I like the hanging out, and the guys are cool and all, but I'm so not having fun w/ the game portion at all. My character is poor, has crappy equipment(especially for Faerun), is always up against things like undead(sneak attack = no-go) and fights in skinny corridors(no using tumble to get advantageous positions), stuff like that. The DM says the encounters are the proper CR for our level, but if that's true it leaves me wondering if WotC actually knows how to do math. Hate hate hate . . . I thought I could tolerate this, but these problems just get more pronounced every week.
Sounds like you have a Mini-Haul GM.
Monty Haul: Loot, loot, loot, wonderful loot! Oh look, another +5 Vorpal Sword on that goblin. Which it never used.
Mini Haul: You have slain the fearsome Red Dragon! You find 13 coppers and a waterskin.
...Ok, gross exaggeration, :D but you get the idea.
So it sounds like the GM isn't inclined to think of things for the rogue to do, huh?
Why not seek out activities that your rogue can meaningfully contribute to?
If you can't (because the DM is railroading, etc.), ask him to put in situations where you can contribute (since you no longer have the freedom to decide what you're doing and therefore your effectiveness is arbitrarily up to him to decide).
If he refuses, I would consider leaving the group but if you would like to avoid that, I would ask if I could rebuild my rogue or retire him and play a new character (like a spellcaster).
The math of DnD4.0 gets way off once you hit paragon, maybe a few levels before if your players really mine the books.
What level is your rogue? Rogues are rather low on surges, which is a problem at low levels, but once your party starts accessing the infinite surge-free healing abilities, that becomes a non-issue (again, bad math).
Quote from: Doom;338989The math of DnD4.0 gets way off once you hit paragon, maybe a few levels before if your players really mine the books.
What level is your rogue? Rogues are rather low on surges, which is a problem at low levels, but once your party starts accessing the infinite surge-free healing abilities, that becomes a non-issue (again, bad math).
What?
Quote from: Doom;338989The math of DnD4.0 gets way off once you hit paragon, maybe a few levels before if your players really mine the books.
What level is your rogue? Rogues are rather low on surges, which is a problem at low levels, but once your party starts accessing the infinite surge-free healing abilities, that becomes a non-issue (again, bad math).
D&D 3.5.
Doesnt so much sound as much a problem with the game, as the game master. Its his (or hers) responsibly to ensure that the players are or have the opportunity to be prpoerly equipped. System wise 3.5 expects chaarcters to have a certain level of magic items, appropriate to their level. When you disrupt this it can adversely affect the CR to character level comparisons. Then the narrow hallway thing. Are you playing a module or series of modules that are using these hallways? If its home brewed, in my opinion thats again the fault of the DM. The DM is preventing giving all the charcters a chance to shine. The undead thing if its part of a story that involves taking down a necromancer thats makes sense. If its a constant random bombardment of them well maybe theres an issue.
Heres the big question. Have you spoken to the DM about this and voiced your concerns? If not you really need to. Maybe you'll understand what hes up to. Maybe you'll decide that this is not the campaign for me.
Sneak attack your compatriots instead of the enemy. Four times the loot!
Now that's playing a rogue :D
Here's a simple flowchart to tell if your challenges are level appropriate or not:
Are you alive?
Roll up another character.<<>> Level appropriate
Here's one for rewards:
Are you in debt?
Quit whining.<> did you bring it on yourself?
V
Sucks to be you. <> Quit whining.
:D
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;338985Mini Haul: You have slain the fearsome Red Dragon! You find 13 coppers and a waterskin.
I've got to do that to my group one day! That would be something to remember.
Quote from: Jason Coplen;339020I've got to do that to my group one day! That would be something to remember.
Yes. You could remember the time you got them good. They could remember the time they fed you your dice. :p
He says we have what the book suggests we should have as far as amount of magical gear, and since I don't have the books I really don't have anything to argue with. We're only level 3, so I know we shouldn't have like +5 vorpal like in post #2 or anything like that, but an acid rapier with a +1 to hit(masterwork) is already way outclassed by the damage the allegedly CR-appropriate creatures we've been going up against can dish out.
And the costs are kind of weird. When I wanted a holy item, he said it would be thousands of GP. Like at least 5k. I dunno what standard costs are, but I didn't have that much. When I found a weapon that would have incurred serious penalties if I tried to use it with the exactly same enhancement(oh, joy), I couldn't sell it for more than 500 GP, which the DM said was about half-price. 500 is not half of 5,000. I just wanted something that wouldn't totally suck against undead since I knew the DM wanted to throw a bunch against us(and they totally nullify the sneak attack that is my character's only saving grace already . . . on the rare occasion I can get into a position to pull it off, that is). But no. The one I want is too expensive. The one I have is useless to me and apparently bargain priced for no apparent reason.
Ugh.
Going by the book, holy weapons are pretty overpowered for your level, and a masterwork-acid rapier at level 3 frankly does not sound bad. Are you getting to do anything else but fight?
Can you exploit those narrow hallways to create bottlenecks that work to your advantage?
Can you play missile support during the whole undead business?
Quote from: Imp;339027Going by the book, holy weapons are pretty overpowered for your level, and a masterwork-acid rapier at level 3 frankly does not sound bad. Are you getting to do anything else but fight?
Not really. There are some character interaction scenes, but we have to ask just the right questions and stuff. Usually after a few tries all the players get this blank look on their face(myself included) and the DM has to give in and give us a hint about what he wants us to ask. Now that's annoying.
QuoteCan you exploit those narrow hallways to create bottlenecks that work to your advantage?
That's what the enemies did. They ambushed us from above and surrounded us -- a couple guys at the entrance to the skinny canyon, and a stronger tank behind us to keep us from running.
QuoteCan you play missile support during the whole undead business?
I could, but I didn't really plan on playing an archer and didn't take feats appropriate to it or attempt to get a magical bow of any kind since it was kind of a "for emergencies only" piece of equipment anyway. So the only bow I have has no bonuses of any kind, limited ammo(who the hell thought tracking ammo was a good idea? ugh!!!), and does crap for damage. Bleah.
ETA: I also hate feats. Whoever thought up the idea of feat trees, skill focus, and other such crap deserves to be shot.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;339025He says we have what the book suggests we should have as far as amount of magical gear, and since I don't have the books I really don't have anything to argue with. We're only level 3, so I know we shouldn't have like +5 vorpal like in post #2 or anything like that, but an acid rapier with a +1 to hit(masterwork) is already way outclassed by the damage the allegedly CR-appropriate creatures we've been going up against can dish out.
You're 3rd level characters so everyone in your party should have about 2,700 gold pieces worth of equipment and a generic +1 weapon is worth at least 2,000 gold pieces so maybe you're not as underequipped as just poorly equipped. Also, what kind of monsters are you fighting? Since, at 3rd level, you could be fighting anything from skeletons up to wraiths to skeletal megaraptors right out of the MM (and your opposition gets worse, I believe, with Libris Mortis, Heroes of Horror, and the latter day Monster Manuals).
QuoteAnd the costs are kind of weird. When I wanted a holy item, he said it would be thousands of GP. Like at least 5k. I dunno what standard costs are, but I didn't have that much.
A +1 holy weapon (yes, the +1 is totally necessary) would be like 18,000 gold pieces. That's over three times the estimate price you have in mind and almost six times as much as you have right now. You're not going to get one until 7th level at the earliest.
QuoteWhen I found a weapon that would have incurred serious penalties if I tried to use it with the exactly same enhancement(oh, joy), I couldn't sell it for more than 500 GP, which the DM said was about half-price. 500 is not half of 5,000.
I believe you get half value of the market price when you sell a magic item. So if you're selling a +1 holy magic weapon, you should get 9,000 gold pieces at least.
QuoteI just wanted something that wouldn't totally suck against undead since I knew the DM wanted to throw a bunch against us(and they totally nullify the sneak attack that is my character's only saving grace already . . . on the rare occasion I can get into a position to pull it off, that is).
Quit your bawling. You should have totally declined the task if you had the choice in the matter, stating jokingly out-of-character "Dude, I'm a rogue and I don't feel like playing Age of Worms or Five Feet Corridor".
QuoteBut no. The one I want is too expensive. The one I have is useless to me and apparently bargain priced for no apparent reason. Ugh.
Again, quit your bawling. The holy weapon is going to remain expensive for a long time and your DM is seriously only going to give you like 200 gold pieces for your acid rapier.
My advice would be picking up vials of acid, alchemist's fire, and tanglefoot bags, grabbing Rapid Shot, and becoming a halfling hurler.
The problem here doesn't really sound like it's the rules or the dungeon master.
Well, if he's not getting to do anything else but fight, some of the problem could be on the GM side.
As a rogue, it's likely to be your job to suss out ambushes, if the GM is doing his job by making the ambushes not totally arbitrary.
Quote from: DeadUematsu;339030You're 3rd level characters so everyone in your party should have about 2,700 gold pieces worth of equipment and a generic +1 weapon is worth at least 2,000 gold pieces so maybe you're not as underequipped as just poorly equipped.
Maybe. I just don't like almost dying every single time combat happens. I've had it easier than the other guys, though, especially our Cleric who's managed to get to -9 HP on two separate occasions before getting a lucky stabilize roll.
QuoteAlso, what kind of monsters are you fighting? Since, at 3rd level, you could be fighting anything from skeletons up to wraiths to skeletal megaraptors right out of the MM (and your opposition gets worse, I believe, with Libris Mortis, Heroes of Horror, and the latter day Monster Manuals).
There's been some skeletons. And some flying lizard monsters that swallow you whole on a successful attack(then do like 2d6 acid and bludgeoning damage each round thereafter). On that battle, two of the group actually
did die by the rules w/in the first two rounds, only to be resurrected by deus ex machina afterward. And just today, my character was taken from 17HP to -5HP in a single blow by some gnome rogue who would have killed me completely if he didn't arbitrarily decide to disappear and run off. I don't even know why he attacked us, much less why he ran off when he had the upper hand. It was so random.
QuoteA +1 holy weapon (yes, the +1 is totally necessary) would be like 18,000 gold pieces. That's over three times the estimate price you have in mind and almost six times as much as you have right now. You're not going to get one until 7th level at the earliest.
Yeah, see, I didn't know that. The DM told me holy was a +2 enhancement equivalent.
QuoteI believe you get half value of the market price when you sell a magic item. So if you're selling a +1 holy magic weapon, you should get 9,000 gold pieces at least.
He's saying 500GP is half-price for my holy longsword. No mention of a +1(I thought a weapon just had to be masterwork to add magical stuff to it).
QuoteQuit your bawling. You should have totally declined the task if you had the choice in the matter, stating jokingly out-of-character "Dude, I'm a rogue and I don't feel like playing Age of Worms or Five Feet Corridor".
Like I said, I've taken to saying yes(and in my head "screw it; it can't get any worse.") because the other guys seemed gung-ho to follow on the challenge. Unless you're saying I should have split up the party and/or fought w/ the group.
QuoteAgain, quit your bawling. The holy weapon is going to remain expensive for a long time and your DM is seriously only going to give you like 200 gold pieces for your acid rapier.
But I never wanted to sell my acid rapier . . .
QuoteMy advice would be picking up vials of acid, alchemist's fire, and tanglefoot bags, grabbing Rapid Shot, and becoming a halfling hurler.
It would be great to be able to afford any of that stuff. We rarely get any gold, and it goes away fast(I got 100GP, but then the DM decided that the guy identifying something for me was going to hold it hostage unless I gave him 60GP.) I have no idea what a halfling hurler is; if it's a racially-restricted prestige class, I can't take it 'cuz I'm an elf.
Quote from: The Shaman;339032The problem here doesn't really sound like it's the rules or the dungeon master.
One or more character almost die
every single battle. There have been no exceptions. A couple times there had to be a deus ex machina because otherwise we would have had a guaranteed TPK. The occasional close call is expected. A close call every time . . . not so much.
Quote from: Imp;339034As a rogue, it's likely to be your job to suss out ambushes, if the GM is doing his job by making the ambushes not totally arbitrary.
Not so much as a spot check. And I had no idea we were even traveling through an area where we'd even be single-file because we were supposedly outdoors on an actual trail(like the kind that WAGONS go down), and he didn't mention anything about a . . . like a skinny canyon. Y'know, skinny path, sheer rock walls on both sides . . . not until the ambush was already in progress and I tried to maneuver around one of my allies to get into flanking position. I just love having one of my best moves blocked by a geographical feature I wasn't even told about.
It'd be best to know what you expect from a game. Is this your first RPG, or have you played another game before? Have you played 3.5E before?
Also, this isn't the first time I got to play D&D. It's my first time with 3.5, but I got to play in a 3.0 game back when it first game out around 2000 . . . that group didn't have any of these problems. We had some close calls, but at least had a few moments in that campaign where we got to wipe the floor w/ our foes and feel totally bad-ass. There was some railroading because we were using a module -- we had all agreed to that knowing it would mean some more linearity than we were used to because we were all new to 3rd edition. Like I said, it had just come out.
Having every character in our group outclassed by almost everything we come across in a campaign where there are no real choices . . . it gets old fast. I wouldn't care so much about the magic items if I knew any other way to even the odds. There are a few helpful feats, but you only get so many feat slots. You can't take them all.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;339039Also, this isn't the first time I got to play D&D. It's my first time with 3.5, but I got to play in a 3.0 game back when it first game out around 2000 . . . that group didn't have any of these problems. We had some close calls, but at least had a few moments in that campaign where we got to wipe the floor w/ our foes and feel totally bad-ass. There was some railroading because we were using a module -- we had all agreed to that knowing it would mean some more linearity than we were used to because we were all new to 3rd edition. Like I said, it had just come out.
Having every character in our group outclassed by almost everything we come across in a campaign where there are no real choices . . . it gets old fast. I wouldn't care so much about the magic items if I knew any other way to even the odds. There are a few helpful feats, but you only get so many feat slots. You can't take them all.
The same thing could happen in earlier editions to some extent. Wizards in AD&D got few spells at early levels, and spent a lot of time standing around doing nothing. A single classed Thief was generally a very bad fit for a combat focused game at all levels. The power level of AD&D was generally lower, and you generally faced less danger in any given encounter, but a lot of what you describe could happen in AD&D as much as it can happen in 3.5E.
What 3.5E can do is to magnify the problems you describe, and have the system compound bad DMing. In earlier editions, the system didn't make bad DMing worse like 3.5E can.
@Geek: I suggest in-character stating "We're way in over our heads" and making a tactical retreat. As for the halfling hurler, it's a optimized build, not a PrC. You could totally pull it off being an elf (but being a halfling doesn't hurt at all).
Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339038It'd be best to know what you expect from a game.
That is really a good point. I don't usually think about it much. This is the first time my personal desires have clashed with how a GM does things so much. As I said in my last post, I played 3.0 when it first came out for a while. I also got to play a 3.5 one-shot at Dragon*Con a couple years back(kind of a mystery, but the DM did a good job of making it feel like we had real choice in how to go about gathering and following clues and stuff). I've gotten to play a few other games, too. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cartoon Action Hour, Marvel Superheroes(FASERIP), Dark Heresy, Wushu Renegades, Dread, Savage Worlds, Don't Rest Your Head, Primetime Adventures, GURPS, and more.
Something most games I've played have in common -- I like for my character to feel competent by the rules as written. Even in other D&D games I've played, I felt like my character was making meaningful contributions to the group. Even when we didn't have many magic items, or a lot of those trick items(alchemist fire, tanglethingies, etc.). I had some close calls in those other games, and that's fine, but it was spaced enough that it was dramatically appropriate. This is the first game I've been in in a long time that gave me that "Screw it. We're going to almost die no matter what we do anyway, so what does it matter?" feelings.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;339042That is really a good point. I don't usually think about it much. This is the first time my personal desires have clashed with how a GM does things so much. As I said in my last post, I played 3.0 when it first came out for a while. I also got to play a 3.5 one-shot at Dragon*Con a couple years back(kind of a mystery, but the DM did a good job of making it feel like we had real choice in how to go about gathering and following clues and stuff). I've gotten to play a few other games, too. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cartoon Action Hour, Marvel Superheroes(FASERIP), Dark Heresy, Wushu Renegades, Dread, Savage Worlds, Don't Rest Your Head, Primetime Adventures, GURPS, and more.
Something most games I've played have in common -- I like for my character to feel competent by the rules as written. Even in other D&D games I've played, I felt like my character was making meaningful contributions to the group. Even when we didn't have many magic items, or a lot of those trick items(alchemist fire, tanglethingies, etc.). I had some close calls in those other games, and that's fine, but it was spaced enough that it was dramatically appropriate. This is the first game I've been in in a long time that gave me that "Screw it. We're going to almost die no matter what we do anyway, so what does it matter?" feelings.
The thing with 3.5E is that it has a large amount of system mastery built into it. This is by design. There is a wide range of character effectiveness based on how you build your character, a lot more than most any other system. This can be compounded by DM behavior, like skimping on items(though yours doesn't seem to be doing so), or running a game in a way that exploits a particular character's weaknesses(like throwing hordes of Undead at a Rogue). A bad DM can exacerbate the system mastery aspect of 3.5E. This wasn't as large of a problem in AD&D, as the power range of PCs was much closer, and monsters tended to grind you down as opposed to kill you quick.
That being said, this hopeless feeling is above all else a DM construct. While I would say the 3.5E system makes the problem worse, the base problem lies with the DM. I play in a game where the DM likes to throw us into situations way above our heads 100% of the time. He lets us be powerful and effective(well above average gear, overpowered houserules), but then takes that away from us by throwing too many monsters and too powerful monsters against us, and then resorting to Deus Ex Machina to bail us out of it. This is a constant pattern, and I've taken up standing tough and crossing my fingers until the cavalry arrives as my standard behavior in this game.
Sucks to be you guys.
Quote from: DeadUematsu;339048Sucks to be you guys.
It isn't all bad. Most of the time, the Deus Ex Machina comes in the form of us just blowing all our Daily and item powers and being allowed to rest afterwards. Its kind of satisfying to defeat lv18 battles with a lv12 party, even if it takes forever and is frustrating as hell. I prefer things to be more fast paced, which is how I run things, but he likes the big epic boss battle. He realizes how long they take, and we fight a lower number of combats, often only one a night.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;339036The occasional close call is expected. A close call every time . . . not so much.
Why not?
I mean, if someone's pulling a sword, chances are the intent's to kill something. Why shouldn't it be adventurers?
Quote from: The Shaman;339058Why not?
I mean, if someone's pulling a sword, chances are the intent's to kill something. Why shouldn't it be adventurers?
It isn't fun in a game sense when the difficulty wanders into False Difficulty/Nintendo Hard territory. If your goal is genre/reality emulation, it isn't a big deal, but if that isn't a primary goal Nintendo Hard is pretty lame.
Quote from: The Shaman;339058I mean, if someone's pulling a sword, chances are the intent's to kill something. Why shouldn't it be adventurers?
That's not what I'm talking about at all.
Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339054It isn't all bad. Most of the time, the Deus Ex Machina comes in the form of us just blowing all our Daily and item powers and being allowed to rest afterwards. Its kind of satisfying to defeat lv18 battles with a lv12 party, even if it takes forever and is frustrating as hell. I prefer things to be more fast paced, which is how I run things, but he likes the big epic boss battle. He realizes how long they take, and we fight a lower number of combats, often only one a night.
Well, that sounds better than what Geek's going through.
The problem is railroading and nothing else. All other "problems" vanish with it.
Quote from: DeadUematsu;339069Well, that sounds better than what Geek's going through.
Yeah, our deus ex machinas tend to be god-character NPCs. Sometimes literally gods(or future gods or whatever). But they're usually at least level 20, and half the time have at least a few of those deity ranks(from Deities & Demigods I think).
Quote from: GeekEclectic;339074Yeah, our deus ex machinas tend to be god-character NPCs. Sometimes literally gods(or future gods or whatever). But they're usually at least level 20, and half the time have at least a few of those deity ranks(from Deities & Demigods I think).
Now you have my sympathy. I have not problems with a tough campaign with low magic item yields, but having NPCs continually show up to bail out the NPCs sucks. Mind you, the Forgotten Realms setting is all about PCs being the butt boys of various 'cool' NPCs.
I like the Realms and while I don't think that's the biggest problem* the setting has, IME a lot of FR DMs do run their games like that and FR players are understandably vocal in their distaste of it.
*Elminister and other epic-level spellcasters seriously act like they're 6th level wizards; not surprising given that Ed Greenwood has never seen any PC spellcaster higher than 9th or so level in his home campaign.
Quote from: Settembrini;339072The problem is railroading and nothing else. All other "problems" vanish with it.
I disagree. He is also describing a DM who is not doing a good job of matching challenges to his PCs, a task that tends to be more challenging in 3.5E D&D.
What you need is access to Grave Strike (somehow)- it's a cleric/paladin spell.
Grave Strike
Divination Good
Cleric 1 Paladin 1
Components: V, DR
Casting time:Swift
Range Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 Round
For 1 round you can deliver sneak attacks against undead as if they were not immune to sneak attacks. This cannot be used for anything else, only Sneak Attacks
Alternately, Penetrating Strike (it's a feat in Dungeonscape) will let you do half sneak attack against undead as a rogue in 3.5.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;339109What you need is access to Grave Strike (somehow)- it's a cleric/paladin spell.
Grave Strike
Divination Good
Cleric 1 Paladin 1
Components: V, DR
Casting time:Swift
Range Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 Round
For 1 round you can deliver sneak attacks against undead as if they were not immune to sneak attacks. This cannot be used for anything else, only Sneak Attacks
Alternately, Penetrating Strike (it's a feat in Dungeonscape) will let you do half sneak attack against undead as a rogue in 3.5.
There are also more reasonable gear based solutions than the Holy weapon, such as a weapon crystal that lets you Sneak Attack Undead, which isn't horribly expensive. There is also a separate crystal for Sneak Attacking Constructs, and you can switch them out.
Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339116There are also more reasonable gear based solutions than the Holy weapon, such as a weapon crystal that lets you Sneak Attack Undead, which isn't horribly expensive. There is also a separate crystal for Sneak Attacking Constructs, and you can switch them out.
We were just talking about those! (Weapon crystals).. yeah, those would be better solutions all around.
I also recommend multiclassing into Swordsage/Warblade if available. You can pick up some Bo9S maneuvers, which tend to be perfectly effective against Undead. You'll sacrifice some Rogue skills and Sneak Attack, but its a pretty fair trade.
GeekEclectic,
Honestly, man, it sounds like you're just in a lousy game with a pretty lame GM. You say you've talked to him, and he seems to be offering you nothing to help your having fun. I mean, it isn't his job to kiss your ass or anything, but he should see that things aren't working for you. If he was any good, he'd arrange things so that at least some of the encounters will make your character shine.
Also, it sounds like an all combat game. I suspect that isn't what you want, right?
Are there other gaming groups in your area? Is there any reason you have to stay in this game?
Good luck whatever you decide.
Quote from: Settembrini;339072The problem is railroading and nothing else. All other "problems" vanish with it.
It does basically come down to this, doesn't it?
GE, it sounds like a terrible game you're in, but if you keep playing it, then maybe I can help you out. I currently play in a cool 3.5 campaign now, so my feeble knowledge might be useful. :)
For starters, what are your character's stats?
Class, Level, Race, Armor Class, Ability Scores, Equipment, Alignment, etc.?
Now I think you're an Elven Rogue, right?
Okay. If you're going to be facing undead, ask the DM if you can grab the variant class feature for Rogues from The Complete Champion. This feature is called Death's Ruin, and it allows you to Sneak Attack undead for half damage, and you only have to trade in your Trap Sense ability. That will help.
Also, if you're tired of getting gimped on identifying magic items, you could take the Appraise Magic Value feat from The Complete Adventurer. It takes much longer to identify magic items with this feat, but it's also much cheaper, so take it.
Another thought. You don't necessarily need uber-powerful magic items to stop your enemies. Mundane items can do the trick. Make sure you carry a shitload of caltrops, tindertwigs, and flasks of oil. These items probably won't kill the guys you're fighting, but they can be brutally effective in slowing down your opponents.
Use a bow when you have to. You may not like keeping track of ammunition, but you'll like dying even less. Your character doesn't sound like a front-line fighting tank, so use ranged attacks to even the odds.
As for dealing with gods, well.....uh....bribe them with rum. :D
Quote from: GeekEclectic;338984I like the hanging out, and the guys are cool and all, but I'm so not having fun w/ the game portion at all. My character is poor, has crappy equipment(especially for Faerun), is always up against things like undead(sneak attack = no-go) and fights in skinny corridors(no using tumble to get advantageous positions), stuff like that. The DM says the encounters are the proper CR for our level, but if that's true it leaves me wondering if WotC actually knows how to do math. Hate hate hate . . . I thought I could tolerate this, but these problems just get more pronounced every week.
I haven't read any of the other posts yet, just wanted to state that your description above mirrors EVERY SINGLE EXPERIENCE I ever had as a player with D20....I don't know why, but my player experience sucked from 2000-2008 or so when I swore off playing it. As a DM I loved it, by and large (except for the prep time) but I also took care to mirror challenges and plots according to what my players made for characters, something that I think was never done by the DMs I experienced/was subjugated to as a player. I remember heated arguments with one DM in which I and the other players tried for session after session to explain to him that he was misinterpreting the whol CR methodology and that we were tired of being slaughtered every game. Gah! Flashbacks!!!
Quote from: Jeffrey Straszheim;339135GeekEclectic,
Honestly, man, it sounds like you're just in a lousy game with a pretty lame GM. You say you've talked to him, and he seems to be offering you nothing to help your having fun. I mean, it isn't his job to kiss your ass or anything, but he should see that things aren't working for you. If he was any good, he'd arrange things so that at least some of the encounters will make your character shine.
Also, it sounds like an all combat game. I suspect that isn't what you want, right?
Are there other gaming groups in your area? Is there any reason you have to stay in this game?
Good luck whatever you decide.
Truer words never written! The DM really needs to evaluate his players before the module ever sees light of day, and subsequently adjust accordingly. If the module is a fair challenge, the players will love it. If they feel like they are being punished for not min/maxing or predicting the best or most optimized build...something has gone terribly wrong.
Yeah, the challenges don't seem tailored to the skills the party actually possesses much at all . . . unless tailoring them to make the skills we actually have useless counts, but I don't think he's doing that on purpose. Just using the CR system hyperliterally.
And I agree with the "system mastery" statement way above. The few times I've played 3.x, I've noticed that picking the feats that seem good at the time(or make sense based on my character's actions) often turn out not to be all that great in the long run. I get locked out of a prestige class I'd have liked, can't qualify for the better higher-level feats because I forgot some prereq, stuff like that. I don't like having to research options a bunch of levels in advance to make sure I don't accidentally gimp myself with my choices. And multi-classing . . . ugh. It can go two ways -- some combinations are totally gimpy, and some can be totally godlike, yet all are treated the same way by the rules. My sub-par fighter/sorcerer will be treated the same as a Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage of the same level as far as the CR system is concerned. I had some fun with the research aspect way back in 2000 when 3E was first released, but as I get older I just don't have the time or desire to do so much work. I want to be able to just jump right in without worrying that I'm accidentally going to gimp myself down the road with one of my choices.
One good thing -- I have talked to my DM about feeling my character's not contributing much, and he's agreed to let me switch out a feat or two. If I can track down the sources -- official WotC D&D 3.5 products only(no 3rd party stuff). I'm trying to plan ahead better(I had a Cleric build, which I'd already researched, but someone else wanted to be the party cleric so I backed off, which is how I ended up with a rogue anyway, which I didn't plan for), but at the moment I'm just trying to get my guy better at fighting undead. 'cuz undead seem to be one of the biggest weak spots for rogues.
For the feats and weapon stones suggested above -- do you guys have references? I'm not limited to just the books the DM has, although I am limited to official WotC 3.5 products only. But if he doesn't have the book, I need to be able to get the official text for the feat/item/etc. I want to use to him.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;339065That's not what I'm talking about at all.
Then what
is the problem?
Too many deadly encounters? You can't have the special toy you want? You're exploring a place filled with undead so your rogue isn't a special snowflake often enough?
That's what I'm getting from this thread: "Oooo, the game isn't giving my enough spotlight time!"
And y'know,
maybe that's a fair criticism, but without hearing the referee's take on the game, or another player's perspective, again, I'm not sure either the rules or the referee are really at fault here.
Quote from: The Shaman;339757Then what is the problem?
Not what you said. Yes, I expect enemies who draw weapons to try to kill us with said weapons. That's, like, duh. What it is is that either they are too good at it for their CR(like I said, without a few DEMs we would have experienced TPK a few times already, and we're only level 3), or we're not good enough at it for our CL. One or the other or possibly both. I dunno. I just don't like having members of the party almost die(occasionally actually dying) every single battle. It doesn't feel very heroic when the DM has to bail us out so often and so early in the game. I've always thought D&D was supposed to be somewhat heroic. Scraping by by the skin of your teeth(and occasional DM NPC intervention) is more gritty.
QuoteToo many deadly encounters?
Yep.
QuoteYou can't have the special toy you want?
I don't actually care about the toy itself. I just want the fights to be somewhat tailored to the kind of party members we actually have. But since that's not happening, I was trying to tailor my equipment to the kind of stuff I knew we were about to face. And as I said, I don't have the books, so I had no idea a holy weapon was so expensive and overpowered when I asked for it. I could just tell from the name holy = good vs. undead.
QuoteYou're exploring a place filled with undead so your rogue isn't a special snowflake often enough?
I can't sneak attack. A lot of the terrain makes me unable to flank most of the time. My ranged weapons miss a lot and do paltry damage when they do hit(and undead, so piercing does half damage and no critical hit bonuses). Enemies of the "appropriate" CR apparently have a lot of HP.
QuoteThat's what I'm getting from this thread: "Oooo, the game isn't giving my enough spotlight time!"
No, I have plenty of spotlight time. I just suck in the combat parts. The other players don't do any better.
QuoteAnd y'know, maybe that's a fair criticism, but without hearing the referee's take on the game, or another player's perspective, again, I'm not sure either the rules or the referee are really at fault here.
Well, this is my rant thread, so whatever. If you can't judge accurately because it's just me, well, don't. I won't hold it against you.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;339768Well, this is my rant thread, so whatever. If you can't judge accurately because it's just me, well, don't. I won't hold it against you.
The intreweb is not the most forgiving medium - I find it challenging sometimes to really get the whole picture from a couple of posts on message board. Thanks for taking the time to expand on your earlier posts, and good luck wth the game.
Geek, tell us about your character. You're saying that he's a 3rd-level Elven Rogue? Okay....this is what I'll tell you to do.
(1.) Pick some feats that are appropriate for your character's theme and personae. Do you want a guy distantly related to the fey, or a swashbuckling-type character, or a smooth-talking dude, or an awesome sniper, or what? The feat system will let you create many of the concepts you like, but you need to have a concept in the first place. What is your character concept?
(2.) If you're fighting undead, ask the DM if you can grab the variant class feature for Rogues called Death's Ruin from The Complete Champion (an official WoTC product). This enables you to Sneak Attack undead for half damage, and you only have to trade in your Trap Sense ability. Remember...this is not a feat, but merely an alternate class ability for the Rogue. :pundit:
(3.) You mentioned fighting undead that are resistant to piercing attacks, so get some bludgeoning and slashing weapons, and use them when necessary. When fighting Skeletons, use a sling (bludgeoning) for ranged attacks...and use either a heavy mace (bludgeoning) or morningstar (also bludgeoning) for melee attacks.
When fighting zombies, use either a dagger or a sickle. These two are slashing weapons, and thus can be used against Zombies to full effect. You are proficient with all of these weapons, and they're cheap, so use them when you have to. You can use your rapier when facing more normal opponents.
(4.) You want to slow your opponents down, and you can do this if you're willing to spend a small amount of gold. You don't need uber-powerful magic items to do this. Purchase a bunch of caltrops, tindertwigs, and flasks of oil. These items will likely not kill your opponents, but if you use them, you may succeed in slowing them down.
(5.) Tell us what skills and feats your character has. Two characters of the same race and class can be completely different based upon skill and feat selection, so we still don't really know too much about your guy. Please enlighten us. :)
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;339987When fighting zombies, use either a dagger or a sickle. These two are slashing weapons, and thus can be used against Zombies to full effect
He can do better than that, he's an elf, he can use a longsword.
Well, Weapon Finesse might come into it, but zombies have crap AC anyway, unless your DM is putting them in full plate, which sounds sort of likely. :p
Quote from: Imp;340000He can do better than that, he's an elf, he can use a longsword.
Well, Weapon Finesse might come into it, but zombies have crap AC anyway, unless your DM is putting them in full plate, which sounds sort of likely. :p
Thanks. I forgot that Elves get free Martial Weapon Proficiency in longswords, and longswords are slashing weapons. Much obliged. :)
We hit level 4. These are his stats as of now:
Elf Rog 4
STR 8
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 13
My equipment:
Shortbow
Holy Rapier(2d6 holy damage, 3d6 if used against something evil). It's not +1, though I do get a +1 to hit for being masterwork.
Returning Throwing Axe(if not for the weak damage, exacerbated by my low strength, I'd totally think about replacing my bow w/ it -- I hate keeping track of ammo).
Chain Shirt
Bucker w/ DR 1/-
Amulet of Dragonflight(1 hr/day, doesn't have to be used all at once)
Ring of Protection +1
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Finesse
. . . I think I'm supposed to have 3 feats now, but I'm not sure. I only have 2 written down.
Skills(ranks/total including bonuses):
Balance 5/11
Disable Device 7/9
Gather Information 6/7
Hide 6/10
Jump 5/6 (mainly for the bonus to tumble, 'cuz tumble is sooooooo useful for flanking safely)
Move Silently 7/11
Open Lock 7/11
Search 7/11
Spot 6/8
Tumble 7/13
Use Magic Device 7/8
Equipment-wise, I'm pretty happy now. My character has been at least somewhat useful in the last couple fights we got in.
Feat-wise, I dunno. The weapon finesse is kind of necessary since my STR is so low. I keep forgetting about the combat reflexes, though, and my note on my charsheet doesn't actually tell me what it does.
I think I want to switch out Trap Sense for that Death thingie, 'cuz my DM loves undead. One Q, though -- does it only replace the Trap Sense, or do I also have to give up the "Trap Finding" that lets me find traps of DC 20 and higher? If the former, rock! If the latter, I'll have to think over it some more 'cuz I'm sure we'll come across traps w/ high DCs eventually.
I know some skills are more useful than others, or don't need as many ranks as other skills, stuff like that. But it's been forever since I had the 3E books or participated in a 3/3.5 discussion so I've long since forgotten.
Oh, and I was hoping for a swashbuckler kinda guy. Maneuverable(tumble for the win!), good sneak attacks, focuses on assisting others w/ flanking, stuff like that. We are allowed to multiclass pretty freely, though my DM likes to limit us to 1 PrC.
Is going straight rogue(at least until I hit a PrC) my best bet? Or are there some decent multiclass options? My DM likes knowledge checks, so something that gives me access to more knowledges than the one that's a class skill for rogues would be a nice bonus.
Your character is a great thief, but he's utter rubbish in a fight. My Battle Sorceror's Raven Familiar would only need some minor spell enhancement to give your Elf a serious fight, and he gets picked on by the DM and other players for being so anemic and weak. Heck, I could create 1st-level characters that would provide your Elven Rogue with a serious challenge.
Anyway, Death's Ruin has no effect on the Trapfinding Rogue ability, so it's a solid trade-in. It only affects Trap Sense, fortunately for you. That alternate Rogue ability is in the Complete Champion. It might help you...
Also, your Elf should have two feats, unless your DM allows you to take character flaws from Unearthed Arcana. ;)
As for the best thing to do, I can't really answer that for you. Are you willing to sacrifice raw power in order to follow a character concept that intrigues you? Your character build isn't optimized for ass-kicking, which is fine...as long as you're aware of it. I deliberately created a couple of Halflings for 3.5 that focused on healing and stealth. That was their specialty, but they were also rubbish in a fight.
Reading your post feels odd. You don't want to keep track of ammunition, but then you create a character with ability scores optimally designed for ranged attacks, and most of the more efficient ranged weapons use ammo. There might be a way around it...
I can see your game is 25 point buy. This is how I would have spread out your points :
Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
Add your Elven ability modifiers, then once you hit 4th-level, you pump a point into Dexterity..
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
There. You have a nice "Grey Mouser" type of character. :)
In any case, my suggestion is this. Multi-class as a Ranger/Rogue. The Ranger's Favored Enemy class ability works to full effect on undead, if you choose undead as an opponent, plus by 2nd-level, you can get either Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. The great thing about the Ranger is that they're also great at stealth. :)
If you decide to reach high levels in Ranger though, you might want to ignore some of my earlier advice, and crank up your Wisdom a little bit...:hmm:
If you're seeing a ton of big fights and little use for your skills you might go fighter/rogue or (if you have the splatbooks) swashbuckler/rogue and that really good feat in Complete Scoundrel that lets swashbuckler and rogue stack for SA and something else (I forget) that basically completely justifies swashbuckler as a class choice.
I don't like ranger/rogue much because you have to remember Wisdom when you do point buy, though it's pretty valid esp. as a scout I suppose. Fighter/rogue in a combat-centric game can cover stealth/scouting functions.
... oh crap but you're an elf. Does your DM give a shit about multiclassing restrictions?