I got a proposal about turning a comic book I write for in an RPG setting. The dudes proposed "True d20" as the base system. I know that there is an Italian edition of the game, but also that it is not going very well.
How is the game system beside the sales? I guess I can just buy a copy and check for myself, but an overall impression would be nice. During the pitch, alas, references to "story games" were made, making my hair slowly turn white, but maybe I didn't heard it right.
Comments?
Quote from: Reckall;522334I got a proposal about turning a comic book I write for in an RPG setting. The dudes proposed "True d20" as the base system. I know that there is an Italian edition of the game, but also that it is not going very well.
How is the game system beside the sales? I guess I can just buy a copy and check for myself, but an overall impression would be nice. During the pitch, alas, references to "story games" were made, making my hair slowly turn white, but maybe I didn't heard it right.
Comments?
Do you mean True 20?
If so, it's definitely a roleplaying game (I've played the Blue Rose version of it, which came before the tidied-up True20 version of the rules, and even that was a few years ago so my details may be incorrect). It's got three basic classes (Fighty, skills-y and cast-y, I can't remember their names) which are very flexible through the use of feats. I don't remember assigning skill points individually, instead you get skill picks giving a constant bonus. You have the six attributes, but only the bonuses, not the numbers.
Skills checks work in the usual d20 + modifiers way, combat uses a damage save like Mutants and Masterminds, and there's a vague morality mechanic.
I thought it was so bland, it's average. It's playable, sure, and you can run a campaign in it, but there's nothing really interesting or innovative in the mechanics. It's just another game system.
True20 is good. It is bland, like any generic system will be, and it has no story game elements that I can see. The only one even close is it's "corruption" mechanic, but this is actually meant to serve more like Sanity in CoC than anything else. It represented the corruptive influence of using sorcery in Blue Rose.
As Ladybird pointed out, The characters abilities are the same is any d20 game, but only use the ability modifiers, not the 3-18 numbers. So True20 is +3 instead of 17. I can't remember the names of the classes either, but they are meant to represent only the general aptitudes of the character, and any "class abilities" are feats in True20 and the characters are much more customizable. It is still a class/level system though. The advancement is also much more open and interpretable by the GM, with characters advancing in level when or at a frequency the individual GM or group decides they should. It's not a bad system at all, if class/level is ok with you.
"Bland" is the first word that comes to mind.
I agree on the "bland" part. The other thing that stands out is the damage mechanism. Instead of hit points, it uses a damage save and a track of damage conditions. I can't say that it was any better than hit points, just different.
It's not a bad system, but there's nothing that makes me want to play it, either.
My main issue with it in play was the wound system. Wounds were complicated. Further, they had a high variability from the d20 roll - a blow could generally do anything from a scratch (if you rolled a 18) to a fatality (if you rolled a 2). They were also part of a medium-strong death spiral.
The result was that the best (by far) use of Conviction Points was to re-roll any low Toughness rolls to soak damage.
The rest of it worked OK in play - but as others said, it was fairly bland.
The three classes in particular were deliberately very bland. I personally think they should have ditched classes and instead had non-bland skill/power/trait options.
True 20 is a good generic system. I guess bland is correct by its very nature. Its a streamlined down and somewhat slimmed down version of d20.
It has a lot in common with Savage Worlds but I prefer True 20 as it feels more robust and allows for greater granularity.
I forgot about Conviction... yeah, when I ran my Dark Sun test with True20 Conviction came in very handy for the players. I'd advise being fairly generous with it, especially at first until you find the sweet spot for your group. Better that than creating new characters several times. The grittiness relative to more "normal" d20 was one of the things that attracted me to True20. It's a pretty decent and versatile "gritty" d20 variant. I thought it would be great for modern games and still do although it's no longer my first choice.
Edit: What genre is the comic you write for Reck? If it's Supers, I'm not sure true20 would be a good fit. Horror, I think true20 would totally fit. Fantasy, you might be better off taking a look at Blue Rose and just ignore the fluff, especially if it's darker fantasy, for which Blue Rose is very well suited. As I said, IMO True20 is just fine for modern/military/sci-fi type gaming.
Here is my succinct review: I loathe 3e, but I liked True20 and I would play it again.
As generic systems go, my favorite was the ill-fated BESM 3e with Savage Worlds being my 2nd choice because its so fast and fun with minis. I would say True20 would probably be next choice.
I've played loads of Hero and GURPS and True20 was certainly more enjoyable than either of them.
The damage mechanic is kinda cool. Feels very cinematic in play.
I'm rather fond of it--but yes its bland, like Unisystem bland. Meaning it allows the flavor to all come from the setting not the rules. Sometimes that is a good thing (when adapting a setting and not writing game rules intended to re-enforce it.)
I wouldn't use it for things I wanted the rules to help drive the setting home well, but as a "hey look, simple, usable" rules set, it works well.
The revised edition with the settings pulled out and the companion folded in includes rules for gear design, class design (for doing more traditional fantasy/SF whatever classes) so I'd recommend it.
Interesting as it does a lot of things i have put into my heartbreaker.
Bonuses rather than stats, 3 classes based on Skills, Magic or combat. Now I sub-class archetypes but the aim is to have the GM build them for their setting (although a bunch are provided)
Might take a look to make sure i haven't reinvented a wheel no one is all that fond of :)
True20's best "innovation" IMO is the fact that attack and defence are now symmetrical. This is rare for a D20 derived RPG.
This allowed escalating HP to go and be replaced by Conviction to represent rising heroism and armour adding to Toughness. The result is cinematic, much like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings movies.
It is a simpler user friendly of version of d20 that doesn't use hit points.
The crunchiest aspect to the system are feats, much like any d20 OGL game.
It does have a very bland presentation, which may partially explain it not being a huge commercial success. The light support and the massive glut of d20 offerings also being reasons True20 didn't fare better.
There is also Mutants and Masterminds, which seems to be able to do everything that True20 can do and then some.
Quote from: PaladinCA;522463There is also Mutants and Masterminds, which seems to be able to do everything that True20 can do and then some.
At a higher effort to result ratio though in many cases IME.
Quote from: Skywalker;522467At a higher effort to result ratio though in many cases IME.
This is true.
Edit: M&M certainly has more crunch and complexity than True20 even if built on a similar foundation.
Quote from: Sigmund;522342True20 is good. It is bland, like any generic system will be, and it has no story game elements that I can see. The only one even close is it's "corruption" mechanic, but this is actually meant to serve more like Sanity in CoC than anything else. It represented the corruptive influence of using sorcery in Blue Rose.
Well, there is quite a bit in the Caliphate Nights bit of the book, where they let players spend conviction to temporarily take over the GM role and tell stories within the story, or define the setting as long as it doesn't contradict any already established facts. But again, that's genre emulation, not core.
Quote from: Skywalker;522462True20's best "innovation" IMO is the fact that attack and defence are now symmetrical. This is rare for a D20 derived RPG.
This allowed escalating HP to go and be replaced by Conviction to represent rising heroism and armour adding to Toughness. The result is cinematic, much like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings movies.
That and the fact that everything is feat based massively reduces the linear warrior, quadratic wizard problem. Everyone has pretty much the same number of tricks up their sleeve at a particular level, it's just a question of what kind.
Quote from: (un)reason;522472Well, there is quite a bit in the Caliphate Nights bit of the book, where they let players spend conviction to temporarily take over the GM role and tell stories within the story, or define the setting as long as it doesn't contradict any already established facts. But again, that's genre emulation, not core.
You are right, but as you also say, it's genre emulation. Also, however, the story mechanics in Caliphate Nights are not story game mechanics, they are actual story telling mechanics. Caliphate Nights has a sub system that allows the
character to briefly "take control" through the act of telling a story. It's actually a kinda brilliant system and idea, if not quite my personal cup of tea. You are correct that it is more "story-gamey" than most any other d20 based mechanics. I hadn't been thinking of that because it is setting specific.
Simple and nice, with some nice optional extra systems like Conviction and Corruption etc.. I like it a lot.
BUT it's not a hot system right now, I think the wind has gone out of it's sails, it's no longer a hot system.
Quote from: tzunder;522559Simple and nice, with some nice optional extra systems like Conviction and Corruption etc.. I like it a lot.
BUT it's not a hot system right now, I think the wind has gone out of it's sails, it's no longer a hot system.
I remember reading the core book, which was interesting, and the martial arts book, which I vaguely recall as very, very good (and one of the rare few books that's tempted me to move away from Ninjas & Superspies as my go-to "cheesy martial arts flick" RPG).
I don't remember it being populaer, though, not even when it was in print. I think True20 suffered from being a generic system that never had its "killer app", like BRP (CoC), or D6 (Star Wars), or Savage Worlds (Deadlands Reloaded), or Cortex (licenses for every other thing that's ever been on TV, and now Marvel). Actually, come to think of it, I suppose
Blue Rose was supposed to be its killer app, but... well... we all know how well that went.
I'm willing to wager that, if Green Ronin released the core rules as a free download, tacked an OGL on it and lowered the supplement prices, it might even experience a small renaissance (a la D6).
As with all generic systems, True20 tries to do too much. As with the d20 system, the math is bad. It's just not interesting enough for me to care about it.
Quote from: The Butcher;522590...
I'm willing to wager that, if Green Ronin released the core rules as a free download, tacked an OGL on it and lowered the supplement prices, it might even experience a small renaissance (a la D6).
True20 is OGL. Also, the True20 compatibility license is free, and does not require approval by Green Ronin. Any publisher could create stuff for True20 right now, with the True20 logo on the front, if they comply with the compatibility license.
Quote from: The Butcher;522590Actually, come to think of it, I suppose Blue Rose was supposed to be its killer app, but... well... we all know how well that went.
Not really. Blue Rose came out first and True20 was a result of its success. During the years that Blue Rose was released, it was GR's second best selling RPG line (behind WFRP2e one year and M&M the other IIRC) and GR have said that they considered BR to have done well commercially.
The reason for True20's demise, as a subsequent release, is more to do with the fact that GR decided not to support it beyond the core rules. As such, it took a gamble on 3PP support and it didn't pay off, especially as it coincided with the downturn of D20.
Quote from: trechriron;522614True20 is OGL. Also, the True20 compatibility license is free, and does not require approval by Green Ronin. Any publisher could create stuff for True20 right now, with the True20 logo on the front, if they comply with the compatibility license.
Right. The main limitation of the True20 logo license is that it does not allow a standalone RPG - only supplements to their True20 book.
I have posted two SRDs of the True20 material. This was a point of contention with Green Ronin - the end result of which was that I voluntarily held off making available the first Romantic Fantasy True SRD for two years, then I held off making available the Generic True SRD for several more years. They are both available now on my SRD website, though:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/srd/
Quote from: jhkim;522625Right. The main limitation of the True20 logo license is that it does not allow a standalone RPG - only supplements to their True20 book.
Well of course, if you allow that sort of thing you get people generating an entire system out of your core rule mechanics and cutting you out of the process (And cash!), when what you
really want is people producing supplements for your game that your company wouldn't find economically viable.
Quote from: Ladybird;522636Well of course, if you allow that sort of thing you get people generating an entire system out of your core rule mechanics and cutting you out of the process (And cash!), when what you really want is people producing supplements for your game that your company wouldn't find economically viable.
I don't presume to speak for what any particular game companies want.
However, I do note that there are quite a few RPG companies that have released free and/or open-license versions of their games. Many of these seem to have done quite well. D&D 3.0 is the most prominent example of this, but it seems like the producers of FATE are also doing fairly well.
Quote from: jhkim;522693I don't presume to speak for what any particular game companies want.
However, I do note that there are quite a few RPG companies that have released free and/or open-license versions of their games. Many of these seem to have done quite well. D&D 3.0 is the most prominent example of this, but it seems like the producers of FATE are also doing fairly well.
D6 is experiencing a little Renaissance.
Precis Intermedia has released Masterbook OSL (open supplement license) to make stuff for Masterbook system.
BRP is also experiencing a Renaissance, and it has open versions like OpenQuest (based off the original Mongoose RQ1). Also, it seems Chaosium is pretty open to submissions, there have been a pile of new releases announced.
Quote from: trechriron;522614True20 is OGL. Also, the True20 compatibility license is free, and does not require approval by Green Ronin. Any publisher could create stuff for True20 right now, with the True20 logo on the front, if they comply with the compatibility license.
Quote from: Skywalker;522624Not really. Blue Rose came out first and True20 was a result of its success. During the years that Blue Rose was released, it was GR's second best selling RPG line (behind WFRP2e one year and M&M the other IIRC) and GR have said that they considered BR to have done well commercially.
The reason for True20's demise, as a subsequent release, is more to do with the fact that GR decided not to support it beyond the core rules. As such, it took a gamble on 3PP support and it didn't pay off, especially as it coincided with the downturn of D20.
I stand corrected on both counts.
Yeah, when I think of "True20" the first word that comes to mind isn't so much "bland" as "dead". If its not being supported anymore, it might not be a good idea to release a book using it as the base rules.
RPGPundit
First, thank to all for your input :)
The comic book is not mine: I'm among the contributors, and I was named "GdR expert" about this question :cool:. It is a "dirty and realistic" approach to fantasy, a little bit like "Game of Thrones" but with magic and monsters (and gothic atmospheres).
Anyway, the publishing house who publishes the Italian edition of "Pathfinder" now approached us, too, so I guess the problem is now moot. And True20 didn't rang a bell with me in the first place - but it was wort getting some more info.
Thanks to all again!
Quote from: Reckall;522778First, thank to all for your input :)
The comic book is not mine: I'm among the contributors, and I was named "GdR expert" about this question :cool:. It is a "dirty and realistic" approach to fantasy, a little bit like "Game of Thrones" but with magic and monsters (and gothic atmospheres).
Do you have a link to that comic? I'd love to have a look.
QuoteAnyway, the publishing house who publishes the Italian edition of "Pathfinder" now approached us, too, so I guess the problem is now moot. And True20 didn't rang a bell with me in the first place - but it was wort getting some more info.
I didn't know Pathfinder had been translated into Italian. Cool.
Quote from: Claudius;522789Do you have a link to that comic? I'd love to have a look.
It was initially published as a stand alone graphic novel. It was successful, so it is now being turned into a series. I was asked to write some scripts.
Here is the webpage of the studio doing it, with some previews:
http://vocstudio.blogspot.it/2012/03/dragonero.html
While here you can see assorted drawings (check only the art of course :)):
http://tinyurl.com/84ewoow