Found this gem on reddit:
The GM of the Pathfinder group I'm playing in wanted a break from GM'ing and asked me to stand in for him as a GM for a few weeks, maybe even a few months. I wanted to run Shadowrun (my favorite setting), but one of the players said he hates SR. No SR then. sigh So I decided to get D&D 5th (which I was pretty excited about) and to promote the system to the rest of the group, hoping that we could switch to it when my tenure as a GM is over. Well, so much for the background.
I dusted off my old gaming world, gave it a little touch up and then converted the starter box adventure "The Lost Mines of Phandelver" to my world. Phandalin now lies near the city of Grayfir in the Gloomwood, which is situated in Ymir Valley (instead of lying near Neverwinter in Neverwinter Wood at the Sword Coast). The players got a information about the world and I pointed them towards the Basic Rules download and luckily we were able to get the Player's Handbook early so that we could use that before the mini-campaign started.
Yesterday, we had the first real session (last week was finishing characters and a small introductionary scenario). And two players were sitting there, bashing the system relentlessly.
One hold a fucking speech about how bad the system is because you can't get your bonusses sky-high. So one roll could ruin a whole character concept and what were they thinking and they are ruining it for everyone and that all sucks the big one. Everyone on the table was puzzled. I asked the question "How can one roll ruin a character concept?" - "Well..." he said "if you wanna be good at something and you build your character towards that goal you can still fail because of a bad roll." - "But... how is that any different from Pathfinder? It can happen there too!" - He shook his head: "Not with MY characters!" He wanted to be awesome and the best in whatever he strived for and couldn't accept that D&D 5E wouldn't allow him to find a vastly and absurd powerful character concept and bash my adventure over the head with it. Great!
The second player that pisses me off to no end is the guy who is a power creep and a fucking smartass while being the youngest in the group. When someone points out things like "The Eldritch Knight is pretty cool in D&D 5E, he gets especially great at 7th level when he can hit someone with his weapon as a bonus action when he casts a spell!" or "How they handle Feats at D&D 5E is pretty cool!" he would answer along the lines of "Why would anyone do/take that? It sucks, better do {insert some power gamer shit move here}!" And half of the time he doesn't even understand the rules or uses rules in the wrong way (don't know if on purpose or because he can't distinguish between how he thinks it should work in his opinion and how things are written down in the rules). And the way he says this things comes off as if he thinks we all are idiots. I never belittled him, never told him he was an idiot or attacked him in anyway - no one of the group did. He was this way the second he sat down on our table. Don't know what's up with that.
Fuck, I'm getting old, since I don't understand the kids these days anymore (I'm just 35 for fucks sake!).
It is pretty interesting when the dude who plays a Halfling version of Casanunder from the Discworld novels and is stealing spotlight from the other players left and right isn't bugging me but the two people with halfway decent character concepts get me angry about every 15 minutes at least. And why does the player with the Casanunder copy isn't annoying me? Because he plays by the creed "Do what your character would do." He build a character that fitted his vision of his concept and then fucked on rules. His character did what his character did and THEN he asked what rules applied and even if it was something very disadvantegeous to him, he rolled with it and tried to get out on top. Every session he almost gets his character killed by his shenanigans at least once, but it is hilarious, in character and the player has the kind of fun I hope to provide to the group. The last two players of the group have fun, too. While the other two have a hard time having fun because the system doesn't allow them to be super awesome. sigh
I don't know the attitudes of this two bozos just drives me fucking NUTS.
TL;DR: One player of my D&D 5E group is bitching and whining because the system doesn't allow him to be super duper ultra megazord awesome, while another player disses the other players and me because we don't powergame enough. AND IT DRIVES ME FUCKING NUTS!
Maybe I bring a chunk of cheese and a ball gag to the table next week. Geez, these two REALLY piss me off.
Thanks for... "listening" guys n gals.
Quote from: Bill;782829Maybe I bring a chunk of cheese and a ball gag to the table next week.
Words to live by, there.
I don't understand how this kind of thing ends up a problem? Put on your big boy britches and ask them to shut up, if they don't show them the door. It's not fucking rocket science.
Truly!
For these players and their complaints it is easily handled by taking a page out of the book of old Curly Bill.
" Well...........bye."
I don't envy you as their DM. Though it is as simple as saying "We're running 5E right now. If you don't like it, by all means you can leave and come back when the other DM shows up. Until then, kindly refrain from being a douché or I'll show you the door."
Quote from: Batman;782856I don't envy you as their DM. Though it is as simple as saying "We're running 5E right now. If you don't like it, by all means you can leave and come back when the other DM shows up. Until then, kindly refrain from being a douché or I'll show you the door."
Fortunately, that article was something I found on Reddit, and not a group I play with.
Thankfully.
the power gamer guy is easy to sort out since as explained he doesnt know the rules and seems to think the ones he does know work different to how the book says they do, so next time he gets all uppity stop the game hand him the rulebooks and say "congrats dumbass your now running a game heres the rulebooks get reading coz next game we expect you to have it memorised and not in your usual half assed power gamey way either!" i suspect he'll shut up afterwards.
the other guy is just a prat who got caught up in charopping and hasnt realised the game is more fun when you dont twink everything to be uber awesome.
Quote from: Arkansan;782843I don't understand how this kind of thing ends up a problem? Put on your big boy britches and ask them to shut up, if they don't show them the door. It's not fucking rocket science.
Give the benefit of the doubt, and there are lots of reasons it might be a problem. "Kick the bums out" isn't easy if they're friends, or friends of friends, or part of a pre-existing group that the GM joined a while back, or.. a lot of reasons, really.
Having a frank discussion about how how the players are being dicks isn't easy either, 'cuz if they're dicks they're of course going to try to turn it into a thing.
Quote from: Bill;782829He wanted to be awesome and the best in whatever he strived for and couldn't accept that D&D 5E wouldn't allow him to find a vastly and absurd powerful character concept and bash my adventure over the head with it. Great!
I had a guy like that in a PF group I no longer play with. As far as I was able to ascertain, his goal when playing PF was to supermax his build to the point where he never had to roll for anything, ever. At one point a climbing roll came up and somebody at the table pointed out the specific rule had an applicable modifier such that he'd actually have to roll against DC 15 or something. He completely lost his shit and began hurling verbal abuse (including profanity) at the other player.
There's being entitled, and then there's this pathological shit. I don't think "brain damage" is an inappropriate term, irony intended.
For a lot of people, playing an RPG *is* about doing character optimization and that kind of stuff. I'm not defending it, I sure as hell hate it, but it's worth recognizing just because it gives you better tools to deal with it.
If I had a player like that, my response would be "Cool, I get that for you, RPGs are about uber optimization and stuff like that. That's cool, and I'm glad you found something you like. But that's not what my game is about. My game is about . You're welcome to play in my game. It'll probably be different from what you're used to, but maybe you'll find you like it. But it won't turn into a charop fest, and if you agree to play in my game, you agree to do so on my terms."
Quote from: daniel_ream;782888I had a guy like that in a PF group I no longer play with. As far as I was able to ascertain, his goal when playing PF was to supermax his build to the point where he never had to roll for anything, ever. At one point a climbing roll came up and somebody at the table pointed out the specific rule had an applicable modifier such that he'd actually have to roll against DC 15 or something. He completely lost his shit and began hurling verbal abuse (including profanity) at the other player.
There's being entitled, and then there's this pathological shit. I don't think "brain damage" is an inappropriate term, irony intended.
Control issues maybe?
to me - this will always come down to the GM.
I have no problem with min-maxers. Because as the GM I control the context in which the PC's play, what they have access to, what is possible/not possible exclusive to the rules.
If a player says "Well I want to play this race from book ." And I say - "Well that race doesn't exist in this world. So no you can't play that." Is that the GM being a dick? I dunno. Maybe it depends? But let's examine it from what I normally do with min-maxers.
Case in point - I have one in my group right now. He's a new player for me, has a bunch of stats that are EXTREMELY high (I don't think he's got anything under a 16 - I let everyone random 5d6 for each stat, keep the best three.) So everyone gives me the "look" when they realize he's a power-gaming min-maxer. I tell everyone to relax.
He's playing a Priest of War and is squeezing out the highest AC and maximum DPS. Lives in his armor, never takes it off. Never is without his weapons. So I just play through - the PC's are dealing with nobility and such, and this guy is a northman wearing filthy blood-stained armor, hasn't taken a bath in weeks, and I tell him - people look at you like a turban-wearing, shaggy-beareded, dark-skinned man, wearing double-crisscrossed belts of 7.62 ammo and toting a M-60 on his back. And NPC's act accordingly.
He's hassled everywhere he goes by guards (where appropriate). He's forced to stand outside a LOT of buildings where they will not allow armed strangers into their homes, much less brutish ones that show no civility. I make him roll Constitution saves all the time after 4+ hours of standing in the 100+ degree temperatures in plate-armor covered with a huge dire-wolf fur (now going to rot, from all his sweat). So he's occasionally heat-exhausted (Disadvantaged until he re-hydrates and cools down). I have created a lamellar set of armor that has Medium and Heavy versions which allow you comfort in the desert climate - he refuses to wear the heavy variety because he'd have 1 AC less. So be it.
He's out of the loop on lots of in-game communication. Talks about dipping into other classes - but I tell him, there is no class-dipping if you have no one to teach you. There is no Feat accrual without taking time out to train for it - usually by finding others that can train you, or spending some time working on it outside of adventuring. Otherwise you take your extra Stats.
And so the gist of it is - if you engage in the context of the game, feel free to min-max. It won't matter where the meat of the game is. Because it's ALL the game. It's more than just the numbers. He learned that the moment he went into combat heat-exhausted. Was I telling him he couldn't wear Full Plate? Not at all. I'm saying that wearing your Full Plate armor in 100-105-degree heat covered in a fur coat would drop most people in much shorter time than you. That's why I'm letting you roll your Con save every hour +1/Con bonus (in this case 4 hours) OR you could just put on a set of heavy reinforced Lamellar armor designed for use in the desert which would cost you ONE AC point... but now you're fighting with Disadvantage for failing your Con-save and choosing to hold onto that 1 AC. See?
Context works wonders. Does it mean he can't min-max? Not at all. It just means if you're going to go that route, with all the meticulousness that most min-maxers do - they'll have to comport that to the level of detail I'll put into my campaigns that force players to play their PC's as anything BUT murder-hoboing assholes.
I'll take on any 4e rules-worshipper and put their character into context, and they'll have a better time of it. That's what a GM should be doing. But as they say - you can lead a horse to water...
"I have created a lamellar set of armor that has Medium and Heavy versions which allow you comfort in the desert climate - he refuses to wear the heavy variety because he'd have 1 AC less. So be it."
Ha ha ha!
I want this guy as a player in my Dark Sun game :)
Quote from: tenbones;782912I'll take on any 4e rules-worshipper and put their character into context, and they'll have a better time of it.
It seems to me that the end result of power gamers getting what they want is a VERY dull game. A big circle jerk.
I remember reading somewhere about a kid who came to a convention game. He brought a pre-made character who was equipped to the gills with magical gewgaws of the highest order.
So the GM let him have his way for a while... 'You win!'... 'You win again!'... till the kid complained that the game was 'boring'... at which point the GM had him roll up a reasonable character.
Quote from: Simlasa;782938It seems to me that the end result of power gamers getting what they want is a VERY dull game. A big circle jerk.
I remember reading somewhere about a kid who came to a convention game. He brought a pre-made character who was equipped to the gills with magical gewgaws of the highest order.
So the GM let him have his way for a while... 'You win!'... 'You win again!'... till the kid complained that the game was 'boring'... at which point the GM had him roll up a reasonable character.
Having run a bazillion tournaments and games at conventions - I think the GM should have checked off what he could/couldn't bring into the game. Not doing that at a convention game is a big waste of everyone's time.
The key here is power-gamers are under the belief that all the cool numbers will let them WIN at the game. If you run your RPG's like that, you'll have problems. A great campaign has goals, has conflicts, has requirements that are tailored/not tailored to the judgements and actions of the PC's. There is no singular point where someone WINS - unless you're wrapping up the campaign. If you, as the GM, LET a power-gamer use "rules" to dictate to YOU, THE GM, how YOUR campaign operates - then I would say you're a suck-ass GM.
Before anyone gets their panties in a knot - mind you, *all* GM's go through this "powergamer-problem" if you GM long enough. For GM's with more experience, it should be a non-issue. Power-gaming is noob-play as far as problems go. Passive-aggressive drama-queens are worse. As are Static-Lurkers...
If you have *real* problems with power-gamers at your table while you're GMing - the problem is the GM more than the player. Because after all - you could tell them to GTFO at *worst*. Good GM's figure out how to mold those players through the gameplay. If you don't know how to do that - then you're still going to have problems until you do. /shrug dunno what to tell you. There is no power-gamer of epic proportions I can't handle with a simple "no".
It's mini-Project Management. Saying "no", works. Try it. THE FLIPSIDE of that is - you damn well better have your game straight as to WHY.
Well done, Tenbones.
My own approach is similar:
Sleep in your mail, wear it 24-7? Well, quite aside from that it's going to rust pretty damn quickly that way, I'm going to start to push disease and exhaustion rolls.
Want to play a Dark Elf when such beings don't exist in my world? Alright, we can do that, but quite aside from your Unusual Background cost, I hope you have no problem with townsfolk cowering in fear from you, superstitious peasants coming at you with pitchforks, and for you to be blamed for every murder or child-napping in the district for the week before and after your arrival.
And so on.
Quote from: Simlasa;782938So the GM let him have his way for a while... 'You win!'... 'You win again!'... till the kid complained that the game was 'boring'... at which point the GM had him roll up a reasonable character.
Heh. Funny you should mention that.
I was in a startup Champions campaign where the GM wanted my character to be the clear party leader. (Everyone at the gaming club thought I was a tactical genius anyway, but sure, whatever.) So he spotted me 75 extra points, and I designed a freaking combat monster. Did far more of my share of pulverizing the bad guys ... and that was the problem.
Thing was -- and it was readily apparent by the second session -- anything the other heroes could handle, I could obliterate. Anything that gave me a challenge, the other heroes were its bitches. That neither struck me as fair or fun, and the third session I showed up with a new character who was a utility fellow, good at a mess of things, superior at nothing.
Quote from: Ravenswing;782945I was in a startup Champions campaign where the GM wanted my character to be the clear party leader. (Everyone at the gaming club thought I was a tactical genius anyway, but sure, whatever.) So he spotted me 75 extra points, and I designed a freaking combat monster.
Huh.
I know Champions is a single-unit tactical wargame shamming as a superhero RPG, but it seems to me that 75 points would have made more sense in an EC with extra PRE, Area Effect Aid to REC & STUN, Combat Levels Usable by Others, and a Detect (Villain's Plan).
When I think "leader" in a superhero game I think Captain America, not Wolverine.
@Tenbones : I commend your patience with no so easy to deal with players !
Your advice about taking a little time before playing to speak what everybody expects from the game is a good one. I will use it in the future.
Quote from: Ravenswing;782943Well done, Tenbones.
My own approach is similar:
Sleep in your mail, wear it 24-7? Well, quite aside from that it's going to rust pretty damn quickly that way, I'm going to start to push disease and exhaustion rolls.
I actually did this too - I told him wearing your platemail non-stop will not give you rest beyond a certain point. I told him in lieu of his high-con I'll let him go a lot longer (his bonus in days) but after that - he's Disadvantaged until he gets Long rest without it. If he wants to rinse/repeat that cycle - go for it. Feel safe. Wear your armor. Sleep in the stable. Smell like shit. Look like shit. Feel like shit. I'll happily have everyone and everything react to that fact. He even realized one monster was tracking the group with ease due to his rotting fucking fur cloak.
Quote from: Ravenswing;782943Want to play a Dark Elf when such beings don't exist in my world? Alright, we can do that, but quite aside from your Unusual Background cost, I hope you have no problem with townsfolk cowering in fear from you, superstitious peasants coming at you with pitchforks, and for you to be blamed for every murder or child-napping in the district for the week before and after your arrival.
And so on.
I should note so people understand I'm not a dick, this can work to their advantage in some cases. I had a group of players playing Vhaeraun worshipping Drow on the surface (and treated accordingly) - but through a series of bizarre events ended up on an island where they saved this kid who happened to be the son of the Emperor of Wa. They were taken in, and people treated them as Spirit Folk - and they were afforded more respect. Certainly more than anyone from the Faerun would give them without trying to kill them first. They milked it and ran with it. We had a mini-Kara-Tur campaign where the party eventually became royal retainers of the Emperor of Wa, learned the language, one of them even became a ninja, another a Kensai. They became known as "Gokuroki - the Five Black Demons" and when the game went to Spelljammer they were part of the Wa fleet as agents of the Emperor himself. Yeah pretty weird but cool shit. (such great fun with them dealing with the Elven Imperial Navy - and seeing five drow badasses in full japanese regalia boarding their ships to engage in diplomacy... good times!)
So it's not like I'm against having weird shit, and I think a good GM should be open to allowing people who wanna be special snowflakes as long as they own the repercussions of it. And yeah - you gotta be prepared to nip that in the bud when you have players who will only request shit like that. Again - it comes down to being judicious in saying "no" - but be open to saying "yes".
Quote from: Alathon;782884Give the benefit of the doubt, and there are lots of reasons it might be a problem. "Kick the bums out" isn't easy if they're friends, or friends of friends, or part of a pre-existing group that the GM joined a while back, or.. a lot of reasons, really.
Having a frank discussion about how how the players are being dicks isn't easy either, 'cuz if they're dicks they're of course going to try to turn it into a thing.
I guess it's just not an issue for me. I don't mind stepping on toes. Gaming is a hobby for me, something I do solely for enjoyment, I don't want people involved shitting that up. I suppose part of the reason I look at it that way is that overall I am a really lax GM. Have a character concept that is reasonable that the system doesn't really support? No sweat we can work something out. Have an issue with the way I do something? Again if you're reasonable we can work something out. I am a never say no unless it is just ludicrous GM. So for me when people act in a disruptive fashion, or are just unpleasant I have zero patience.
About the only fucking thing I ask at my table is that you not act like an asshat. If you can't follow that simple rule then hit the road. I don't care if they are a friend of a friend or part of a preexisting group or whatever. I would rather not play than deal with shit heads.
I dealt with a situation similar a few months ago. A good friend brought an acquaintance from work to play, dude bitched incessantly about how unrealistic the game was, and argued about what equipment should be available due to assumed tech level. I was polite about shutting him down a time or two. About the third time I pointed out that bitching about realism in an elfgame was basically retarded and pointed out that he was ruining it for everyone else. After the session I called the friend that brought asshole in question and told him not to do so again. Problem solved.
Honestly I don't care to put up with shit from people that aren't either A. My wife B. My Mother or C. Whoever is signing my check.
No Gaming > Bad Gaming
In the words of Master Yoda, "Up the fuck, shut."
Really, there's no need to tolerate this kind of shit. "Kindly stop interrupting the game" is followed five minutes later by "There's the door, don't slam it on the way out."
Quote from: daniel_ream;782952When I think "leader" in a superhero game I think Captain America, not Wolverine.
Mm, permit me to demur -- when we think "leader" in a superhero
comic, we think Captain America, not Wolverine.
I'm sure we'd all agree that the preponderance of RPG players -- especially in start-up campaigns where people don't know one another -- gravitate towards obviously combat-powerful characters in leadership roles. Let's be honest -- do up Cap and Logan as rollups in most any supers campaign, file off the serial numbers, and your average gamer would sneer at the pretentious bastard with the hyperbolic name thinking he ought to be party leader just because he dumped a lot of points into Tactics and Reputation. But the cool guy with METAL CLAWS pulling killing attacks? Damn, he's a stud.
Mmmmm...snowflakes!
Some might enjoy this tale.
At a convention years ago, I ran a 1E dnd one shot adventure where the sign up sheet said "Bring any dnd character you like"
I had guessed most would bring a fairly 'high level' character to such. 12th ish?
So one player brought his 40th+ level fighter, one had a thief of about level 25, and one guy had his beloved level 53 Wizard.
The lowest level character was a Paladin of about level 15. (With a Holy Avenger sword)
The adventure involved the pc's exploring a cave where the local farmers said was a den of evil and their livestock was being poached in the night.
They chose to march into the cave (No planning, no strategy, no investigation)
They blundered into a pack of undead dwarves that were relatively weak compared to the pc's, but had a fireshield effect.
The wizard refused to cast spells vs so lowly an enemy as a flaming dwarven zombie, and the Paladin forgot he could turn undead, so the level 40 fighter unleashed melle Hell on the undead.
It was amazing to watch the level 40 fighter shred the zombies, but the fire shield meant the fighter was taking double the massive damage he was dealing out. This fighter had a bow, but never thought to use it instead of melee, even after he was critically wounded in that melee.
The Thief watched the rear. he was cautious, if not actually planning anything.
No cleric, so the wizard used Wish to heal the fighter.
Next they were ambushed by a shadow dragon that had some nice illusions and shadow spells to make that somewhat effective.
The breath weapon of a 1E shadow dragon halves the level of the victim if they save, quarters it on a failure.
'Wishy the Wizard' lost much of his courage when he realized he dropped from level 53 to level 14 after a failed save.
The Paladin was the one to hang tough, as the 50 percent magic resistance from the holy avenger protected him from the breath weapon.
The best part was when the Paladin killed the dragon it turned to slush, and the player of the wizard said "A simulacrum...but that means...."
Next they had to deal with the real dragon, and everyone but the paladin ended up low level.
The battle was epic fun, and they lived by a thread, with the paladin beating down the dragon with the help of the Thief finally pulling off one epic backstab.
It worked out well, but a party better at planning would have had a much easier time.
I usually let things slide when people shoot the shit at my table. Outside of The Talk (tm) before the game, so as to get everyone on the same page, and The Context (tm) during the game, so as white room theory crafting is as fucking useless as it should be, I have a lot of laxity (in my opinion) about people venting. I vent, why can't they.
However, there does come a point where you gotta ask, "If you fucking hate this system so damn much, why are you still playing it?"
I had to ask myself about d20/3.x/PF at some point. I was obviously not having fun and was so frustrated I couldn't contain it any longer. And then I sat back and realized I'm wasting my time and making other people miserable (though they often protested, genuinely, that my antics were one of the few things that made the sessions bearable. yeah, confused me too,).
Lesson, if you fucking hate it, stop. Your friends will be there for another time. Ideally your bond is greater than one mere construct of rules in a moment of time.
The same applies to GMs you butt heads with, "If you fucking hate how he/she runs games so damn much, why are you still playing with them?"
And there is nothing wrong asking this honestly in the middle of the umpteenth kvetch. Perhaps it will be their wake up call. Perhaps it will confirm their unbearable asshole status. Either way such open honesty clears the air to everyone's advantage.
Quote from: Bill;783052Mmmmm...snowflakes!
Some might enjoy this tale.
At a convention years ago, I ran a 1E dnd one shot adventure where the sign up sheet said "Bring any dnd character you like"
I had guessed most would bring a fairly 'high level' character to such. 12th ish?
So one player brought his 40th+ level fighter, one had a thief of about level 25, and one guy had his beloved level 53 Wizard.
The lowest level character was a Paladin of about level 15. (With a Holy Avenger sword)
The adventure involved the pc's exploring a cave where the local farmers said was a den of evil and their livestock was being poached in the night.
They chose to march into the cave (No planning, no strategy, no investigation)
They blundered into a pack of undead dwarves that were relatively weak compared to the pc's, but had a fireshield effect.
The wizard refused to cast spells vs so lowly an enemy as a flaming dwarven zombie, and the Paladin forgot he could turn undead, so the level 40 fighter unleashed melle Hell on the undead.
It was amazing to watch the level 40 fighter shred the zombies, but the fire shield meant the fighter was taking double the massive damage he was dealing out. This fighter had a bow, but never thought to use it instead of melee, even after he was critically wounded in that melee.
The Thief watched the rear. he was cautious, if not actually planning anything.
No cleric, so the wizard used Wish to heal the fighter.
Next they were ambushed by a shadow dragon that had some nice illusions and shadow spells to make that somewhat effective.
The breath weapon of a 1E shadow dragon halves the level of the victim if they save, quarters it on a failure.
'Wishy the Wizard' lost much of his courage when he realized he dropped from level 53 to level 14 after a failed save.
The Paladin was the one to hang tough, as the 50 percent magic resistance from the holy avenger protected him from the breath weapon.
The best part was when the Paladin killed the dragon it turned to slush, and the player of the wizard said "A simulacrum...but that means...."
Next they had to deal with the real dragon, and everyone but the paladin ended up low level.
The battle was epic fun, and they lived by a thread, with the paladin beating down the dragon with the help of the Thief finally pulling off one epic backstab.
It worked out well, but a party better at planning would have had a much easier time.
I know it is not very important, but havn't paladins access to healing spells and lay of hands for healing purpose in AD&D 1 ?
Quote from: Bill;783052Mmmmm...snowflakes!... /snip
This is precisely my point. I don't give a shit how powerful a power-gamer thinks his/her character is. A GM with experience doesn't need a whole lot of effort to create conflict that will force the PC into being challenged.
Good work btw - Bill!
A tactic I would have used would have been flocks of cloakers. Let the Paladin and Fighter do the work for you - hacking their friends to pieces. Cheap ploy, but effective.
I had a similar experience when a GM dropped out of his slot due to sudden illness at a con. And it was an free-form game, so I filled in because I know the slot had been filled by pre-registers and didn't want to leave them hanging.
So I rolled in and they pulled out all their pet snow-flake characters (mind you - this was the intent of the adventure unbeknownst to me until I arrived) - so I said fuck it, sure let's do this. I whipped out Throne of Bloodstone - they had their 50th lvl characters and were delightfully happy to play them. And I ran the module straight up, no pretense, no need to get tricky - they wiped before getting even through the first third of the module due to party-infighting trying to out-snowflake each other, and not working as a team.
Powergamers are easy to GM once you're a little seasoned in the GM-seat.
Quote from: Ravenswing;783047I'm sure we'd all agree that the preponderance of RPG players -- especially in start-up campaigns where people don't know one another -- gravitate towards obviously combat-powerful characters in leadership roles. Let's be honest -- do up Cap and Logan as rollups in most any supers campaign, file off the serial numbers, and your average gamer would sneer at the pretentious bastard with the hyperbolic name thinking he ought to be party leader just because he dumped a lot of points into Tactics and Reputation. But the cool guy with METAL CLAWS pulling killing attacks? Damn, he's a stud.
This paragraph nicely sums up why I stopped reading mainstream superhero comics in the 1990's, and why I stopped playing superhero RPGs at all until Marvel Heroic.
I'm playing this for different worlds, not to be super awesome, Ace Rimmer ultimately is boring. When I liked comics, it was Weird War Tales, then later Heavy Metal, and certain graphic novels. Troublesome players I will either a) automatically kick or b) try to talk them down. Depends on my mood though.
Quote from: yabaziou;783066I know it is not very important, but havn't paladins access to healing spells and lay of hands for healing purpose in AD&D 1 ?
Yes but the 1e paladin does not get a lot of spells compared to a cleric.
He also would have to have memorized cure spells.
Lay on hands was a bit 'weak' in 1E, at least for purposes of healing a fighter.
Quote from: tenbones;783074This is precisely my point. I don't give a shit how powerful a power-gamer thinks his/her character is. A GM with experience doesn't need a whole lot of effort to create conflict that will force the PC into being challenged.
Good work btw - Bill!
A tactic I would have used would have been flocks of cloakers. Let the Paladin and Fighter do the work for you - hacking their friends to pieces. Cheap ploy, but effective.
I had a similar experience when a GM dropped out of his slot due to sudden illness at a con. And it was an free-form game, so I filled in because I know the slot had been filled by pre-registers and didn't want to leave them hanging.
So I rolled in and they pulled out all their pet snow-flake characters (mind you - this was the intent of the adventure unbeknownst to me until I arrived) - so I said fuck it, sure let's do this. I whipped out Throne of Bloodstone - they had their 50th lvl characters and were delightfully happy to play them. And I ran the module straight up, no pretense, no need to get tricky - they wiped before getting even through the first third of the module due to party-infighting trying to out-snowflake each other, and not working as a team.
Powergamers are easy to GM once you're a little seasoned in the GM-seat.
Bloodstone rules! I got to play in a campaign including those modules and it rocked.
My illusionist survived Orcus but died from Tiamat's poison tail stinger.
Those natural 1's hurt :)
I made it to Orcus with my party barely intact. I was playing a jicked out 15th lvl Kensai/16th lvl Yakuza (yeah... it was sick) and my party was three men down, leaving four of us, all powerhouses to deal with him.
He beat me to initiative and took me out with one hit from that wand.
Quote from: tenbones;783149I made it to Orcus with my party barely intact. I was playing a jicked out 15th lvl Kensai/16th lvl Yakuza (yeah... it was sick) and my party was three men down, leaving four of us, all powerhouses to deal with him.
He beat me to initiative and took me out with one hit from that wand.
1E Orcus has something sweet that makes his wand of death even more insane.
Time Stop.
Quote from: tenbones;783074And I ran the module straight up, no pretense, no need to get tricky - they wiped before getting even through the first third of the module due to party-infighting trying to out-snowflake each other, and not working as a team.
I'd scarcely be surprised. 50th level characters are the product of "I'm So Überrrrr!!!" gaming. Playing well with others isn't a hallmark of that sort, let alone taking a back seat and being a wingman or REMF.
Quote from: daniel_ream;783081This paragraph nicely sums up why I stopped reading mainstream superhero comics in the 1990's, and why I stopped playing superhero RPGs at all until Marvel Heroic.
I don't disagree with your sentiment. I just think that the vast majority of gamers generally -- and not just those playing supers games -- look to the obviously toughest character around for leadership, as opposed to the one whose character sheet states should be the boss. The only exceptions are when certain
players have the confidence of the others, no matter what the sheet says.
I've an anecdote. I was in a startup boffer fantasy LARP once; the premise was that we were all shipwreck survivors, from three different vessels, on an uncharted island. We all needed to turn in a page of background about our characters, and of the forty-some odd players, I was the only one who had any nautical or boatbuilding skills. So, okay: I built me a catboat, and between me and my wife (who did up a tavernkeeper/apothecary, the only examples of both) we soaked up about a third of the minted coinage in the outfit. (Fifteen years down the road, I use them for counters to represent hordes of crunchies in my tabletop games.)
One of the shticks was that my wife's and my characters were part of an ethnic minority, and the dozen or so PCs of that minority decided to start up our own "village" so we could be governed by our own. As such, we needed to pick a leader. And every single face turned to me.
See, we were all from a large LARP. In that group, I was the game's most powerful wizard, and had been for over a dozen years. I was a national leader, the knight-commander of a major order, and besides which I was at least ten years older than anyone else in that circle. They were
used to me being in a leadership position.
Except I didn't want to be. I'd deliberately rolled up a schmuck peasant sailor so I could get away from it, because let me tell you, running a sixty person nation in a LARP with 35 events a year is a damn headache. And so I started to sputter: why, you, sir, you're a noble! And you, ma'am, you're a knight! Me, giving orders to you? The very idea! No sir, no sirree.
Quote from: tenbones;782959I should note so people understand I'm not a dick
I don't see why anyone would think your response to armour dude was dickish. Sounds pretty legit to me.
Quote from: Bill;783052It worked out well, but a party better at planning would have had a much easier time.
They'd obviously made up their characters on the spot, rather than taking them from 1st level.
One of the benefits of the level system is that it gives you time to learn, to develop tactics and teamwork. You lose a few characters and many more combats, and you get better. If you just write up a 99th level drowlesbianstripperninja, you won't be as effective as even a 5th level fighter someone dragged up from 1st.
Playing well, whether thespily or hacking, is a skill.
Quote from: Ravenswing;783357 I just think that the vast majority of gamers generally -- and not just those playing supers games -- look to the obviously toughest character around for leadership, as opposed to the one whose character sheet states should be the boss.
It's been my experience that this is true in games based mostly on combat, but that's 90% of traditional RPGs, so.
Quote from: Ravenswing;783357I just think that the vast majority of gamers generally -- and not just those playing supers games -- look to the obviously toughest character around for leadership, as opposed to the one whose character sheet states should be the boss. The only exceptions are when certain players have the confidence of the others, no matter what the sheet says.
As a dissenting voice, my experience is the reverse of yours. The vast majority of gamers I've seen look for a leader based on player skills and traits, not based on character skills and traits. However, if and when they are going to look for a leader based on the character, then who leads is based on character leadership traits not character combat ability.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;783541They'd obviously made up their characters on the spot, rather than taking them from 1st level.
One of the benefits of the level system is that it gives you time to learn, to develop tactics and teamwork. You lose a few characters and many more combats, and you get better. If you just write up a 99th level drowlesbianstripperninja, you won't be as effective as even a 5th level fighter someone dragged up from 1st.
Playing well, whether thespily or hacking, is a skill.
I guess when you are a level 53 Wizard, or a 99th level drowlesbianstripperninja; you don't do teamwork.