Quote from: Imp;339027Going by the book, holy weapons are pretty overpowered for your level, and a masterwork-acid rapier at level 3 frankly does not sound bad. Are you getting to do anything else but fight?

Not really. There are some character interaction scenes, but we have to ask just the right questions and stuff. Usually after a few tries all the players get this blank look on their face(myself included) and the DM has to give in and give us a hint about what he wants us to ask. Now that's annoying.

QuoteCan you exploit those narrow hallways to create bottlenecks that work to your advantage?

That's what the enemies did. They ambushed us from above and surrounded us -- a couple guys at the entrance to the skinny canyon, and a stronger tank behind us to keep us from running.

QuoteCan you play missile support during the whole undead business?

I could, but I didn't really plan on playing an archer and didn't take feats appropriate to it or attempt to get a magical bow of any kind since it was kind of a "for emergencies only" piece of equipment anyway. So the only bow I have has no bonuses of any kind, limited ammo(who the hell thought tracking ammo was a good idea? ugh!!!), and does crap for damage. Bleah.

ETA: I also hate feats. Whoever thought up the idea of feat trees, skill focus, and other such crap deserves to be shot.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;339025He says we have what the book suggests we should have as far as amount of magical gear, and since I don't have the books I really don't have anything to argue with. We're only level 3, so I know we shouldn't have like +5 vorpal like in post #2 or anything like that, but an acid rapier with a +1 to hit(masterwork) is already way outclassed by the damage the allegedly CR-appropriate creatures we've been going up against can dish out.

You're 3rd level characters so everyone in your party should have about 2,700 gold pieces worth of equipment and a generic +1 weapon is worth at least 2,000 gold pieces so maybe you're not as underequipped as just poorly equipped. Also, what kind of monsters are you fighting? Since, at 3rd level, you could be fighting anything from skeletons up to wraiths to skeletal megaraptors right out of the MM (and your opposition gets worse, I believe, with Libris Mortis, Heroes of Horror, and the latter day Monster Manuals).

QuoteAnd the costs are kind of weird. When I wanted a holy item, he said it would be thousands of GP. Like at least 5k. I dunno what standard costs are, but I didn't have that much.

A +1 holy weapon (yes, the +1 is totally necessary) would be like 18,000 gold pieces. That's over three times the estimate price you have in mind and almost six times as much as you have right now. You're not going to get one until 7th level at the earliest.

QuoteWhen I found a weapon that would have incurred serious penalties if I tried to use it with the exactly same enhancement(oh, joy), I couldn't sell it for more than 500 GP, which the DM said was about half-price. 500 is not half of 5,000.

I believe you get half value of the market price when you sell a magic item. So if you're selling a +1 holy magic weapon, you should get 9,000 gold pieces at least.

QuoteI just wanted something that wouldn't totally suck against undead since I knew the DM wanted to throw a bunch against us(and they totally nullify the sneak attack that is my character's only saving grace already . . . on the rare occasion I can get into a position to pull it off, that is).

Quit your bawling. You should have totally declined the task if you had the choice in the matter, stating jokingly out-of-character "Dude, I'm a rogue and I don't feel like playing Age of Worms or Five Feet Corridor".

QuoteBut no. The one I want is too expensive. The one I have is useless to me and apparently bargain priced for no apparent reason. Ugh.

Again, quit your bawling. The holy weapon is going to remain expensive for a long time and your DM is seriously only going to give you like 200 gold pieces for your acid rapier.

My advice would be picking up vials of acid, alchemist's fire, and tanglefoot bags, grabbing Rapid Shot, and becoming a halfling hurler.

The problem here doesn't really sound like it's the rules or the dungeon master.

Well, if he's not getting to do anything else but fight, some of the problem could be on the GM side.

As a rogue, it's likely to be your job to suss out ambushes, if the GM is doing his job by making the ambushes not totally arbitrary.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;339030You're 3rd level characters so everyone in your party should have about 2,700 gold pieces worth of equipment and a generic +1 weapon is worth at least 2,000 gold pieces so maybe you're not as underequipped as just poorly equipped.

Maybe. I just don't like almost dying every single time combat happens. I've had it easier than the other guys, though, especially our Cleric who's managed to get to -9 HP on two separate occasions before getting a lucky stabilize roll.

QuoteAlso, what kind of monsters are you fighting? Since, at 3rd level, you could be fighting anything from skeletons up to wraiths to skeletal megaraptors right out of the MM (and your opposition gets worse, I believe, with Libris Mortis, Heroes of Horror, and the latter day Monster Manuals).

There's been some skeletons. And some flying lizard monsters that swallow you whole on a successful attack(then do like 2d6 acid and bludgeoning damage each round thereafter). On that battle, two of the group actually did die by the rules w/in the first two rounds, only to be resurrected by deus ex machina afterward. And just today, my character was taken from 17HP to -5HP in a single blow by some gnome rogue who would have killed me completely if he didn't arbitrarily decide to disappear and run off. I don't even know why he attacked us, much less why he ran off when he had the upper hand. It was so random.

QuoteA +1 holy weapon (yes, the +1 is totally necessary) would be like 18,000 gold pieces. That's over three times the estimate price you have in mind and almost six times as much as you have right now. You're not going to get one until 7th level at the earliest.

Yeah, see, I didn't know that. The DM told me holy was a +2 enhancement equivalent.

QuoteI believe you get half value of the market price when you sell a magic item. So if you're selling a +1 holy magic weapon, you should get 9,000 gold pieces at least.

He's saying 500GP is half-price for my holy longsword. No mention of a +1(I thought a weapon just had to be masterwork to add magical stuff to it).

QuoteQuit your bawling. You should have totally declined the task if you had the choice in the matter, stating jokingly out-of-character "Dude, I'm a rogue and I don't feel like playing Age of Worms or Five Feet Corridor".

Like I said, I've taken to saying yes(and in my head "screw it; it can't get any worse.") because the other guys seemed gung-ho to follow on the challenge. Unless you're saying I should have split up the party and/or fought w/ the group.

QuoteAgain, quit your bawling. The holy weapon is going to remain expensive for a long time and your DM is seriously only going to give you like 200 gold pieces for your acid rapier.

But I never wanted to sell my acid rapier . . .

QuoteMy advice would be picking up vials of acid, alchemist's fire, and tanglefoot bags, grabbing Rapid Shot, and becoming a halfling hurler.

It would be great to be able to afford any of that stuff. We rarely get any gold, and it goes away fast(I got 100GP, but then the DM decided that the guy identifying something for me was going to hold it hostage unless I gave him 60GP.) I have no idea what a halfling hurler is; if it's a racially-restricted prestige class, I can't take it 'cuz I'm an elf.

Quote from: The Shaman;339032The problem here doesn't really sound like it's the rules or the dungeon master.

One or more character almost die every single battle. There have been no exceptions. A couple times there had to be a deus ex machina because otherwise we would have had a guaranteed TPK. The occasional close call is expected. A close call every time . . . not so much.

Quote from: Imp;339034As a rogue, it's likely to be your job to suss out ambushes, if the GM is doing his job by making the ambushes not totally arbitrary.

Not so much as a spot check. And I had no idea we were even traveling through an area where we'd even be single-file because we were supposedly outdoors on an actual trail(like the kind that WAGONS go down), and he didn't mention anything about a . . . like a skinny canyon. Y'know, skinny path, sheer rock walls on both sides . . . not until the ambush was already in progress and I tried to maneuver around one of my allies to get into flanking position. I just love having one of my best moves blocked by a geographical feature I wasn't even told about.

It'd be best to know what you expect from a game. Is this your first RPG, or have you played another game before? Have you played 3.5E before?

Also, this isn't the first time I got to play D&D. It's my first time with 3.5, but I got to play in a 3.0 game back when it first game out around 2000 . . . that group didn't have any of these problems. We had some close calls, but at least had a few moments in that campaign where we got to wipe the floor w/ our foes and feel totally bad-ass. There was some railroading because we were using a module -- we had all agreed to that knowing it would mean some more linearity than we were used to because we were all new to 3rd edition. Like I said, it had just come out.

Having every character in our group outclassed by almost everything we come across in a campaign where there are no real choices . . . it gets old fast. I wouldn't care so much about the magic items if I knew any other way to even the odds. There are a few helpful feats, but you only get so many feat slots. You can't take them all.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;339039Also, this isn't the first time I got to play D&D. It's my first time with 3.5, but I got to play in a 3.0 game back when it first game out around 2000 . . . that group didn't have any of these problems. We had some close calls, but at least had a few moments in that campaign where we got to wipe the floor w/ our foes and feel totally bad-ass. There was some railroading because we were using a module -- we had all agreed to that knowing it would mean some more linearity than we were used to because we were all new to 3rd edition. Like I said, it had just come out.

Having every character in our group outclassed by almost everything we come across in a campaign where there are no real choices . . . it gets old fast. I wouldn't care so much about the magic items if I knew any other way to even the odds. There are a few helpful feats, but you only get so many feat slots. You can't take them all.

The same thing could happen in earlier editions to some extent. Wizards in AD&D got few spells at early levels, and spent a lot of time standing around doing nothing. A single classed Thief was generally a very bad fit for a combat focused game at all levels. The power level of AD&D was generally lower, and you generally faced less danger in any given encounter, but a lot of what you describe could happen in AD&D as much as it can happen in 3.5E.

What 3.5E can do is to magnify the problems you describe, and have the system compound bad DMing. In earlier editions, the system didn't make bad DMing worse like 3.5E can.

@Geek: I suggest in-character stating "We're way in over our heads" and making a tactical retreat. As for the halfling hurler, it's a optimized build, not a PrC. You could totally pull it off being an elf (but being a halfling doesn't hurt at all).

Quote from: thecasualoblivion;339038It'd be best to know what you expect from a game.

That is really a good point. I don't usually think about it much. This is the first time my personal desires have clashed with how a GM does things so much. As I said in my last post, I played 3.0 when it first came out for a while. I also got to play a 3.5 one-shot at Dragon*Con a couple years back(kind of a mystery, but the DM did a good job of making it feel like we had real choice in how to go about gathering and following clues and stuff). I've gotten to play a few other games, too. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cartoon Action Hour, Marvel Superheroes(FASERIP), Dark Heresy, Wushu Renegades, Dread, Savage Worlds, Don't Rest Your Head, Primetime Adventures, GURPS, and more.

Something most games I've played have in common -- I like for my character to feel competent by the rules as written. Even in other D&D games I've played, I felt like my character was making meaningful contributions to the group. Even when we didn't have many magic items, or a lot of those trick items(alchemist fire, tanglethingies, etc.). I had some close calls in those other games, and that's fine, but it was spaced enough that it was dramatically appropriate. This is the first game I've been in in a long time that gave me that "Screw it. We're going to almost die no matter what we do anyway, so what does it matter?" feelings.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;339042That is really a good point. I don't usually think about it much. This is the first time my personal desires have clashed with how a GM does things so much. As I said in my last post, I played 3.0 when it first came out for a while. I also got to play a 3.5 one-shot at Dragon*Con a couple years back(kind of a mystery, but the DM did a good job of making it feel like we had real choice in how to go about gathering and following clues and stuff). I've gotten to play a few other games, too. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cartoon Action Hour, Marvel Superheroes(FASERIP), Dark Heresy, Wushu Renegades, Dread, Savage Worlds, Don't Rest Your Head, Primetime Adventures, GURPS, and more.

Something most games I've played have in common -- I like for my character to feel competent by the rules as written. Even in other D&D games I've played, I felt like my character was making meaningful contributions to the group. Even when we didn't have many magic items, or a lot of those trick items(alchemist fire, tanglethingies, etc.). I had some close calls in those other games, and that's fine, but it was spaced enough that it was dramatically appropriate. This is the first game I've been in in a long time that gave me that "Screw it. We're going to almost die no matter what we do anyway, so what does it matter?" feelings.

The thing with 3.5E is that it has a large amount of system mastery built into it. This is by design. There is a wide range of character effectiveness based on how you build your character, a lot more than most any other system. This can be compounded by DM behavior, like skimping on items(though yours doesn't seem to be doing so), or running a game in a way that exploits a particular character's weaknesses(like throwing hordes of Undead at a Rogue). A bad DM can exacerbate the system mastery aspect of 3.5E. This wasn't as large of a problem in AD&D, as the power range of PCs was much closer, and monsters tended to grind you down as opposed to kill you quick.

That being said, this hopeless feeling is above all else a DM construct. While I would say the 3.5E system makes the problem worse, the base problem lies with the DM. I play in a game where the DM likes to throw us into situations way above our heads 100% of the time. He lets us be powerful and effective(well above average gear, overpowered houserules), but then takes that away from us by throwing too many monsters and too powerful monsters against us, and then resorting to Deus Ex Machina to bail us out of it. This is a constant pattern, and I've taken up standing tough and crossing my fingers until the cavalry arrives as my standard behavior in this game.

Sucks to be you guys.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;339048Sucks to be you guys.

It isn't all bad. Most of the time, the Deus Ex Machina comes in the form of us just blowing all our Daily and item powers and being allowed to rest afterwards. Its kind of satisfying to defeat lv18 battles with a lv12 party, even if it takes forever and is frustrating as hell. I prefer things to be more fast paced, which is how I run things, but he likes the big epic boss battle. He realizes how long they take, and we fight a lower number of combats, often only one a night.

Quote from: GeekEclectic;339036The occasional close call is expected. A close call every time . . . not so much.

Why not?

I mean, if someone's pulling a sword, chances are the intent's to kill something. Why shouldn't it be adventurers?

Quote from: The Shaman;339058Why not?

I mean, if someone's pulling a sword, chances are the intent's to kill something. Why shouldn't it be adventurers?

It isn't fun in a game sense when the difficulty wanders into False Difficulty/Nintendo Hard territory. If your goal is genre/reality emulation, it isn't a big deal, but if that isn't a primary goal Nintendo Hard is pretty lame.