interesting stuff that could be lifted for general use, while contributing new subsystems.
I'd love to take a crack at any of them in an official capacity. I guess it would only happen if they were trying to leverage Psionics.
I think this is my problem - I think marrying adventure-paths (or whatever you want to call them) to the addition of new mechanics and/or settings half-steps both the mechanics and the setting. How are you going to give Psionics the full treatment AND give the setting or even a region of the setting a good treatment when they're essentially competing for the same space?
On top of an adventure path? I don't see it. What WotC has done with FR has been relatively easy and portable. Sub-systems and niche-settings - like Darksun don't really work well with this idea.
The solution is with Planescape with the city of doors. If you don't want that go with Spelljammer for a fantasy space game.
Quote from: Snowman0147;869311The solution is with Planescape with the city of doors.
This.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;869285Writing sourcebooks for the old campaign settings is not necessarily as difficult as it seems. There's already a huge library of TSR/D&D books on digital vendors nowadays. Wizards could save on costs by reprinting text from those books.
Cost of producing the individual books might not be the stumbling block. WotC may have decided that the only people who would buy these other settings is people who would otherwise buy their FR adventure path books. So they're stealing their own customers from themselves from their centerpiece campaign setting and pulling them into a smaller, less profitable setting that they now have to support, and the only benefits to them are 1-2 low volume books per customer and the occasional gamer brought to 5e because their favorite setting is now supported.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;869347Cost of producing the individual books might not be the stumbling block. WotC may have decided that the only people who would buy these other settings is people who would otherwise buy their FR adventure path books. So they're stealing their own customers from themselves from their centerpiece campaign setting and pulling them into a smaller, less profitable setting that they now have to support, and the only benefits to them are 1-2 low volume books per customer and the occasional gamer brought to 5e because their favorite setting is now supported.
Campaign settings that don't take place on specific planets could be slotted as unexplored regions of Toril (e.g. Council of Wyrm's Blood Isles, Dragon Fist's Tianguo, Ghostwalk's Manifest, Jakandor, Mahasarpa, Nentir Vale, Pelinore, and Thunder Rift). These places could be explored in adventure paths and/or gazetteers without taking focus away from Forgotten Realms.
The setting that take place on their own planes/planets are probably unlikely to ever be supported. I'm sad there will never be an Eberron/Spelljammer setting with steampunk spaceships and stuff.
Of course, if Wizards is worried about other campaign settings taking attention away from FR they could bother to integrate the worlds politically. Buyers wouldn't have a choice of dropping FR because every campaign setting would have FR influence forcibly shoehorned into it. Sigil? Torilans have immigrated and opened trading routes. Spelljammer? Toril has fleets of them. Eberron? Toril is their biggest market for steampunk exports. Every time another setting is mentioned it is viewed from an FR perspective.
Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim are both part of Forgotten Realms.
Quote from: yosemitemike;869483Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim are both part of Forgotten Realms.
Maztica too, but most people would rather not remember that one.
If I'm not mistaken, most of the D&D-based settings already have plenty of books written about them correct? Is the game-system that significant of a deterrent that these books couldn't still be used for their content? I mean I still heavily used my 3e Forgotten Realms books for my 4th edition FR campaigns and it's information was still just as good.
I mean, I just received a large bit of pdfs for Ravenloft published for 3rd edition and I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to run a 5th edition Ravenloft game, these supplements would definitely come in handy to read and search through for ideas.
I guess I just don't see the drastic need for new setting content just because a new edition was released.
Quote from: RPGPundit;870281Maztica too, but most people would rather not remember that one.
Heh, Mexico-Realms with their own Conquistador inquisition in the service of Helm no less. Read the first book of that trilogy and stopped. When they removed Maztica for Returned Abeir I was ultimately surprised and elated, now Maztica is never coming back in
my Realms (pseudo-Egypt either).
The issue I have is the various cosmologies of each setting.
Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, not so much. Most of theirs are pretty interchangeable. But Krynn has it's own Gods and silliness involving the Alignment system, Dark Sun has no Gods, they got killed or banished or something (not to mention the sun has gone red and is dying.) Unless, they're saying that DS is actually Faerun's far future, I can believe that.
Ebberon is also pretty much like Faerun, but it's entire world is more or less 'mapped' out, making it hard to just plop it in some where. Not mention that it's Gods are much less visible than Faerun's.
I don't know how it's possible without mangling each setting.
Quote from: RPGPundit;870281Maztica too, but most people would rather not remember that one.
There was also the Mongol themed Golden Horde thing but it doesn't seem like many people care to remember that either.
Quote from: yosemitemike;870808There was also the Mongol themed Golden Horde thing but it doesn't seem like many people care to remember that either.
I'm pretty sure it was just called "the Horde"?
Anyways, it was just dull and badly compiled. On the other hand, Maztica was more actively godawful.
"Sons of Azca", a Hollow World sourcebook for D&D RC, was ironically way better at the job.