I seem to have noticed that in recent months boards like Dragonsfoot (D&D), Citizens of the Imperium (Traveller) and a number of smaller ones have been approaching near-undead status. People are still posting contributions, but they're getting sparse, short, repetitive, and hyper-specialized.
At some point shortly after 2000, grognardism was blooming, but it seems to be losing its oomph.
Yes, no?
Well, crusty old fucks can only say the same thing just so many times before their audience stops listening.
!i!
Or, in a strange twist, they are off playing now that they have just enough to keep networked.
I envy...
Starting around October almost every board I've ever visited begins slowing down for the holidays. The smaller ones somes don't survive it. I don't think there's any fear that grognards are dead. Most of them are still less than 60, and can even roll dice with very little assistance.
Quote from: James McMurrayStarting around October almost every board I've ever visited begins slowing down for the holidays. The smaller ones somes don't survive it. I don't think there's any fear that grognards are dead. Most of them are still less than 60, and can even roll dice with very little assistance.
I only have trouble when the dice fall on the floor - I can't bend down from my walker far enough to get them. Dang things just sit there, tantalizingly out of reach.
I'm thinking of switching to diceless...
-clash
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI seem to have noticed that in recent months boards like Dragonsfoot (D&D), Citizens of the Imperium (Traveller) and a number of smaller ones have been approaching near-undead status. People are still posting contributions, but they're getting sparse, short, repetitive, and hyper-specialized.
At some point shortly after 2000, grognardism was blooming, but it seems to be losing its oomph.
Yes, no?
Yes & No
DF's take doesn't hold much interest too me these days (so yes, lost its oomph to me), but I still enjoy CotI (so no, no oomph lost).
Much of CotI seems these days geared to what Mongoose is doing and the fantasy Traveller stuff, of the topics outside of T20. UGM was all the rage for a while and I really enjoyed the fleet combat threads when they were roaring.
A couple of the big posters of a year ago with many great ideas have gone silent as of the last 4 months. For at least one of those, real life has stepped up to claim more of his time. The crash/server switch that happened a while back that mucked up the search feature and archives has not helped. But for myself, I'm too busy playing to do much on more than one board, except for the newest and shiniest one to catch my interest. :)
Quote from: flyingmiceI only have trouble when the dice fall on the floor - I can't bend down from my walker far enough to get them. Dang things just sit there, tantalizingly out of reach.
I'm thinking of switching to diceless...
-clash
Don't worry clash, I'm sure can all pitch in and get you some metal dice and a magnetic cane for the holidays. :keke:
Quote from: XantherBut for myself, I'm too busy playing to do much on more than one board, except for the newest and shiniest one to catch my interest. :)
That's just it, though. The announcement of the newest shiny, T5, was greeted with deafening apathy. Not everyone was in on the playtest/moot, so this should be exciting news, pro or con, for *somebody*. But no.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWell, crusty old fucks can only say the same thing just so many times before their audience stops listening.
!i!
Some of us crusty old fucks would just rather play than talk about playing.
Quote from: jeff37923Some of us crusty old fucks would just rather play than talk about playing.
BINGO!!!I browsed at CotI for awhile - they always seem to argue about stuff and never mentioned if they actually played any more.
Most of them seem like they qualify for what Kyle Aaron might call BNG status.
- Ed C.
I've tried a couple of times to participate in CoTI, but that damn board hates me. You can't even browse without being logged in, and when I registered, never received a confirming email. Bah humbug...they probably check your system to find out if you are using linux, and reject those without the geek credentials...
Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat's just it, though. The announcement of the newest shiny, T5, was greeted with deafening apathy. Not everyone was in on the playtest/moot, so this should be exciting news, pro or con, for *somebody*. But no.
Well T5 was in playtest/discussion (on and off the moot) for at least a year prior to the recent announcement, hence the general apathy in my view..and my own general apathy re T5.
Quote from: KoltarBINGO!!!
I browsed at CotI for awhile - they always seem to argue about stuff and never mentioned if they actually played any more.
Most of them seem like they qualify for what Kyle Aaron might call BNG status.
- Ed C.
The majority of the active posters play. At least from reference to things used in their games, examples of houserules used in their games, reference to regular game sessions, weekly, etc. Traveller is definitviely still played just not in the sheer numbers as D&D. I know of at least one group in the Boston area I had to pass on because I just do not have enough time for more than one RPG get together at the moment.
I'll end my apologetics for the CotI board. ;)
Quote from: jeff37923Some of us crusty old fucks would just rather play than talk about playing.
So after seven years of furious edition angst a good portion of dragonsfoot.org just decided to up and say "well it's been great bashing d20 Fantasy and TETSNBN, discussing how much better a mightily thewed Frazetta painting is better than Lidda and Hennet, and discussing the merits of Morgan vs. Aleena, but I guess we really should do some gaming now"?
I think its just the usual attrition of small webboards, particularly with small niche within niche topics like early RPG edtions.
There was a moment of crossover, when in the wake of increasing 3.x crunchification Old seemed capable of becoming/inspiring the new New. Actual newcomers were checking out those older games.
But that moment seems to have passed, perhaps partly because what hasn't happened is the design of new/old games that could capture the attention of both noobs and grognards. Instead, all we got was OSRIC, CT reprints and a couple modules.
Given that, Pundy's FtA is a pretty remarkable achievement.
Quote from: XantherI'll end my apologetics for the CotI board. ;)
But those of us who still frequent CotI thank you for the effort, citizen. :D
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI seem to have noticed that in recent months boards like Dragonsfoot (D&D), Citizens of the Imperium (Traveller) and a number of smaller ones have been approaching near-undead status. People are still posting contributions, but they're getting sparse, short, repetitive, and hyper-specialized.
At some point shortly after 2000, grognardism was blooming, but it seems to be losing its oomph.
Yes, no?
No, I don't agree at all. There were no significant old school communities around 2000-2002; Dragonsfoot was a small, insular community where you could engage in edition wars or quibble over the minutiae of
old stuff, like "what is your favourite TSR module, Thread #270". Necromancer Games was taking advantage of the early d20 upswing, but that's an extreme case; right place at the right time. Old school was, for all intents and purposes, reflecting on an older era.
In comparison, discussion in the last three years or so has been very productive, identifying and dissecting many of the desirable qualities people associate with old school, and more or less destroying the myth of "nostalgia" and "rose coloured glasses". It is no longer possible to casually dismiss prior editions and associated products as unfun without this view being challenged. The discussions have produced a lot of fun campaigns: on DF and other sites where old school people can be found, I am seeing a lot of reports on this, and it is more and more "look at the thing I just made" instead of "we replayed G1-3 over the weekend for the fourth time, and boy, it was a lot of fun".
There is, of course, a cycle to online discussions which sometimes results in more creative energy, and sometimes less. DF is somewhat less interesting than it was in mid 2006 when some classic threads were in full swing; K&K Alehouse is indeed moribund (demonstrating the finiteness of by-the-bookism), and perhaps most unfortunately of them all, OSRIC seems to have failed, not due to legal issues but lack of interest. I propose that the
hobby side is faring rather well, and people are putting a lot of the talk into practice. (Personally, precisely one year ago, I was thinking of hanging up the dice bag - but that was personal matters.)
I am curious, where did you see "booming grognardism" "shortly after" 2000?
(No idea how this all applies to Traveller, I am not active in that community.)
Quote from: James J SkachOr, in a strange twist, they are off playing now that they have just enough to keep networked.
I envy...
Yeah. Contradicting Pierce, I propose that online community-building has been successful in dispelling a lot of the insularity plaguing old school gaming groups, and allowed them to recruit, reorganise or form anew. C&C or any of the successful other old school projects could never have happened without a critical mass of like-minded people. Of course, I don't believe the resulting community is
particularly large by mainstream D&D standards, just that it is large enough to maintain itself.
Quote from: Melan...and perhaps most unfortunately of them all, OSRIC seems to have failed, not due to legal issues but lack of interest.
This is interesting to me as I just used the pdf again the other evening (to compare the BAB to the To Hit tables). So I'm curious as to why you believe this to be true, what gives you the sense, etc.
And to be clear, I'm not disputing, I'm not plugged in so I was curious...
I think a lot of the activity on old-school D&D boards a few years ago was older gamers coming online at the same time, often because they rediscovered the game with 3E and found it wanting in some ways. But the activity on the DF and Necromancer Games boards has certainly tailed off dramatically in the last year or two. Maybe there's a finite amount of discussion most people can get out of reminiscing about OOP games, or talking about your favourite adventures back in the day.
And I have my doubts that old-school gamers are playing more. Look at the threads on the NG about adventures like Caverns of Thracia and the Lost City of Barakus. Tumbleweeds blow by. Even new old-school adventures like Goodman Games' DCCs generate very little discussion. For all their emphasis in stripped-down utility, I wonder how many of those modules are ever played.
Say what you will about modern adventure design, with the adventure paths and the Red Hand of Doom, the folks at WotC and Paizo have done an outstanding job of presenting shared experiences that generate a tremendous amount of buzz and fan-submitted material. Look at the vast amount of material about the Shackled City adventure path people have contributed to the Paizo site.
The 3.x community isn't only much larger than the old-school community, but it's far more cohesive. There seems to be a compulsion among old-schoolers to break away into ever-smaller and specific niches. So you have a board (Dragonsfoot) where you can talk about older editions but not old-school play using new editions, and even that board is broken into sub-niches like Classic D&D and 1E AD&D; and you've got a couple boards (Necro, Goodman) where you can talk about old-school play using the new-edition material published by one company; and another (Troll Lords) where you talk only about a revamped older edition; and another where you can only talk about by-the-book OD&D (Knights & Knaves Alehouse). You have OSRIC, and BFRPG, and Labyrinth Lord, and on and on.
Eventually you have a dozen tiny communities that have all become too specific and small to regenerate themselves. One wonders how much longer publishers like Necro, Goodman, and Troll Lords can survive on the micro-markets they rely on. The old-school D&D community may be too fragmented and moribund to survive the relentess attrition of time.
I agree with Melan. There has been no 'collapse' of old school gaming communities.
While dragonsfoot might temporarily be in a lull (although I haven't noticed it myself, but then I've been pretty busy with other things in recent months), there have been many good conversations there in recent years, and the site hardly looks like it's about to collapse. New reviews continue to be posted, etc. It certainly seems to have far more posters than this place.
Quote from: Haffrung...[Various strange claims] ... The old-school D&D community may be too fragmented and moribund to survive the relentess attrition of time.
:confused:
Um, what?
Castles & Crusades (and thus TLG) is in fact doing
very well. It's one of the best selling 'third party' RPGs around. So the 'old school' market for that game, at least, does not seem to be 'moribund'.
I'm not sure what happened with OSRIC and similar efforts like LL. I haven't been following the OSRIC 'movement' closely, so I wasn't even aware that it 'failed'. I'd be curious if anyone has more information on that.
Quote from: HaffrungSay what you will about modern adventure design, with the adventure paths and the Red Hand of Doom, the folks at WotC and Paizo have done an outstanding job of presenting shared experiences that generate a tremendous amount of buzz and fan-submitted material. Look at the vast amount of material about the Shackled City adventure path people have contributed to the Paizo site.
Well, well. I´m pretty positive that the APs are definitely collected and cherished and more often than played, especially compared to, say the G Series.
Our group finished two APs and is falfway through the third. This is seldom in this universe. There´s not many people who pulled that off.
And even the number of people who actually finished one of the APs is small.
Melan, I take you to say that DF was good fun circa 2003 through 2006, and I totally agree with that. But for a long while now it's been an utter bore.
To return to my actual point, which is not to slag off old-school boards: The crossover between old-sch and new-sch was temporary and perhaps in retrospect superficial, for which the most resounding proof is the lack of NEW GAMES that have emerged from those quarters. C&C is not a new game.
The RPG bandwagon has moved along. It made a loop through old-schoolville, only to head off to Encount4rdor.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI seem to have noticed that in recent months boards like Dragonsfoot (D&D), Citizens of the Imperium (Traveller) and a number of smaller ones have been approaching near-undead status. People are still posting contributions, but they're getting sparse, short, repetitive, and hyper-specialized.
At some point shortly after 2000, grognardism was blooming, but it seems to be losing its oomph.
Yes, no?
Just wait it out a few months until the 3.5'ers become old school grognards. Then the boards will be jumping again.
:)
Pete
Quote from: SettembriniThe RPG bandwagon has moved along. It made a loop through old-schoolville, only to head off to Encount4rdor.
Quite so.
Question is: When to get off, and where. Surely not in 3.xville (Pop. 1000).
Emancipation is the key.
Creative control via homebrew and vanity-published House Systems the six copies of which you printed circle around the table you are the GM of.
Go to theRPGSite and talk about it an abstract way. Snipe at current gamers, bitch about Lulu.
I myself will invest efforts into the German Traveller relaunch, so I might keep my finger on the local pulse for a while.
The final place to be will be Normal, Illinois at the GDW-do-kan ("Way of the Workshop: The good stuff in 90ies gaming") for me. It´s just a day trip to the Star Wars Theme park in Greater West End from there.
Quote from: SettembriniI myself will invest efforts into the German Traveller relaunch,
For real??? As in, actual books getting translated & published???
T5?????
I fear it´ll be the Mongoose version.
http://13mann.de/?cat=5
Oh, those guys. Funny they should still have $$$ left after the Rolemaster relaunch. Maybe it's some kind of tax write-off scheme.
Actually, I´ve been told, they "don´t have to worry about profits."
I suspect a large vanity thing fueled by a tax scheme.
But alas, the more I learn about RPGs and their making, the more I see the influence of external, uncontrollable factors.
Especially with everything not D&D.
But even in D&D.
Historical accident and ouside influence trump any sane, rational or continuous development of the overall product portfolio.
Thusly: Seize the Edition! Be thankful for everything printed, and mourn the stuff that never was.
1. True, true.
2. Who ARE these guys? They're planning to publish like ten (10) RM books in 2008. Plus MongTrav on top of that??? "Nahezu zeitgleich" with the English edition??? So they're translating the playtest docs as we speak. -> Disaster area.
Somebody should do a German T5. The license would be dead cheap. The translation of a 1000-page PDF, not so much.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityOh, those guys. Funny they should still have $$$ left after the Rolemaster relaunch. Maybe it's some kind of tax write-off scheme.
I assume that you mean 'Runequest' and not 'Rolemaster'. Rolemaster is published by ICE. (Rolemaster 2e
has been 'relaunched' recently as 'Rolemaster Classic', just not by Mongoose.)
Quote from: AkrasiaI assume that you mean 'Runequest' and not 'Rolemaster'. Rolemaster is published by ICE. (Rolemaster 2e has been 'relaunched' recently as 'Rolemaster Classic', just not by Mongoose.)
I'm talking about the new German edition of Rolemaster, licensed from ICE.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI'm talking about the new German edition of Rolemaster, licensed from ICE.
Ah, I see. That's what I get for not looking at the relevant link...
:deflated:
Combination of factors IMO. Not just some staleness. Holidays, people now playing with all the goodies that either mimic, reprint or supplement their game(s) of choice, and problems with the forums themselves.
Dragonsfoot - has recently had changes in its production staff and IIRC are looking for a new editor. Some of the AD&D discussion has moved to places like K&K, some of the OD&D discussion to the new OD&D forum. Snipping at $E got old real fast.
K&K Alehouse - next release of OSRIC has stalled for, half a year+ now? Pouring over RPG books like holy texts is of little interest to me aside from a resource. Good threads are enshrined with no need to cover the same topic again.
COTI - QLI is undead due to the real life of the head (only) person and resurfaces every year or so to all but vanish for 6+ months. Forums got nuked, then they got moved and now can't be viewed without a login. I can't be bothered and am not currently playing Traveller.
COTI started to support Traveller d20, which cherry picks from all previous Traveller versions through a d20 filter. If things had turned out differently, TNE: 1248 would've come out through QLI. The CT reprints and PDFs are a Far Future thing and the reprints predate COTI.
Traveller is in a holding pattern right now, the Mongoose announcement took a lot of people by surprise (and the one it didn't, QLI, was in no way to act on it IMO). Until the terms of Mongoose license are revealed every existing Traveller line aside from GT is on life support with the light at the end of the tunnel fast approaching at a scheduled time.
Quote from: HaffrungI think a lot of the activity on old-school D&D boards a few years ago was older gamers coming online at the same time, often because they rediscovered the game with 3E and found it wanting in some ways.
(snip)
The old-school D&D community may be too fragmented and moribund to survive the relentess attrition of time.
One thing I still enjoy about those sites is the joy people have on playing again, talking about their old and current campaigns, (re)reading the old material and even wanting to writeup some new stuff.
The quibbling over One True D&D, how WotC rap3d their childhood and what is the real Greyhawk etc. bore me to tears. Play and have fun I say.
Casey, I agree, and that's why I was pretty shocked by the near-zero response to T5.* Also, I hadn't visited CotI in the past few months, and since then "attendance" has dropped massively. I don't think that can be tied to Hunter's absence ultimately. It's not like discussions ever revolved centrally around him or T20.
*Admittedly, it could have been worse: the TML has yet to realize/acknowledge the announcement.
Quote from: HaffrungAnd I have my doubts that old-school gamers are playing more. Look at the threads on the NG about adventures like Caverns of Thracia and the Lost City of Barakus. Tumbleweeds blow by. Even new old-school adventures like Goodman Games' DCCs generate very little discussion. For all their emphasis in stripped-down utility, I wonder how many of those modules are ever played.
Say what you will about modern adventure design, with the adventure paths and the Red Hand of Doom, the folks at WotC and Paizo have done an outstanding job of presenting shared experiences that generate a tremendous amount of buzz and fan-submitted material. Look at the vast amount of material about the Shackled City adventure path people have contributed to the Paizo site.
Well, basically, after Paizo took over Dungeon Magazine
and 3.5 happened, they collectively killed the d20 companies and took their stuff. It was a magical formula, and part of it that the new adventures were actually decent and sorta iconic. And now? Looks like Wizards is sweeping up the remains - Paizo is going to suffer from the loss of its magazines and not getting the new SRD in time... whether from negligence or intentional negligence, we cannot say.
After 3.5, d20 sales collapsed, and those Necromancer adventures sold a fraction of their previous amount; hence the less discussion. I also believe that they kinda lost thier way with some of the later modules, but that's an issue we have explored to death on NG's forums.
QuoteThe 3.x community isn't only much larger than the old-school community, but it's far more cohesive. There seems to be a compulsion among old-schoolers to break away into ever-smaller and specific niches.
This same direction exists on regular 3.X boards; what you are looking at is the Official Dungeons&Dragons community, the people who only buy Official Approved Material.
In this context, I don't see the situation so darkly.
Pierce, you're the only one it seems who is making the claim that CotI is on its last legs. Its still around and probably will be for years. There's also a lot of erronious information about CotI floating around, like you have to subscribe to the forum to read the threads (yes, there are some that you do have to subscribe to read, but those are playtest threads or non-Traveller threads like those in the Political Pulpit).
Go check it out:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/index.php
For an "Old Skool" forum that is "dying" it seems pretty lively to me.
Quote from: flyingmiceI only have trouble when the dice fall on the floor - I can't bend down from my walker far enough to get them. Dang things just sit there, tantalizingly out of reach.
I'm thinking of switching to diceless...
-clash
I've become quite adept at picking up dice with my feet. Though, eventually I won't have the flexibility to cross my legs and pry the dice from my toes... :haw:
Speaking of boards dying; Do you fine people think that some of you could start some more threads here??
I think that activity is lower than I've seen it in a long time; I understand its December and all, but still.
PLEASE, if you have something, anything, you want to talk about in RPGs, post a thread here!
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditSpeaking of boards dying; Do you fine people think that some of you could start some more threads here??
I think that activity is lower than I've seen it in a long time; I understand its December and all, but still.
PLEASE, if you have something, anything, you want to talk about in RPGs, post a thread here!
RPGPundit
If you insist...
Quote from: RPGPunditSpeaking of boards dying; Do you fine people think that some of you could start some more threads here??
I think that activity is lower than I've seen it in a long time; I understand its December and all, but still.
PLEASE, if you have something, anything, you want to talk about in RPGs, post a thread here!
You don't like what I choose to talk about.
Quote from: droogYou don't like what I choose to talk about.
Hey, as long as its about RPGs and not Theory, it doesn't matter whether I personally like it or not; I might not post but others will. Go, diversity!
RPGPundit
Pfft. As long as as you're going to decide, arbitrarily and unilaterally, when something's slipped over some line, it's not worth my while.
oh, go on droog !
Whatever...droog will just steal someone else's thread an claim its his.
- Ed C.
(Hey - I"ve been starting threads here pretty often...)
Quote from: RPGPunditGo, diversity!
Can we have a little symbol or icon for that?
You know, to make bumper stickers, or avatars...