TheRPGSite

So here are my questions in regards to representing/understanding a characters capabilities/potential.

What do you find most effective. #,word,d.type,picture,a mix..why?
 
How much do you like to know about the game world before you decide on the character spacifics?

Does genre/style have any bearing, How so?
( in particular does it matter if the character is for a one shot/short game or a 'campaign')

Hope that is framed in a way everyone can respond to.Thanks for taking the time to answer! :)

What exactly do you mean by "capabilities"? DO you mean stats/powers/mechanics and the "optimal character build" sort of viewpoint?

Or do you mean roleplaying potential?

Or something else?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;393459What exactly do you mean by "capabilities"? DO you mean stats/powers/mechanics and the "optimal character build" sort of viewpoint?

Or do you mean roleplaying potential?

Or something else?

RPGPundit

By capabilities I do mean stats/powers/mechanics, though not necessarily in any "optimal build" sort of way. It could be totaly random, "DM" assigned or what have you.
Roleplaying potential could also be a consideration for many.

To put it in other terms. Do you prefer 'hard' detail (#'s, d.types.) or innuendo (words, phrases,pictures,backstory) to express the stats etc.
This  ties into what sort of resolution mechanic do you like and how do you like it to be represented on a character dosier/sheet if one is even required.

Does that clarify any?

Guess I'm a numbers guy as far as figuring out capabilities goes.

Pictures...not so much...I usually have a hazy mental picture but any actual drawings I make of my characters are going to get ridiculed ("What the hell is that?" and "He looks like a gay lumberjack", are both comments I've received, for example).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;39350
Pictures...not so much...I usually have a hazy mental picture but any actual drawings I make of my characters are going to get ridiculed ("What the hell is that?" and "He looks like a gay lumberjack", are both comments I've received, for example).[/QUOTEThank you for replying Bloody Stupid...the pictures do not have to be of your own making. Much like the avatars I see used here they can be culled from many sources, even stick figures can be used and a picture can include background elements as well.

Does this have a bearing on your reply? :)

Can you comment on the second question?
How much do you like to know about the game world...

I don't care how it's setup as long as it makes sense at a glance and it's easy to tell where your strengths and weaknesses are.

But I will say that I dislike descriptive terms for values when you must in turn, turn that description back into a value when it comes to the mechanics.

For example if you have Strength: Good and good really means +2 and that's the only purpose of putting the word Good in there, to tell you it means +2.  That just bugs me.

Quote from: kryyst;393565I don't care how it's setup as long as it makes sense at a glance and it's easy to tell where your strengths and weaknesses are.

But I will say that I dislike descriptive terms for values when you must in turn, turn that description back into a value when it comes to the mechanics.

For example if you have Strength: Good and good really means +2 and that's the only purpose of putting the word Good in there, to tell you it means +2.  That just bugs me.

Thanks for the input! A very concise reply :)

Can you comment on the second question.
How much do you like to know about the game world...

Quote from: skofflox;393541Thank you for replying Bloody Stupid...the pictures do not have to be of your own making. Much like the avatars I see used here they can be culled from many sources, even stick figures can be used and a picture can include background elements as well.

Does this have a bearing on your reply? :)

Can you comment on the second question?
How much do you like to know about the game world...

Probably my characters are just weird enough that I couldn't dig up something that feels quite right.

As far as information goes (about the world or campaign) the more the better, really.

Quote from: skofflox;393483By capabilities I do mean stats/powers/mechanics, though not necessarily in any "optimal build" sort of way. It could be totaly random, "DM" assigned or what have you.
Roleplaying potential could also be a consideration for many.

To put it in other terms. Do you prefer 'hard' detail (#'s, d.types.) or innuendo (words, phrases,pictures,backstory) to express the stats etc.
This  ties into what sort of resolution mechanic do you like and how do you like it to be represented on a character dosier/sheet if one is even required.

Does that clarify any?

For representing a character, my ideal system (I'm writing it) has skills like SAGA (sort of exist in three states: you suck, you're competent, and you rock... all scale with level) and perks like Fallout 3 (You just get another cool thing every level... no class restrictions, but there are skill prereqs sometimes). As for pictures... no system's gonna utilize them, and you can't draw a pic that shows everything your character might do, but they do make great game aids IME.

EDIT: Numbers for the randomizer, basic concepts / broad strokes for any decisions I gotta make, and pics for the hell of it.

Quote from: skofflox;393697Can you comment on the second question.
How much do you like to know about the game world...

As a Player that is entirely subjective to the story at hand and what assumptions the GM is making that we know of the setting before hand.  As a GM if I'm running a game in a prefabbed setting then I'd want to have as much detail as possible, whether or not I'd use it that's beside the point.  It's better to have to much then to little.

Quote from: kryyst;393565For example if you have Strength: Good and good really means +2 and that's the only purpose of putting the word Good in there, to tell you it means +2.  That just bugs me.

Yes, me too. Its one of my few pet peeves with Starblazer, for example. If you mean "5" then just put 5, don't write "Total Awesome" and then force the guy reading to have to go look up if "total awesome" is 5 or 6 (when 6 is ·"extreme awesome").

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;393824Yes, me too. Its one of my few pet peeves with Starblazer, for example. If you mean "5" then just put 5, don't write "Total Awesome" and then force the guy reading to have to go look up if "total awesome" is 5 or 6 (when 6 is ·"extreme awesome").

RPGPundit

So what about the # of tags used giving some benefit but not a particuler #?
For example giving the character with the most relevent tags the option of challenging the initial roll but if they fail the second throw the remainders (the original+new) are added, thereby creating a nastier result. This could be tied to having a higher tag total in another sphere such as "speed" or whatever.
Thoughts?

Quote from: skofflox;393868So what about the # of tags used giving some benefit but not a particuler #?
For example giving the character with the most relevent tags the option of challenging the initial roll but if they fail the second throw the remainders (the original+new) are added, thereby creating a nastier result. This could be tied to having a higher tag total in another sphere such as "speed" or whatever.
Thoughts?

What?

I'm sorry it might be the lateness of the hour or so, but I have no fucking clue about what you're talking about.  

What I was talking about was how the difficulty numbers in Starblazer (good, fair, legendary, etc) are all described with words and not numbers, and to find the numbers you have to go look them up in the section where the concepts are introduced, or in the appendix, rather than putting the number next to or in place of the word.

Its like if in D20, instead of saying DC15, you said "average", and instead of DC20 you said "tough" and then every skill, feat, or action description said "you have to beat an Extremely Difficult DC to succeed at x"; and you'd either have to memorize the name of each DC rating, or you'd have to look up, every fucking time, that "Extremely Difficult" means DC30.

What the fuck were you talking about?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;393824Yes, me too. Its one of my few pet peeves with Starblazer, for example. If you mean "5" then just put 5, don't write "Total Awesome" and then force the guy reading to have to go look up if "total awesome" is 5 or 6 (when 6 is ·"extreme awesome").

RPGPundit

For anyone that doesn't know...Starblazer uses the same difficulty scale/names for attributes and tasks...so we've gone from talking about characters to talking about task difficulties?

Quote from: skofflox;393868So what about the # of tags used giving some benefit but not a particuler #?
For example giving the character with the most relevent tags the option of challenging the initial roll but if they fail the second throw the remainders (the original+new) are added, thereby creating a nastier result. This could be tied to having a higher tag total in another sphere such as "speed" or whatever.
Thoughts?

[comprehend languages GO!!]
I think he's assumed you're trying to give multiple names to the same number, or maybe that "Total" and "Extreme" are evokable traits (tags) rather than really being codewords for different numbers ??

Quote from: RPGPundit;394236What?

I'm sorry it might be the lateness of the hour or so, but I have no fucking clue about what you're talking about.  

What I was talking about was how the difficulty numbers in Starblazer (good, fair, legendary, etc) are all described with words and not numbers, and to find the numbers you have to go look them up in the section where the concepts are introduced, or in the appendix, rather than putting the number next to or in place of the word.

Its like if in D20, instead of saying DC15, you said "average", and instead of DC20 you said "tough" and then every skill, feat, or action description said "you have to beat an Extremely Difficult DC to succeed at x"; and you'd either have to memorize the name of each DC rating, or you'd have to look up, every fucking time, that "Extremely Difficult" means DC30.

What the fuck were you talking about?

RPGPundit

My apologies for an ambigious example, here is another.
What if the "description" did not relate to a spacific number (this seems to be the crux of your dislike)  but instead gave you the ability to challenge (re-roll) or modify the initial difference of,for example,an opposed roll(s).

Example.
Combat situation using %d. for mechanics. Player A %d=70 vs player B %d=40...30 difference, a light wound or weak effect (on a 0-100 scale) Player B has word description that is construed as 'better' than the opp. (more depth/ backstory/experince, established going into the combat) so he decides to challenge the initial remainder (30) because he does not want to give his opp. any edge. He does not look up a # or anything he just throws the bones again...

So no looking up a specific term or need to memorize #= word stuff,which seems to be the root of your dislike in regards to the original thread topic..
Using words to represent. att./character potential  or #, which do you prefer and why?
Does that preference change with style/setting?
etc. or something like that.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;394260For anyone that doesn't know...Starblazer uses the same difficulty scale/names for attributes and tasks...so we've gone from talking about characters to talking about task difficulties?

[comprehend languages GO!!]
I think he's assumed you're trying to give multiple names to the same number, or maybe that "Total" and "Extreme" are evokable traits (tags) rather than really being codewords for different numbers ??

I am still refering to characters in general, understanding their capabilities via the attributes as a # or word...which do you prefer and why is the question.
 The tangent we are going into is about a word meaning a number and how it is easier to just use the #. Skills/abilities/Target # are being used as examples but this could just as well be att. so it is OK IMO.
cheers! :)

Quote from: skofflox;394347Kind of like roll with the punch from Rifts etc. that if you fail means you are in a worse position than before (off balance or giving the opp. a opening thereby increasing damage or allowing another attack or follow up similar to MRQII)
Hope this doesn't muck it up further...:o

Um, I'm also having understanding failure. Tangent: In Palladium. does Roll with Punch cause extra penalties if you try and fail? I forget.

Quote from: skofflox;394355I am still refering to characters in general, understanding their capabilities via the attributes as a # or word...which do you prefer and why is the question.
 The tangent we are going into is about a word meaning a number and how it is easier or whatever to just use the #. Skills/abilities/Target # are being used as examples but this could just as well be att. so it is OK IMO.
cheers! :)

I prefer numbers...usually I find that if you're going to add/subtract it, having a number is easier both due to what Pundit described (having to remember which name is bigger) and when you want to have more complicated mechanics based off stats like averaged derived attributes, or attribute damage.

 The name gives an immediate description of what's good and what isn't to newbies, but once someone's got a handle on the system they'll get a "feel" for what a good number is, anyway.  Also, names can be misleading -e.g. a score of "Typical" in Marvel Super Heroes actually means "Bog Standard Human" and will get your superhero kicked around the block. (Comparatively, an Incredible score score gives you alot of damage, but still fails checks reasonably often on the Action Table - oh well).

Slightly tangenty, but I do like the way Marvel Super Heroes has a named Rank and a separate Rank number that gets larger and larger. (you start out with 2 points giving a Rank increase and eventually need a boost of hundreds to get a Rank increase). I was working on a system that used that to handle stacking for awhile and thought it had some potential, but my player (on RPOL) eventually broke me by asking "how do I roll the dice again?".

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;394411Um, I'm also having understanding failure. Tangent: In Palladium. does Roll with Punch cause extra penalties if you try and fail? I forget.

It costs an action to try, so it isn't worth doing unless you are taking a huge hit that you can't just dish back.

Quote from: Cranewings;394412It costs an action to try, so it isn't worth doing unless you are taking a huge hit that you can't just dish back.

Houseruled if roll w/punch fails the attacker can cash in an attack or action  combo in effect.
It went likeways for the defender as well. If they did exceptionaly well on the roll they could apply a free action.
Could be used as a free move/position as well. It represented a mere moment of time but the better man strikes while the iron is hot! :)

Quote from: beejazz;393777For representing a character, my ideal system (I'm writing it) has skills like SAGA (sort of exist in three states: you suck, you're competent, and you rock... all scale with level) and perks like Fallout 3 (You just get another cool thing every level... no class restrictions, but there are skill prereqs sometimes). As for pictures... no system's gonna utilize them, and you can't draw a pic that shows everything your character might do, but they do make great game aids IME.

EDIT: Numbers for the randomizer, basic concepts / broad strokes for any decisions I gotta make, and pics for the hell of it.

Are those skill states asociated with a static #,d.pool or spread of #'s? What is the mechanic of SAGA?

What is the resolution mechanic of your system?

I have seen one game that utilized a picture as the primary conveyence of character capabilities. I thought it was neat.:o

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;39426
[comprehend languages GO!!I think he's assumed you're trying to give multiple names to the same number, or maybe that "Total" and "Extreme" are evokable traits (tags) rather than really being codewords for different numbers ??

I think you nailed it...though they are not codewords for different #'s in my example. They are the key that gains access to the ability to challenge the initial roll. Only one can have this ability ,the  re-roll, so it is more of a prize for the more talented character.

oh the vagaries of language...hope this clarifies something or other

Quote from: skofflox;394347My apologies for an ambigious example, here is another.
What if the "description" did not relate to a spacific number (this seems to be the crux of your dislike)  but instead gave you the ability to challenge (re-roll) or modify the initial difference of,for example,an opposed roll(s).

Example.
Combat situation using %d. for mechanics. Player A %d=70 vs player B %d=40...30 difference, a light wound or weak effect (on a 0-100 scale) Player B has word description that is construed as 'better' than the opp. (more depth/ backstory/experince, established going into the combat) so he decides to challenge the initial remainder (30) because he does not want to give his opp. any edge. He does not look up a # or anything he just throws the bones again...

So no looking up a specific term or need to memorize #= word stuff,which seems to be the root of your dislike in regards to the original thread topic..
Using words to represent. att./character potential  or #, which do you prefer and why?
Does that preference change with style/setting?
etc. or something like that.

What?! No, I'm sorry, I still don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about. Are you talking about Starblazer?? Have you actually fucking read Starblazer? Because at this point, I think what's going on is that you're guessing at what I'm talking about, haven't read Starblazer, didn't read my initial post well, didn't read my follow-up post well, and you're just a fucking tool.

The motherfucking "crux of my dislike" is that instead of saying 5 they say "Good" or whatever, when there is NO FUCKING BENEFIT WHATSOEVER to replacing the number with the word, since you have to either memorize the word-number table or look it up EVERY FUCKING TIME.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;394411Um, I'm also having understanding failure. Tangent: In Palladium. does Roll with Punch cause extra penalties if you try and fail? I forget.

No, no extra penalties, you just wasted an attack(an action) to attempt it.

RPGpundit

Quote from: skofflox;393427So here are my questions in regards to representing/understanding a characters capabilities/potential.

What do you find most effective. #,word,d.type,picture,a mix..why?
 
How much do you like to know about the game world before you decide on the character spacifics?

Does genre/style have any bearing, How so?
( in particular does it matter if the character is for a one shot/short game or a 'campaign')

Hope that is framed in a way everyone can respond to.Thanks for taking the time to answer! :)

I prefer numbers. I understand numbers. Math works very well with numbers. Throw words into the mix, and it puts me off. Having to look up numerical values for descriptive words just seems like a waste of time. I do like the tables or stat descriptions that describe how the different numbers relate with examples, like a strength of 5 being the equivalent of a 7 year old child, or something. I don't mind descriptive words like that, but don't expect me to have to write them on my sheet or do math with them.

When I make a character, I like to know a little bit of premise, like current events most everyone would know, or whatever the GM is willing to tell me. This usually helps me narrow down the race/class questions and its pretty simple to go from there. If not, the descriptions in the allowed resources are good enough. I don't need to know too much, and if I'm playing with pure hack-n-slashers with a GM that can't cater to my RP needs, I just make something that will complement the group and not worry about such details.

Things are different if I'm playing in a game full of heavy RPers. Then the setting becomes more important as well as my background, as these ins usually have an effect in the game.

Pictures can help with inspiration, but very rarely.

Length is an interesting issue. I'm inclines to put less effort into a short game, especially since such tend to be brief dungeon delves for a hack-n-slash fix or to test out things from a new book.

Quote from: skofflox;394453Houseruled if roll w/punch fails the attacker can cash in an attack or action  combo in effect.
It went likeways for the defender as well. If they did exceptionaly well on the roll they could apply a free action.
Could be used as a free move/position as well. It represented a mere moment of time but the better man strikes while the iron is hot! :)

That's pretty cool. Didn't you notice the defender getting the most benefit out of it? I don't know how many first level Ninjas and Superspies (admittedly a little power gamie) that had +9 to strike, but +15 to RwP.

Quote from: RPGPundit;394523No, no extra penalties, you just wasted an attack(an action) to attempt it.

RPGpundit

Evidently my Palladium is rusty, despite the laws of chemistry and all. I should have remembered that.

Quote from: Cranewings;394567That's pretty cool. Didn't you notice the defender getting the most benefit out of it? I don't know how many first level Ninjas and Superspies (admittedly a little power gamie) that had +9 to strike, but +15 to RwP.

Haven't played the pure version, but Ninjas and Superspies actually seemed pretty restrained for a Palladium game. I remember it had the sports skill that added +1 to roll with punch/fall and 2d4 SDC and could be taken more than once, I did make a character with an insane Roll with Punch once from that. RWP is the only combat roll that doesn't take an attribute modifier (apart from Strike with guns) so maybe that's why they're behind. (I'd considered adding Str bonus to Roll with Punch before as a house rule - tightening your abs to take the Impact- but that's probably too big a bonus).

I think Roll with Punch would be good at really high level to get that second chance at a Natural 20 to block a Death Blow, not that bonuses help here. Ninjas and Superspies had a different (weakened) Death Blow though, since there are styles that can pick up Death Blow at 1st level.

Quote from: RPGPundit;394522What?! No, I'm sorry, I still don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about. Are you talking about Starblazer?? Have you actually fucking read Starblazer? Because at this point, I think what's going on is that you're guessing at what I'm talking about, haven't read Starblazer, didn't read my initial post well, didn't read my follow-up post well, and you're just a fucking tool.

The motherfucking "crux of my dislike" is that instead of saying 5 they say "Good" or whatever, when there is NO FUCKING BENEFIT WHATSOEVER to replacing the number with the word, since you have to either memorize the word-number table or look it up EVERY FUCKING TIME.

RPGPundit

No I am not talking about Starblazer which I have never encountered. This thread is not about Starblazer though in your post you use it as an example. I am not guessing at what you are saying, I understand it quite well. You do not like systems (ex. Starb.) that use words to describe #. I have read your post carefully, multiple times, and understand your example. It is very clear and would be great if it had anything to do with the initial questions of this thread instead of someone elses reply. Maybe I am missing something here...

My original questions are not system spacific and if YOU read them carefully you will see that using words to mean #'s  is not even part of the question! I think kryst had this in his initial reply, I never intended that as part of the question though the replies were interesting. I have gone through my replies and see that I said word or # so somewhere that got interpreted word as # which is entirely different. Maybe the initial post was a bit ambigious, sorry if that is the case.
 
As to my replies I was merely using an example (not a spacific system) to illustrate a way words can be used to delianate stat./att./whatever and have effect in game without the word(s) refering to a particular #. Which is what you,kryst and others do not like as far as I can tell. Perhaps I did not illustrate it enough or very clearly, my bad.

I would love to hear your views on the questions I posed at the outset,of which the word,#,picture as a description is only one.

What do you mean "a fucking tool"...like a vibrator or something?
 cheers :)

Quote from: Cranewings;394567That's pretty cool. Didn't you notice the defender getting the most benefit out of it? I don't know how many first level Ninjas and Superspies (admittedly a little power gamie) that had +9 to strike, but +15 to RwP.

Yes it did benefit the defender more though the defender (usualy) had fewer choices as to how to apply the 'extra' action or modifier.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;394589Haven't played the pure version, but Ninjas and Superspies actually seemed pretty restrained for a Palladium game. I remember it had the sports skill that added +1 to roll with punch/fall and 2d4 SDC and could be taken more than once, I did make a character with an insane Roll with Punch once from that. RWP is the only combat roll that doesn't take an attribute modifier (apart from Strike with guns) so maybe that's why they're behind. (I'd considered adding Str bonus to Roll with Punch before as a house rule - tightening your abs to take the Impact- but that's probably too big a bonus).

I think Roll with Punch would be good at really high level to get that second chance at a Natural 20 to block a Death Blow, not that bonuses help here. Ninjas and Superspies had a different (weakened) Death Blow though, since there are styles that can pick up Death Blow at 1st level.

I might have said it wrong. Even without an attribute modifier, RwP gets really high. +3 for Akido, +2 for boxing, + 3 for gymnastics, +3 for acrobatics and so on...

I don't know how death blow works in their other games. You can really twink it out in superspies though. Like a Tae Kwon Do gu with boxing has 5 attacks per round at first level. If all he ever tries is the death blow, he will probably hit that nat 20 in a couple rounds (though maybe you only get one attack when using it)?

No that's true...I think it is easy for skills to give bonuses. I think a really twinky character might win out on strike-vs.-roll with punch bonuses if they can get a really high PP, since if you can max it out (30) that's a +8. (I'm not talking from any real experience though - we played TMNT recently for a couple of sessions, but the last time I played Palladium before that was I think in the 90s...a campaign of Palladium Fantasy and a few Rifts games).

I think in Ninjas and Superspies, a Death Blow just does double damage direct to hit points or something like that ? (Its been ages since I've seen the book, sorry). In the other games, a Death Blow is what it says on the label (target dies). Roll with punch means reduced to 1/2 hit points and 1/2 SDC). You can't pick it up before level 12 (Hand to Hand: assassin) or level 15 (Hand to Hand: martial arts).

Before I started this Pathfinder game, I thought I was going to be running a Palladium heroes / TMNT game. The most powerful NPC I wrote was a 9th level Dedicated Martial Artist with Tae Kwon Do and Kyokushin Karate. Mind you, I know a few other nastier combos, but I wanted to base the NPC on Mas Oyama.

Once per round, this guy could do a punch that if it hit at all, did double damage direct to hit points, and he could use his chi to pump the damage. The strike, I decided, should bypass any kind of force aura or other cheating heroes type stuff, meaning he could kill superman with a punch by breaking his chi.

Another good combo is to take the korean throwing martial art, can't remember it, and another internal form. You could get a huge chi pool and burn it to perform automatic flip / throws instead of a parry with a +20 bonus instead of parry. The throw makes the other guy lose actions and take damage. Put this guy on a team with someone that shoots him whenever he gets thrown and you have a great combo.

Quote from: skofflox;394454Are those skill states asociated with a static #,d.pool or spread of #'s? What is the mechanic of SAGA?

What is the resolution mechanic of your system?

I have seen one game that utilized a picture as the primary conveyence of character capabilities. I thought it was neat.:o

Basically, characters can be untrained (ability +0) or trained (ability +5), and they start with a certain number of trained skills. There's also a feat in SAGA (a perk in my game) called skill focus that gives another +5. SAGA's d20 so you know how that works. My game's roll under with a number of d10s based on the difficulty of the task.

Quote from: beejazz;394754Basically, characters can be untrained (ability +0) or trained (ability +5), and they start with a certain number of trained skills. There's also a feat in SAGA (a perk in my game) called skill focus that gives another +5. SAGA's d20 so you know how that works. My game's roll under with a number of d10s based on the difficulty of the task.

Thanks!
Can you provide more detail on your d10 system, esp. what factors are considered when formulating d. pool.
In regards to your last sentence,do you mean that diff. subtracts d. from pool or are you rolling under a diff. # with the total d.10 pool and counting successes?

Or something else?